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Re: New Lililicious Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot

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  • crimsonlotus20
    ... I am rather familiar with yaoi and, yes, the glowing cone makes sense - I was only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink seemed to be blocking out
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 9, 2007
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      > That was a legally required self-censoring method. Much like the
      >relic that pubic hair and nipples were not allowed to be drawn in
      >for characters under 18 in hentai anime. You'll find that most
      >erotic - as opposed to porn - publications have that kind of thing.
      >In BL/Yaoi, you get the "glowing cone" effect which essentially is
      >the same thing.

      I am rather familiar with yaoi and, yes, the 'glowing cone' makes
      sense - I was only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink
      seemed to be blocking out nothing in particular. The level of genital
      detail was minimal, so I am at loss as to what they were trying to
      censor. Having said that, most of my experience with erotic manga has
      been very recent and, if I remember correctly, the manga in question
      was from 1998 so things could well have changed.

      > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high art.

      I know...but: pornography or erotica? I wasn't quite sure from what
      angle I could tackle this one (my inexperience showing again).

      > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own. Granted,
      >she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other than that,
      >it was her choice.

      I was not alluding to "compulsion" in the unsavoury sense of the
      term, but more like being made to perform what is, effectively, a
      virtual sex act with a person who - as the main character herself
      points out - has no emotional value. It certainly sounds like a soul-
      draining sort of occupation and, as far as I know, being "pissed of
      at a guy" is not an especially valid pretext for entering into the
      porn industry.


      >I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this story.
      >Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently included
      >a woman having been put off men by a bad experiencefinding
      >redemption in a lesbian love affair.

      I agree. But let me play devil's advocate. In my line of studies
      (literature/literary criticism) there is a general understanding that
      nothing happens by chance. In other words, everything is there
      because there is a conscious/subconscious structural reason for it
      existing. I merely try to give trash (or fluff) an alternative spin.
      Nowadays, even 'pop art' is being analysed through a scholarly lens
      and some would argue that the distinction between high/low art is
      artificial or elitist. While I do not necessarily agree with that
      assessment, it is increasingly trendy in the critical establishment
      to pick at the most popular, as opposed to most intellectually
      significant, elements in a given culture.

      As for "redemption", there is something vaguely salvific in the
      juxtaposition between artificial sex and 'real', emotionally involved
      intimacy in the manga. But I think that fits very well into
      conventional lesbian tropes in contemporary popular art in Japan.
      The "sempai" or active figure frequently has an almost spiritual
      dimension to her leadership, though this is made much more obvious
      elsewhere.

      Regards,
      MdG






      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com> From: crimsonlotus@...> Date: Fri, 9
      Nov 2007 09:11:10 +0000> Subject: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious
      Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot> > I read "Lay
      Soft Kisses Upon my Eyelids" and...besides the rather > nonsensical
      slashes of black ink that seem to pop up intermittently in > intimate
      scenes,
      >
      > That was a legally required self-censoring method. Much like the
      relic that pubic hair and nipples were not allowed to be drawn in for
      characters under 18 in hentai anime. You'll find that most erotic -
      as opposed to porn - publications have that kind of thing. In
      BL/Yaoi, you get the "glowing cone" effect which essentially is the
      same thing.
      >
      >
      > it was actually a reasonably decent erotic manga. As > ususual, my
      compliments to the translation staff who have done a good > jojob
      with the dialogue. I did find the porn star premise a little >
      prurient,
      >
      > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high art.
      >
      >
      > but, in the end, I thought it worked: unsubtle as it was, it > did
      give a fairly concrete reason for which the two should end up >
      together. Though, unless she were already so disposed by choice
      and/or > nature, I find it somewhat difficult to believe -
      psychologically at > least - that Misato would find solace in love
      with another woman when > she has been compelled to simulate lesbian
      sex for the benefit of the > camera. But, that's just me being
      cynical.
      >
      > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own. Granted,
      she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other than that,
      it was her choice.
      >
      > Whilke I've enjoyed reading your over-thinkings into trash this
      past week, I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this
      story. Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently
      included a woman having been put off men by a bad experiencefinding
      redemption in a lesbian love affair. In fact, I was just asked for a
      summation of the storytelling progression this past weekend. Here it
      is:
      >
      > "It started off with a lot more threesomes that included men, or
      lesbian makes straight women enjoy sex, so she can return to her
      husband, that kind of thing. As it went on, there was a definite
      switch to lesbian makes straight woman enjoy lesbian sex, and there
      are a few stories here and there that include a man. Towards the
      end, there was more women in relationships and the drama was a
      female rival or something else (like being outed.) Some few stories
      are simply woman meets woman, they fall in love, the end and fewer
      two women are just in love, the end. By the later ones, men are
      universally hopeless, violent and/or selfish, unless they are gay
      and we all get married and live happily as a foursome."
      >
      > As I said - this is not high art. :-)
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Erica
      >
      > Hungry For Yuri? Have Some Okazu!
      > http://okazu.blogspot.com
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at
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    • Erica Friedman
      ... Those blotches are probably meant to represent moments of excstasy and other blotchy sorts of things. I thought you were referring to the black censor
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 9, 2007
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        > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        > From: crimsonlotus@...
        > Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:29:29 +0000
        > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot

        >
        > I am rather familiar with yaoi and, yes, the 'glowing cone' makes
        > sense - I was only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink
        > seemed to be blocking out nothing in particular. The level of genital
        > detail was minimal, so I am at loss as to what they were trying to
        > censor. Having said that, most of my experience with erotic manga has
        > been very recent and, if I remember correctly, the manga in question
        > was from 1998 so things could well have changed.
         
        Those blotches are probably meant to represent moments of excstasy and other blotchy sorts of things. I thought you were referring to the black censor bars.

        >
        > > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high art.
        >
        > I know...but: pornography or erotica? I wasn't quite sure from what
        > angle I could tackle this one (my inexperience showing again).
         
        There is no one answer to that. One person's erotica is another person's porn. Those words are, like every other word in every other language, subjective. Quick - define "love" in a way that everyone everwhere will agree with. :-)
         
        By *my* definition. Mist is erotica. My definition is this:
         
        Porn implicitly or explicily acknowledges the existence of a third-party viewer for whose titillation  the scene is being conducted. Erotica is any story where the chharacters appear to be acting for themseleves.
         
        That's my definition and not subject to change, until I change my mind about things. But I'm not asking anyone else to use it. :-)

        >
        > > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own. Granted,
        > >she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other than that,
        > >it was her choice.
        >
        > I was not alluding to "compulsion" in the unsavoury sense of the
        > term, but more like being made to perform what is, effectively, a
        > virtual sex act with a person who - as the main character herself
        > points out - has no emotional value. It certainly sounds like a soul-
        > draining sort of occupation and, as far as I know, being "pissed of
        > at a guy" is not an especially valid pretext for entering into the
        > porn industry.
         
        Working in advertising is no less soul sucking (I know from personal experience.) You wouldn't call a person who takes a job at an advertising agency compelled to sell their soul. Aside from the sexual aspect, and assuming there's no actual coercion or compulsion - it's just a job.
         

        > >I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this story.
        > >Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently included
        > >a woman having been put off men by a bad experiencefinding
        > >redemption in a lesbian love affair.
        >
        > I agree. But let me play devil's advocate. In my line of studies
        > (literature/literary criticism) there is a general understanding that
        > nothing happens by chance. In other words, everything is there
        > because there is a conscious/subconscious structural reason for it
        > existing. I merely try to give trash (or fluff) an alternative spin.
         
         
        Speaking as an ex-comp. lit major who ocassionally write trash for fun - sometimes trash is just trash. Because the author wanted to write trash. (Or in this cash, was being paid to do so.) Nothing happening by chance is not the same thing, IMHO, as things being meaningful. It is not chance that I read Cream lemon Escalation and came up with a fanfic idea. But neither is it meaningful on any level. :-)

        > Nowadays, even 'pop art' is being analysed through a scholarly lens
        > and some would argue that the distinction between high/low art is
        > artificial or elitist. While I do not necessarily agree with that
        > assessment, it is increasingly trendy in the critical establishment
        > to pick at the most popular, as opposed to most intellectually
        > significant, elements in a given culture.
         
        I do agree that the distinction between low and high art is elitist. I also admit to being both elitist and insistent that my personal distinctions are personal. :-)
         
        You're just never going to get people to agree on *anything* when it comes to abstracts like love, erotica or art. The problem with literary or artistic criticism is that it is as subject to zeitgeist as anything else, and the need for critics as humans to assign specific, deterministic and absolute values to any piece makes it all sort of silly to me. lol 
         
        Nothing is ever "always or never." It's erotica to me, and fun, well-drawn trash. It's potentially porn, or art to you. There are no definitive definitions, so how does one even frame the question in a way that a responsible dialogue can be held?
         
