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Re: The real meaning Of Yuri/Shoujo ai

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  • kyouka_mitzrugi
    How do you do. I am a Japanese living in Japan. English may not be good. If anything, it means pedophilia when they say Shoujo-ai(­—ˆ¤) in Japan. Yuri
    Message 1 of 22 , May 29, 2007
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      How do you do.

      I am a Japanese living in Japan. English may not be good.

      If anything, it means pedophilia when they say Shoujo-ai(­—ˆ¤) in
      Japan.

      Yuri had a sexual meaning mainly. However, there is an impression to
      be said to be mental after Marimite in particular. A lily comes to
      show a general idea to be known as "S"uƒGƒXv.

      "Girls love" is surely used a lot now in Japan. An item of a yuri
      is "Girls love" by Japanese edition Wikipedia.
      Most Japanese will not know that "girllove" shows pedophilia in
      English adversely.

      They are not sensitive to a meaning of words so that there is much
      Japanese English in Japan.


      By an opinion of I individual, Kasi Masi is not yuri. Some Japanese
      will agree, too.
      Because mind of a chief character is because there is it as a boy. It
      is important how mentally in Japan.
      Therefore I think that Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru is nearer to yuri.
    • Freddy J.
      ... list ... My bad I must have read it at work and forgot. GOMEN and Arigato
      Message 2 of 22 , May 29, 2007
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Freddy J." <flatbushpapi@> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > On May 29, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Freddy J. wrote:
        > >
        > > Thanks for that informative explaination. i probably wasn't in
        > group
        > > or didn't read artile on shoujo ai ands its western orgin. Thanks
        >
        > I wrote that history of the word *today* Freddy. You were on the
        list
        > today.
        >
        > ...for god's sake.
        >
        >
        > Erica (who is steaming slightly)
        >
        My bad I must have read it at work and forgot. GOMEN and Arigato
      • Adam Jones
        On Wed, 30 May 2007 02:54:59 -0000 ... So a boy cross-dressing as a girl is more yuri than a boy who s been genetically and physically transformed into a girl?
        Message 3 of 22 , May 29, 2007
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          On Wed, 30 May 2007 02:54:59 -0000
          "kyouka_mitzrugi" <kyouka_mitz@...> wrote:

          > By an opinion of I individual, Kasi Masi is not yuri. Some Japanese
          > will agree, too. Because mind of a chief character is because there
          > is it as a boy. It is important how mentally in Japan.
          > Therefore I think that Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru is nearer to yuri.

          So a boy cross-dressing as a girl is more yuri than a boy who's been
          genetically and physically transformed into a girl? Strange... :)
          --
          Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
          .oO("lokal uthyres" )
          PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
        • Anna Haapaniemi
          ... I don t think it is especially stange that I boy that wants to and feels he is/should be a girl is counted more as a girl than a boy that, regardless of
          Message 4 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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            Re: [Yuricon] Re: The real meaning Of Yuri/Shoujo ai
            On Wed, 30 May 2007 02:54:59 -0000
            "kyouka_mitzrugi" <kyouka_mitz@...> wrote:

            > By an opinion of I individual, Kasi Masi is not yuri. Some Japanese
            > will agree, too. Because mind of a chief character is because there
            > is it as a boy. It is important how mentally in Japan.
            > Therefore I think that Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru is nearer to yuri.

            So a boy cross-dressing as a girl is more yuri than a boy who's been
            genetically and physically transformed into a girl? Strange... :)


            I don't think it is especially stange that I boy that wants to and feels he is/should be a girl is counted more as a girl than a boy that, regardless of what he wanted/felt, had his body turned into that of a girl.
            I think a person with the mind of a girl but the body of a boy is more girl than one with the mind of a boy but body of a girl. But I guess it depends on if you think the mind or the body of a person is most important...^^
            And Kyouka said that the mental counts for more in Japan, and therefor she sees OwBnK as more yuri than Kashimashi.
            :)
            ^
            //Anna
          • BlackSkaven
            ... umm - didn t Mizuho attend the girls school because his father wanted him to do so? In Kashimashi we have a - girlish
            Message 5 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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              Anna Haapaniemi wrote:

              > I don't think it is especially stange that I boy that wants to and feels
              > he is/should be a girl is counted more as a girl than a boy that,
              > regardless of what he wanted/felt, had his body turned into that of a girl.

              umm - didn't Mizuho attend the girls school because his father wanted
              him to do so?
              In Kashimashi we have a -> girlish <- boy who turns into a girl.
              This isn't as simple as it sounds ...

