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Re: [Semi OT] Why do girls prefer manga over American comics

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  • malini ely
    The girls who read mecha and such probably do read comics. I m obsessed with the Sandman series, myself, and a girl I met because of a mutual Yu-Gi-Oh!
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 13, 2006
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      The girls who read mecha and such probably do read comics. I'm obsessed with the Sandman series, myself, and a girl I met because of a mutual Yu-Gi-Oh! obsession had read and owned nearly all of the Spiderman ever published.
      Personally, my one objection to some manga is just how much it caters to an audience. There are some where you can tell the audience is more important than artistic expression. That's why I respect Kaori Yuki of Angel Sanctuary so much - I'm not going to say there's no fan service, but I love it.
      <3 Malini


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    • chai
      As a girl I do enjoy both manga and American comics, but I prefer manga. Primarily it s the art and writing styles - I m tired of muscle-bound,
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 13, 2006
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        As a girl I do enjoy both manga and American comics, but I prefer manga.  Primarily it's the art and writing styles - I'm tired of muscle-bound, testosterone-ridden characters and all the emphasis on every insignificant word drives me mad!  Manga simply reads more like a story and less like a pantomime.  But if the story's good enough you can't keep me away - I'll be getting into Runaways this break, for instance.  I suppose this all has to do with gender, but can't we just mark it down to personal taste?
      • Jamie Wells
        Well... think about it. Ever since comics began their mass marketing in American back in the 30 s they were geared towards boys. Sure they did try create
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 13, 2006
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          Well... think about it.  Ever since comics began their mass marketing in American back in the 30's they were geared towards boys.  Sure they did try create stuff that could be appealing to guys and gals but it never really hit big.  And somewhere along the lines it became part of the gender definition.  Girls have their dolls and barbies, boys have their GI Joes and comics.  I'm sure there were girls that read comics, just like there were boys that played with barbies.

          Those are exceptions.

          In my humble opinion because of the way Americans have brought up their kids, it would make sense that girls find manga more appealing.  It is more storylike and, without upsetting too many people, similar to a daytime soap in paper and ink form.  Even the most manly of manga still captures character's emotions well and pointedly. So while american boys are generally more interested in how big they can create the bang of their comic, american girls are generally more interested in how the characters express themselves.

          Obviously, though, things are changing quite drastically.  Nevertheless, we can't forget the roots from which we came.  Hell, I'm in my early 20's and my mom regails me of stories of how she had to clean her brother's bedrooms and make their food and do their laundry because that was what was expected of a girl.

          I'm not saying Minx is right in doing this, I'm just explaining that there are two sides to every story.  They're taking a gamble, unfortunately for them, I don't think it's going to work.

          chai <teachai@...> wrote:
          As a girl I do enjoy both manga and American comics, but I prefer manga.  Primarily it's the art and writing styles - I'm tired of muscle-bound, testosterone- ridden characters and all the emphasis on every insignificant word drives me mad!  Manga simply reads more like a story and less like a pantomime.  But if the story's good enough you can't keep me away - I'll be getting into Runaways this break, for instance.  I suppose this all has to do with gender, but can't we just mark it down to personal taste?


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        • stonegarden@comcast.net
          When I was in my preteens I loved comic books. Archie was probably one of the main ones I d get. It was much, MUCH later that I got into them again. Just a
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 13, 2006
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            When I was in my preteens I loved comic books.  Archie was probably one of the main ones I'd get.  It was much, MUCH later that I got into them again.  Just a couple... Strangers in Paradise, and Love and Rockets.  Because someone somewhere mentioned they had a lesbian main character.  Neither I would exactly call romance.  Slice of strange life would be more like it.  Anime has my attention more than manga, but have bought some manga to further learn about the anime.  I'm afraid I can get quite addicted reading the scanlations at Lillilicious.  If I could read Japanese I'd be all over the Maria sama ga Miteru novels.  It was a while ago, but there was a person from my alma mater who was going to manga - ize some of the Archie comics for the Japanese market.  At the same college, I was reading about a former teacher I had who was teaching some kind of class on creating comics for girls, or it might have been more that girl s were main characters that were more than T & A sightseeing.  I've been following the anime NANA, and after seeing episode 30 (won't spoil it) I have to say I doubt this kind of stuff happens to Betty and Veronica. 
             
            christine
          • Ellen Kuhfeld
            Oh, I d not say that kind of stuff doesn t happen to Betty and Veronica. Back in my mis-spent youth, I did a Betty and Veronica doujin, and also something
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 13, 2006
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              Oh, I'd not say "that kind of stuff" doesn't happen to Betty and Veronica. Back in my mis-spent youth, I did a Betty and Veronica doujin, and also something called "Jack's High" which was in much the same vein. (I just googled it - there's a copy of the first issue on eBay they're asking $55 for! And I'm not even dead! I wonder how much I could get for the zeroth issue ...)
               
