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Re: [Yuricon] Re: Mai HiME ep 23 (Freaking big spoilers, yo)

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  • dchan
    ... Well, I m not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn t deny it I d say it happened but not in the context that we expect. Natsuki s story seemed to be
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2005
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      mellowrg <mellowrg@...> wrote:

      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
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      Well, I'm not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn't deny it I'd
      say it happened but not in the context that we expect.

      Natsuki"s story seemed to be based on that. Did her mother really
      betray her? Or did she feel that her chances of survival with Searrs
      with be better (considering what a rotten egg the first district is)

      did Shizuru really molest her in her sleep?


      well i think Natsuki has been through a lot lately, and with all that and then Shizuru kissing her, she probably just can't handle so many shocks and these sudden realizations. it could be the reason why she reacted the way she did, i could be wrong. the word "trust" is probably lost from her mind.

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    • ivevei
      ... Waits for the raw to dl... The preview seems to indicate Haruka buys the farm. No! The writers mislead us yet again! What happens is Yukino calls forth
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 4, 2005
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, dchan <d_chan126@y...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > mellowrg <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
        > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I few more notes:
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        > Well, I'm not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn't deny it I'd
        > say it happened but not in the context that we expect.
        >
        > Natsuki"s story seemed to be based on that. Did her mother really
        > betray her? Or did she feel that her chances of survival with Searrs
        > with be better (considering what a rotten egg the first district is)
        >
        > did Shizuru really molest her in her sleep?
        >

        Waits for the raw to dl...

        The preview seems to indicate Haruka buys the farm. No! The writers
        mislead us yet again!

        What happens is Yukino calls forth Diana. Shizuru cuts Diana up, but
        right before the killing blow, Natsuki - desperate to stop this
        madness - calls forth Duran to block... only to have Duran run through
        by Shizuru!

        Duran *_* kaboom
        Shizuru o_o starts turning into green sparklies...
        Natsuki o_O screams in shock
        Shizuru to Natsuki: "No, it had to be this way, I had to make you hate
        me so you would kill me. Now you'll be safe, forever..." *disappears*
        Natsuki: "SHIZURUUUUUUU!!!"

        Yeah, we wish :P
      • atheniag
        ... I agree - I got the distinct feeling that, based on Haruka s OTT accusations, Natsuki assumed that Shizuru stole alot more than a single kiss. ... Haruka
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 5, 2005
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          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
          >

          > > > Spoilers
          > > > .
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          >
          > SPOILERS!
          >
          > This was an extremely traumatic episode. A little too much happened
          > everywhere so I will just focus on Shizuru x Natsuki.

          > Alone in the bushes, Natsuki reacts badly. Shock, betrayal, disgust,
          > disbelief. There is one highly disturbing sequence (spoiler image!).
          >
          >
          > I think this more of an "imagined" than real event. Only serves to
          > slam home exactly how Natsuki feels to suddenly discover that your
          > only friend is a lesbian who wants you and is sick enough to force
          > herself on you when your defenses are down.

          I agree - I got the distinct feeling that, based on Haruka's OTT
          accusations, Natsuki assumed that Shizuru stole alot more than a
          single kiss.

          >

          > And that's about it. BTW, Yukino denies that what she feels for
          Haruka
          > is the same as Shizuru's feelings. Actually, I can sort of
          understand
          > that. Yukino cares deeply for Haruka, but I don't think she actually
          > desires Haruka on a sexual level. Unlike our resident pervert of a
          > shachou.

          I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone safe
          and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
          returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster than
          Yukino could imagine.

          >
          > My only suspicion, aside from the fact that the writers write it so
          > the HiMEs would be as traumatized as possible, is, "Why the heck
          would
          > Shizuru want to fight Yukino?" No argument over sexuality or
          invasion
          > of privacy warrants hauling out your naginata and demon squid from
          > hell!

          She's been putting up with Haruka's complaints for at least two years
          now - I think she just got sick of it. It's one thing to have Haruka
          rag on her endlessly at school, but this &^%$! just showed up at her
          private refuge, interrupted her time with Natsuki, then started
          screaming about how unnatural she was...nothing personal, but if i had
          a magic naginata to pull out about then, I probably would. :-)

          >
          > Personally this episode left me somewhat depressed as well. Perhaps
          > Natsuki overreacted (duh, you'd think she'd have a clue). I admit
          > Shizuru overstepped the bounds of decency by stealing that kiss. But
          > what struck me was how Natsuki's reaction could be so typical, in
          fact
          > it's more realistic. How would you feel if your best friend was
          > revealed to want you? In the US, there's a good chance they pull out
          a
          > gun and shoot!

