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Re: Mai HiME ep 23 (Freaking big spoilers, yo)

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  • ivevei
    ... without ... Choke... yeah, if only it looked like it was going to be that neat and happy in the end. SPOILERS! This was an extremely traumatic episode. A
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3 6:54 PM
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      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "andy0053190" <Andy00@a...> wrote:
      > >
      > > What I'm curious about....
      > >
      > > Spoilers
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      > > If Shizuru did take out all the HiMEs except Natsuki...er...then
      > > what? Does she think she (or they) can defeat the HiME star
      without
      > > fighting each other? (Or does she have some weird plan to have
      > > Natsuki defeat her without Natsuki being erased?)
      > >
      > >
      >
      > 1) Hold hands and watch the world end together
      >
      > 2) Mashiro's Alternative. Kick the crap out of the Obsidian Lord.
      >
      > 3) Convoluted Kannaduki no Miko method. Let's just say It involves
      > making Natsuki hate her.

      Choke... yeah, if only it looked like it was going to be that neat
      and happy in the end.

      SPOILERS!

      This was an extremely traumatic episode. A little too much happened
      everywhere so I will just focus on Shizuru x Natsuki.

      Things take a decide turn for the ugly. Natsuki is recovering at the
      lovesha^H^H^H^H^H house and it appears all is well in yuri-land with
      our favourite two. Natsuki confessed to Shizuru, "When I was captured,
      I called for Duran, many times, in my heart, but he never appeared."

      Perhaps Childs only exist if you have an important person... and since
      Natsuki's was her mother, that mean Duran was powerless once the
      betrayal was revealed.

      Anyway, Haruka and Yukino, on Reito's machinations, head over to the
      house to drag Shachou-san back to her duties. Just in time to see
      Shizuru steal a kiss from a sleeping Natsuki (this girl sleeps too
      well for her own good!!).

      Haruka and Yukino scream. Shizuru glances up. H&Y start spouting
      accusations. Shizuru tells them she'll take 'em on outside, where they
      start arguing. There's actually a ton of interesting human dynamic
      revealed here. Let's see if I can remember it all. Forgive any
      mistakes, it was kinda late.

      First, Shizuru tells them to beat it, basically. I think she tells
      Haruka she'll just give up her title to her. Yukino suddenly erupts in
      anger at the dismissal, saying that Haruka had always tried her best
      to catch up to Shizuru, and this off-hand treatment is all she gets?!
      "At least treat her as a rival!" Yukino reveals that she always did
      her best for Haruka, even though she knew she could never top Shizuru
      ("Katenai to shitteita").

      Natsuki wakes up around this point, having seen an unpleasant dream of
      Shizuru attempting to kiss her. "No, she'd never do something like
      that", Natsuki rationalizes, and heads off in the direction of voices
      engaged in a heated argument. (At this point, I was already screaming
      , "No, no, noo!" at the TV.)

      Arrives to see the above three standing in the courtyard. Natsuki
      hides behind a bush. Overhears the accusations by Yukino and Haruka
      that Shizuru is a total slimebag for harbouring those sorts of
      feelings and, furthermore, "How would Natsuki feel if she knew she had
      been betrayed by her only friend?!"

      Alone in the bushes, Natsuki reacts badly. Shock, betrayal, disgust,
      disbelief. There is one highly disturbing sequence (spoiler image!).

      http://blog.livedoor.jp/shiro466/

      I think this more of an "imagined" than real event. Only serves to
      slam home exactly how Natsuki feels to suddenly discover that your
      only friend is a lesbian who wants you and is sick enough to force
      herself on you when your defenses are down.

      During this time Shizuru reveals the extent of her
      single-mindedness... she really would destroy anything and everything
      for Natsuki. And that includes two brats standing in her courtyard...

      And that's about it. BTW, Yukino denies that what she feels for Haruka
      is the same as Shizuru's feelings. Actually, I can sort of understand
      that. Yukino cares deeply for Haruka, but I don't think she actually
      desires Haruka on a sexual level. Unlike our resident pervert of a
      shachou.

      My only suspicion, aside from the fact that the writers write it so
      the HiMEs would be as traumatized as possible, is, "Why the heck would
      Shizuru want to fight Yukino?" No argument over sexuality or invasion
      of privacy warrants hauling out your naginata and demon squid from
      hell!

      Personally this episode left me somewhat depressed as well. Perhaps
      Natsuki overreacted (duh, you'd think she'd have a clue). I admit
      Shizuru overstepped the bounds of decency by stealing that kiss. But
      what struck me was how Natsuki's reaction could be so typical, in fact
      it's more realistic. How would you feel if your best friend was
      revealed to want you? In the US, there's a good chance they pull out a
      gun and shoot!

      No, clearly Natsuki is not quite as forgiving as Himeko. And Shizuru
      doesn't feel as noble as Chikane :P
    • mellowrg
      ... Well, it was raining the other night. Natsuki might have had hypotermia. Shizuru probably striped naked to share body heat. A.k.a cliche #255 other notes:
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 3 9:00 PM
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        I few more notes:

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        Well, it was raining the other night. Natsuki might have had
        hypotermia. Shizuru probably striped naked to share body heat. A.k.a
        cliche #255

        other notes:

        Yukino was implying that she would blackmail Shizuru is she didn't
        return to the council.

        Shizuru implies that Yukino is a gay pervert for enjoying the scenery.
        XD. She's right. Yukikno couldn't deny it, but Haruka apparently
        disagreed.