              Mind you, I haven't been following NANA, but if there's a doujin or two in the woodpile, the universe of possibilities expands enormously.
               
              And did you get that Archie/Marvel crossover between Archie and The Punisher? Yes, it exists - got a copy downstairs.
               
              Ellen Rose
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Yuricon@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of stonegarden@...
              Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:51 PM
              To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Yuricon] Re: [Semi OT] Why do girls prefer manga over American comics

              When I was in my preteens I loved comic books.  Archie was probably one of the main ones I'd get.  It was much, MUCH later that I got into them again.  Just a couple... Strangers in Paradise, and Love and Rockets.  Because someone somewhere mentioned they had a lesbian main character.  Neither I would exactly call romance.  Slice of strange life would be more like it.  Anime has my attention more than manga, but have bought some manga to further learn about the anime.  I'm afraid I can get quite addicted reading the scanlations at Lillilicious.  If I could read Japanese I'd be all over the Maria sama ga Miteru novels.  It was a while ago, but there was a person from my alma mater who was going to manga - ize some of the Archie comics for the Japanese market.  At the same college, I was reading about a former teacher I had who was teaching some kind of class on creating comics for girls, or it might have been more that girl s were main characters that were more than T & A sightseeing.  I've been following the anime NANA, and after seeing episode 30 (won't spoil it) I have to say I doubt this kind of stuff happens to Betty and Veronica. 
               
              christine

            • Resop
              I would agree that none of the Marimite girls are trying to bring revolution to the world. But, while their concerns might seem trival or banal to people
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 15, 2006
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                I would agree that none of the Marimite girls are trying to bring
                revolution to the world. But, while their concerns might seem
                trival or banal to people watching the show, their concerns are
                important to themselves, and their concerns do seem to have an
                impact on their surrondings.

                For example, Yumi turns down Sachiko's rosary initially because
                Yumi didn't want Sachiko to make Yumi Sachiko's petite soeur
                without Yumi proving that she was deserving. Because of this,
                after Yumi proves that she is worthy, Sachiko gives Yumi the
                rosary in front of the statue of the Virgin Mary. Because of
                all this many of soeur couples at the school break up, feeling
                that they didn't have the same experience that Yumi and Sachiko
                had (and feeling empowered after Yoshino gives back her rosary
                to Rei).

                Now, on the other hand, I think that Marimite isn't all that
                realistic an anime primarily because no one bullies Yumi over
                being an "unworthy everygirl" being chosen by the universally
                admired school idol. Also, no one seems to gossip about any of
                the main soeur couples being lesbians even though they are often
                seen acting like loving couples. (Although I have been told
                that the novels add more detail in those directions).

                Craig

                --- josephglanvill <s0235438@...> wrote:

                > As to the differences in what boys and girls read, I cannae say
                > that I have noticed that much. Most of my tastes are shared by the
                > girls I like to hang out with, as by the guys: strong, character
                > driven stories, ones which are, in a word, Romanticist. The only
                > thing I can think of - and this is subjective, and I stress this - is
                > that women seem to have a greater, on average, liking for a kind of
                > sub-naturalist fiction that I can't stand. It's anything which is
                > focused on "character interactions", at the expense of any meaningful
                > plot or development. These tend to be banal in a way that makes my
                > skin crawl. By way of illustration, and at the risk of getting
                > lynched, I'll say that this is why I can't stand Maramite - there's
                > not a single Jury Arisugawa or Oscar Fran├žois Jarjayes or Julie
                > d'Aubigny among them. For that matter there isn't even a Wakaba
                > Shizuhara or a Sara Mudo amongst them, and their concerns strike me
                > as mainly petty and trivial, and incredibly banal.
                >
                > Anyway, that's my take on the issue.
                >
                > Fanusi Khiyal
              • Gerald
                ... Yeah, because a manga about a boy who desperately wants to bang his sister, but his crazy mom is against it is the perfect example of what man can and
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 18, 2006
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                  > A quick aside, I would unhesitatingly say that, in all of anime and
                  > manga, the best Romanticist work ever produced, and therefore the
                  > best written, period, is _Angel Sanctuary_. To my knowledge, that is
                  > the only completely integrated, full bodied, first-rank Romanticist
                  > work in existence in anime and manga.