          Not in any crowd I run with. lol I remember clearly a (straight, or so
          she would like to believe) friend once asking me, a little
          hysterically, what to say to a female co-worker who told her that she
          had a nice ass. I looked at her ass, agreed that it was nice and told
          her to say "Thank you."


          > No, clearly Natsuki is not quite as forgiving as Himeko. And Shizuru
          > doesn't feel as noble as Chikane :P

          That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
          has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)

          My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers will
          go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and the 9-year
          old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then come back to
          life and live happily ever after and get married and have babies"
          fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....

          Cheers,

          Erica
        • Chalcahuite
          ... Everything is now in place for each remaining HiME to have their own very special tragic ending, in the classical/Shakespearian sense. A heroic flaw that
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 5, 2005
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            On Mar 5, 2005, at 1:45 PM, atheniag wrote:

            >
            >
            > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
            >>
            >
            >>>> Spoilers
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            >>>> .
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            >>>> REALLY
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            >
            >>
            >> SPOILERS!
            >>
            >> This was an extremely traumatic episode. A little too much happened
            >> everywhere so I will just focus on Shizuru x Natsuki.

            Everything is now in place for each remaining HiME to have their own
            very special tragic ending, in the classical/Shakespearian sense. A
            heroic flaw that brings our lovely ladies low. I like these characters
            and as much as I want them all to have a happy ending, like the Black
            Prince, I'm really enjoying watching them suffer.

            >
            >> Alone in the bushes, Natsuki reacts badly. Shock, betrayal, disgust,
            >> disbelief. There is one highly disturbing sequence (spoiler image!).
            >>
            >>
            >> I think this more of an "imagined" than real event. Only serves to
            >> slam home exactly how Natsuki feels to suddenly discover that your
            >> only friend is a lesbian who wants you and is sick enough to force
            >> herself on you when your defenses are down.
            >
            > I agree - I got the distinct feeling that, based on Haruka's OTT
            > accusations, Natsuki assumed that Shizuru stole alot more than a
            > single kiss.

            Remember what I said last time? "Natsuki has had her world shattered
            this episode, and is the last of the main trio to do so, hers isn't as
            devastating as Mai's or Mikoto's, because Shizuru is there. "
            Obviously, I spoke too soon. Things don't look good at all for these
            two. Shizuru, in a moment, of weakness, succumbs to temptation and
            kisses a sleeping Natsuki (though it's a situation I totally
            understand) and Natsuki, having lost the only thing she could trust in,
            can't trust anyone now, and presumes the worst about the only person
            she knows cares about her.
            Natsuki has nothing at this point, no MIP, no Duran, and no purpose,
            since they all hinged on the same thing, But, I'm not sure what she's
            going to do at this point. Mai had Tate, and Mikoto had Ani-ue/Reito
            left after their nadir, and I thought Shizuru would be that for
            Natsuki. I still hope so, since anyone else at this point would feel
            totally out of left field. (The only plausible alternative to Shizuru,
            at this point, is to have her faith in her mother restored.) I still
            don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from Shizuru,
            even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's still
            Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at this point.

            >> And that's about it. BTW, Yukino denies that what she feels for
            > Haruka
            >> is the same as Shizuru's feelings. Actually, I can sort of
            > understand
            >> that. Yukino cares deeply for Haruka, but I don't think she actually
            >> desires Haruka on a sexual level. Unlike our resident pervert of a
            >> shachou.
            >
            > I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone safe
            > and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
            > returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster than
            > Yukino could imagine.

            You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)

            >
            >>
            >> My only suspicion, aside from the fact that the writers write it so
            >> the HiMEs would be as traumatized as possible, is, "Why the heck
            > would
            >> Shizuru want to fight Yukino?" No argument over sexuality or
            > invasion
            >> of privacy warrants hauling out your naginata and demon squid from
            >> hell!
            >
            > She's been putting up with Haruka's complaints for at least two years
            > now - I think she just got sick of it. It's one thing to have Haruka
            > rag on her endlessly at school, but this &^%$! just showed up at her
            > private refuge, interrupted her time with Natsuki, then started
            > screaming about how unnatural she was...nothing personal, but if i had
            > a magic naginata to pull out about then, I probably would. :-)

            This might be my Shizuru bias speaking, but I thought she was handling
            the situation reasonably well, all things considered. Haruka and Yukino
            were mainly responsible for escalating things. And I don't think
            Shizuru intends to fight Yukino unless she has to. I don't think we've
            ever seen her attack first, she always reacts defensively, but with
            overwhelming force. She never starts fights, but she sure as hell
            finishes them.

