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Re: Digest Number 1588

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  • atheniag
    ... The way yuri and yaoi/Boys Love have encompassed what used to ... That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that refers to child
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 6, 2005
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      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
      > On Sep 6, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Claude Smith wrote:
      >
      The way yuri and yaoi/Boys Love have encompassed what used to
      > be distinguished as shounen ai and shoujo ai has made the use of
      > those terms redundant.

      That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
      refers to child porn in Japan.

      It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
      go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
      asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)


      > Sure, some people will still claim a distinction where there isn't
      > anymore, but gathering that American conventions only have yaoi
      and
      > yuri panels, and they both include content that used to be
      considered
      > separate as shonen/shoujo ai is pretty good evidence that shoujo/
      > shounen ai are no longer current terms. You could buy Yaoi or Yuri
      > paddles at Otakon, and various I [heart] Yuri/Yaoi merchandise,
      but
      > no shounen/shoujo ai merchandise to be found anywhere.

      Quite right, Serge.

      I'm personally strongly against a distinction between stories that
      are "romance" and those that have "sex" as if those two things are
      not connected. Sex does, in my experience, include romance, and
      romance often leads to sex. It seems silly, not to say childish to
      insist that there is some sort of rating system inherent in the,
      terminology. There are a few publishers who know use "Girls Love" the
      way most are using "Boys Love" - as a genre name. But there is no
      specific sex/romance split.

      This is likely because the Japanese simply don't have the age/sex
      issues we have in the West, but I also like to think that its because
      it simply complicates matters uneccesarily.

      Yuri, as we define it at Yuricon, does NOT mean porn, nor does it
      mean only stories that have explicit sex. Yuri refers to all stories
      that include relationships between women that include immensely close
      emotional bonds, akogare/admiration and/or physical desire and, of
      course, love.

      Bottom line is that the yurizoku, us lesbians, want a word for us and
      *our* stories. So, we've decided that *we* should define what yuri is
      and basically, I see no reason to use some word that some other
      person who was not yurizoku decided should be the right word. :-)

      Cheers,

      Erica
      (who is at last on her own computer....phew)
    • atheniag
      ... The word shoujoai was created because the person who created it was trying to distance what she considered to be innocent love stories from that nasty
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 6, 2005
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Claude Smith <ossadagowah@y...> wrote:
        >
        > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
        > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
        > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
        > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
        > standards) has its own legitimacy.

        The word "shoujoai" was created because the person who created it was
        trying to distance what she considered to be innocent love stories
        from that nasty ole' yuri, which was porn.

        In my entirely personal opinion, its time to let the term die. It
        reeks of a fear of explicit sexuality that I (again, personally)think
        we need to shed. The community that created the word was the same
        that insisted, with a zealous fervor that the shounenai that they
        loved was not, in no way, even remotely yaoi. The explicit sex was
        simply a by product of the intense romaticism and beauty of the thing
        and was not porn.

        I feel no particular loyalty to this outdated and immature point of
        view.

        Don't get me wrong - I don't hate the word shoujoai. I strongly
        dislike that it has come to mean some kinds of not
        explicit "romantic" lesbian relationships, except where people simply
        don't know or like the word yuri, when it becomes anything f/f.

        And, as you say...things change. At Yuricon 2005 in Tokyo, I and some
        of the leading yuri managaka and writers and Tokyo simply decided to
        reinvent the word. So, there. :p

        I think its fair to say that, as the person who founded and runs the
        largest yuri organization in the world and the only publisher of yuri
        publications in the west, I'm allowed a teeny little leeway in
        insisting on the word *I* want, as opposed to that of someone else,
        who created a word to proctect herself (and other women) from the
        label of "pervy lesbians". :-)

        Let's call shoujaoi and shounenai what they are - outdated terms.
        Yaoi and Yuri will, as genres, be around for a while and that's the
        important thing.

        Cheers,

        Erica
      • Johann Chua
        ... The problem is that they re not even widely used enough to be considered part of English. English is lingua franca so other languages making use of
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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          On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 09:00 -0700, Claude Smith wrote:
          > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
          > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
          > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
          > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
          > standards) has its own legitimacy.

