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RE: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot

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  • Erica Friedman
    ... That was a legally required self-censoring method. Much like the relic that pubic hair and nipples were not allowed to be drawn in for characters under 18
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 9, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      > From: crimsonlotus@...
      > Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:11:10 +0000
      > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot
      >
      > I read "Lay Soft Kisses Upon my Eyelids" and...besides the rather
      > nonsensical slashes of black ink that seem to pop up intermittently in
      > intimate scenes,
       
      That was a legally required self-censoring method. Much like the relic that pubic hair and nipples were not allowed to be drawn in for characters under 18 in hentai anime. You'll find that most erotic - as opposed to porn - publications have that kind of thing. In BL/Yaoi, you get the "glowing cone" effect which essentially is the same thing.
       
       
       it was actually a reasonably decent erotic manga. As
      > ususual, my compliments to the translation staff who have done a good
      > jojob with the dialogue. I did find the porn star premise a little
      > prurient,
       
      ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high art.
       
       
      but, in the end, I thought it worked: unsubtle as it was, it
      > did give a fairly concrete reason for which the two should end up
      > together. Though, unless she were already so disposed by choice and/or
      > nature, I find it somewhat difficult to believe - psychologically at
      > least - that Misato would find solace in love with another woman when
      > she has been compelled to simulate lesbian sex for the benefit of the
      > camera. But, that's just me being cynical.
       
      She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own. Granted, she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other than that, it was her choice.
       
      Whilke I've enjoyed reading your over-thinkings into trash this past week, I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this story. Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently included a woman having been put off men by a bad experiencefinding redemption in a lesbian love affair. In fact, I was just asked for a summation of the storytelling progression this past weekend. Here it is:
       
      "It started off with a lot more threesomes that included men, or 
      lesbian makes straight women enjoy sex, so she can return to her 
      husband, that kind of thing. As it went on, there was a definite 
      switch to lesbian makes straight woman enjoy lesbian sex, and there 
      are a few stories here and there that include a man. Towards the 
      end, there was more women in relationships and the drama was a 
      female rival or something else (like being outed.) Some few stories are simply woman 
      meets woman, they fall in love, the end and fewer two women are 
      just in love, the end. By the later ones, men are universally 
      hopeless, violent and/or selfish, unless they are gay and we all 
      get married and live happily as a foursome."
       
      As I said - this is not high art. :-)
       
      Cheers,
       
      Erica
       
      Hungry For Yuri? Have Some Okazu!
      http://okazu.blogspot.com


      Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now!
    • crimsonlotus20
      ... I am rather familiar with yaoi and, yes, the glowing cone makes sense - I was only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink seemed to be blocking out
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 9, 2007
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        > That was a legally required self-censoring method. Much like the
        >relic that pubic hair and nipples were not allowed to be drawn in
        >for characters under 18 in hentai anime. You'll find that most
        >erotic - as opposed to porn - publications have that kind of thing.
        >In BL/Yaoi, you get the "glowing cone" effect which essentially is
        >the same thing.

        I am rather familiar with yaoi and, yes, the 'glowing cone' makes
        sense - I was only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink
        seemed to be blocking out nothing in particular. The level of genital
        detail was minimal, so I am at loss as to what they were trying to
        censor. Having said that, most of my experience with erotic manga has
        been very recent and, if I remember correctly, the manga in question
        was from 1998 so things could well have changed.

        > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high art.

        I know...but: pornography or erotica? I wasn't quite sure from what
        angle I could tackle this one (my inexperience showing again).

        > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own. Granted,
        >she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other than that,
        >it was her choice.

        I was not alluding to "compulsion" in the unsavoury sense of the
        term, but more like being made to perform what is, effectively, a
        virtual sex act with a person who - as the main character herself
        points out - has no emotional value. It certainly sounds like a soul-
        draining sort of occupation and, as far as I know, being "pissed of
        at a guy" is not an especially valid pretext for entering into the
        porn industry.


        >I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this story.
        >Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently included
        >a woman having been put off men by a bad experiencefinding
        >redemption in a lesbian love affair.