                  Yeah, because a manga about a boy who desperately wants to bang his
                  sister, but his "crazy" mom is against it is the perfect example of
                  what man "can and should be." :P
                • Erica Friedman
                  From: Gerald ... Angel Sanctuary made Young Werther cry. ....of course so did everything else. ;-) Cheers, Erica Yuricon - For real
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 18, 2006
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                    From: "Gerald" <grathkolb@...>
                    >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Marimite revolution (was Re: [Yuricon] Re: [Semi OT] Why do girls
                    >prefer manga o
                    >Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:39:33 -0000
                    >
                    > > A quick aside, I would unhesitatingly say that, in all of anime and
                    > > manga, the best Romanticist work ever produced, and therefore the
                    > > best written, period, is _Angel Sanctuary_. To my knowledge, that is
                    > > the only completely integrated, full bodied, first-rank Romanticist
                    > > work in existence in anime and manga.
                    >
                    >Yeah, because a manga about a boy who desperately wants to bang his
                    >sister, but his "crazy" mom is against it is the perfect example of
                    >what man "can and should be." :P

                    "Angel Sanctuary" made Young Werther cry.

                    ....of course so did everything else. ;-)


                    Cheers,

                    Erica

                    Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                    http://www.yuricon.org


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                  • Ellen Kuhfeld
                    This is all very well, but I come of an engineering family, studied to be an experimental physicist, then ended up as a museum curator. The touchstone is what
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 18, 2006
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                      This is all very well, but I come of an engineering family, studied to be an experimental physicist, then ended up as a museum curator. The touchstone is what IS. "What could be" has an appalling tendency to turn into "what should be", and 'should' is one of the most dangerous words in any language. It starts turning into compulsion as soon as people get serious about it.
                       
                      Ellen Rose
                       
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Yuricon@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of josephglanvill
                      Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 5:34 AM
                      To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Marimite revolution (was Re: [Yuricon] Re: [Semi OT] Why do girls prefer manga over American comics)

                      > I would agree that none of the Marimite girls are trying to bring
                      > revolution to the world. But, while their concerns might seem
                      > trival or banal to people watching the show, their concerns are
                      > important to themselves, and their concerns do seem to have an
                      > impact on their surrondings.

                      Heh. Well, there you have the basic difference between Romanticism
                      and Naturalism. Romanticism bascially follows Aristotle: "Fiction is
                      more important than history, because history only tells us what men
                      are, while fiction can tell us what they can and should be."
                      Naturalism generally tries to imitate Shakespeare, and fails -
                      projecting men as they, suposedly, always have to be. The difference
                      is that Shakespeare achieves a Universality that is lacking in later
                      Naturalists. That is, the problems - such as greed, jealousy, power-
                      lust - that he describes can be applied in any era. In a time when
                      the bloody horror of honour killings exists once again in the West,
                      Juliet's lament in answer to her father's threat:

                      " Look to't, think on't, I do not use to jest.
                      Thursday is near, lay hand on heart, advise:
                      And you be mine, I'll give you to my friend;
                      And you be not, hang, beg, starve, die in the streets,
                      For by my soul, I'll ne'er acknowledge thee,
                      Nor what is mine shall ever do thee good. "

                      And so on. Or look at Othello. The idea of a jealous man
                      murdering his wife because of suspected infidelity is as true now as
                      it was when the Bard of Avon penned it. Nor is Iago - a malicious,
                      jealous spiteful wretch who destroys happiness and goodness precisely
                      because he cannot have them - an exclusively temporal phenomenon.

                      Still, I have trouble with Shakespeare because, despite being the
                      greatest of them, he is still a Naturalist, with the inherent false
                      premise of Naturalism (in essence, a denying of the power of human
                      volition).
                      Now, the trouble I see with _this_:

                      > For example, Yumi turns down Sachiko's rosary initially because
                      > Yumi didn't want Sachiko to make Yumi Sachiko's petite soeur
                      > without Yumi proving that she was deserving. Because of this,
                      > after Yumi proves that she is worthy, Sachiko gives Yumi the
                      > rosary in front of the statue of the Virgin Mary. Because of
                      > all this many of soeur couples at the school break up, feeling
                      > that they didn't have the same experience that Yumi and Sachiko
                      > had (and feeling empowered after Yoshino gives back her rosary
                      > to Rei).

