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Re: [Yuricon] Digest Number 1588

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  • Claude Smith
    These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use in describing these pairings and relationships, and it seems odd for us to judge them by the
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 6, 2005
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      These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
      in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
      seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
      usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
      standards) has its own legitimacy.

      There are certainly examples of wasei eigo in Japanese
      where the phrase is either not what we would say or has no
      real meaning in english at all, but we need to accept these
      in stride and recognize them as part of a language, and we
      need to accept shounen-ai and shoujo-ai's use and different
      meanings in English as well.

      C. Smith

      "You are a sacrifice article that I cut rough up now." - Count Dooku
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    • Chalcahuite
      ... Erica s point, I believe, was not that either of those terms are incorrect, per se, but that both of those terms are falling out of favor. The way yuri and
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 6, 2005
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        On Sep 6, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Claude Smith wrote:


        These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
        in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
        seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
        usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
        standards) has its own legitimacy.

        There are certainly examples of wasei eigo in Japanese
        where the phrase is either not what we would say or has no
        real meaning in english at all, but we need to accept these
        in stride and recognize them as part of a language, and we
        need to accept shounen-ai and shoujo-ai's use and different
        meanings in English as well.   

        Erica's point, I believe, was not that either of those terms are incorrect, per se, but that both of those terms are falling out of favor. The way yuri and yaoi/Boys Love have encompassed what used to be distinguished as shounen ai and shoujo ai has made the use of those terms redundant.  
        Sure, some people will still claim a distinction where there isn't anymore, but gathering that American conventions only have yaoi and yuri panels, and they both include content that used to be considered separate as shonen/shoujo ai is pretty good evidence that shoujo/shounen ai are no longer current terms. You could buy Yaoi or Yuri paddles at Otakon, and various I [heart] Yuri/Yaoi merchandise, but no shounen/shoujo ai merchandise to be found anywhere.
        The Japanese and American use of the term yuri is, for all intents and purposes, identical; The difference in terminology is between Yaoi and Boys Love, Yaoi is western and Boys Love is Japanese, but both mean the same thing. Though if you say you're into Yaoi while in Japan, they'll think you're a pedophile, so it's important to know which to use where. ;) 
      • atheniag
        ... The way yuri and yaoi/Boys Love have encompassed what used to ... That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that refers to child
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 6, 2005
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          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
          > On Sep 6, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Claude Smith wrote:
          >
          The way yuri and yaoi/Boys Love have encompassed what used to
          > be distinguished as shounen ai and shoujo ai has made the use of
          > those terms redundant.

          That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
          refers to child porn in Japan.

          It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
          go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
          asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)


          > Sure, some people will still claim a distinction where there isn't
          > anymore, but gathering that American conventions only have yaoi
          and
          > yuri panels, and they both include content that used to be
          considered
          > separate as shonen/shoujo ai is pretty good evidence that shoujo/
          > shounen ai are no longer current terms. You could buy Yaoi or Yuri
          > paddles at Otakon, and various I [heart] Yuri/Yaoi merchandise,
          but
          > no shounen/shoujo ai merchandise to be found anywhere.

          Quite right, Serge.

          I'm personally strongly against a distinction between stories that
          are "romance" and those that have "sex" as if those two things are
          not connected. Sex does, in my experience, include romance, and
          romance often leads to sex. It seems silly, not to say childish to
          insist that there is some sort of rating system inherent in the,
          terminology. There are a few publishers who know use "Girls Love" the
          way most are using "Boys Love" - as a genre name. But there is no
          specific sex/romance split.

          This is likely because the Japanese simply don't have the age/sex
          issues we have in the West, but I also like to think that its because
          it simply complicates matters uneccesarily.

          Yuri, as we define it at Yuricon, does NOT mean porn, nor does it
          mean only stories that have explicit sex. Yuri refers to all stories
          that include relationships between women that include immensely close
          emotional bonds, akogare/admiration and/or physical desire and, of
          course, love.

          Bottom line is that the yurizoku, us lesbians, want a word for us and
          *our* stories. So, we've decided that *we* should define what yuri is
          and basically, I see no reason to use some word that some other
          person who was not yurizoku decided should be the right word. :-)

          Cheers,

          Erica
          (who is at last on her own computer....phew)
        • atheniag
          ... The word shoujoai was created because the person who created it was trying to distance what she considered to be innocent love stories from that nasty
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 6, 2005
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Claude Smith <ossadagowah@y...> wrote:
            >
            > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
            > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
            > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
            > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
            > standards) has its own legitimacy.

            The word "shoujoai" was created because the person who created it was
            trying to distance what she considered to be innocent love stories
            from that nasty ole' yuri, which was porn.

            In my entirely personal opinion, its time to let the term die. It
            reeks of a fear of explicit sexuality that I (again, personally)think
            we need to shed. The community that created the word was the same
            that insisted, with a zealous fervor that the shounenai that they
            loved was not, in no way, even remotely yaoi. The explicit sex was
            simply a by product of the intense romaticism and beauty of the thing
            and was not porn.

            I feel no particular loyalty to this outdated and immature point of
            view.

            Don't get me wrong - I don't hate the word shoujoai. I strongly
            dislike that it has come to mean some kinds of not
            explicit "romantic" lesbian relationships, except where people simply
            don't know or like the word yuri, when it becomes anything f/f.