            >
            >>
            >> Personally this episode left me somewhat depressed as well. Perhaps
            >> Natsuki overreacted (duh, you'd think she'd have a clue). I admit
            >> Shizuru overstepped the bounds of decency by stealing that kiss. But
            >> what struck me was how Natsuki's reaction could be so typical, in
            > fact
            >> it's more realistic. How would you feel if your best friend was
            >> revealed to want you? In the US, there's a good chance they pull out
            > a
            >> gun and shoot!
            >
            > Not in any crowd I run with. lol I remember clearly a (straight, or so
            > she would like to believe) friend once asking me, a little
            > hysterically, what to say to a female co-worker who told her that she
            > had a nice ass. I looked at her ass, agreed that it was nice and told
            > her to say "Thank you."
            >
            >
            >> No, clearly Natsuki is not quite as forgiving as Himeko. And Shizuru
            >> doesn't feel as noble as Chikane :P

            I'm going to have to disagree, Chikane was much more unstable than
            Shizuru is proving to be.

            > That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
            > has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)

            Though she's not really helping herself, when she says she'd do
            ANYTHING for the sake of her MIP.

            >
            > My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers will
            > go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and the 9-year
            > old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then come back to
            > life and live happily ever after and get married and have babies"
            > fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....

            With good cause. Though I'm hoping to be surprised in a good way.
            We'll know more in 5 days.

            Next episode, more despair, more suffering, more fights, and more
            casualties. Yay!! LOL.

            -==-
            Serge
            http://ximatl.blogspot.com
          • Ka-chan
            ... SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SPOILERS ... There s been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki s conscience of late...which is why
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 6, 2005
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
              SPOILERS
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              SPOILERS

              > Shizuru, in a moment, of weakness, succumbs to temptation and
              > kisses a sleeping Natsuki (though it's a situation I totally
              > understand) and Natsuki, having lost the only thing she could trust
              > in, can't trust anyone now, and presumes the worst about the only
              > person she knows cares about her.

              There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
              late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
              people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
              In sane mind.

              > Natsuki has nothing at this point, no MIP, no Duran, and no purpose,
              > since they all hinged on the same thing.

              <snip>
              And a shame indeed. She's lost will to fight...whether she realizes it
              or not...and without that will Dhuran will never answer her summons. I
              can only think confusedly on this developement. We have the 3
              valkyries - one of which without a child, one with a child on a
              raging, burning warpath of destruction, and one so completely lost in
              herself that she can't even summon her child. Perhaps it's not so much
              that they're meant to have a similar role (which we've sorta been
              assuming, correct?), but that each has their *own* role to fullfill as
              a valkyrie. Now what that might be...I've no clue. :|

              > I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
              > Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
              > still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
              > this point.

              While that make make many a sense to Shizuru, I doubt it would so to
              Natsuki. You'll be lucky if she has that line of logic right now, or
              even if she does to truly care about it. I've little doubts (from the
              preview of 23) that she's making well into the 'okay, I'm so lost that
              wandering the streets will seem to make better sense to me than living
              my life right now and hopefully a car will make me a pancake as I do
              so' mentality.

              >> I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone
              >> safe and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
              >> returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster
              >> than Yukino could imagine.

              Well said, Erica.

              > You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)

              Even better said, Serge. ;D

              >> She's been putting up with Haruka's complaints for at least two
              >> years now - I think she just got sick of it. It's one thing to have
              >> Haruka rag on her endlessly at school, but this &^%$! just showed
              >> up at her private refuge, interrupted her time with Natsuki, then
              >> started screaming about how unnatural she was...nothing personal,
              >> but if i had a magic naginata to pull out about then, I probably
              >> would. :-)

              Totally with you here. And let's face it...the japanese are even more
              particular about 'privacy courtesy' when it comes to houses. And we
              all can pretty well see Shizuru's a typically practical girl. ^^;

              > This might be my Shizuru bias speaking, but I thought she was
              > handling the situation reasonably well, all things considered.
              > Haruka and Yukino were mainly responsible for escalating things.

