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Yuri/Yaoi

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  • M. Coleridge
    I live in San Francisco and next month there is a yaoicon convention. I have a couple of questions to the more experienced in the group. Is there generally a
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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      I live in San Francisco and next month there is a yaoicon convention. I
      have a couple of questions to the more experienced in the group.

      Is there generally a cross-over? Are people interested in Yuri also
      interested in Yaoi or do the fans tend to be distinct? Do artists cross
      genres? Could I expect to learn about artists at a yaoi convention that
      would also be yuri artists?

      http://www.yaoicon.com/

      Thanks
      -Marina
    • atheniag
      ... convention. I ... cross ... that ... Hi Marina - There s a certain amount of crossover in the fandom. I think its reasonably safe to say that some of the
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "M. Coleridge" <f4chaser@h...> wrote:

        > I live in San Francisco and next month there is a yaoicon
        convention. I
        > have a couple of questions to the more experienced in the group.
        >
        > Is there generally a cross-over? Are people interested in Yuri also
        > interested in Yaoi or do the fans tend to be distinct? Do artists
        cross
        > genres? Could I expect to learn about artists at a yaoi convention
        that
        > would also be yuri artists?

        Hi Marina -

        There's a certain amount of crossover in the fandom. I think its
        reasonably safe to say that some of the female fans of Yuri, at least,
        read yaoi. I wouldn't assume the guys do or don't - it's probably a
        small percentage that seek it out.

        I haven't seen a huge crossover going the other way, myself, but that
        may have changed. There was a time when the most common phrase I heard
        from Yaoi fans about Yuri was "eww." That seems to be lessening as
        that fanbase matures.

        In Japan artists do crossover at least a little. Two of the most
        famous artists in "Yuri Hime" magazine, Eiki Eiki and Taishi Zaou,
        have been doing Yaoi work for a long time and are quite well-known in
        that genre.

        Since Boys Love is a popular and lucrative genre, you'll probably find
        more artists actually working in that field, than in Yuri. (If I'm not
        entirely mistaken - and heaven knows I often am! lol - The yuri work
        the above pair did for Yuri Shimai and then Yuri Hime where their
        first openly, specifically "Yuri" work.

        I know that at Yuricon 2003 we did have a Yaoi track in the
        programming to acknowledge the crossover in fandom. At Onna!, the
        event in October we're co-sponsoring with Shoujocon, Yaoi and Yuri
        have equal time. I have absolutely no idea whether Yaoi-con gives any
        time to Yuri programming...my guess is that it would not. I would LOVE
        to be wrong about that, so if anyone knows - please tell me! :-)

        It is my understanding that few, if any, Yaoi artists "come out" about
        their Yuri work - even if they do it. Because of the assumption that a
        woman drawing yuri must therefore be a lesbian, even obvious lesbians
        drawing yaoi basically kept quiet about any yuri they did.

        With the advent of Yuri Shimai/Yuri Hime/Yuri Monogatari, that appears
        to be changing. Yuri artists are contributing yuri stories to yuri
        publications under the same names they formerly did shoujo, josei or
        yaoi works.

        I think the whole fandom is a work in progress. Check back in 5 years
        and let's see where it's gotten to, shall we? :-)

        Did any of that even make sense? LOL

        Cheers,

        Erica
      • Shimako Toudou
        From personal experience, I was bored silly at Yaoicon. There was very little, if any, art from the other side as far as artist alley and dealer alley
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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          From personal experience, I was bored silly at Yaoicon. There was very
          little, if any, art from "the other side" as far as artist alley and
          dealer alley offerings were concerned (as expected). If you like yaoi,
          by all means try to attend, but if you have little to no interest in
          yaoi, it's not really the con for you.

