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Re: Not quite on topic, but I need an answer. How do you deal with fanboys?

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  • crimsonlotus20
    Just my random thoughts, but, the way I understand it, futanari is a sort of highly graphic sublimation of male desire through the transposition of the female
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 5, 2008
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      Just my random thoughts, but, the way I understand it, futanari is a
      sort of highly graphic sublimation of male desire through the
      transposition of the female experience in lesbian sex with the crucial
      adjunct of a penis so that the male reader can mentally correlate the
      images he is enjoying with a familiar sensation. Conversely, even its
      most graphic forms, yuri, strict speaking, ought to make reference to
      elements of the female sexual experience without having to resort to
      'masculinising' them to such an extent that they are immediately
      intelligible to a male reader. These are, of course, crude
      generalisations, but, on the whole, futanari is effectively
      heterosexual sex (correct if this is an oversimplification) which
      makes leverage on certain elements of lesbian erotica, though
      subordinating them to a male experience. Conversely yuri, at least in
      theory, ought to be faithful to a distinctly female (though not
      necessarily feminine) approach.

      Futanari is, in a sense, the male equivalent of penis envy: the
      glorification of an idealised female form (complete with breasts)
      which still possesses that vital element of masculinity (the penis),
      creating a comfortable 'interzone' in which constructs of masculinity
      are not seriously challenged, but wherein the conceptualisation of a
      separate erotic universe is feasible. So, to make a long story short,
      futanari is not IMHO yuri by any stretch of the imagination (though,
      arguably, it reflects some elements of those lesbian sub-cultures
      which endorse the use of phallic surrogates). Much like shotacon or
      yaoi, it is a distinct genre and really involves the simple
      transposition of a familiar erotic experience into another genderised
      or trans-genderised form. Nothing more and nothing less.

      My very best regards,

      MdG

      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Joy Bordador <haruka173@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi all.
      >
      > I don't claim to be the world's greatest and/or most knowledgeable
      yuri fan, but right now, please tell me if this is right or wrong.
      >
      > Some male fanboy over at one of the forae I help moderate keeps
      pushing that futanari is the same as yuri. I keep trying to tell him
      that futanari = shemale (though the politically correct term may be
      either transsexual or hermaphrodite), yuri = lesbian. I've consulted
      the somewhat-reliable Wikipedia on this and it says, essentially:
      >
      > Futanari (¤G¦¨, ¤G§Î; Ç\ÇFÇQÇq; a compound word meaning "two form"
      in Japanese) can mean ... hermaphrodites, intersex or other
      individuals with female body-types and sexual organs resembling
      penises, whether or not those organs are in fact enlarged
      clitorises,or they possess both male and female reproductive organs.
      Technically,the term also encompasses male characters with both sets
      of sexualorgans, but these are usually excluded. Other common terms
      used to describe futanari characters are "dickgirls" or "shemales",
      although these are often considered vulgar. Futanari, along with
      "newhalf", are more polite terms having come into recent use, with
      futanaritending to refer specifically to actual hermaphrodites and
      "newhalf"tending to refer specifically to characters with female
      bodies but onlymale genitals.
      >
      > Yuri (¦Ê¦X, Yuri?) ... is a Japanese jargon term for content
      involving love between women in anime, manga, and related Japanese
      media.[4] Yuri can focus either on the sexual or the emotional aspects
      of the relationship, the latter sometimes being called shˆtjo-ai by
      western fans.[5]
      >
      >
      >
      > As we can see from the definitions above, futanari doesn't always
      equate to yuri. Unfortunately, the fanboy is a bit of a brat, and for
      the longest time I've known him he insists on having his way. I'm
      getting quite tired of getting him to distinguish between the two,
      especially because the said forum I moderate is child-friendly and
      should stay worksafe. The administrator is a bit lenient and has asked
      me not to nominate the kid for banning (I don't have actual powers for
      wielding the banstick, alas) but in as much as I am a yuri fan, I
      think this has gone on quite far enough. The forae actually switched
      board providers from Invisionfree to vBulletin, and back when it was
      in Invisionfree we suspended his membership for the exact same reason,
      but as he promised the admin he'd play nicely - and because I've only
      been made mod recently - he got away with opening a yuri fandom thread.
      >
      > Thanks in advance for any and all advice y'all may hold.
      >
      >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
      >
    • gilksm
      Nor do I claim to be such a expert, but I will weigh in regardless. Such a thing as funtanari is at best stepping on the line. Though, I would argue that the
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 5, 2008
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        Nor do I claim to be such a expert, but I will weigh in regardless.
        Such a thing as funtanari is at best stepping on the line. Though, I
        would argue that the emotional aspect of yuri is half of it at least,
        while funtanari would have to exclusively be pornographic in nature,
        as I am unaware of another way to explicate the fact that such a
        character's genitals. Not that porn can't be yuri, under a loose
        definition, but do you really count the almost always present degree
        of lesbianism in male porn to be lesbian at all? The women are almost
        always clearly straight. I may be splitting hairs, but I would argue
        against something has being yuri at all if there are males as a focal
        point of the sexual encounter. Two women making out to turn some guy
        on I wouldn't call lesbian, as they are doing so to turn the guy on.
        A women with a dick, is no different in my opinion, the focal point
        is male, whether in full presence or merely male sex organs.