              BlackSkaven
            • BlackSkaven
              ... This makes me wonder what Shounen-ai really stands for in Japan ... BlackSkaven
              Message 6 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                kyouka_mitzrugi wrote:

                > If anything, it means pedophilia when they say Shoujo-ai(�­�—ˆ¤) in
                > Japan.

                This makes me wonder what Shounen-ai really stands for in Japan ...

                BlackSkaven
              • Adam Jones
                ... I was reading it more as a comparison between a boy who was cross-dressing out of an obligation to his family and an already vaguely transgendered (or at
                Message 7 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                  On 30-May-2007 20:19 +0900, Anna Haapaniemi wrote:

                  > > So a boy cross-dressing as a girl is more yuri than a boy who's been
                  > > genetically and physically transformed into a girl? Strange... :)
                  >
                  > I don't think it is especially stange that I boy that wants to and feels he
                  > is/should be a girl is counted more as a girl than a boy that, regardless of
                  > what he wanted/felt, had his body turned into that of a girl.

                  I was reading it more as a comparison between a boy who was
                  cross-dressing out of an obligation to his family and an already vaguely
                  transgendered (or at least ambiguously-gendered) boy who was quite
                  content to have been made entirely female.

                  Then again, I carefully avoided watching OtoBoku, so I may well have
                  made incorrect assumptions about its main character.
                  --
                  Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
                  .oO("and then maybe a sixth grader's spelling and grammer book..." )
                  PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
                • Anna Haapaniemi
                  ... Well, I have not seen OtoBoku/OwBnK either, and all I knew about was what I guessed from Kyoukas post. Maybe I shouldn t have made assumptions. From what
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                    >On 30-May-2007 20:19 +0900, Anna Haapaniemi wrote:
                    >
                    >> > So a boy cross-dressing as a girl is more yuri than a boy who's been
                    >> > genetically and physically transformed into a girl? Strange... :)
                    >>
                    >> I don't think it is especially stange that I boy that wants to and feels he
                    >> is/should be a girl is counted more as a girl than a boy that, regardless of
                    >> what he wanted/felt, had his body turned into that of a girl.
                    >
                    >I was reading it more as a comparison between a boy who was
                    >cross-dressing out of an obligation to his family and an already vaguely
                    >transgendered (or at least ambiguously-gendered) boy who was quite
                    >content to have been made entirely female.
                    >
                    >Then again, I carefully avoided watching OtoBoku, so I may well have
                    >made incorrect assumptions about its main character.


                    Well, I have not seen OtoBoku/OwBnK either, and all I knew about was
                    what I guessed from Kyoukas post. Maybe I shouldn't have made
                    assumptions. From what she said I took it as if the maincharacter was
                    transgendered, but had not gotten through a operation or anything but
                    really felt that he was a girl. Maybe that is not so.
                    Kashimashi how ever, I have seen, and while Hazumu was, as a boy too
                    what some would call "girlish" (but I think mostly just not so
                    typically "manly"), and while he seems pretty comfortable as a girl,
                    he had no wish to become one, and even seems to see himself as a boy
                    in some senses (like he think it's normal for him to like girls
                    (don't take me wrong, it's not "abnormal" too be gay, but he does
                    seems to think of himself as straight, or, well, ay leas non-gay,
                    when he likes girls)). But that might just be my interpretention too.

                    //Anna

                    ((I don't know, but I have the feeling my english was strange in this
                    mail. is that so? If so, I'm sorry...;P))
                  • kyouka_mitzrugi
                    A point that girls appearing in Otoboku are in love with him after having thought that Mizuho is a woman thinks me to be yuri. Takako in particular was so. The
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                      A point that girls appearing in Otoboku are in love with him after
                      having thought that Mizuho is a woman thinks me to be yuri. Takako in
                      particular was so.

                      The body does a character of Kashimashi between women, but I do not
                      feel of yuri in their being in love on a premise that each other is man
                      and woman.
                    • Ellen Kuhfeld
                      We need a decent heuristic to judge the yuri-ness of shows where one or more of the apparent women/girls has an XY background. I d be inclined to count
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                        We need a decent heuristic to judge the yuri-ness of shows where one or more of the apparent women/girls has an XY background. I'd be inclined to count Kashimashi and Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru (subject to modification if a second season happens) as yuri. Ranma 1/2 is definitely not, no matter what form Ranma is in at the time. And I say I, My, Me, Strawberry Eggs is yuri, but I've had people disagree with me.
                         
                        Princess Princess is a bucket of worms in this regard, capable of putting any heuristics or theories to the test. But don't forget to check into Megumi's background (Day of Revolution) before you make a definitive statement.
                         