          On 9/7/05, M. Coleridge <f4chaser@...> wrote:
          > I live in San Francisco and next month there is a yaoicon convention. I
          > have a couple of questions to the more experienced in the group.
          >
          > Is there generally a cross-over? Are people interested in Yuri also
          > interested in Yaoi or do the fans tend to be distinct? Do artists cross
          > genres? Could I expect to learn about artists at a yaoi convention that
          > would also be yuri artists?
          >
          > http://www.yaoicon.com/
          >
          > Thanks
          > -Marina
        • Trishane Lee
          I would have to say that SOME fans cross over but in my general experience (And my experience here is AZ only) there tends to be very little cross overs and in
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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            I would have to say that SOME fans cross over but in my general experience (And my experience here is AZ only) there tends to be very little cross overs and in fact the fans of Yaoi and Yuri tend to not mix well. though they have an understanding you rarely find fans of both (and that is only in my limited experince living in Arizona)
            Shane
            "M. Coleridge" <f4chaser@...> wrote:
            I live in San Francisco and next month there is a yaoicon convention.  I
            have a couple of questions to the more experienced in the group.

            Is there generally a cross-over?  Are people interested in Yuri also
            interested in Yaoi or do the fans tend to be distinct?  Do artists cross
            genres?  Could I expect to learn about artists at a yaoi convention that
            would also be yuri artists?

            http://www.yaoicon.com/

            Thanks
            -Marina



            Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

          • shenotski
            I will say this in favor of Yuri at least a good percentage of it is made by women, yaoi to me is so feminized that the charecters arent even male. Rather it
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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              I will say this in favor of Yuri at least a good percentage of it is
              made by women, yaoi to me is so feminized that the charecters arent
              even male. Rather it seems that the charecters most of the time have
              no gender drawing wise, which does fit with the term (No point).

              I wont make a statement/case which (i don't have time to research
              into) and say that Yaoi and Yuri are kind of the same thing, though if
              they are then it's ironic. Homosexuality between Men thats done by
              Women is more popular, then homosexuality between Women thats done by
              Women.


              "...and i think to myself. What a wonderful world."
            • Resop
              ... I have often got the same feeling. There might be a historical reason for the feminized males in some Yaoi. The Takarazuka Theater has long had a
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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                --- shenotski <duomaxwell@...> wrote:

                > I will say this in favor of Yuri at least a good percentage of it is
                > made by women, yaoi to me is so feminized that the charecters arent
                > even male. Rather it seems that the charecters most of the time have
                > no gender drawing wise, which does fit with the term (No point).
                >
                > I wont make a statement/case which (i don't have time to research
                > into) and say that Yaoi and Yuri are kind of the same thing, though if
                > they are then it's ironic. Homosexuality between Men thats done by
                > Women is more popular, then homosexuality between Women thats done by
                > Women.

                I have often got the same feeling. There might be a historical reason for the
                feminized males in some Yaoi. The Takarazuka Theater has long had a
                tradition of running musical versions of shoujo manga (among other things).
                Since the Takarazuka Theater is all-female (females playing both male
                and female roles) manga with feminized men would be easier to protray
                in the Takarazuka Theater and thus have an additional revenue stream.

                Craig

                Paraphrase from a friend watching Gravatation for the first time "She's
                rather flat chested, isn't she?"
              • kylandra
                Or maybe it s because Japanese men don t tend to be very large or muscular? And Japanese women happen to like pretty men? Really, you should see some of the
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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                  Or maybe it's because Japanese men don't tend to be very large or muscular?  And Japanese women happen to like pretty men?

                  Really, you should see some of the men's fashion magazines in Japan.  Puts our piddly little Western "metrosexuality" thing to shame.

                  On 9/7/05, Resop <resop2@...> wrote:
                  --- shenotski <duomaxwell@...> wrote:

                  > I will say this in favor of Yuri at least a good percentage of it is
                  > made by women, yaoi to me is so feminized that the charecters arent
                  > even male. Rather it seems that the charecters most of the time have
                  > no gender drawing wise, which does fit with the term (No point).
                  >
                  > I wont make a statement/case which (i don't have time to research
                  > into) and say that Yaoi and Yuri are kind of the same thing, though if
                  > they are then it's ironic. Homosexuality between Men thats done by
                  > Women is more popular, then homosexuality between Women thats done by
                  > Women.