          The problem is that they're not even widely used enough to be considered
          part of English. English is lingua franca so other languages making use
          of non-standard English is to be expected, never mind all the various
          Englishes in use around the world.

          Japanese is the official language in just one country so it's best to
          stay true to the source.
        • Trishane Lee
          When I buy manga they tend to have Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai printed on the binding so that is how I refer to them when catorigaizing them ... The problem is
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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            When I buy manga they tend to have Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai printed on the binding so that is how I refer to them when catorigaizing them

            Johann Chua <johannchua@...> wrote:
            On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 09:00 -0700, Claude Smith wrote:
            > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
            > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
            > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
            > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
            > standards) has its own legitimacy.

            The problem is that they're not even widely used enough to be considered
            part of English.  English is lingua franca so other languages making use
            of non-standard English is to be expected, never mind all the various
            Englishes in use around the world.

            Japanese is the official language in just one country so it's best to
            stay true to the source.

            __________________________________________________
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          • Jen
            ... protect herself (and other women) from... pervy lesbians . :-) The quote above may have been abridged in the interest of keeping quotes down to a
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...> wrote:
              >
              > "...as opposed to that of someone else, who created a word to
              protect herself (and other women) from... "pervy lesbians". :-)


              The quote above may have been abridged in the interest of keeping
              quotes down to a managable size.

              ^_^





              > Let's call shoujaoi and shounenai what they are - outdated terms.
              > Yaoi and Yuri will, as genres, be around for a while and that's the
              > important thing.


              Maybe we can just dump the whole yaoi and yuri thing, and just file
              the whole thing under "queer"? ^_^

              http://punistation.fuyucorp.biz/puni/Yuri/BB/


              sub-group label elimination is all well and good, but I'm sure there's
              some happy people out there who may just like to read a nice fluffy
              yarn with maybe the odd girly kiss, as opposed to opening up a book
              and getting all that sticky, nekked, drooling stuff.


              Anyway, until the term "yuri" is pushed aside for the cooler, more
              fashionable term ("Sei"), enjoy the glory days as Yuri Grande.

              ^_^



              Kisses XXOOXX
              Jen
            • unclero@lycos.nl
              ... Ahhh... *bangs head against wall* So that s why those people I was talking with during a party at the Japanese embassy, looked as if they were witnessing
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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                > That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
                > refers to child porn in Japan.
                >
                > It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
                > go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
                > asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)

                Ahhh... *bangs head against wall*

                So that's why those people I was talking with during a party at the Japanese
                embassy, looked as if they were witnessing burning water...

                I don't think I can ever apply for a visa anymore >_<;;;;;;.


                - Uncle Ro'
              • Jesse "Marduk" James S.
                ... It s ironic and quite inconvinient when there s a shift in meaning for a term in it s area of origin, but this shift isn t largely known in other areas
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 9, 2005
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                  unclero@... wrote:

                  > > That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
                  > > refers to child porn in Japan.
                  > >
                  > > It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
                  > > go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
                  > > asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)

                  It's ironic and quite inconvinient when there's a shift in meaning for a
                  term in it's area of origin, but this shift isn't largely known in other
                  areas using the term (or those areas have their own usage that from the
                  start somewhat diverged from the original meaning; and then there's a
                  shift; and then there's connonations and implications and nuances
                  and--oh, Lord, I seem to have gone cross-eyed.)

                  Like otaku. It seems to me that the term's evolving similarly to 'geek'
                  in the US; starting to loosen it's creepier connonations (more slowly,
                  though....most people nowadays don't even remember that a geek was the
                  dude in a side show who bit off chicken heads; but I digress) and become
                  more of a term usable in a prideful manner. Someone who knows; am I
                  [anywhere near] right? It just seemed that way to me. Or so Genshiken
                  would lead one to believe >.>......XD

                  ~MardukZero
                  -Can we go to the place where we're forgiven?-
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