        So those are my objections, to reiterate and refine: I wouldn't call
        straight women having sex for male pleasure yuri. I understand that
        yuri can mean purely sexual interaction, without any emotional,
        though I think generally when someone is refering to yuri, they mean
        elements of both, as I would call the purely sexual aspect simply
        porn, and purely the emotional aspect, to be shoujo-ai (where I would
        including any loving relationships between women, including
        completely nonsexual, relative, or friend love) but I peronsally
        reserve yuri, to mean something that has elements of both. Other
        people may not make these destinctions however. I wouldn't call
        sexual situations between a women, and a person with a women's body,
        and male genitals to be yuri either.

        That is my two cents.




        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Joy Bordador <haruka173@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all.
        >
        > I don't claim to be the world's greatest and/or most knowledgeable
        yuri fan, but right now, please tell me if this is right or wrong.
        >
        > Some male fanboy over at one of the forae I help moderate keeps
        pushing that futanari is the same as yuri. I keep trying to tell him
        that futanari = shemale (though the politically correct term may be
        either transsexual or hermaphrodite), yuri = lesbian. I've consulted
        the somewhat-reliable Wikipedia on this and it says, essentially:
        >
        > Futanari (¤G¦¨, ¤G§Î; Ç\ÇFÇQÇq; a compound word meaning "two form"
        in Japanese) can mean ... hermaphrodites, intersex or other
        individuals with female body-types and sexual organs resembling
        penises, whether or not those organs are in fact enlarged
        clitorises,or they possess both male and female reproductive organs.
        Technically,the term also encompasses male characters with both sets
        of sexualorgans, but these are usually excluded. Other common terms
        used to describe futanari characters are "dickgirls" or "shemales",
        although these are often considered vulgar. Futanari, along
        with "newhalf", are more polite terms having come into recent use,
        with futanaritending to refer specifically to actual hermaphrodites
        and "newhalf"tending to refer specifically to characters with female
        bodies but onlymale genitals.
        >
        > Yuri (¦Ê¦X, Yuri?) ... is a Japanese jargon term for content
        involving love between women in anime, manga, and related Japanese
        media.[4] Yuri can focus either on the sexual or the emotional
        aspects of the relationship, the latter sometimes being called shˆtjo-
        ai by western fans.[5]
        >
        >
        >
        > As we can see from the definitions above, futanari doesn't always
        equate to yuri. Unfortunately, the fanboy is a bit of a brat, and for
        the longest time I've known him he insists on having his way. I'm
        getting quite tired of getting him to distinguish between the two,
        especially because the said forum I moderate is child-friendly and
        should stay worksafe. The administrator is a bit lenient and has
        asked me not to nominate the kid for banning (I don't have actual
        powers for wielding the banstick, alas) but in as much as I am a yuri
        fan, I think this has gone on quite far enough. The forae actually
        switched board providers from Invisionfree to vBulletin, and back
        when it was in Invisionfree we suspended his membership for the exact
        same reason, but as he promised the admin he'd play nicely - and
        because I've only been made mod recently - he got away with opening a
        yuri fandom thread.
        >
        > Thanks in advance for any and all advice y'all may hold.
        >
        >
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        ______________
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        >
      • gilksm
        I ll also add that I don t think I was the only one that didn t consider Kashimashi to be yuri, though I would sooner call that yuri than futanari. As at least
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 5, 2008
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          I'll also add that I don't think I was the only one that didn't
          consider Kashimashi to be yuri, though I would sooner call that yuri
          than futanari. As at least the transexual male character didn't have a
          dick (anymore).