              I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
              it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have
              deserved it for so unreasonably attacking her). ;) I can understand
              where Yukino's coming from, but she really acted overly rash here. And
              Haruka even worse so. Which is making Shizuru trip out...and that's
              gonna spell something nasty (and some respect lost in my book) for
              Shizuru.

              > And I don't think Shizuru intends to fight Yukino unless she has to.
              > I don't think we've ever seen her attack first, she always reacts
              > defensively, but with overwhelming force. She never starts fights,
              > but she sure as hell finishes them.

              Again, I dunno about that. ^^; Remember that she was the one who
              attacked Nao full-out in 20? And Yukino and Haruka came to calling
              *Natsuki* dirty. Which is why Haruka got slapped back. Haruka's pushed
              a bit too far into Shizuru's threshold for insult...in that she can
              take all the crap about herself...but *damned* if she's going to let
              them drag Natsuki into it.

              What *I'm* trying to figure out is if she's going to be directly
              attacking Haruka for insulting Natsuki and Yukino attempts to deflect,
              or whether it's something where even more heinous altercations are
              sent out, and *that's* what makes the 2 of them snap to fight. Shizuru
              and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
              HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
              know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
              for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing
              the trump card of her anonimity to the other HiME to the fullest so
              far, so perhaps she doesn't plan on breaking the streak. And what
              better way to do so than by taking out the HiME that sees that she is
              one...

              >> That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
              >> has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)

              > Though she's not really helping herself, when she says she'd do
              > ANYTHING for the sake of her MIP.

              Well yes, but do you think you'd really want to show your 'oni' face
              to the person you love and are trying to protect on purpose? Keep in
              mind, she doesn't know Natsuki's there...and would most likely act
              differently if she did know she was. Or, if Natsuki did come out and
              told her to stop, I'd like to think that she would, being drained of
              her ability to keep up her oni-ness. But then...maybe madness comes
              with the rage...it wouldn't be unthinkable.

              >> My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers
              >> will go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and
              >> the 9-year old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then
              >> come back to life and live happily ever after and get married and
              >> have babies" fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....

              > With good cause. Though I'm hoping to be surprised in a good way.
              > We'll know more in 5 days.

              I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at
              least the next year of that from KnM. I'd rather have them all die
              tragically and never ever be able to return. And perhaps that's what
              Alyssa's song really means. Add more to the fire!! ^_~

              > Next episode, more despair, more suffering, more fights, and more
              > casualties. Yay!! LOL.

              Hey, but we were at casualties 0 this episode. Unless you're wishing
              to count Nao's and Shizuru's growing insanity...but I'm all for more
              boobs. Yes, indeed. I think that's one thing we might all agree upon,
              anyway.

              ~Ka-chan~
            • ivevei
              Um, Spoilers again. ... I know we, and the rest of the Mai-HiME watching world, have been going back and forth on Shizuru s actions and their justifiability.
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 6, 2005
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                Um, Spoilers again.

                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Ka-chan" <firesenshimars@y...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
                > SPOILERS
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                I know we, and the rest of the Mai-HiME watching world, have been
                going back and forth on Shizuru's actions and their justifiability. At
                this point, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

                On the one hand, Shizuru has always been portrayed as calm and
                collected. She took care of Yukarino in ep 12 (how, and to what end,
                we do not know...). She is probably in contact with Mashiro is some
                degree, as she appeared at the Rijichou mansion when Natsuki was
                looking for Mashiro.

                In ep 21, she's portrayed as the coolest thing since green tea
                icecream, well, barring that eerie shot of her demon eyes.

                So of course the whole world is cheering on Shachou... at which point
                the Writers-from-Hell decide to cut her down in the most
                stomach-turning manner possible.

                And yet, her guilt is not certain. That scene behind the doors can be
                construed either way - that it was what Yukino actually, or that it
                was simply Natsuki's conjecture in a moment of shock. Yukino's
                dialogue is rather ambiguous. "I saw, just like you kissed her just
                now, what you did to Kuga-san who was asleep... How could you do that
                to somebody who trusted you completely as a friend!"

                Could it be that the writers are simply messing with us yet again?
                They shown Shizuru in the worst light possible, adding Natsuki's
                negative reaction into this mix. Then, spoilers that imply Diana's
                demise. Oh dear... As we have seen from Mai-HiME's spoilers so far,
                that usually means a curve ball.