        I agree. But let me play devil's advocate. In my line of studies
        (literature/literary criticism) there is a general understanding that
        nothing happens by chance. In other words, everything is there
        because there is a conscious/subconscious structural reason for it
        existing. I merely try to give trash (or fluff) an alternative spin.
        Nowadays, even 'pop art' is being analysed through a scholarly lens
        and some would argue that the distinction between high/low art is
        artificial or elitist. While I do not necessarily agree with that
        assessment, it is increasingly trendy in the critical establishment
        to pick at the most popular, as opposed to most intellectually
        significant, elements in a given culture.

        As for "redemption", there is something vaguely salvific in the
        juxtaposition between artificial sex and 'real', emotionally involved
        intimacy in the manga. But I think that fits very well into
        conventional lesbian tropes in contemporary popular art in Japan.
        The "sempai" or active figure frequently has an almost spiritual
        dimension to her leadership, though this is made much more obvious
        elsewhere.

        Regards,
        MdG






        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com> From: crimsonlotus@...> Date: Fri, 9
        Nov 2007 09:11:10 +0000> Subject: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious
        Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot> > I read "Lay
        Soft Kisses Upon my Eyelids" and...besides the rather > nonsensical
        slashes of black ink that seem to pop up intermittently in > intimate
        scenes,
        >
        > That was a legally required self-censoring method. Much like the
        relic that pubic hair and nipples were not allowed to be drawn in for
        characters under 18 in hentai anime. You'll find that most erotic -
        as opposed to porn - publications have that kind of thing. In
        BL/Yaoi, you get the "glowing cone" effect which essentially is the
        same thing.
        >
        >
        > it was actually a reasonably decent erotic manga. As > ususual, my
        compliments to the translation staff who have done a good > jojob
        with the dialogue. I did find the porn star premise a little >
        prurient,
        >
        > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high art.
        >
        >
        > but, in the end, I thought it worked: unsubtle as it was, it > did
        give a fairly concrete reason for which the two should end up >
        together. Though, unless she were already so disposed by choice
        and/or > nature, I find it somewhat difficult to believe -
        psychologically at > least - that Misato would find solace in love
        with another woman when > she has been compelled to simulate lesbian
        sex for the benefit of the > camera. But, that's just me being
        cynical.
        >
        > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own. Granted,
        she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other than that,
        it was her choice.
        >
        > Whilke I've enjoyed reading your over-thinkings into trash this
        past week, I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this
        story. Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently
        included a woman having been put off men by a bad experiencefinding
        redemption in a lesbian love affair. In fact, I was just asked for a
        summation of the storytelling progression this past weekend. Here it
        is:
        >
        > "It started off with a lot more threesomes that included men, or
        lesbian makes straight women enjoy sex, so she can return to her
        husband, that kind of thing. As it went on, there was a definite
        switch to lesbian makes straight woman enjoy lesbian sex, and there
        are a few stories here and there that include a man. Towards the
        end, there was more women in relationships and the drama was a
        female rival or something else (like being outed.) Some few stories
        are simply woman meets woman, they fall in love, the end and fewer
        two women are just in love, the end. By the later ones, men are
        universally hopeless, violent and/or selfish, unless they are gay
        and we all get married and live happily as a foursome."
        >
        > As I said - this is not high art. :-)
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > Erica
        >
        > Hungry For Yuri? Have Some Okazu!
        > http://okazu.blogspot.com
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at
        last.  Get it now.
        > http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?
        pid=CL100626971033
        >
      • Erica Friedman
        ... Those blotches are probably meant to represent moments of excstasy and other blotchy sorts of things. I thought you were referring to the black censor
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 9, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          > From: crimsonlotus@...
          > Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:29:29 +0000
          > Subject: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot

          >
          > I am rather familiar with yaoi and, yes, the 'glowing cone' makes
          > sense - I was only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink
          > seemed to be blocking out nothing in particular. The level of genital
          > detail was minimal, so I am at loss as to what they were trying to
          > censor. Having said that, most of my experience with erotic manga has
          > been very recent and, if I remember correctly, the manga in question
          > was from 1998 so things could well have changed.
           
          Those blotches are probably meant to represent moments of excstasy and other blotchy sorts of things. I thought you were referring to the black censor bars.

          >
          > > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high art.
          >
          > I know...but: pornography or erotica? I wasn't quite sure from what
          > angle I could tackle this one (my inexperience showing again).
           