        At the end, Shizuru implied to Yukino, that just like her, she'll do
        what it takes for the sake of her most beloved. And odd lesson in Karma?
      • ivevei
        ... Wait, so this actually happened?! Damn, I coulda sworn it was just Natsumi s imagination freaking out over what *might* have happened when she was
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3 9:16 PM
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          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
          >
          > I few more notes:
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          > Well, it was raining the other night. Natsuki might have had
          > hypotermia. Shizuru probably striped naked to share body heat. A.k.a
          > cliche #255

          Wait, so this actually happened?!
          Damn, I coulda sworn it was just Natsumi's imagination freaking out
          over what *might* have happened when she was unconscious...

          *sigh*

          > other notes:
          >
          > Yukino was implying that she would blackmail Shizuru is she didn't
          > return to the council.
          >
          > Shizuru implies that Yukino is a gay pervert for enjoying the scenery.
          > XD. She's right. Yukikno couldn't deny it, but Haruka apparently
          > disagreed.

          Okay.. Yes, and this was where the whole slap exchange happened.
          I was already into shock withdrawal :P

          > At the end, Shizuru implied to Yukino, that just like her, she'll do
          > what it takes for the sake of her most beloved. And odd lesson in Karma?

          Yes, even Midori says so, and she's the most level-headed of the lot.

          I wonder what message Mai-HiME is trying to send... Love and its
          dangers? I guess we have enough "Power of Love" anime.
        • mellowrg
          ... Well, I m not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn t deny it I d say it happened but not in the context that we expect. Natsuki s story seemed to be
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3 9:25 PM
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I few more notes:
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            > > Well, it was raining the other night. Natsuki might have had
            > > hypotermia. Shizuru probably striped naked to share body heat. A.k.a
            > > cliche #255
            >
            > Wait, so this actually happened?!
            > Damn, I coulda sworn it was just Natsumi's imagination freaking out
            > over what *might* have happened when she was unconscious...
            >


            Well, I'm not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn't deny it I'd
            say it happened but not in the context that we expect.

            Natsuki"s story seemed to be based on that. Did her mother really
            betray her? Or did she feel that her chances of survival with Searrs
            with be better (considering what a rotten egg the first district is)

            did Shizuru really molest her in her sleep?
          • dchan
            ... Well, I m not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn t deny it I d say it happened but not in the context that we expect. Natsuki s story seemed to be
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3 11:00 PM
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              mellowrg <mellowrg@...> wrote:

              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I few more notes:
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              Well, I'm not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn't deny it I'd
              say it happened but not in the context that we expect.

              Natsuki"s story seemed to be based on that. Did her mother really
              betray her? Or did she feel that her chances of survival with Searrs
              with be better (considering what a rotten egg the first district is)

              did Shizuru really molest her in her sleep?


              well i think Natsuki has been through a lot lately, and with all that and then Shizuru kissing her, she probably just can't handle so many shocks and these sudden realizations. it could be the reason why she reacted the way she did, i could be wrong. the word "trust" is probably lost from her mind.

              __________________________________________________
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            • ivevei
              ... Waits for the raw to dl... The preview seems to indicate Haruka buys the farm. No! The writers mislead us yet again! What happens is Yukino calls forth
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 4 3:13 AM
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                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, dchan <d_chan126@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > mellowrg <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
                > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I few more notes:
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                >
                > Well, I'm not that sure, but considering Shizuru didn't deny it I'd
                > say it happened but not in the context that we expect.
                >
                > Natsuki"s story seemed to be based on that. Did her mother really
                > betray her? Or did she feel that her chances of survival with Searrs
                > with be better (considering what a rotten egg the first district is)
                >
                > did Shizuru really molest her in her sleep?
                >

                Waits for the raw to dl...

                The preview seems to indicate Haruka buys the farm. No! The writers
                mislead us yet again!

                What happens is Yukino calls forth Diana. Shizuru cuts Diana up, but
                right before the killing blow, Natsuki - desperate to stop this
                madness - calls forth Duran to block... only to have Duran run through
                by Shizuru!

                Duran *_* kaboom
                Shizuru o_o starts turning into green sparklies...
                Natsuki o_O screams in shock
                Shizuru to Natsuki: "No, it had to be this way, I had to make you hate
                me so you would kill me. Now you'll be safe, forever..." *disappears*
                Natsuki: "SHIZURUUUUUUU!!!"

                Yeah, we wish :P
              • atheniag
                ... I agree - I got the distinct feeling that, based on Haruka s OTT accusations, Natsuki assumed that Shizuru stole alot more than a single kiss. ... Haruka
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 5 10:45 AM
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                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
                  >

                  > > > Spoilers
                  > > > .
                  > > > .
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                  >
                  > SPOILERS!
                  >
                  > This was an extremely traumatic episode. A little too much happened
                  > everywhere so I will just focus on Shizuru x Natsuki.

                  > Alone in the bushes, Natsuki reacts badly. Shock, betrayal, disgust,
                  > disbelief. There is one highly disturbing sequence (spoiler image!).
                  >
                  >
                  > I think this more of an "imagined" than real event. Only serves to
                  > slam home exactly how Natsuki feels to suddenly discover that your
                  > only friend is a lesbian who wants you and is sick enough to force
                  > herself on you when your defenses are down.

                  I agree - I got the distinct feeling that, based on Haruka's OTT
                  accusations, Natsuki assumed that Shizuru stole alot more than a
                  single kiss.

                  >

                  > And that's about it. BTW, Yukino denies that what she feels for
                  Haruka
                  > is the same as Shizuru's feelings. Actually, I can sort of
                  understand
                  > that. Yukino cares deeply for Haruka, but I don't think she actually
                  > desires Haruka on a sexual level. Unlike our resident pervert of a
                  > shachou.