                Perhaps I'm grasping at straws. I like Shizuru far too much, and can
                only pray that the writers too will treat her with more respect than
                to banish her as a despicable lesbian-with-no-self-control. Even if
                Natsuki doesn't feel the same, I hope that somehow Shizuru is
                vindicated, proven to Natsuki that she in fact did not take more than
                that one kiss from a sleeping Natsuki.

                Okay, so she also ran her fingers through her hair. That's forgivable ^^;;

                Some Japanese sites have speculated that Natsuki's mother will be
                shown to be alive and working hard as a SEARSS researcher for
                Natsuki's sake, and hence Duran shall arise once again, stronger than
                ever. I hope so, because otherwise it only leaves Takeda-sempai *turns
                around and heaves*

                > There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
                > late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
                > people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
                > In sane mind.

                Admittedly, Natsuki is still in shock. Still, if she had any shred of
                romantic feeling for Shizuru, I doubt she would have reacted in that
                way. I don't know if she will hate Shizuru (we see her standing behind
                Shizuru in the preview...?!), but I don't think there's much chance
                that she does return Shizuru's feelings.

                In a way, I have to respect the turn of events. How realistic is it to
                assume that everything ends happily ever after, shoujo ai included?
                The way the series was going, that may have been optimistic. It seems
                that shoujo ai is a trend right now, and perhaps the writers simply
                used it as a convenient plot device.

                Ahem. Excuse me while I go and curse them for a couple minutes.

                > > I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
                > > Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
                > > still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
                > > this point.

                I'm afraid that Shizuru actually goes poof in ep 23... :P

                > >> I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone
                > >> safe and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
                > >> returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster
                > >> than Yukino could imagine.
                >
                > Well said, Erica.
                >
                > > You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)
                >
                > Even better said, Serge. ;D

                Hahahaha... I suppose so. Yukino strikes me as very deferential and
                conservative. Hence, she wouldn't even dare consider the possibility
                of anything more than a platonic relationship. In a sense, she's the
                one who would do anything for her MIP, including adapting her own
                feelings and expectations to what Haruka wants (or what Yukino thinks
                Haruka wants).

                > I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
                > it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have

                Ah, I thought that was an excellent rejoiner. In fact, I would be
                cheering Shizuru on like no tomorrow, if not for that one little
                behind-the-doors scene. Imagine how things would be if that sequence
                had not been there. Anyway, I think we the viewers are still getting
                manipulated like heck.

                > Shizuru
                > and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
                > HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
                > know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
                > for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing

                Seconded. Something weird and illogical is going on. No reason to
                fight. Well, that's my take on it anyway. I hope stuff actually makes
                more sense in ep 23.

                > I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at

                Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Things have degenerated so far,
                and look to get far worse, that if you don't reset, it'd be a Real
                Sh!tty Ending, and if you reset, it'd be the Copout Ending from Hell.

                At this point, we would have to rely on fanfics and doujinshi :P
              • Chalcahuite
                ... Well, we still don t know too much of what she s thinking yet. That ll be episode 23 I gather. Though, if Natsuki were really disgusted about Shizuru s
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 6, 2005
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                  On Mar 6, 2005, at 5:23 AM, Ka-chan wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
                  > SPOILERS
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                  > SPOILERS
                  >
                  >> Shizuru, in a moment, of weakness, succumbs to temptation and
                  >> kisses a sleeping Natsuki (though it's a situation I totally
                  >> understand) and Natsuki, having lost the only thing she could trust
                  >> in, can't trust anyone now, and presumes the worst about the only
                  >> person she knows cares about her.
                  >
                  > There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
                  > late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
                  > people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
                  > In sane mind.

                  Well, we still don't know too much of what she's thinking yet. That'll
                  be episode 23 I gather. Though, if Natsuki were really disgusted about
                  Shizuru's antics, I think she would have flat out rejected her in 19.
                  But, she didn't and I just don't see them throwing that away yet.

                  >
                  >> Natsuki has nothing at this point, no MIP, no Duran, and no purpose,
                  >> since they all hinged on the same thing.
                  >
                  > <snip>
                  > And a shame indeed. She's lost will to fight...whether she realizes it
                  > or not...and without that will Dhuran will never answer her summons.

                  It's because she's lost faith in her mother, who was, apparently, her
                  MIP. Without a MIP, a HiME can't summon their Child.