                        It's not like this subject doesn't come up very often in anime.
                         
                        Ellen Rose
                         
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Yuricon@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Adam Jones
                        Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:22 AM
                        To: yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: The real meaning Of Yuri/Shoujo ai

                        On Wed, 30 May 2007 02:54:59 -0000
                        "kyouka_mitzrugi" <kyouka_mitz@ ybb.ne.jp> wrote:

                        > By an opinion of I individual, Kasi Masi is not yuri. Some Japanese
                        > will agree, too. Because mind of a chief character is because there
                        > is it as a boy. It is important how mentally in Japan.
                        > Therefore I think that Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru is nearer to yuri.

                        So a boy cross-dressing as a girl is more yuri than a boy who's been
                        genetically and physically transformed into a girl? Strange... :)
                        --
                        Adam Jones (adam@yggdrasl. demon.co. uk)(http://www.yggdrasl .demon.co. uk/)
                        .oO("lokal uthyres" )
                        PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl .demon.co. uk/pubkey. asc

                      • Erica Friedman
                        From: kyouka_mitzrugi ... Hi Kyouka-san, thank you for your comments! I agree with this. If a girl falls in love with a person *she*
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                          From: "kyouka_mitzrugi" <kyouka_mitz@...>
                          >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: The real meaning Of Yuri/Shoujo ai
                          >Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 13:31:11 -0000
                          >
                          >A point that girls appearing in Otoboku are in love with him after
                          >having thought that Mizuho is a woman thinks me to be yuri. Takako in
                          >particular was so.

                          Hi Kyouka-san, thank you for your comments!

                          I agree with this. If a girl falls in love with a person *she* perceives to
                          be a girl, we can call it yuri.

                          I Me My Strawberry Eggs is like this. The main character falls in love with
                          a teacher she thinks is a woman.


                          >
                          >The body does a character of Kashimashi between women, but I do not
                          >feel of yuri in their being in love on a premise that each other is man
                          >and woman.

                          There are many people here who see Hazumu as a woman born in a man's body
                          and that the aliens "fixed" him by putter her into the body she should have
                          had. :-)

                          I don't think Hazumu is better as a girl or boy. In that way I think the the
                          story is just about love between people, rather than love between man and
                          woman or woman and woman.

                          Cheers,

                          Erica

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          PC Magazine�s 2007 editors� choice for best Web mail�award-winning Windows
                          Live Hotmail.
                          http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
                        • Erica Friedman
                          ... Boy Love as in NAMBLA kind of Boy Love. Exactly as you sd expect. One more of the gazillion reasons I don t use shoujoai. Erica Yuricon - For real women
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                            >From: BlackSkaven <BlackSkaven@...>
                            >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: The real meaning Of Yuri/Shoujo ai
                            >Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 14:00:57 +0200
                            >
                            >kyouka_mitzrugi wrote:
                            >
                            > > If anything, it means pedophilia when they say Shoujo-ai(������) in
                            > > Japan.
                            >
                            >This makes me wonder what Shounen-ai really stands for in Japan ...


                            "Boy Love" as in NAMBLA kind of Boy Love. Exactly as you'sd expect.

                            One more of the gazillion reasons I don't use shoujoai.


                            Erica

                            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                            http://www.yuricon.org
                            Hiungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu: http://okazu.blogspot.com

                            "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                            The Fanfic Revolution - fanficrevolution.blogspot.com

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            PC Magazine�s 2007 editors� choice for best Web mail�award-winning Windows
                            Live Hotmail.
                            http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
                          • Susan Davis
                            ... Huh? Mizuho is a boy who crossdresses situationally, and just happens to get along well with female friends... but is still mentally very much a boy.
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                              "kyouka_mitzrugi" <kyouka_mitz@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > By an opinion of I individual, Kasi Masi is not yuri. Some Japanese
                              > will agree, too. Because mind of a chief character is because
                              > there is it as a boy. It is important how mentally in Japan.
                              > Therefore I think that Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru is nearer to
                              > yuri.

                              Huh? Mizuho is a boy who crossdresses situationally, and just happens
                              to get along well with female friends... but is still mentally very
                              much a boy. Hazumu, by contrast, attracts all sorts of comments about
                              how feminine he is before the UFO crash, not to mention all sorts of
                              fan speculation about whether Hazumu had GID. She is completely happy
                              being a girl afterwards, and never mentions a single word about
                              wanting to be turned back, despite having Sora and Jan-Puu *living
                              with her* and easily available to pester on that point.

                              More to the point, Yasuna can see Hazumu with her yuri-vision before
                              the crash.