                  I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone safe
                  and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
                  returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster than
                  Yukino could imagine.

                  >
                  > My only suspicion, aside from the fact that the writers write it so
                  > the HiMEs would be as traumatized as possible, is, "Why the heck
                  would
                  > Shizuru want to fight Yukino?" No argument over sexuality or
                  invasion
                  > of privacy warrants hauling out your naginata and demon squid from
                  > hell!

                  She's been putting up with Haruka's complaints for at least two years
                  now - I think she just got sick of it. It's one thing to have Haruka
                  rag on her endlessly at school, but this &^%$! just showed up at her
                  private refuge, interrupted her time with Natsuki, then started
                  screaming about how unnatural she was...nothing personal, but if i had
                  a magic naginata to pull out about then, I probably would. :-)

                  >
                  > Personally this episode left me somewhat depressed as well. Perhaps
                  > Natsuki overreacted (duh, you'd think she'd have a clue). I admit
                  > Shizuru overstepped the bounds of decency by stealing that kiss. But
                  > what struck me was how Natsuki's reaction could be so typical, in
                  fact
                  > it's more realistic. How would you feel if your best friend was
                  > revealed to want you? In the US, there's a good chance they pull out
                  a
                  > gun and shoot!

                  Not in any crowd I run with. lol I remember clearly a (straight, or so
                  she would like to believe) friend once asking me, a little
                  hysterically, what to say to a female co-worker who told her that she
                  had a nice ass. I looked at her ass, agreed that it was nice and told
                  her to say "Thank you."


                  > No, clearly Natsuki is not quite as forgiving as Himeko. And Shizuru
                  > doesn't feel as noble as Chikane :P

                  That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
                  has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)

                  My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers will
                  go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and the 9-year
                  old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then come back to
                  life and live happily ever after and get married and have babies"
                  fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....

                  Cheers,

                  Erica
                • Chalcahuite
                  ... Everything is now in place for each remaining HiME to have their own very special tragic ending, in the classical/Shakespearian sense. A heroic flaw that
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 5 10:04 PM
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                    On Mar 5, 2005, at 1:45 PM, atheniag wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "ivevei" <ivevei@y...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >
                    >>>> Spoilers
                    >>>> .
                    >>>> .
                    >>>> .
                    >>>> .
                    >>>> .
                    >>>> .
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                    >>>> .
                    >>>> REALLY
                    >>>> .
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                    >>>
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                    >
                    >>
                    >> SPOILERS!
                    >>
                    >> This was an extremely traumatic episode. A little too much happened
                    >> everywhere so I will just focus on Shizuru x Natsuki.

                    Everything is now in place for each remaining HiME to have their own
                    very special tragic ending, in the classical/Shakespearian sense. A
                    heroic flaw that brings our lovely ladies low. I like these characters
                    and as much as I want them all to have a happy ending, like the Black
                    Prince, I'm really enjoying watching them suffer.

                    >
                    >> Alone in the bushes, Natsuki reacts badly. Shock, betrayal, disgust,
                    >> disbelief. There is one highly disturbing sequence (spoiler image!).
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> I think this more of an "imagined" than real event. Only serves to
                    >> slam home exactly how Natsuki feels to suddenly discover that your
                    >> only friend is a lesbian who wants you and is sick enough to force
                    >> herself on you when your defenses are down.
                    >
                    > I agree - I got the distinct feeling that, based on Haruka's OTT
                    > accusations, Natsuki assumed that Shizuru stole alot more than a
                    > single kiss.

                    Remember what I said last time? "Natsuki has had her world shattered
                    this episode, and is the last of the main trio to do so, hers isn't as
                    devastating as Mai's or Mikoto's, because Shizuru is there. "
                    Obviously, I spoke too soon. Things don't look good at all for these
                    two. Shizuru, in a moment, of weakness, succumbs to temptation and
                    kisses a sleeping Natsuki (though it's a situation I totally
                    understand) and Natsuki, having lost the only thing she could trust in,
                    can't trust anyone now, and presumes the worst about the only person
                    she knows cares about her.
                    Natsuki has nothing at this point, no MIP, no Duran, and no purpose,
                    since they all hinged on the same thing, But, I'm not sure what she's
                    going to do at this point. Mai had Tate, and Mikoto had Ani-ue/Reito
                    left after their nadir, and I thought Shizuru would be that for
                    Natsuki. I still hope so, since anyone else at this point would feel
                    totally out of left field. (The only plausible alternative to Shizuru,
                    at this point, is to have her faith in her mother restored.) I still
                    don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from Shizuru,
                    even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's still
                    Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at this point.

                    >> And that's about it. BTW, Yukino denies that what she feels for
                    > Haruka
                    >> is the same as Shizuru's feelings. Actually, I can sort of
                    > understand
                    >> that. Yukino cares deeply for Haruka, but I don't think she actually
                    >> desires Haruka on a sexual level. Unlike our resident pervert of a
                    >> shachou.
                    >
                    > I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone safe
                    > and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
                    > returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster than
                    > Yukino could imagine.

                    You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)

                    >
                    >>
                    >> My only suspicion, aside from the fact that the writers write it so
                    >> the HiMEs would be as traumatized as possible, is, "Why the heck
                    > would
                    >> Shizuru want to fight Yukino?" No argument over sexuality or
                    > invasion
                    >> of privacy warrants hauling out your naginata and demon squid from
                    >> hell!
                    >
                    > She's been putting up with Haruka's complaints for at least two years
                    > now - I think she just got sick of it. It's one thing to have Haruka
                    > rag on her endlessly at school, but this &^%$! just showed up at her
                    > private refuge, interrupted her time with Natsuki, then started
                    > screaming about how unnatural she was...nothing personal, but if i had
                    > a magic naginata to pull out about then, I probably would. :-)

                    This might be my Shizuru bias speaking, but I thought she was handling
                    the situation reasonably well, all things considered. Haruka and Yukino
                    were mainly responsible for escalating things. And I don't think
                    Shizuru intends to fight Yukino unless she has to. I don't think we've
                    ever seen her attack first, she always reacts defensively, but with
                    overwhelming force. She never starts fights, but she sure as hell
                    finishes them.