                  I have often got the same feeling.  There might be a historical reason for the
                  feminized males in some Yaoi.  The Takarazuka Theater has long had a
                  tradition of running musical versions of shoujo manga (among other things).
                  Since the Takarazuka Theater is all-female (females playing both male
                  and female roles) manga with feminized men would be easier to protray
                  in the Takarazuka Theater and thus have an additional revenue stream.

                  Craig

                  Paraphrase from a friend watching Gravatation for the first time "She's
                  rather flat chested, isn't she?"


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                  Kylandra

                  http://www.livejournal.com/users/kylandra
                • kylandra
                  Erm, I d like to clarify that I wasn t trying to be rude there. I ve had a rough day and slipped up on that whole no tone of voice in text thing. ... --
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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                    Erm, I'd like to clarify that I wasn't trying to be rude there.  I've had a rough day and slipped up on that whole "no tone of voice in text" thing.

                    On 9/7/05, kylandra <geekoriffic@...> wrote:
                    Or maybe it's because Japanese men don't tend to be very large or muscular?  And Japanese women happen to like pretty men?

                    Really, you should see some of the men's fashion magazines in Japan.  Puts our piddly little Western "metrosexuality" thing to shame.


                    On 9/7/05, Resop < resop2@...> wrote:
                    --- shenotski <duomaxwell@...> wrote:

                    > I will say this in favor of Yuri at least a good percentage of it is
                    > made by women, yaoi to me is so feminized that the charecters arent
                    > even male. Rather it seems that the charecters most of the time have
                    > no gender drawing wise, which does fit with the term (No point).
                    >
                    > I wont make a statement/case which (i don't have time to research
                    > into) and say that Yaoi and Yuri are kind of the same thing, though if
                    > they are then it's ironic. Homosexuality between Men thats done by
                    > Women is more popular, then homosexuality between Women thats done by
                    > Women.

                    I have often got the same feeling.  There might be a historical reason for the
                    feminized males in some Yaoi.  The Takarazuka Theater has long had a
                    tradition of running musical versions of shoujo manga (among other things).
                    Since the Takarazuka Theater is all-female (females playing both male
                    and female roles) manga with feminized men would be easier to protray
                    in the Takarazuka Theater and thus have an additional revenue stream.

                    Craig

                    Paraphrase from a friend watching Gravatation for the first time "She's
                    rather flat chested, isn't she?"


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                    --
                    Kylandra

                    http://www.livejournal.com/users/kylandra



                    --
                    Kylandra

                    http://www.livejournal.com/users/kylandra
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... I gotta agree with that. They do androgyny way better than anyone else in the world. OTOH, L Arc n Ciel still look like guys to me, no matter how much
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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                      >From: kylandra <geekoriffic@...>
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Yuri/Yaoi
                      >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:57:27 -0400
                      >
                      >Or maybe it's because Japanese men don't tend to be very large or muscular?
                      >And Japanese women happen to like pretty men?
                      >
                      >Really, you should see some of the men's fashion magazines in Japan. Puts
                      >our piddly little Western "metrosexuality" thing to shame.

                      I gotta agree with that. They do androgyny way better than anyone else in
                      the world.

                      OTOH, L'Arc n Ciel still look like guys to me, no matter how much makeup
                      they wear. :-)

                      Cheers,

                      Erica
                    • kylandra
                      Yeah, the L arc guys don t really look that girly to me. Now, Mana from Malice Mizer on the other hand...heh. I ve gotten to the point by now where I don t
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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                        Yeah, the L'arc guys don't really look that girly to me.  Now, Mana from Malice Mizer on the other hand...heh.