          There is no one answer to that. One person's erotica is another person's porn. Those words are, like every other word in every other language, subjective. Quick - define "love" in a way that everyone everwhere will agree with. :-)
           
          By *my* definition. Mist is erotica. My definition is this:
           
          Porn implicitly or explicily acknowledges the existence of a third-party viewer for whose titillation  the scene is being conducted. Erotica is any story where the chharacters appear to be acting for themseleves.
           
          That's my definition and not subject to change, until I change my mind about things. But I'm not asking anyone else to use it. :-)

          >
          > > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own. Granted,
          > >she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other than that,
          > >it was her choice.
          >
          > I was not alluding to "compulsion" in the unsavoury sense of the
          > term, but more like being made to perform what is, effectively, a
          > virtual sex act with a person who - as the main character herself
          > points out - has no emotional value. It certainly sounds like a soul-
          > draining sort of occupation and, as far as I know, being "pissed of
          > at a guy" is not an especially valid pretext for entering into the
          > porn industry.
           
          Working in advertising is no less soul sucking (I know from personal experience.) You wouldn't call a person who takes a job at an advertising agency compelled to sell their soul. Aside from the sexual aspect, and assuming there's no actual coercion or compulsion - it's just a job.
           

          > >I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this story.
          > >Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently included
          > >a woman having been put off men by a bad experiencefinding
          > >redemption in a lesbian love affair.
          >
          > I agree. But let me play devil's advocate. In my line of studies
          > (literature/literary criticism) there is a general understanding that
          > nothing happens by chance. In other words, everything is there
          > because there is a conscious/subconscious structural reason for it
          > existing. I merely try to give trash (or fluff) an alternative spin.
           
           
          Speaking as an ex-comp. lit major who ocassionally write trash for fun - sometimes trash is just trash. Because the author wanted to write trash. (Or in this cash, was being paid to do so.) Nothing happening by chance is not the same thing, IMHO, as things being meaningful. It is not chance that I read Cream lemon Escalation and came up with a fanfic idea. But neither is it meaningful on any level. :-)

          > Nowadays, even 'pop art' is being analysed through a scholarly lens
          > and some would argue that the distinction between high/low art is
          > artificial or elitist. While I do not necessarily agree with that
          > assessment, it is increasingly trendy in the critical establishment
          > to pick at the most popular, as opposed to most intellectually
          > significant, elements in a given culture.
           
          I do agree that the distinction between low and high art is elitist. I also admit to being both elitist and insistent that my personal distinctions are personal. :-)
           
          You're just never going to get people to agree on *anything* when it comes to abstracts like love, erotica or art. The problem with literary or artistic criticism is that it is as subject to zeitgeist as anything else, and the need for critics as humans to assign specific, deterministic and absolute values to any piece makes it all sort of silly to me. lol 
           
          Nothing is ever "always or never." It's erotica to me, and fun, well-drawn trash. It's potentially porn, or art to you. There are no definitive definitions, so how does one even frame the question in a way that a responsible dialogue can be held?
           
          I think it makes more sense to point out the specific tropes of the stories, rather try to analyse the deeper motivation of the characters. In Mist the *main* trope is that an apparently straight woman becomes involved in a lesbian relationship and finds happiness. The motivation, as it were, was definied, not by the author, but by a combination of editorial command, audience requirement, trends of the time, and possibly, greater socio-political atmosphere. Understand these will bring a deeper understanding, I think, that wondering why a particular character made a particular choice - especially when that is the same exact choice made by any dozens of apparently straight characters in Mist stories.

          > As for "redemption", there is something vaguely salvific in the
          > juxtaposition between artificial sex and 'real', emotionally involved
          > intimacy in the manga. But I think that fits very well into
          > conventional lesbian tropes in contemporary popular art in Japan.
          > The "sempai" or active figure frequently has an almost spiritual
          > dimension to her leadership, though this is made much more obvious
          > elsewhere.
           
          In some cases, yes. In many others, not. "Sempai" are just those who have come before. For better or worse, everyone has a sempai in all walks of life - the person at work who shows you around is a sempai. Assigning a spiritual aspect to *every* sempai/kouhai relationship seems excessive. :-) Especially when you remember that manga is not a reflection of life, but a neutral space in which things that cannot be discussed or done in public are acted out.
           