                    >
                    >>
                    >> Personally this episode left me somewhat depressed as well. Perhaps
                    >> Natsuki overreacted (duh, you'd think she'd have a clue). I admit
                    >> Shizuru overstepped the bounds of decency by stealing that kiss. But
                    >> what struck me was how Natsuki's reaction could be so typical, in
                    > fact
                    >> it's more realistic. How would you feel if your best friend was
                    >> revealed to want you? In the US, there's a good chance they pull out
                    > a
                    >> gun and shoot!
                    >
                    > Not in any crowd I run with. lol I remember clearly a (straight, or so
                    > she would like to believe) friend once asking me, a little
                    > hysterically, what to say to a female co-worker who told her that she
                    > had a nice ass. I looked at her ass, agreed that it was nice and told
                    > her to say "Thank you."
                    >
                    >
                    >> No, clearly Natsuki is not quite as forgiving as Himeko. And Shizuru
                    >> doesn't feel as noble as Chikane :P

                    I'm going to have to disagree, Chikane was much more unstable than
                    Shizuru is proving to be.

                    > That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
                    > has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)

                    Though she's not really helping herself, when she says she'd do
                    ANYTHING for the sake of her MIP.

                    >
                    > My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers will
                    > go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and the 9-year
                    > old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then come back to
                    > life and live happily ever after and get married and have babies"
                    > fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....

                    With good cause. Though I'm hoping to be surprised in a good way.
                    We'll know more in 5 days.

                    Next episode, more despair, more suffering, more fights, and more
                    casualties. Yay!! LOL.

                    -==-
                    Serge
                    http://ximatl.blogspot.com
                  • Ka-chan
                    ... SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . SPOILERS ... There s been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki s conscience of late...which is why
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 6 2:23 AM
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                      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
                      SPOILERS
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                      SPOILERS

                      > Shizuru, in a moment, of weakness, succumbs to temptation and
                      > kisses a sleeping Natsuki (though it's a situation I totally
                      > understand) and Natsuki, having lost the only thing she could trust
                      > in, can't trust anyone now, and presumes the worst about the only
                      > person she knows cares about her.

                      There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
                      late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
                      people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
                      In sane mind.

                      > Natsuki has nothing at this point, no MIP, no Duran, and no purpose,
                      > since they all hinged on the same thing.

                      <snip>
                      And a shame indeed. She's lost will to fight...whether she realizes it
                      or not...and without that will Dhuran will never answer her summons. I
                      can only think confusedly on this developement. We have the 3
                      valkyries - one of which without a child, one with a child on a
                      raging, burning warpath of destruction, and one so completely lost in
                      herself that she can't even summon her child. Perhaps it's not so much
                      that they're meant to have a similar role (which we've sorta been
                      assuming, correct?), but that each has their *own* role to fullfill as
                      a valkyrie. Now what that might be...I've no clue. :|

                      > I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
                      > Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
                      > still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
                      > this point.

                      While that make make many a sense to Shizuru, I doubt it would so to
                      Natsuki. You'll be lucky if she has that line of logic right now, or
                      even if she does to truly care about it. I've little doubts (from the
                      preview of 23) that she's making well into the 'okay, I'm so lost that
                      wandering the streets will seem to make better sense to me than living
                      my life right now and hopefully a car will make me a pancake as I do
                      so' mentality.

                      >> I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone
                      >> safe and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
                      >> returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster
                      >> than Yukino could imagine.

                      Well said, Erica.

                      > You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)

                      Even better said, Serge. ;D

                      >> She's been putting up with Haruka's complaints for at least two
                      >> years now - I think she just got sick of it. It's one thing to have
                      >> Haruka rag on her endlessly at school, but this &^%$! just showed
                      >> up at her private refuge, interrupted her time with Natsuki, then
                      >> started screaming about how unnatural she was...nothing personal,
                      >> but if i had a magic naginata to pull out about then, I probably
                      >> would. :-)

                      Totally with you here. And let's face it...the japanese are even more
                      particular about 'privacy courtesy' when it comes to houses. And we
                      all can pretty well see Shizuru's a typically practical girl. ^^;

                      > This might be my Shizuru bias speaking, but I thought she was
                      > handling the situation reasonably well, all things considered.
                      > Haruka and Yukino were mainly responsible for escalating things.

                      I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
                      it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have
                      deserved it for so unreasonably attacking her). ;) I can understand
                      where Yukino's coming from, but she really acted overly rash here. And
                      Haruka even worse so. Which is making Shizuru trip out...and that's
                      gonna spell something nasty (and some respect lost in my book) for
                      Shizuru.

                      > And I don't think Shizuru intends to fight Yukino unless she has to.
                      > I don't think we've ever seen her attack first, she always reacts
                      > defensively, but with overwhelming force. She never starts fights,
                      > but she sure as hell finishes them.

                      Again, I dunno about that. ^^; Remember that she was the one who
                      attacked Nao full-out in 20? And Yukino and Haruka came to calling
                      *Natsuki* dirty. Which is why Haruka got slapped back. Haruka's pushed
                      a bit too far into Shizuru's threshold for insult...in that she can
                      take all the crap about herself...but *damned* if she's going to let
                      them drag Natsuki into it.