                        I've gotten to the point by now where I don't even bat an eye at it, and I've gotten pretty good at spotting the men, pretty though they may be.  And I have to say, I'm with the Japanese women on this one most of the time.  I like some manly guys sometimes, especially in manga art, but for the most part keep the bodybuilders and body/facial hair away from me.  So sometimes I actually get a bit confused when people start being all "where are the MEN!"  ;)

                        On 9/7/05, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@... > wrote:
                        >From: kylandra <geekoriffic@... >
                        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Yuri/Yaoi
                        >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:57:27 -0400
                        >
                        >Or maybe it's because Japanese men don't tend to be very large or muscular?
                        >And Japanese women happen to like pretty men?
                        >
                        >Really, you should see some of the men's fashion magazines in Japan. Puts
                        >our piddly little Western "metrosexuality" thing to shame.

                        I gotta agree with that. They do androgyny way better than anyone else in
                        the world.

                        OTOH, L'Arc n Ciel still look like guys to me, no matter how much makeup
                        they wear. :-)

                        Cheers,

                        Erica




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                        http://www.livejournal.com/users/kylandra
                      • Resop
                        I m sure that those are also valid reasons. Craig
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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                          I'm sure that those are also valid reasons.

                          Craig

                          --- kylandra <geekoriffic@...> wrote:

                          > Or maybe it's because Japanese men don't tend to be very large or muscular?
                          > And Japanese women happen to like pretty men?
                          >
                          > Really, you should see some of the men's fashion magazines in Japan. Puts
                          > our piddly little Western "metrosexuality" thing to shame.
                          >
                          > On 9/7/05, Resop <resop2@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- shenotski <duomaxwell@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > I will say this in favor of Yuri at least a good percentage of it is
                          > > > made by women, yaoi to me is so feminized that the charecters arent
                          > > > even male. Rather it seems that the charecters most of the time have
                          > > > no gender drawing wise, which does fit with the term (No point).
                          > > >
                          > > > I wont make a statement/case which (i don't have time to research
                          > > > into) and say that Yaoi and Yuri are kind of the same thing, though if
                          > > > they are then it's ironic. Homosexuality between Men thats done by
                          > > > Women is more popular, then homosexuality between Women thats done by
                          > > > Women.
                          > >
                          > > I have often got the same feeling. There might be a historical reason for
                          > > the
                          > > feminized males in some Yaoi. The Takarazuka Theater has long had a
                          > > tradition of running musical versions of shoujo manga (among other
                          > > things).
                          > > Since the Takarazuka Theater is all-female (females playing both male
                          > > and female roles) manga with feminized men would be easier to protray
                          > > in the Takarazuka Theater and thus have an additional revenue stream.
                          > >
                          > > Craig
                          > >
                          > > Paraphrase from a friend watching Gravatation for the first time "She's
                          > > rather flat chested, isn't she?"
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Kylandra
                          >
                          > http://www.livejournal.com/users/kylandra
                          >
                        • atheniag
                          ... I was at a con and I walked up to a J-Rock table in the DR. I stood there for a while, watching a video of five sweaty guys in women s kimonos playing some
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 7, 2005
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                            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, kylandra <geekoriffic@g...> wrote:

                            > Yeah, the L'arc guys don't really look that girly to me.

                            I was at a con and I walked up to a J-Rock table in the DR. I stood
                            there for a while, watching a video of five sweaty guys in women's
                            kimonos playing some unremarkable song while clone girls screamed and
                            jumped up and down in the audience.

                            The woman behind the counter leans over and nods knowingly. "Those are
                            men," she confides to me with a small smile.

                            I look at her, then look at the DVD player screen. "Either that, or
                            they are five of the ugliest women alive," I respond.