          Cheers,

          Erica

          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
          http://www.yuricon.org
          Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
          The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com



           
           


          Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try now!
        • crimsonlotus20
          On the whole, I fully agree with you: especially your definition of the boundary between erotica/pornography, though I would hasten to add that erotica
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 9, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            On the whole, I fully agree with you: especially your definition of
            the boundary between erotica/pornography, though I would hasten to
            add that erotica contextualises the act whereas pornography abstracts
            its and reproduces it for its own sake.

            One the subject of not taking things too seriously: you're absolutely
            right. This is one of my greatest vices, but, as all vices, it does
            have an enjoyable element to it. Suffice it to say that I know what
            you mean when you suggest taking trash for what it is and nothing
            more. I myself, as a writer of a large repertoire of tongue-in-cheek
            erotica, write trash (in spectacular quantities) and enjoy
            reading/watching it and attributing disproportionate symbolic
            relevance to that which probably does not deserve it.

            One thing in particular you mentioned, however, stood out for me:

            >Especially when you remember that manga is not a reflection of life,
            >but a neutral space in which things that cannot be discussed or done
            >in public are acted out.

            This reminded me a lot of my comment about Strawberry Panic!
            representing a hyper-reality. While I am certain you meant it in a
            different context, there is this sense that magna is the physical
            manifestation of unfulfilled/unfulfillable desires. Escapism in
            images. But, then again, others would argue that everything is -
            somehow - a reflection of life. We cannot be abstracted from our life-
            experience and personal-social functions, so, no matter how fanciful,
            everything is an interpretation of life.

            In a purely post-modernist sense: manga cannot be an 'empty space'
            because this would suggest a space that is cognitively independent
            from experience and society. The language, aesthetic and narrative
            structure of manga are all embedded in social conventions and - even
            when it seeks to be subversive - it utlises the language and tropes
            of that which it seeks to subvert.

            But enough sophistry for now - I suppose we could all go to our
            favourite posturing anime for plenty of that (I am something of
            an 'Ergo Proxy' fan - dense and pretentious, much like my writing
            =)). I shall have to learn to take trash less seriously - for my own
            sanity and the patience of those on this mailing list. Apologies if I
            ever go OTT.