                      What *I'm* trying to figure out is if she's going to be directly
                      attacking Haruka for insulting Natsuki and Yukino attempts to deflect,
                      or whether it's something where even more heinous altercations are
                      sent out, and *that's* what makes the 2 of them snap to fight. Shizuru
                      and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
                      HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
                      know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
                      for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing
                      the trump card of her anonimity to the other HiME to the fullest so
                      far, so perhaps she doesn't plan on breaking the streak. And what
                      better way to do so than by taking out the HiME that sees that she is
                      one...

                      >> That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
                      >> has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)

                      > Though she's not really helping herself, when she says she'd do
                      > ANYTHING for the sake of her MIP.

                      Well yes, but do you think you'd really want to show your 'oni' face
                      to the person you love and are trying to protect on purpose? Keep in
                      mind, she doesn't know Natsuki's there...and would most likely act
                      differently if she did know she was. Or, if Natsuki did come out and
                      told her to stop, I'd like to think that she would, being drained of
                      her ability to keep up her oni-ness. But then...maybe madness comes
                      with the rage...it wouldn't be unthinkable.

                      >> My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers
                      >> will go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and
                      >> the 9-year old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then
                      >> come back to life and live happily ever after and get married and
                      >> have babies" fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....

                      > With good cause. Though I'm hoping to be surprised in a good way.
                      > We'll know more in 5 days.

                      I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at
                      least the next year of that from KnM. I'd rather have them all die
                      tragically and never ever be able to return. And perhaps that's what
                      Alyssa's song really means. Add more to the fire!! ^_~

                      > Next episode, more despair, more suffering, more fights, and more
                      > casualties. Yay!! LOL.

                      Hey, but we were at casualties 0 this episode. Unless you're wishing
                      to count Nao's and Shizuru's growing insanity...but I'm all for more
                      boobs. Yes, indeed. I think that's one thing we might all agree upon,
                      anyway.

                      ~Ka-chan~
                    • ivevei
                      Um, Spoilers again. ... I know we, and the rest of the Mai-HiME watching world, have been going back and forth on Shizuru s actions and their justifiability.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 6 3:50 AM
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                        Um, Spoilers again.

                        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Ka-chan" <firesenshimars@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
                        > SPOILERS
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                        > .

                        I know we, and the rest of the Mai-HiME watching world, have been
                        going back and forth on Shizuru's actions and their justifiability. At
                        this point, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

                        On the one hand, Shizuru has always been portrayed as calm and
                        collected. She took care of Yukarino in ep 12 (how, and to what end,
                        we do not know...). She is probably in contact with Mashiro is some
                        degree, as she appeared at the Rijichou mansion when Natsuki was
                        looking for Mashiro.

                        In ep 21, she's portrayed as the coolest thing since green tea
                        icecream, well, barring that eerie shot of her demon eyes.

                        So of course the whole world is cheering on Shachou... at which point
                        the Writers-from-Hell decide to cut her down in the most
                        stomach-turning manner possible.

                        And yet, her guilt is not certain. That scene behind the doors can be
                        construed either way - that it was what Yukino actually, or that it
                        was simply Natsuki's conjecture in a moment of shock. Yukino's
                        dialogue is rather ambiguous. "I saw, just like you kissed her just
                        now, what you did to Kuga-san who was asleep... How could you do that
                        to somebody who trusted you completely as a friend!"

                        Could it be that the writers are simply messing with us yet again?
                        They shown Shizuru in the worst light possible, adding Natsuki's
                        negative reaction into this mix. Then, spoilers that imply Diana's
                        demise. Oh dear... As we have seen from Mai-HiME's spoilers so far,
                        that usually means a curve ball.

                        Perhaps I'm grasping at straws. I like Shizuru far too much, and can
                        only pray that the writers too will treat her with more respect than
                        to banish her as a despicable lesbian-with-no-self-control. Even if
                        Natsuki doesn't feel the same, I hope that somehow Shizuru is
                        vindicated, proven to Natsuki that she in fact did not take more than
                        that one kiss from a sleeping Natsuki.

                        Okay, so she also ran her fingers through her hair. That's forgivable ^^;;

                        Some Japanese sites have speculated that Natsuki's mother will be
                        shown to be alive and working hard as a SEARSS researcher for
                        Natsuki's sake, and hence Duran shall arise once again, stronger than
                        ever. I hope so, because otherwise it only leaves Takeda-sempai *turns
                        around and heaves*

                        > There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
                        > late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
                        > people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
                        > In sane mind.

                        Admittedly, Natsuki is still in shock. Still, if she had any shred of
                        romantic feeling for Shizuru, I doubt she would have reacted in that
                        way. I don't know if she will hate Shizuru (we see her standing behind
                        Shizuru in the preview...?!), but I don't think there's much chance
                        that she does return Shizuru's feelings.

                        In a way, I have to respect the turn of events. How realistic is it to
                        assume that everything ends happily ever after, shoujo ai included?
                        The way the series was going, that may have been optimistic. It seems
                        that shoujo ai is a trend right now, and perhaps the writers simply
                        used it as a convenient plot device.

                        Ahem. Excuse me while I go and curse them for a couple minutes.

                        > > I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
                        > > Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
                        > > still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
                        > > this point.