          I'd argue that transgender situations are a whole other animal all
          together, and should be seperated and treated as such. straight, gay,
          transgender. I would argue are all distinct and seperate things.
        • Chalcahuite
          ... ... Well, if we re talking about LFBs, there are two options for you. Ignore and ignore. ;) You could have every scholar and several anime
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 5, 2008
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            On Mar 5, 2008, at 10:04 AM, Joy Bordador wrote:

            >
            > Hi all.
            >
            > I don't claim to be the world's greatest and/or most knowledgeable
            > yuri fan, but right now, please tell me if this is right or wrong.
            <snip>
            >
            > As we can see from the definitions above, futanari doesn't always
            > equate to yuri. Unfortunately, the fanboy is a bit of a brat, <snip>
            >
            > Thanks in advance for any and all advice y'all may hold.


            Well, if we're talking about LFBs, there are two options for you.
            Ignore and ignore. ;) You could have every scholar and several anime
            directors/producers, and mangaka talk themselves blue in the face
            about the differences between Yuri and Futanari and you still
            wouldn't be able to convince him otherwise or just as likely he's
            continuing to insist there's no difference because you're reacting to
            it, and he enjoys goading you. (Trolling, in other words.) A third
            option that just came to me would be to start your own thread, and if
            you wanted have your admins merge them.

            Oh, and not that it's an authority on anything, but if we're talking
            about LFBs, 4chan, the second home for LFBs, has /u/ which is for
            yuri only, and /d/ which was originally for "dickgirls" but is now
            really just a repository for "alternative hentai" meaning all weird
            and disturbing fetishes that are not guro. Post futanari material in /
            u/ and they'll gently inform you of your error and point you to /d/
            and vice versa. ;) For those of you not familiar with 4chan the
            "gently inform" was very heavy sarcasm.

            As for personally, I'm not sure how or if futanari equates to real
            transgenderism at all, (my gut says probably just as much as BL/yaoi
            equates to gay), but I think Erica posited a while back that there
            were essentially two types of futanari characters: men with breasts
            and women with dicks. The former being much more common than the
            latter probably for the reasons MdG alluded to earlier, or it may
            simply be a case of mangaka and doujinka falling back on standard
            male behavior, because they won't or can't conceive otherwise.
            Futanari is a pretty standard fetish in my experience [I'm not an
            expert, just a pervert. ;)], so it wouldn't surprise me at all to
            discover that it's appeal for many is that it's not gay, meaning it's
            an outlet for straight men, or some lesbians now that I think about
            it, to fantasize about dicks without questioning their sexual
            identity. I'm pretty sure Dan Savage of Savage Love said something
            similar in one of his columns a while back, but I don't feel like
            looking it up right now. ;)
            (I should note that I'm generally presuming hentai here, since I
            don't recall any instance of futanari in any mainstream manga or
            anime outside of Go Nagai. Oh, also, I'm sticking with hentai rather
            than porn since futanari and yuri are more culturally specific. )
            Anyway in the instance of the latter type of character, I could
            probably say, because I'm an inclusive sort of person, that a woman
            with a dick futanari character could have a yuri relationship with a
            non-futanari woman character, because it would be two women in a
            presumably emotional and/or physical relationship, regardless that
            one of them has an extra appendage. A narrower definition, however,
            would exclude our woman with dick futanari because of her dick, which
            seems to be the prevailing opinion.
            Here is where we could segue into a discussion of definitions and the
            fluidity of language or transgenderism, but I'll let others pick
            those up, since I've already wasted enough work time on this. ;)

            -==-
            Serge
            "Visually Impressive!" -- Precocious Curmudgeon
            http://ximatl.blogspot.com
            http://albikal.blogspot.com
          • Erica Friedman
            ... Serge beat me to it. Don t feed a troll. Any attention, positive or negative is attention. The only way to get it to stop eating the goats is make them
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 5, 2008
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              > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              > From: ximatl@...
              > Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 16:00:56 -0500
              > Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Not quite on topic, but I need an answer. How do you deal with fanboys?
              >

              > Well, if we're talking about LFBs, there are two options for you.
              > Ignore and ignore. ;)

              Serge beat me to it.