                  > I
                  > can only think confusedly on this developement. We have the 3
                  > valkyries - one of which without a child, one with a child on a
                  > raging, burning warpath of destruction, and one so completely lost in
                  > herself that she can't even summon her child. Perhaps it's not so much
                  > that they're meant to have a similar role (which we've sorta been
                  > assuming, correct?), but that each has their *own* role to fullfill as
                  > a valkyrie. Now what that might be...I've no clue. :|



                  >
                  >> I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
                  >> Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
                  >> still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
                  >> this point.
                  >
                  > While that make make many a sense to Shizuru, I doubt it would so to
                  > Natsuki. You'll be lucky if she has that line of logic right now, or
                  > even if she does to truly care about it. I've little doubts (from the
                  > preview of 23) that she's making well into the 'okay, I'm so lost that
                  > wandering the streets will seem to make better sense to me than living
                  > my life right now and hopefully a car will make me a pancake as I do
                  > so' mentality.

                  No, no, she'll do her best thinking wandering the streets in the rain,
                  and as soon as she has her near death experience, she'll have her
                  epiphany and right herself.

                  >> This might be my Shizuru bias speaking, but I thought she was
                  >> handling the situation reasonably well, all things considered.
                  >> Haruka and Yukino were mainly responsible for escalating things.
                  >
                  > I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
                  > it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have
                  > deserved it for so unreasonably attacking her). ;)

                  After being called "unnatural" I'd say it was tit for tat. But, we can
                  probably relate it back to her fighting style. Respond when provoked
                  with overwhelming force.

                  >> And I don't think Shizuru intends to fight Yukino unless she has to.
                  >> I don't think we've ever seen her attack first, she always reacts
                  >> defensively, but with overwhelming force. She never starts fights,
                  >> but she sure as hell finishes them.
                  >
                  > Again, I dunno about that. ^^; Remember that she was the one who
                  > attacked Nao full-out in 20?

                  In 21? She warned off Nao, Nao laughed and seized her naginata with her
                  webbing. So Shizuru brought out the big guns, and made sure Nao wasn't
                  a threat anymore. Sure, it's like swatting a fly with a 105 mm
                  Howitzer, but it gets the job done. ;)

                  > And Yukino and Haruka came to calling
                  > *Natsuki* dirty. Which is why Haruka got slapped back. Haruka's pushed
                  > a bit too far into Shizuru's threshold for insult...in that she can
                  > take all the crap about herself...but *damned* if she's going to let
                  > them drag Natsuki into it.
                  >
                  > What *I'm* trying to figure out is if she's going to be directly
                  > attacking Haruka for insulting Natsuki and Yukino attempts to deflect,
                  > or whether it's something where even more heinous altercations are
                  > sent out, and *that's* what makes the 2 of them snap to fight.

                  Next scene will be Yukino stepping in front of Shizuru and summoning
                  her element, and possibly Diana. More words will be exchanged, but
                  Yukino will make the first move (or possibly goaded into it) and
                  Shizuru will try to end the fight on her move. Which might lead to
                  Haruka's disappearance that they've been hinting at. That's when
                  Natsuki appears, says something harsh to Shizuru and goes running off.

                  > Shizuru
                  > and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
                  > HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
                  > know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
                  > for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing
                  > the trump card of her anonimity to the other HiME to the fullest so
                  > far, so perhaps she doesn't plan on breaking the streak. And what
                  > better way to do so than by taking out the HiME that sees that she is
                  > one...

                  See above.

                  >
                  >>> That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
                  >>> has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)
                  >
                  >> Though she's not really helping herself, when she says she'd do
                  >> ANYTHING for the sake of her MIP.
                  >
                  > Well yes, but do you think you'd really want to show your 'oni' face
                  > to the person you love and are trying to protect on purpose? Keep in
                  > mind, she doesn't know Natsuki's there...and would most likely act
                  > differently if she did know she was. Or, if Natsuki did come out and
                  > told her to stop, I'd like to think that she would, being drained of
                  > her ability to keep up her oni-ness. But then...maybe madness comes
                  > with the rage...it wouldn't be unthinkable.

                  I don't think she'll realize Natsuki's there until after she's dealt
                  with Yukino and Haruka.