                        I'm afraid that Shizuru actually goes poof in ep 23... :P

                        > >> I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone
                        > >> safe and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
                        > >> returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster
                        > >> than Yukino could imagine.
                        >
                        > Well said, Erica.
                        >
                        > > You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)
                        >
                        > Even better said, Serge. ;D

                        Hahahaha... I suppose so. Yukino strikes me as very deferential and
                        conservative. Hence, she wouldn't even dare consider the possibility
                        of anything more than a platonic relationship. In a sense, she's the
                        one who would do anything for her MIP, including adapting her own
                        feelings and expectations to what Haruka wants (or what Yukino thinks
                        Haruka wants).

                        > I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
                        > it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have

                        Ah, I thought that was an excellent rejoiner. In fact, I would be
                        cheering Shizuru on like no tomorrow, if not for that one little
                        behind-the-doors scene. Imagine how things would be if that sequence
                        had not been there. Anyway, I think we the viewers are still getting
                        manipulated like heck.

                        > Shizuru
                        > and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
                        > HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
                        > know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
                        > for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing

                        Seconded. Something weird and illogical is going on. No reason to
                        fight. Well, that's my take on it anyway. I hope stuff actually makes
                        more sense in ep 23.

                        > I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at

                        Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Things have degenerated so far,
                        and look to get far worse, that if you don't reset, it'd be a Real
                        Sh!tty Ending, and if you reset, it'd be the Copout Ending from Hell.

                        At this point, we would have to rely on fanfics and doujinshi :P
                      • Chalcahuite
                        ... Well, we still don t know too much of what she s thinking yet. That ll be episode 23 I gather. Though, if Natsuki were really disgusted about Shizuru s
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 6 9:14 PM
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                          On Mar 6, 2005, at 5:23 AM, Ka-chan wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
                          > SPOILERS
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                          > SPOILERS
                          >
                          >> Shizuru, in a moment, of weakness, succumbs to temptation and
                          >> kisses a sleeping Natsuki (though it's a situation I totally
                          >> understand) and Natsuki, having lost the only thing she could trust
                          >> in, can't trust anyone now, and presumes the worst about the only
                          >> person she knows cares about her.
                          >
                          > There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
                          > late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
                          > people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
                          > In sane mind.

                          Well, we still don't know too much of what she's thinking yet. That'll
                          be episode 23 I gather. Though, if Natsuki were really disgusted about
                          Shizuru's antics, I think she would have flat out rejected her in 19.
                          But, she didn't and I just don't see them throwing that away yet.

                          >
                          >> Natsuki has nothing at this point, no MIP, no Duran, and no purpose,
                          >> since they all hinged on the same thing.
                          >
                          > <snip>
                          > And a shame indeed. She's lost will to fight...whether she realizes it
                          > or not...and without that will Dhuran will never answer her summons.

                          It's because she's lost faith in her mother, who was, apparently, her
                          MIP. Without a MIP, a HiME can't summon their Child.

                          > I
                          > can only think confusedly on this developement. We have the 3
                          > valkyries - one of which without a child, one with a child on a
                          > raging, burning warpath of destruction, and one so completely lost in
                          > herself that she can't even summon her child. Perhaps it's not so much
                          > that they're meant to have a similar role (which we've sorta been
                          > assuming, correct?), but that each has their *own* role to fullfill as
                          > a valkyrie. Now what that might be...I've no clue. :|



                          >
                          >> I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
                          >> Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
                          >> still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
                          >> this point.
                          >
                          > While that make make many a sense to Shizuru, I doubt it would so to
                          > Natsuki. You'll be lucky if she has that line of logic right now, or
                          > even if she does to truly care about it. I've little doubts (from the
                          > preview of 23) that she's making well into the 'okay, I'm so lost that
                          > wandering the streets will seem to make better sense to me than living
                          > my life right now and hopefully a car will make me a pancake as I do
                          > so' mentality.

                          No, no, she'll do her best thinking wandering the streets in the rain,
                          and as soon as she has her near death experience, she'll have her
                          epiphany and right herself.

                          >> This might be my Shizuru bias speaking, but I thought she was
                          >> handling the situation reasonably well, all things considered.
                          >> Haruka and Yukino were mainly responsible for escalating things.
                          >
                          > I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
                          > it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have
                          > deserved it for so unreasonably attacking her). ;)

                          After being called "unnatural" I'd say it was tit for tat. But, we can
                          probably relate it back to her fighting style. Respond when provoked
                          with overwhelming force.

                          >> And I don't think Shizuru intends to fight Yukino unless she has to.
                          >> I don't think we've ever seen her attack first, she always reacts
                          >> defensively, but with overwhelming force. She never starts fights,
                          >> but she sure as hell finishes them.
                          >
                          > Again, I dunno about that. ^^; Remember that she was the one who
                          > attacked Nao full-out in 20?

                          In 21? She warned off Nao, Nao laughed and seized her naginata with her
                          webbing. So Shizuru brought out the big guns, and made sure Nao wasn't
                          a threat anymore. Sure, it's like swatting a fly with a 105 mm
                          Howitzer, but it gets the job done. ;)

                          > And Yukino and Haruka came to calling
                          > *Natsuki* dirty. Which is why Haruka got slapped back. Haruka's pushed
                          > a bit too far into Shizuru's threshold for insult...in that she can
                          > take all the crap about herself...but *damned* if she's going to let
                          > them drag Natsuki into it.
                          >
                          > What *I'm* trying to figure out is if she's going to be directly
                          > attacking Haruka for insulting Natsuki and Yukino attempts to deflect,
                          > or whether it's something where even more heinous altercations are
                          > sent out, and *that's* what makes the 2 of them snap to fight.

                          Next scene will be Yukino stepping in front of Shizuru and summoning
                          her element, and possibly Diana. More words will be exchanged, but
                          Yukino will make the first move (or possibly goaded into it) and
                          Shizuru will try to end the fight on her move. Which might lead to
                          Haruka's disappearance that they've been hinting at. That's when
                          Natsuki appears, says something harsh to Shizuru and goes running off.