        I think it makes more sense to point out the specific tropes of the stories, rather try to analyse the deeper motivation of the characters. In Mist the *main* trope is that an apparently straight woman becomes involved in a lesbian relationship and finds happiness. The motivation, as it were, was definied, not by the author, but by a combination of editorial command, audience requirement, trends of the time, and possibly, greater socio-political atmosphere. Understand these will bring a deeper understanding, I think, that wondering why a particular character made a particular choice - especially when that is the same exact choice made by any dozens of apparently straight characters in Mist stories.

        > As for "redemption", there is something vaguely salvific in the
        > juxtaposition between artificial sex and 'real', emotionally involved
        > intimacy in the manga. But I think that fits very well into
        > conventional lesbian tropes in contemporary popular art in Japan.
        > The "sempai" or active figure frequently has an almost spiritual
        > dimension to her leadership, though this is made much more obvious
        > elsewhere.
         
        In some cases, yes. In many others, not. "Sempai" are just those who have come before. For better or worse, everyone has a sempai in all walks of life - the person at work who shows you around is a sempai. Assigning a spiritual aspect to *every* sempai/kouhai relationship seems excessive. :-) Especially when you remember that manga is not a reflection of life, but a neutral space in which things that cannot be discussed or done in public are acted out.
         

        Cheers,

        Erica

        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
        http://www.yuricon.org
        Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
        The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com



         
         


        Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try now!
      • crimsonlotus20
        On the whole, I fully agree with you: especially your definition of the boundary between erotica/pornography, though I would hasten to add that erotica
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 9, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          On the whole, I fully agree with you: especially your definition of
          the boundary between erotica/pornography, though I would hasten to
          add that erotica contextualises the act whereas pornography abstracts
          its and reproduces it for its own sake.

          One the subject of not taking things too seriously: you're absolutely
          right. This is one of my greatest vices, but, as all vices, it does
          have an enjoyable element to it. Suffice it to say that I know what
          you mean when you suggest taking trash for what it is and nothing
          more. I myself, as a writer of a large repertoire of tongue-in-cheek
          erotica, write trash (in spectacular quantities) and enjoy
          reading/watching it and attributing disproportionate symbolic
          relevance to that which probably does not deserve it.

          One thing in particular you mentioned, however, stood out for me:

          >Especially when you remember that manga is not a reflection of life,
          >but a neutral space in which things that cannot be discussed or done
          >in public are acted out.

          This reminded me a lot of my comment about Strawberry Panic!
          representing a hyper-reality. While I am certain you meant it in a
          different context, there is this sense that magna is the physical
          manifestation of unfulfilled/unfulfillable desires. Escapism in
          images. But, then again, others would argue that everything is -
          somehow - a reflection of life. We cannot be abstracted from our life-
          experience and personal-social functions, so, no matter how fanciful,
          everything is an interpretation of life.

          In a purely post-modernist sense: manga cannot be an 'empty space'
          because this would suggest a space that is cognitively independent
          from experience and society. The language, aesthetic and narrative
          structure of manga are all embedded in social conventions and - even
          when it seeks to be subversive - it utlises the language and tropes
          of that which it seeks to subvert.

          But enough sophistry for now - I suppose we could all go to our
          favourite posturing anime for plenty of that (I am something of
          an 'Ergo Proxy' fan - dense and pretentious, much like my writing
          =)). I shall have to learn to take trash less seriously - for my own
          sanity and the patience of those on this mailing list. Apologies if I
          ever go OTT.