                  >
                  >>> My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers
                  >>> will go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and
                  >>> the 9-year old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then
                  >>> come back to life and live happily ever after and get married and
                  >>> have babies" fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....
                  >
                  >> With good cause. Though I'm hoping to be surprised in a good way.
                  >> We'll know more in 5 days.
                  >
                  > I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at
                  > least the next year of that from KnM. I'd rather have them all die
                  > tragically and never ever be able to return. And perhaps that's what
                  > Alyssa's song really means. Add more to the fire!! ^_~

                  I wouldn't mind a true tragic ending either, but I'm pretty sure we're
                  getting a reset. You don't get the downer endings very often, anymore.
                  Though, I'm guessing it'll be a reset to back before the series
                  started, and all the girls get a do over, without the HiME part this
                  time.

                  >
                  >> Next episode, more despair, more suffering, more fights, and more
                  >> casualties. Yay!! LOL.
                  >
                  > Hey, but we were at casualties 0 this episode. Unless you're wishing
                  > to count Nao's and Shizuru's growing insanity...but I'm all for more
                  > boobs. Yes, indeed. I think that's one thing we might all agree upon,
                  > anyway.

                  I was speaking about the series in general. I'm guessing we're getting
                  two Child deaths and our first HiME death next episode. St. Vrus and
                  Diana and Midori will all buy the farm.

                  Oh, and yes, I agree, more boobies = teh win. It's a core philosophy
                  really. :-D

                  -==-
                  Serge
                  http://ximatl.blogspot.com
                • mellowrg
                  We have 3 new girls Mikaze and the gang are gone.... for the first few minutes at least. ^_^;; They re back due to a mechanical and possibly political snafu
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 6, 2005
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                    We have 3 new girls

                    Mikaze and the gang are gone.... for the first few minutes at least. ^_^;;

                    They're back due to a mechanical and possibly political snafu

                    Anyway, I'm just happy we're getting more Stratos4
                  • Chalcahuite
                    ... I find it interesting that Mai, as the title character, doesn t get talked about very much these days. Could also be the crowd I hang with, but I m pretty
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 6, 2005
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                      On Mar 6, 2005, at 6:50 AM, ivevei wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Um, Spoilers again.
                      >
                      > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Ka-chan" <firesenshimars@y...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
                      >> SPOILERS
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >> .
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                      >> .
                      >> .
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                      >> .
                      >> .
                      >
                      > I know we, and the rest of the Mai-HiME watching world, have been
                      > going back and forth on Shizuru's actions and their justifiability. At
                      > this point, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

                      I find it interesting that Mai, as the title character, doesn't get
                      talked about very much these days. Could also be the crowd I hang
                      with, but I'm pretty sure, nobody's spending as much time speculating
                      on Mai and Tate.

                      > So of course the whole world is cheering on Shachou... at which point
                      > the Writers-from-Hell decide to cut her down in the most
                      > stomach-turning manner possible.

                      They probably don't, but I wonder if anybody at Sunrise is tracking the
                      fan reaction and relating it back to the writers.

                      > And yet, her guilt is not certain. That scene behind the doors can be
                      > construed either way - that it was what Yukino actually, or that it
                      > was simply Natsuki's conjecture in a moment of shock. Yukino's
                      > dialogue is rather ambiguous. "I saw, just like you kissed her just
                      > now, what you did to Kuga-san who was asleep... How could you do that
                      > to somebody who trusted you completely as a friend!"
                      >
                      > Could it be that the writers are simply messing with us yet again?

                      Yes.

                      > They shown Shizuru in the worst light possible, adding Natsuki's
                      > negative reaction into this mix. Then, spoilers that imply Diana's
                      > demise. Oh dear... As we have seen from Mai-HiME's spoilers so far,
                      > that usually means a curve ball.

                      The curve ball is that 23 is Midori's last episode. Though, it could
                      be something else, entirely.

                      > Perhaps I'm grasping at straws. I like Shizuru far too much, and can
                      > only pray that the writers too will treat her with more respect than
                      > to banish her as a despicable lesbian-with-no-self-control. Even if
                      > Natsuki doesn't feel the same, I hope that somehow Shizuru is
                      > vindicated, proven to Natsuki that she in fact did not take more than
                      > that one kiss from a sleeping Natsuki.
                      >
                      > Okay, so she also ran her fingers through her hair. That's forgivable
                      > ^^;;

                      Absolutely. I mean, who hasn't stolen a kiss from a sleeping girl. ;)

                      > Some Japanese sites have speculated that Natsuki's mother will be
                      > shown to be alive and working hard as a SEARSS researcher for
                      > Natsuki's sake, and hence Duran shall arise once again, stronger than
                      > ever. I hope so, because otherwise it only leaves Takeda-sempai *turns
                      > around and heaves*

                      The only other possibility that actually would be more credible would
                      be Afro-sensei. (I forget his name.) But, Natsuki's mother returning,
                      would be a bit out left field, but not unprecedented, seeing as Searrs
                      brought her back in the manga.