                              I agree that mental criteria should count for more... but that argues
                              strongly in favour of Kashimashi being more yuri than Otoboku.

                              --
                              Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                            • Elizabeth
                              ... An excellent post, if I may just comment. I couldn t agree more with it. And yes, I count Kashimashi and strawberry eggs as yuri too regardless of what the
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 30, 2007
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                                >We need a decent heuristic to judge the yuri-ness of shows where one
                                >or more of the apparent women/girls has an XY background. I'd be
                                >inclined to count Kashimashi and Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru (subject
                                >to modification if a second season happens) as yuri. Ranma 1/2 is
                                >definitely not, no matter what form Ranma is in at the time. And I
                                >say I, My, Me, Strawberry Eggs is yuri, but I've had people disagree
                                >with me.

                                An excellent post, if I may just comment. I couldn't agree more with
                                it. And yes, I count Kashimashi and strawberry eggs as yuri too
                                regardless of what the masses might say.
                              • kyouka_mitzrugi
                                It is recognition of girls gathering around a chief character that is important. Most of girls surrounding Mizuho do not know that he is a man in Otoboku. They
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 31, 2007
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                                  It is recognition of girls gathering around a chief character that is
                                  important.

                                  Most of girls surrounding Mizuho do not know that he is a man in
                                  Otoboku. They love a woman while being a woman:They think so.
                                  Therefore Takako does a tangle in oneself loving a woman.

                                  Girls surrounding Hazumu know that she was a man in Kashimashi. The
                                  feelings to like their Hazumu were already ready before Hazumu became a
                                  woman. iHazumu was surely girlish boyj
                                  Therefore I think that I do not change with heterosexuality.
                                • Susan Davis
                                  ... Ah! That makes sense. Now, in the Kashimashi case, it could be argued that Yasuna (and to a lesser extent Tomari) really did see Hazumu as a girl, her
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 31, 2007
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                                    "kyouka_mitzrugi" <kyouka_mitz@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > It is recognition of girls gathering around a chief character that is
                                    > important.

                                    Ah! That makes sense.

                                    Now, in the Kashimashi case, it could be argued that Yasuna (and to a
                                    lesser extent Tomari) really did see Hazumu as a girl, her past
                                    notwithstanding. At the very least, they knew she was one *now*, and
                                    was neither able nor motivated to go back at any forseeable point.

                                    --
                                    Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                                  • Ellen Kuhfeld
                                    ... her past notwithstanding ? When Yasuna could see Hazumu, but no other boy, and when Hazumu wanted to be Tomari s bride (way back then) I d say it s
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 31, 2007
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                                      "... her past notwithstanding"?
                                       
                                      When Yasuna could see Hazumu, but no other boy, and when Hazumu wanted to be Tomari's bride (way back then) I'd say it's including Hazumu's past, not despite it.
                                       
                                      Ellen Rose
                                       
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Yuricon@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Susan Davis
                                      Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:20 AM
                                      To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [Yuricon] Re: The real meaning Of Yuri/Shoujo ai

                                      "kyouka_mitzrugi" <kyouka_mitz@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > It is recognition of girls gathering around a chief character that is
                                      > important.

                                      Ah! That makes sense.

                                      Now, in the Kashimashi case, it could be argued that Yasuna (and to a
                                      lesser extent Tomari) really did see Hazumu as a girl, her past
                                      notwithstanding. At the very least, they knew she was one *now*, and
                                      was neither able nor motivated to go back at any forseeable point.

                                      --
                                      Susan Davis <futabachan@yahoo. com>

                                    • u101_yoshimi@fastmail.fm
                                      On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:37:19 -0500, Ellen Kuhfeld ... In my opinion it doesn t really matter - including or despite. The fact is after
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 31, 2007
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                                        On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:37:19 -0500, "Ellen Kuhfeld" <ellen@...>
                                        said:

                                        > "... her past notwithstanding"?
                                        >
                                        > When Yasuna could see Hazumu, but no other boy, and when Hazumu wanted to
                                        > be
                                        > Tomari's bride (way back then) I'd say it's including Hazumu's past, not
                                        > despite it.

                                        In my opinion it doesn't really matter - including or despite.
                                        The fact is after Hazumu's transformation both girls were in love with
                                        her, therefore it was yuri. If it wasn't yuri, then all Hazumu would get
                                        in this anime is something like "I'm sorry Hazumu, but you know we are
                                        both girls right now, so... let's be friends, ok?" (in fact, Hazumu
                                        expected this kind of reception)
                                        --

                                        u101_yoshimi@...

                                        --
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