                          > Shizuru
                          > and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
                          > HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
                          > know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
                          > for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing
                          > the trump card of her anonimity to the other HiME to the fullest so
                          > far, so perhaps she doesn't plan on breaking the streak. And what
                          > better way to do so than by taking out the HiME that sees that she is
                          > one...

                          See above.

                          >
                          >>> That's because she has the wrong idea about Shizuru...well, no, she
                          >>> has the right idea, but for the wrong reasons. :-)
                          >
                          >> Though she's not really helping herself, when she says she'd do
                          >> ANYTHING for the sake of her MIP.
                          >
                          > Well yes, but do you think you'd really want to show your 'oni' face
                          > to the person you love and are trying to protect on purpose? Keep in
                          > mind, she doesn't know Natsuki's there...and would most likely act
                          > differently if she did know she was. Or, if Natsuki did come out and
                          > told her to stop, I'd like to think that she would, being drained of
                          > her ability to keep up her oni-ness. But then...maybe madness comes
                          > with the rage...it wouldn't be unthinkable.

                          I don't think she'll realize Natsuki's there until after she's dealt
                          with Yukino and Haruka.

                          >
                          >>> My biggest concern is that, as they so frequently do, the writers
                          >>> will go away now and leave the ending to the 6-year old girl and
                          >>> the 9-year old boy writing team of "let's make them all die, then
                          >>> come back to life and live happily ever after and get married and
                          >>> have babies" fame. I fear for the Hime-tachi....
                          >
                          >> With good cause. Though I'm hoping to be surprised in a good way.
                          >> We'll know more in 5 days.
                          >
                          > I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at
                          > least the next year of that from KnM. I'd rather have them all die
                          > tragically and never ever be able to return. And perhaps that's what
                          > Alyssa's song really means. Add more to the fire!! ^_~

                          I wouldn't mind a true tragic ending either, but I'm pretty sure we're
                          getting a reset. You don't get the downer endings very often, anymore.
                          Though, I'm guessing it'll be a reset to back before the series
                          started, and all the girls get a do over, without the HiME part this
                          time.

                          >
                          >> Next episode, more despair, more suffering, more fights, and more
                          >> casualties. Yay!! LOL.
                          >
                          > Hey, but we were at casualties 0 this episode. Unless you're wishing
                          > to count Nao's and Shizuru's growing insanity...but I'm all for more
                          > boobs. Yes, indeed. I think that's one thing we might all agree upon,
                          > anyway.

                          I was speaking about the series in general. I'm guessing we're getting
                          two Child deaths and our first HiME death next episode. St. Vrus and
                          Diana and Midori will all buy the farm.

                          Oh, and yes, I agree, more boobies = teh win. It's a core philosophy
                          really. :-D

                          -==-
                          Serge
                          http://ximatl.blogspot.com
                        • mellowrg
                          We have 3 new girls Mikaze and the gang are gone.... for the first few minutes at least. ^_^;; They re back due to a mechanical and possibly political snafu
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 6 9:38 PM
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                            We have 3 new girls

                            Mikaze and the gang are gone.... for the first few minutes at least. ^_^;;

                            They're back due to a mechanical and possibly political snafu

                            Anyway, I'm just happy we're getting more Stratos4
                          • Chalcahuite
                            ... I find it interesting that Mai, as the title character, doesn t get talked about very much these days. Could also be the crowd I hang with, but I m pretty
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 6 9:52 PM
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                              On Mar 6, 2005, at 6:50 AM, ivevei wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Um, Spoilers again.
                              >
                              > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Ka-chan" <firesenshimars@y...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Chalcahuite <ximatl@i...> wrote:
                              >> SPOILERS
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
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                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >> .
                              >
                              > I know we, and the rest of the Mai-HiME watching world, have been
                              > going back and forth on Shizuru's actions and their justifiability. At
                              > this point, I'm not sure what to think anymore.

                              I find it interesting that Mai, as the title character, doesn't get
                              talked about very much these days. Could also be the crowd I hang
                              with, but I'm pretty sure, nobody's spending as much time speculating
                              on Mai and Tate.

                              > So of course the whole world is cheering on Shachou... at which point
                              > the Writers-from-Hell decide to cut her down in the most
                              > stomach-turning manner possible.

                              They probably don't, but I wonder if anybody at Sunrise is tracking the
                              fan reaction and relating it back to the writers.

                              > And yet, her guilt is not certain. That scene behind the doors can be
                              > construed either way - that it was what Yukino actually, or that it
                              > was simply Natsuki's conjecture in a moment of shock. Yukino's
                              > dialogue is rather ambiguous. "I saw, just like you kissed her just
                              > now, what you did to Kuga-san who was asleep... How could you do that
                              > to somebody who trusted you completely as a friend!"
                              >
                              > Could it be that the writers are simply messing with us yet again?

                              Yes.

                              > They shown Shizuru in the worst light possible, adding Natsuki's
                              > negative reaction into this mix. Then, spoilers that imply Diana's
                              > demise. Oh dear... As we have seen from Mai-HiME's spoilers so far,
                              > that usually means a curve ball.

                              The curve ball is that 23 is Midori's last episode. Though, it could
                              be something else, entirely.