          Regards,
          MdG

          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com> From: crimsonlotus@...> Date: Fri, 9
          Nov 2007 15:29:29 +0000> Subject: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious
          Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot> > I am rather
          familiar with yaoi and, yes, the 'glowing cone' makes > sense - I was
          only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink > seemed to be
          blocking out nothing in particular. The level of genital > detail was
          minimal, so I am at loss as to what they were trying to > censor.
          Having said that, most of my experience with erotic manga has > been
          very recent and, if I remember correctly, the manga in question > was
          from 1998 so things could well have changed.
          >
          > Those blotches are probably meant to represent moments of excstasy
          and other blotchy sorts of things. I thought you were referring to
          the black censor bars.
          > > > > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high
          art.> > I know...but: pornography or erotica? I wasn't quite sure
          from what > angle I could tackle this one (my inexperience showing
          again).
          >
          > There is no one answer to that. One person's erotica is another
          person's porn. Those words are, like every other word in every other
          language, subjective. Quick - define "love" in a way that everyone
          everwhere will agree with. :-)
          >
          > By *my* definition. Mist is erotica. My definition is this:
          >
          > Porn implicitly or explicily acknowledges the existence of a third-
          party viewer for whose titillation the scene is being conducted.
          Erotica is any story where the chharacters appear to be acting for
          themseleves.
          >
          > That's my definition and not subject to change, until I change my
          mind about things. But I'm not asking anyone else to use it. :-)
          > > > > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own.
          Granted, > >she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other
          than that, > >it was her choice.> > I was not alluding
          to "compulsion" in the unsavoury sense of the > term, but more like
          being made to perform what is, effectively, a > virtual sex act with
          a person who - as the main character herself > points out - has no
          emotional value. It certainly sounds like a soul-> draining sort of
          occupation and, as far as I know, being "pissed of > at a guy" is not
          an especially valid pretext for entering into the > porn industry.
          >
          > Working in advertising is no less soul sucking (I know from
          personal experience.) You wouldn't call a person who takes a job at
          an advertising agency compelled to sell their soul. Aside from the
          sexual aspect, and assuming there's no actual coercion or compulsion -
          it's just a job.
          >
          > > >I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this story.
          > >Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently
          included > >a woman having been put off men by a bad
          experiencefinding > >redemption in a lesbian love affair.> > I agree.
          But let me play devil's advocate. In my line of studies >
          (literature/literary criticism) there is a general understanding that
          > nothing happens by chance. In other words, everything is there >
          because there is a conscious/subconscious structural reason for it >
          existing. I merely try to give trash (or fluff) an alternative spin.
          >
          >
          > Speaking as an ex-comp. lit major who ocassionally write trash for
          fun - sometimes trash is just trash. Because the author wanted to
          write trash. (Or in this cash, was being paid to do so.) Nothing
          happening by chance is not the same thing, IMHO, as things being
          meaningful. It is not chance that I read Cream lemon Escalation and
          came up with a fanfic idea. But neither is it meaningful on any
          level. :-)
          > > Nowadays, even 'pop art' is being analysed through a scholarly
          lens > and some would argue that the distinction between high/low art
          is > artificial or elitist. While I do not necessarily agree with
          that > assessment, it is increasingly trendy in the critical
          establishment > to pick at the most popular, as opposed to most
          intellectually > significant, elements in a given culture.
          >
          > I do agree that the distinction between low and high art is
          elitist. I also admit to being both elitist and insistent that my
          personal distinctions are personal. :-)
          >
          > You're just never going to get people to agree on *anything* when
          it comes to abstracts like love, erotica or art. The problem with
          literary or artistic criticism is that it is as subject to zeitgeist
          as anything else, and the need for critics as humans to assign
          specific, deterministic and absolute values to any piece makes it all
          sort of silly to me. lol
          >
          > Nothing is ever "always or never." It's erotica to me, and fun,
          well-drawn trash. It's potentially porn, or art to you. There are no
          definitive definitions, so how does one even frame the question in a
          way that a responsible dialogue can be held?
          >
          > I think it makes more sense to point out the specific tropes of the
          stories, rather try to analyse the deeper motivation of the
          characters. In Mist the *main* trope is that an apparently straight
          woman becomes involved in a lesbian relationship and finds happiness.
          The motivation, as it were, was definied, not by the author, but by a
          combination of editorial command, audience requirement, trends of the
          time, and possibly, greater socio-political atmosphere. Understand
          these will bring a deeper understanding, I think, that wondering why
          a particular character made a particular choice - especially when
          that is the same exact choice made by any dozens of apparently
          straight characters in Mist stories.
          > > As for "redemption", there is something vaguely salvific in the >
          juxtaposition between artificial sex and 'real', emotionally involved
          > intimacy in the manga. But I think that fits very well into >
          conventional lesbian tropes in contemporary popular art in Japan. >
          The "sempai" or active figure frequently has an almost spiritual >
          dimension to her leadership, though this is made much more obvious >
          elsewhere.
          >
          > In some cases, yes. In many others, not. "Sempai" are just those
          who have come before. For better or worse, everyone has a sempai in
          all walks of life - the person at work who shows you around is a
          sempai. Assigning a spiritual aspect to *every* sempai/kouhai
          relationship seems excessive. :-) Especially when you remember that
          manga is not a reflection of life, but a neutral space in which
          things that cannot be discussed or done in public are acted out.
          >
          > Cheers,EricaYuricon - "For real women who like their
          women...animated."http://www.yuricon.orgHungry for Yuri? Have some
          Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com"World Shaking" Fanfic -
          http://www.worldshaking.netThe Fanfic Revolution -
          fanficrevolution.blogspot.com
          >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live
          OneCare!
          > http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?
          s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
          >
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