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Re: Digest Number 1588

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  • atheniag
    ... The word shoujoai was created because the person who created it was trying to distance what she considered to be innocent love stories from that nasty
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 6, 2005
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      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Claude Smith <ossadagowah@y...> wrote:
      >
      > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
      > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
      > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
      > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
      > standards) has its own legitimacy.

      The word "shoujoai" was created because the person who created it was
      trying to distance what she considered to be innocent love stories
      from that nasty ole' yuri, which was porn.

      In my entirely personal opinion, its time to let the term die. It
      reeks of a fear of explicit sexuality that I (again, personally)think
      we need to shed. The community that created the word was the same
      that insisted, with a zealous fervor that the shounenai that they
      loved was not, in no way, even remotely yaoi. The explicit sex was
      simply a by product of the intense romaticism and beauty of the thing
      and was not porn.

      I feel no particular loyalty to this outdated and immature point of
      view.

      Don't get me wrong - I don't hate the word shoujoai. I strongly
      dislike that it has come to mean some kinds of not
      explicit "romantic" lesbian relationships, except where people simply
      don't know or like the word yuri, when it becomes anything f/f.

      And, as you say...things change. At Yuricon 2005 in Tokyo, I and some
      of the leading yuri managaka and writers and Tokyo simply decided to
      reinvent the word. So, there. :p

      I think its fair to say that, as the person who founded and runs the
      largest yuri organization in the world and the only publisher of yuri
      publications in the west, I'm allowed a teeny little leeway in
      insisting on the word *I* want, as opposed to that of someone else,
      who created a word to proctect herself (and other women) from the
      label of "pervy lesbians". :-)

      Let's call shoujaoi and shounenai what they are - outdated terms.
      Yaoi and Yuri will, as genres, be around for a while and that's the
      important thing.

      Cheers,

      Erica
    • Johann Chua
      ... The problem is that they re not even widely used enough to be considered part of English. English is lingua franca so other languages making use of
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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        On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 09:00 -0700, Claude Smith wrote:
        > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
        > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
        > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
        > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
        > standards) has its own legitimacy.

        The problem is that they're not even widely used enough to be considered
        part of English. English is lingua franca so other languages making use
        of non-standard English is to be expected, never mind all the various
        Englishes in use around the world.

        Japanese is the official language in just one country so it's best to
        stay true to the source.
      • Trishane Lee
        When I buy manga they tend to have Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai printed on the binding so that is how I refer to them when catorigaizing them ... The problem is
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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          When I buy manga they tend to have Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai printed on the binding so that is how I refer to them when catorigaizing them

          Johann Chua <johannchua@...> wrote:
          On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 09:00 -0700, Claude Smith wrote:
          > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
          > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
          > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
          > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
          > standards) has its own legitimacy.

          The problem is that they're not even widely used enough to be considered
          part of English.  English is lingua franca so other languages making use
          of non-standard English is to be expected, never mind all the various
          Englishes in use around the world.

          Japanese is the official language in just one country so it's best to
          stay true to the source.

          __________________________________________________
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          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com

        • Jen
          ... protect herself (and other women) from... pervy lesbians . :-) The quote above may have been abridged in the interest of keeping quotes down to a
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...> wrote:
            >
            > "...as opposed to that of someone else, who created a word to
            protect herself (and other women) from... "pervy lesbians". :-)


            The quote above may have been abridged in the interest of keeping
            quotes down to a managable size.

            ^_^





            > Let's call shoujaoi and shounenai what they are - outdated terms.
            > Yaoi and Yuri will, as genres, be around for a while and that's the
            > important thing.


            Maybe we can just dump the whole yaoi and yuri thing, and just file
            the whole thing under "queer"? ^_^

            http://punistation.fuyucorp.biz/puni/Yuri/BB/


            sub-group label elimination is all well and good, but I'm sure there's
            some happy people out there who may just like to read a nice fluffy
            yarn with maybe the odd girly kiss, as opposed to opening up a book
            and getting all that sticky, nekked, drooling stuff.


            Anyway, until the term "yuri" is pushed aside for the cooler, more
            fashionable term ("Sei"), enjoy the glory days as Yuri Grande.

            ^_^



            Kisses XXOOXX
            Jen
          • unclero@lycos.nl
            ... Ahhh... *bangs head against wall* So that s why those people I was talking with during a party at the Japanese embassy, looked as if they were witnessing
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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              > That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
              > refers to child porn in Japan.
              >
              > It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
              > go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
              > asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)

              Ahhh... *bangs head against wall*

              So that's why those people I was talking with during a party at the Japanese
              embassy, looked as if they were witnessing burning water...

              I don't think I can ever apply for a visa anymore >_<;;;;;;.


              - Uncle Ro'
            • Jesse "Marduk" James S.
              ... It s ironic and quite inconvinient when there s a shift in meaning for a term in it s area of origin, but this shift isn t largely known in other areas
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 9, 2005
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                unclero@... wrote:

                > > That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
                > > refers to child porn in Japan.
                > >
                > > It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
                > > go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
                > > asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)

                It's ironic and quite inconvinient when there's a shift in meaning for a
                term in it's area of origin, but this shift isn't largely known in other
                areas using the term (or those areas have their own usage that from the
                start somewhat diverged from the original meaning; and then there's a
                shift; and then there's connonations and implications and nuances
                and--oh, Lord, I seem to have gone cross-eyed.)

                Like otaku. It seems to me that the term's evolving similarly to 'geek'
                in the US; starting to loosen it's creepier connonations (more slowly,
                though....most people nowadays don't even remember that a geek was the
                dude in a side show who bit off chicken heads; but I digress) and become
                more of a term usable in a prideful manner. Someone who knows; am I
                [anywhere near] right? It just seemed that way to me. Or so Genshiken
                would lead one to believe >.>......XD

                ~MardukZero
                -Can we go to the place where we're forgiven?-
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