                              > Perhaps I'm grasping at straws. I like Shizuru far too much, and can
                              > only pray that the writers too will treat her with more respect than
                              > to banish her as a despicable lesbian-with-no-self-control. Even if
                              > Natsuki doesn't feel the same, I hope that somehow Shizuru is
                              > vindicated, proven to Natsuki that she in fact did not take more than
                              > that one kiss from a sleeping Natsuki.
                              >
                              > Okay, so she also ran her fingers through her hair. That's forgivable
                              > ^^;;

                              Absolutely. I mean, who hasn't stolen a kiss from a sleeping girl. ;)

                              > Some Japanese sites have speculated that Natsuki's mother will be
                              > shown to be alive and working hard as a SEARSS researcher for
                              > Natsuki's sake, and hence Duran shall arise once again, stronger than
                              > ever. I hope so, because otherwise it only leaves Takeda-sempai *turns
                              > around and heaves*

                              The only other possibility that actually would be more credible would
                              be Afro-sensei. (I forget his name.) But, Natsuki's mother returning,
                              would be a bit out left field, but not unprecedented, seeing as Searrs
                              brought her back in the manga.

                              >
                              >> There's been some real detrimental blows to Natsuki's conscience of
                              >> late...which is why I'll not buy into the 'disgusted' part of so many
                              >> people's arguement of her reaction. Not until she's said so herself.
                              >> In sane mind.
                              >
                              > Admittedly, Natsuki is still in shock. Still, if she had any shred of
                              > romantic feeling for Shizuru, I doubt she would have reacted in that
                              > way. I don't know if she will hate Shizuru (we see her standing behind
                              > Shizuru in the preview...?!), but I don't think there's much chance
                              > that she does return Shizuru's feelings.

                              She may not have returned them yet, but she didn't reject them when
                              presented with them before. I'm pretty sure she understood Shizuru's
                              meaning, so she could have said flat out she couldn't like Shizuru in
                              that way, but she didn't. So, all hope is not lost yet, but may be in
                              23. ;)

                              > In a way, I have to respect the turn of events. How realistic is it to
                              > assume that everything ends happily ever after, shoujo ai included?
                              > The way the series was going, that may have been optimistic. It seems
                              > that shoujo ai is a trend right now, and perhaps the writers simply
                              > used it as a convenient plot device.

                              Well, if they were to go for a dark, tragic ending then, yes, all the
                              elements are in place for it, and I'd might actually like this
                              direction. Though I prefer a yuri happy ending, I don't mind the dark
                              ending if it's done right. But, it's very rarely done right, so it's
                              always a concern.

                              > Ahem. Excuse me while I go and curse them for a couple minutes.
                              >
                              >>> I still don't think it makes much sense for Natsuki to be apart from
                              >>> Shizuru, even if Natsuki doesn't return any of her feelings, she's
                              >>> still Shizuru's MIP and therefore at risk. But, I got nothing at
                              >>> this point.
                              >
                              > I'm afraid that Shizuru actually goes poof in ep 23... :P

                              I don't think so, I think she survives 23, but she'll succeed in
                              driving Natsuki away. Unless, there's a plausible way for killing
                              Shizuru or Kiyohime without elminating Natsuki, I think she'll make it
                              to at least 25.

                              >
                              >>>> I think *she* thinks so, but that's because she's picked someone
                              >>>> safe and unattainable to love. If Haruka actually turned around and
                              >>>> returned the feeling, I bet it would progress to perverted faster
                              >>>> than Yukino could imagine.
                              >>
                              >> Well said, Erica.
                              >>
                              >>> You say perverted, I say healthy. ;)
                              >>
                              >> Even better said, Serge. ;D
                              >
                              > Hahahaha... I suppose so. Yukino strikes me as very deferential and
                              > conservative. Hence, she wouldn't even dare consider the possibility
                              > of anything more than a platonic relationship. In a sense, she's the
                              > one who would do anything for her MIP, including adapting her own
                              > feelings and expectations to what Haruka wants (or what Yukino thinks
                              > Haruka wants).

                              I think Yukino does want more than a platonic relatioship, but she's in
                              denial, and she'll finally come face to face with it, in 23.

                              >
                              >> I dunno about that...calling Yukino a peeping tom (and that she enjoys
                              >> it) pretty much says a low blow to me (however much she may have
                              >
                              > Ah, I thought that was an excellent rejoiner. In fact, I would be
                              > cheering Shizuru on like no tomorrow, if not for that one little
                              > behind-the-doors scene. Imagine how things would be if that sequence
                              > had not been there. Anyway, I think we the viewers are still getting
                              > manipulated like heck.

                              Yes, at this point, I don't think we know one way or another what
                              actually transpired yet. But, the point of the scene was to throw doubt
                              in the viewer's and Natsuki's mind. So, in sense, it doesn't really
                              matter at this point if it happened or not. Natsuki thinks that it did,
                              and will go forward from that.

                              >
                              >> Shizuru
                              >> and Yukino have, so far, been argueably the 2 most level-headed of the
                              >> HiME - with the exception of possibly Midori. It's tense...but I don't
                              >> know that I want to believe that Shizuru would attack either of them
                              >> for merely what has already been said. But then, she's been playing
                              >
                              > Seconded. Something weird and illogical is going on. No reason to
                              > fight. Well, that's my take on it anyway. I hope stuff actually makes
                              > more sense in ep 23.
                              >
                              >> I just don't want another 'system reset'...I've had my fill for at
                              >
                              > Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Things have degenerated so far,
                              > and look to get far worse, that if you don't reset, it'd be a Real
                              > Sh!tty Ending, and if you reset, it'd be the Copout Ending from Hell.

                              It depends on how they do it. If the 6 year old girl and the 9 year old
                              boy write it, then we certainly are damned. ;)

                              > At this point, we would have to rely on fanfics and doujinshi :P

                              And we weren't before?

                              -==-
                              Serge
                              http://ximatl.blogspot.com
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