                            This true story was brought to you by the letter O! for Onna!. You
                            want androgyny...we got androgyny. http://www.onnafest.com

                            Cheers,

                            Erica
                          • Carmen DiProspero
                            Staying on-topic, when I went to this year s Katsucon and checked out the musical guests, Psycho le Cemu, a couple of the members looked VERY effemine (SIC),
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 8, 2005
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                              Staying on-topic, when I went to this year's Katsucon
                              and checked out the musical guests, Psycho le Cemu, a
                              couple of the members looked VERY effemine (SIC), and
                              I thought they were female!! Good thing a fangirl
                              standing next to me at their Friday night concert set
                              me straight.


                              --- kylandra <geekoriffic@...> wrote:

                              > Yeah, the L'arc guys don't really look that girly to
                              > me. Now, Mana from
                              > Malice Mizer on the other hand...heh.
                              >
                              > I've gotten to the point by now where I don't even
                              > bat an eye at it, and
                              > I've gotten pretty good at spotting the men, pretty
                              > though they may be. And
                              > I have to say, I'm with the Japanese women on this
                              > one most of the time. I
                              > like some manly guys sometimes, especially in manga
                              > art, but for the most
                              > part keep the bodybuilders and body/facial hair away
                              > from me. So sometimes I
                              > actually get a bit confused when people start being
                              > all "where are the MEN!"
                              > ;)
                              >
                              > On 9/7/05, Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >From: kylandra <geekoriffic@...>
                              > > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                              > > >Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Yuri/Yaoi
                              > > >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:57:27 -0400
                              > > >
                              > > >Or maybe it's because Japanese men don't tend to
                              > be very large or
                              > > muscular?
                              > > >And Japanese women happen to like pretty men?
                              > > >
                              > > >Really, you should see some of the men's fashion
                              > magazines in Japan. Puts
                              > > >our piddly little Western "metrosexuality" thing
                              > to shame.
                              > >
                              > > I gotta agree with that. They do androgyny way
                              > better than anyone else in
                              > > the world.
                              > >
                              > > OTOH, L'Arc n Ciel still look like guys to me, no
                              > matter how much makeup
                              > > they wear. :-)
                              > >
                              > > Cheers,
                              > >
                              > > Erica
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Kylandra
                              >
                              > http://www.livejournal.com/users/kylandra
                              >


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                            • Jesse "Marduk" James S.
                              ... muscular? ... I agree on the tendency for Japanese men to have good gender bending skills. As I say, Mana is one hot chick! ~MardukZero -Can we go to the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 9, 2005
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                                Erica Friedman wrote:

                                > >From: kylandra <geekoriffic@...>
                                > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                > >Subject: Re: [Yuricon] Re: Yuri/Yaoi
                                > >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:57:27 -0400
                                > >
                                > >Or maybe it's because Japanese men don't tend to be very large or
                                muscular?
                                > >And Japanese women happen to like pretty men?
                                > >
                                > >Really, you should see some of the men's fashion magazines in Japan. Puts
                                > >our piddly little Western "metrosexuality" thing to shame.
                                >
                                > I gotta agree with that. They do androgyny way better than anyone else in
                                > the world.
                                >
                                > OTOH, L'Arc n Ciel still look like guys to me, no matter how much makeup
                                > they wear. :-)
                                >
                                > Cheers,
                                >
                                > Erica

                                I agree on the tendency for Japanese men to have good gender bending
                                skills. As
                                I say, "Mana is one hot chick!"

                                ~MardukZero
                                -Can we go to the place where we're forgiven?-

                                PS: Major delay in this post. Took me a couple days before my mailserver
                                admin and me finally figured out the reason I couldn't send /out/ mail
                                through SMTP was because my ISP (SBC Yahoo!) has a default block on port
                                25 because of spammers and stuff. Long story short: finally it's
                                working. X_X
                              • shenotski
                                I find it ironic the entirly paradoxil nature of alot of this. A man is no longered alowed to be a man. And a women is no longered allowed to be a women. Given
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 9, 2005
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                                  I find it ironic the entirly paradoxil nature of alot of this. A man is no
                                  longered alowed to be a man. And a women is no longered allowed to
                                  be a women. Given the commen theme's in alot of Yuri/Yaoi men have
                                  suddenly become the women and the women are now then men.