                      I fail to see how that has any kind of siginificance beyond the
                      local. They are concretes with no wider significance. Shakespeare
                      it is not. And it certainly is not Victor Hugo.

                      Returning to anime for a few seconds, look at Oscar in "The Rose of
                      Versailles". She an almost pure-blooded Romanticist character, with
                      her central theme being a conflict of moral values. It's a really
                      first-rate piece of work, and - here's the point - its conflicts can
                      be generalised and applied to different situations. Anyone who has
                      ever come face to face with the manifest falsity of what they
                      _thought_ was the good can relate to Oscar.
                      And then there's Juri Arisugawa, whose theme is suffering and
                      overcoming that suffering - retaining her integrity. She is another
                      brilliant Romantic character (although, in terms of power, volition
                      and consistency of characterisation, I believe that Ruka is her
                      superior). Admitedly, "The Rose of Versailles" and "Revolutionary
                      Girl Utena" are entirely first-rank Romanticist series (hardly
                      surprising, given the general lack of it these days) they contain
                      some of the best portions of Romanticsism in anime that I can think
                      of.
                      A quick aside, I would unhesitatingly say that, in all of anime and
                      manga, the best Romanticist work ever produced, and therefore the
                      best written, period, is _Angel Sanctuary_. To my knowledge, that is
                      the only completely integrated, full bodied, first-rank Romanticist
                      work in existence in anime and manga. In terms of the bulk of
                      Romanticism in existence, I consider it about two centimetres down
                      (possibly) from Victor Hugo's _Ninety-Three_ .

                      Yikes, this has grown long.

                      Fanusi Khiyal

                    • Resop
                      ... Strange, I am neither female, lesbian, Japanese or Catholic, but I connected with that arc s theme of the fish out of water working hard to be accepted in
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 18, 2006
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                        --- josephglanvill <s0235438@...> wrote:

                        > > For example, Yumi turns down Sachiko's rosary initially because
                        > > Yumi didn't want Sachiko to make Yumi Sachiko's petite soeur
                        > > without Yumi proving that she was deserving. Because of this,
                        > > after Yumi proves that she is worthy, Sachiko gives Yumi the
                        > > rosary in front of the statue of the Virgin Mary. Because of
                        > > all this many of soeur couples at the school break up, feeling
                        > > that they didn't have the same experience that Yumi and Sachiko
                        > > had (and feeling empowered after Yoshino gives back her rosary
                        > > to Rei).
                        >
                        > I fail to see how that has any kind of significance beyond the
                        > local. They are concretes with no wider significance. Shakespeare
                        > it is not. And it certainly is not Victor Hugo.

                        Strange, I am neither female, lesbian, Japanese or Catholic, but I
                        connected with that arc's theme of the fish out of water working hard
                        to be accepted in a new world for the sake of winning a new friend.

                        > Returning to anime for a few seconds, look at Oscar in "The Rose of
                        > Versailles". She an almost pure-blooded Romanticist character, with
                        > her central theme being a conflict of moral values. It's a really
                        > first-rate piece of work, and - here's the point - its conflicts can
                        > be generalised and applied to different situations. Anyone who has
                        > ever come face to face with the manifest falsity of what they
                        > _thought_ was the good can relate to Oscar.

                        Especially if they are female and their father raised them to be a
                        boy.

                        Are you arguing that because you are not able to generalize the theme
                        of an anime into something "universal" then it must be bad? I'm sure
                        there are many on this mailing list who could make those generalizations
                        for Marimite if you offer them an sufficiently large academic grant. ;)

                        > And then there's Juri Arisugawa, whose theme is suffering and
                        > overcoming that suffering - retaining her integrity. She is another
                        > brilliant Romantic character (although, in terms of power, volition
                        > and consistency of characterisation, I believe that Ruka is her
                        > superior). Admitedly, "The Rose of Versailles" and "Revolutionary
                        > Girl Utena" are entirely first-rank Romanticist series (hardly
                        > surprising, given the general lack of it these days) they contain
                        > some of the best portions of Romanticsism in anime that I can think
                        > of.

                        What about the Sei/Shiori arc? Is Marimite an inferior work because
                        Sei becomes a dirty old man and shuns contact for months and months
                        because she had her heart broke? It seemed like a realistic reaction
                        to me.

                        This whole thread is tough for me because I do not relate to anime in
                        a "is it good literature" way any more than I relate to literature in a
                        "it has a good beat and you can dance to it" way. I more relate to
                        anime on a "OMG characters X/Y are teh smex" way.

                        Craig
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