              Don't feed a troll. Any attention, positive or negative is attention. The only way to get it to stop eating the goats is make them walk another path and cross a different bridge. (Was that metaphor too silly? Sorry if it was.)


              You could have every scholar and several anime
              > directors/producers, and mangaka talk themselves blue in the face
              > about the differences between Yuri and Futanari and you still
              > wouldn't be able to convince him otherwise or just as likely he's
              > continuing to insist there's no difference because you're reacting to
              > it, and he enjoys goading you. (Trolling, in other words.) A third
              > option that just came to me would be to start your own thread, and if
              > you wanted have your admins merge them.


              Ayup. It puts me in mind of two situations I know of in which the artist/author her/himself *specifically* answered a question and the fans still didn't believe it.


              > As for personally, I'm not sure how or if futanari equates to real
              > transgenderism at all, (my gut says probably just as much as BL/yaoi
              > equates to gay), but I think Erica posited a while back that there
              > were essentially two types of futanari characters: men with breasts
              > and women with dicks.

              Beat me again. You're hired as my recycled conversation go-to person.

              And I agree - futanari and "transgenderism" are not terribly closely related. It's far closer to that brand of straight, married, guy who wears his wife's dresses and underwear and thinks he looks like a woman. It's very common, I'm told, and I've certainly met several folks who do it.


              The former being much more common than the
              > latter probably for the reasons MdG alluded to earlier, or it may
              > simply be a case of mangaka and doujinka falling back on standard
              > male behavior, because they won't or can't conceive otherwise.
              > Futanari is a pretty standard fetish in my experience [I'm not an
              > expert, just a pervert. ;)], so it wouldn't surprise me at all to
              > discover that it's appeal for many is that it's not gay, meaning it's
              > an outlet for straight men, or some lesbians now that I think about
              > it, to fantasize about dicks without questioning their sexual
              > identity.

              I like this, saying "yes, I agree" and adding nothing to the conversation.



              > (I should note that I'm generally presuming hentai here, since I
              > don't recall any instance of futanari in any mainstream manga or
              > anime outside of Go Nagai. Oh, also, I'm sticking with hentai rather
              > than porn since futanari and yuri are more culturally specific. )


              I know of a few futanari that are adult, but not hentai. "Purple" and "Chimera" leap to mind. The former is a girl with a penis and the second is a man with breasts. In nether case is the issue of gender any more than a plot complication. (Much like Kashimashi, in which the gender change is the big handwave to set up a Yuri romance triangle.) In none of those cases is the protagonist truly transgendered, in the sense that they desire to become the other gender, or to transgress gender for their own purposes, but gender transgression does occur, for the entertainment and possibly the tittilation of the audience.



              > Anyway in the instance of the latter type of character, I could
              > probably say, because I'm an inclusive sort of person, that a woman
              > with a dick futanari character could have a yuri relationship with a
              > non-futanari woman character, because it would be two women in a
              > presumably emotional and/or physical relationship, regardless that
              > one of them has an extra appendage. A narrower definition, however,
              > would exclude our woman with dick futanari because of her dick, which
              > seems to be the prevailing opinion.

              I'm of the former opinion, but I'm always out of step with the majority. At least I'm consistent. I had a few Hot Tails comics a zillion years ago (Rica took them, now that I think about it) in which the characters were *clearly* females with penises and they had lots of fun with those things. I liked it because despite their 80's music video fashion sense they were happy hermaphrodites and enjoyed their fun uncomplicatedly. No tears, no non-consensual sex. I would not call those Yuri, by any stretch, but they were cute enough.