            Regards,
            MdG

            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > > To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com> From: crimsonlotus@...> Date: Fri, 9
            Nov 2007 15:29:29 +0000> Subject: [Yuricon] Re: New Lililicious
            Releases - Yuri Hime 2 one-shot and Mist 3/98 one-shot> > I am rather
            familiar with yaoi and, yes, the 'glowing cone' makes > sense - I was
            only thrown by the fact that the splotches of ink > seemed to be
            blocking out nothing in particular. The level of genital > detail was
            minimal, so I am at loss as to what they were trying to > censor.
            Having said that, most of my experience with erotic manga has > been
            very recent and, if I remember correctly, the manga in question > was
            from 1998 so things could well have changed.
            >
            > Those blotches are probably meant to represent moments of excstasy
            and other blotchy sorts of things. I thought you were referring to
            the black censor bars.
            > > > > ...You know this is a porn magazine, right? lol It's not high
            art.> > I know...but: pornography or erotica? I wasn't quite sure
            from what > angle I could tackle this one (my inexperience showing
            again).
            >
            > There is no one answer to that. One person's erotica is another
            person's porn. Those words are, like every other word in every other
            language, subjective. Quick - define "love" in a way that everyone
            everwhere will agree with. :-)
            >
            > By *my* definition. Mist is erotica. My definition is this:
            >
            > Porn implicitly or explicily acknowledges the existence of a third-
            party viewer for whose titillation the scene is being conducted.
            Erotica is any story where the chharacters appear to be acting for
            themseleves.
            >
            > That's my definition and not subject to change, until I change my
            mind about things. But I'm not asking anyone else to use it. :-)
            > > > > She was never "compelled." She took the job on her own.
            Granted, > >she took it because she was pissed of at a guy, but other
            than that, > >it was her choice.> > I was not alluding
            to "compulsion" in the unsavoury sense of the > term, but more like
            being made to perform what is, effectively, a > virtual sex act with
            a person who - as the main character herself > points out - has no
            emotional value. It certainly sounds like a soul-> draining sort of
            occupation and, as far as I know, being "pissed of > at a guy" is not
            an especially valid pretext for entering into the > porn industry.
            >
            > Working in advertising is no less soul sucking (I know from
            personal experience.) You wouldn't call a person who takes a job at
            an advertising agency compelled to sell their soul. Aside from the
            sexual aspect, and assuming there's no actual coercion or compulsion -
            it's just a job.
            >
            > > >I think you're working WAY too hard to make sense of this story.
            > >Mist was a "ladies comics" magazine. The stories frequently
            included > >a woman having been put off men by a bad
            experiencefinding > >redemption in a lesbian love affair.> > I agree.
            But let me play devil's advocate. In my line of studies >
            (literature/literary criticism) there is a general understanding that
            > nothing happens by chance. In other words, everything is there >
            because there is a conscious/subconscious structural reason for it >
            existing. I merely try to give trash (or fluff) an alternative spin.
            >
            >
            > Speaking as an ex-comp. lit major who ocassionally write trash for
            fun - sometimes trash is just trash. Because the author wanted to
            write trash. (Or in this cash, was being paid to do so.) Nothing
            happening by chance is not the same thing, IMHO, as things being
            meaningful. It is not chance that I read Cream lemon Escalation and
            came up with a fanfic idea. But neither is it meaningful on any
            level. :-)
            > > Nowadays, even 'pop art' is being analysed through a scholarly
            lens > and some would argue that the distinction between high/low art
            is > artificial or elitist. While I do not necessarily agree with
            that > assessment, it is increasingly trendy in the critical
            establishment > to pick at the most popular, as opposed to most
            intellectually > significant, elements in a given culture.
            >
            > I do agree that the distinction between low and high art is
            elitist. I also admit to being both elitist and insistent that my
            personal distinctions are personal. :-)
            >
            > You're just never going to get people to agree on *anything* when
            it comes to abstracts like love, erotica or art. The problem with
            literary or artistic criticism is that it is as subject to zeitgeist
            as anything else, and the need for critics as humans to assign
            specific, deterministic and absolute values to any piece makes it all
            sort of silly to me. lol
            >
            > Nothing is ever "always or never." It's erotica to me, and fun,
            well-drawn trash. It's potentially porn, or art to you. There are no
            definitive definitions, so how does one even frame the question in a
            way that a responsible dialogue can be held?
            >
            > I think it makes more sense to point out the specific tropes of the
            stories, rather try to analyse the deeper motivation of the
            characters. In Mist the *main* trope is that an apparently straight
            woman becomes involved in a lesbian relationship and finds happiness.
            The motivation, as it were, was definied, not by the author, but by a
            combination of editorial command, audience requirement, trends of the
            time, and possibly, greater socio-political atmosphere. Understand
            these will bring a deeper understanding, I think, that wondering why
            a particular character made a particular choice - especially when
            that is the same exact choice made by any dozens of apparently
            straight characters in Mist stories.
            > > As for "redemption", there is something vaguely salvific in the >
            juxtaposition between artificial sex and 'real', emotionally involved
            > intimacy in the manga. But I think that fits very well into >
            conventional lesbian tropes in contemporary popular art in Japan. >
            The "sempai" or active figure frequently has an almost spiritual >
            dimension to her leadership, though this is made much more obvious >
            elsewhere.
            >
            > In some cases, yes. In many others, not. "Sempai" are just those
            who have come before. For better or worse, everyone has a sempai in
            all walks of life - the person at work who shows you around is a
            sempai. Assigning a spiritual aspect to *every* sempai/kouhai
            relationship seems excessive. :-) Especially when you remember that
            manga is not a reflection of life, but a neutral space in which
            things that cannot be discussed or done in public are acted out.
            >
            > Cheers,EricaYuricon - "For real women who like their
            women...animated."http://www.yuricon.orgHungry for Yuri? Have some
            Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com"World Shaking" Fanfic -
            http://www.worldshaking.netThe Fanfic Revolution -
            fanficrevolution.blogspot.com
            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live
            OneCare!
            > http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?
            s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
            >
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