                      >
                      >> There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
                      >> late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
                      >> people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
                      >> In sane mind.
                      >
                      > Admittedly, Natsuki is still in shock. Still, if she had any shred of
                      > romantic feeling for Shizuru, I doubt she would have reacted in that
                      > way. I don't know if she will hate Shizuru (we see her standing behind
                      > Shizuru in the preview...?!), but I don't think there's much chance
                      > that she does return Shizuru's feelings.

                      She may not have returned them yet, but she didn't reject them when
                      presented with them before. I'm pretty sure she understood Shizuru's
                      meaning, so she could have said flat out she couldn't like Shizuru in
                      that way, but she didn't. So, all hope is not lost yet, but may be in
                      23. ;)

                      > In a way, I have to respect the turn of events. How realistic is it to
                      > assume that everything ends happily ever after, shoujo ai included?
                      > The way the series was going, that may have been optimistic. It seems
                      > that shoujo ai is a trend right now, and perhaps the writers simply
                      > used it as a convenient plot device.

                      Well, if they were to go for a dark, tragic ending then, yes, all the
                      elements are in place for it, and I'd might actually like this
                      direction. Though I prefer a yuri happy ending, I don't mind the dark
                      ending if it's done right. But, it's very rarely done right, so it's
                      always a concern.

                      > Ahem. Excuse me while I go and curse them for a couple minutes.
                      >
                      >>> I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
                      >>> Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
                      >>> still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
                      >>> this point.
                      >
                      > I'm afraid that Shizuru actually goes poof in ep 23... :P

                      I don't think so, I think she survives 23, but she'll succeed in
                      driving Natsuki away. Unless, there's a plausible way for killing
                      Shizuru or Kiyohime without elminating Natsuki, I think she'll make it
                      to at least 25.

                      >
                      >>>> I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone
                      >>>> safe and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
                      >>>> returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster
                      >>>> than Yukino could imagine.
                      >>
                      >> Well said, Erica.
                      >>
                      >>> You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)
                      >>
                      >> Even better said, Serge. ;D
                      >
                      > Hahahaha... I suppose so. Yukino strikes me as very deferential and
                      > conservative. Hence, she wouldn't even dare consider the possibility
                      > of anything more than a platonic relationship. In a sense, she's the
                      > one who would do anything for her MIP, including adapting her own
                      > feelings and expectations to what Haruka wants (or what Yukino thinks
                      > Haruka wants).

                      I think Yukino does want more than a platonic relatioship, but she's in
                      denial, and she'll finally come face to face with it, in 23.

                      >
                      >> I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
                      >> it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have
                      >
                      > Ah, I thought that was an excellent rejoiner. In fact, I would be
                      > cheering Shizuru on like no tomorrow, if not for that one little
                      > behind-the-doors scene. Imagine how things would be if that sequence
                      > had not been there. Anyway, I think we the viewers are still getting
                      > manipulated like heck.

                      Yes, at this point, I don't think we know one way or another what
                      actually transpired yet. But, the point of the scene was to throw doubt
                      in the viewer's and Natsuki's mind. So, in sense, it doesn't really
                      matter at this point if it happened or not. Natsuki thinks that it did,
                      and will go forward from that.

                      >
                      >> Shizuru
                      >> and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
                      >> HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
                      >> know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
                      >> for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing
                      >
                      > Seconded. Something weird and illogical is going on. No reason to
                      > fight. Well, that's my take on it anyway. I hope stuff actually makes
                      > more sense in ep 23.
                      >
                      >> I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at
                      >
                      > Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Things have degenerated so far,
                      > and look to get far worse, that if you don't reset, it'd be a Real
                      > Sh!tty Ending, and if you reset, it'd be the Copout Ending from Hell.

                      It depends on how they do it. If the 6 year old girl and the 9 year old
                      boy write it, then we certainly are damned. ;)

                      > At this point, we would have to rely on fanfics and doujinshi :P

                      And we weren't before?

                      -==-
                      Serge
                      http://ximatl.blogspot.com
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