              > Here is where we could segue into a discussion of definitions and the
              > fluidity of language or transgenderism, but I'll let others pick
              > those up, since I've already wasted enough work time on this. ;)

              Hah, beat you to it! LOL


              Cheers,

              Erica

              Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
              http://www.yuricon.org
              Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

              "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
              The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com

              _________________________________________________________________
              Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix".
              http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
            • Resop
              ... I would disagree, but my opinion would mean nothing to a male fan boy. And, although this parable is unlikely to make him think, it might be good for a
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 5, 2008
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                --- Joy Bordador <haruka173@...> wrote:

                > Hi all.
                >
                > I don't claim to be the world's greatest and/or most knowledgeable yuri fan,
                > but right now, please tell me if this is right or wrong.
                >
                > Some male fanboy over at one of the forae I help moderate keeps pushing that
                > futanari is the same as yuri.

                I would disagree, but my opinion would mean nothing to a male fan boy.

                And, although this parable is unlikely to make him think, it might be good for
                a laugh:

                You're reading a doujinshi that features a relationship between two futanari.
                One is a tachi (butch) and the other is a neko (femme). However, the neko is
                taller. Who wears the pants in the relationship, and why?

                If he says that the neko wears the pants because it would look wrong for the
                taller person to be bossed around by the shorter person, then he's equating
                their relationship with yaoi, so a futanari and a girl wouldn't be yuri.

                If he says that the neko wears the pants because the tachi is overcompensating
                and girly girls rule, then maybe in his mind futanari and a girl would be yuri.

                Craig
              • Joy Bordador
                Wow, I did NOT expect so many replies... @_@ Sorry for the delay, work has been terrible and I hadn t gotten around to thoroughly reading the discussion till
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 13, 2008
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                  Wow, I did NOT expect so many replies... @_@

                  Sorry for the delay, work has been terrible and I hadn't gotten around to thoroughly reading the discussion till today.

                  First off, thank you SO much for your advice and your very enlightening discussion! I realize that I was wrong to assume that "enlarged appendage in the pubic region = penis" in the first place, and I never considered. Thanks for coming up with myriads of definitions and citing numerous examples which confuddle, provoke (serious) thought, make me giggle and ultimately help me lose some of my bitchiness. Like I already said, I don't claim to be the greatest or most knowledgeable yuri fan so I really appreciate everyone's efforts in helping me spot the difference on whether an anime/manga/piece of fiction in general is yuri or not. :) Again, thank you!

                  (Craig, your story in particular is a genius, I will post this on the forum I'm in and let you know what he thinks. XD)

                  Finally, thanks too for suggesting moderating measures which really helped me not go bust a gut on the kid. Though, if he posts a NSFW/NC-17 link again (which we told him to specifically not do), I just might. XD; We're not really feeding him (I was told to just monitor his moves and NOT do anything on the thread), he just stubbornly keeps on posting links when he thinks the thread is dying, when in reality a lot of us aren't in total agreement with his "examples" of yuri (which would simply be women, who are otherwise straight, making out with a male leering in the audience, and Bible Black which is always not child-friendly). The sod doesn't seem to consider romantic, non-sexual, mutually-inclusive relationships between women as "yuri" I'm afraid. But you're right, since he's being stubborn there's really not much I can do anyhow...


                  ~ Joy/Haruka




                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Resop <resop2@...>
                  To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2008 9:03:12 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Not quite on topic, but I need an answer. How do you deal with fanboys?


                  --- Joy Bordador <haruka173@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  > Hi all.
                  >
                  > I don't claim to be the world's greatest and/or most knowledgeable yuri fan,
                  > but right now, please tell me if this is right or wrong.
                  >
                  > Some male fanboy over at one of the forae I help moderate keeps pushing that
                  > futanari is the same as yuri.

                  I would disagree, but my opinion would mean nothing to a male fan boy.

                  And, although this parable is unlikely to make him think, it might be good for
                  a laugh:

                  You're reading a doujinshi that features a relationship between two futanari.
                  One is a tachi (butch) and the other is a neko (femme). However, the neko is
                  taller. Who wears the pants in the relationship, and why?

                  If he says that the neko wears the pants because it would look wrong for the
                  taller person to be bossed around by the shorter person, then he's equating
                  their relationship with yaoi, so a futanari and a girl wouldn't be yuri.

                  If he says that the neko wears the pants because the tachi is overcompensating
                  and girly girls rule, then maybe in his mind futanari and a girl would be yuri.

                  Craig




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