                                  Given that all of this is fiction Yaoi and Yuri have become a kind of mirror
                                  universe Not of the star treck veriaty but of the sexual. Men go off and
                                  have romantic flings, while the women go off and blow away a couple
                                  hundread people with machineguns. In this univserse the rules still aply
                                  but they have just been changed so given the reverse nature of this just
                                  imagine how we would be in it.

                                  Yuri con and Yaoi con are no more instead they have become Shojo con
                                  and shonen con. The basis of all dating is between those of the same
                                  gender everyone is assumed gay unless stated otherwise and many
                                  staite people are looks down on because of there sexual preferince. And
                                  low and behold hetro fiction has become quite popular online. Treck
                                  slash fic related to the female guest stars between kirk, not mr.spock.
                                  With gundam wing various fangirls soon over the thought of hero having
                                  sex with relena, and on the Shojo side Utena revolutionizes the world by
                                  not chsng anthy and becomes a princess to her real prince.

                                  This is the kind of world that exists in the relm where Yaoi/Yuri comes
                                  from. There are those who live in it that would love to be in a world like
                                  ours.

                                  Now is this world mad or sain i do like Utena ending up with anthy but if
                                  it was ok by socioty to let utena end up with anthy then she'd end up wit
                                  hher prince and here in lies a fun little paradox.


                                  Anyways got to go more on the mirror world later.
                                • Aaron Moen
                                  What is chsng? ... ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 9, 2005
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                                    What is chsng?

                                    --- shenotski <duomaxwell@...> wrote:

                                    > I find it ironic the entirly paradoxil nature of
                                    > alot of this. A man is no
                                    > longered alowed to be a man. And a women is no
                                    > longered allowed to
                                    > be a women. Given the commen theme's in alot of
                                    > Yuri/Yaoi men have
                                    > suddenly become the women and the women are now then
                                    > men.
                                    >
                                    > Given that all of this is fiction Yaoi and Yuri have
                                    > become a kind of mirror
                                    > universe Not of the star treck veriaty but of the
                                    > sexual. Men go off and
                                    > have romantic flings, while the women go off and
                                    > blow away a couple
                                    > hundread people with machineguns. In this univserse
                                    > the rules still aply
                                    > but they have just been changed so given the reverse
                                    > nature of this just
                                    > imagine how we would be in it.
                                    >
                                    > Yuri con and Yaoi con are no more instead they have
                                    > become Shojo con
                                    > and shonen con. The basis of all dating is between
                                    > those of the same
                                    > gender everyone is assumed gay unless stated
                                    > otherwise and many
                                    > staite people are looks down on because of there
                                    > sexual preferince. And
                                    > low and behold hetro fiction has become quite
                                    > popular online. Treck
                                    > slash fic related to the female guest stars between
                                    > kirk, not mr.spock.
                                    > With gundam wing various fangirls soon over the
                                    > thought of hero having
                                    > sex with relena, and on the Shojo side Utena
                                    > revolutionizes the world by
                                    > not chsng anthy and becomes a princess to her real
                                    > prince.
                                    >
                                    > This is the kind of world that exists in the relm
                                    > where Yaoi/Yuri comes
                                    > from. There are those who live in it that would love
                                    > to be in a world like
                                    > ours.
                                    >
                                    > Now is this world mad or sain i do like Utena ending
                                    > up with anthy but if
                                    > it was ok by socioty to let utena end up with anthy
                                    > then she'd end up wit
                                    > hher prince and here in lies a fun little paradox.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Anyways got to go more on the mirror world later.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >





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                                  • shenotski
                                    thats me writing out chasing but without the i or a keys being pressed for some reason cause i was in a hurry.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 9, 2005
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                                      thats me writing out chasing but without the i or a keys being pressed for
                                      some reason cause i was in a hurry.
                                      > What is chsng?
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