            And, as you say...things change. At Yuricon 2005 in Tokyo, I and some
            of the leading yuri managaka and writers and Tokyo simply decided to
            reinvent the word. So, there. :p

            I think its fair to say that, as the person who founded and runs the
            largest yuri organization in the world and the only publisher of yuri
            publications in the west, I'm allowed a teeny little leeway in
            insisting on the word *I* want, as opposed to that of someone else,
            who created a word to proctect herself (and other women) from the
            label of "pervy lesbians". :-)

            Let's call shoujaoi and shounenai what they are - outdated terms.
            Yaoi and Yuri will, as genres, be around for a while and that's the
            important thing.

            Cheers,

            Erica
          • Johann Chua
            ... The problem is that they re not even widely used enough to be considered part of English. English is lingua franca so other languages making use of
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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              On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 09:00 -0700, Claude Smith wrote:
              > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
              > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
              > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
              > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
              > standards) has its own legitimacy.

              The problem is that they're not even widely used enough to be considered
              part of English. English is lingua franca so other languages making use
              of non-standard English is to be expected, never mind all the various
              Englishes in use around the world.

              Japanese is the official language in just one country so it's best to
              stay true to the source.
            • Trishane Lee
              When I buy manga they tend to have Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai printed on the binding so that is how I refer to them when catorigaizing them ... The problem is
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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                When I buy manga they tend to have Shounen-ai and Shoujo-ai printed on the binding so that is how I refer to them when catorigaizing them

                Johann Chua <johannchua@...> wrote:
                On Tue, 2005-09-06 at 09:00 -0700, Claude Smith wrote:
                > These phrases have come into use in Western fandom for use
                > in describing these pairings and relationships, and it
                > seems odd for us to judge them by the official Japanese
                > usage. Our own use of them (however incorrect by "real"
                > standards) has its own legitimacy.

                The problem is that they're not even widely used enough to be considered
                part of English.  English is lingua franca so other languages making use
                of non-standard English is to be expected, never mind all the various
                Englishes in use around the world.

                Japanese is the official language in just one country so it's best to
                stay true to the source.

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              • Jen
                ... protect herself (and other women) from... pervy lesbians . :-) The quote above may have been abridged in the interest of keeping quotes down to a
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "...as opposed to that of someone else, who created a word to
                  protect herself (and other women) from... "pervy lesbians". :-)


                  The quote above may have been abridged in the interest of keeping
                  quotes down to a managable size.

                  ^_^





                  > Let's call shoujaoi and shounenai what they are - outdated terms.
                  > Yaoi and Yuri will, as genres, be around for a while and that's the
                  > important thing.


                  Maybe we can just dump the whole yaoi and yuri thing, and just file
                  the whole thing under "queer"? ^_^

                  http://punistation.fuyucorp.biz/puni/Yuri/BB/


                  sub-group label elimination is all well and good, but I'm sure there's
                  some happy people out there who may just like to read a nice fluffy
                  yarn with maybe the odd girly kiss, as opposed to opening up a book
                  and getting all that sticky, nekked, drooling stuff.


                  Anyway, until the term "yuri" is pushed aside for the cooler, more
                  fashionable term ("Sei"), enjoy the glory days as Yuri Grande.

                  ^_^



                  Kisses XXOOXX
                  Jen
                • unclero@lycos.nl
                  ... Ahhh... *bangs head against wall* So that s why those people I was talking with during a party at the Japanese embassy, looked as if they were witnessing
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 7, 2005
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                    > That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
                    > refers to child porn in Japan.
                    >
                    > It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
                    > go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
                    > asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)

                    Ahhh... *bangs head against wall*

                    So that's why those people I was talking with during a party at the Japanese
                    embassy, looked as if they were witnessing burning water...

                    I don't think I can ever apply for a visa anymore >_<;;;;;;.


                    - Uncle Ro'
                  • Jesse "Marduk" James S.
                    ... It s ironic and quite inconvinient when there s a shift in meaning for a term in it s area of origin, but this shift isn t largely known in other areas
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 9, 2005
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                      unclero@... wrote:

                      > > That, and the fact that shounenai is now considered to be a term that
                      > > refers to child porn in Japan.
                      > >
                      > > It may not seem important to keep up to date on such terms, until you
                      > > go into a store and ask for the shounenai doujinshi, only to be
                      > > asked, politely, to leave the country...now. :-)

                      It's ironic and quite inconvinient when there's a shift in meaning for a
                      term in it's area of origin, but this shift isn't largely known in other
                      areas using the term (or those areas have their own usage that from the
                      start somewhat diverged from the original meaning; and then there's a
                      shift; and then there's connonations and implications and nuances
                      and--oh, Lord, I seem to have gone cross-eyed.)

                      Like otaku. It seems to me that the term's evolving similarly to 'geek'
                      in the US; starting to loosen it's creepier connonations (more slowly,
                      though....most people nowadays don't even remember that a geek was the
                      dude in a side show who bit off chicken heads; but I digress) and become
                      more of a term usable in a prideful manner. Someone who knows; am I
                      [anywhere near] right? It just seemed that way to me. Or so Genshiken
                      would lead one to believe >.>......XD

                      ~MardukZero
                      -Can we go to the place where we're forgiven?-
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