Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

Expand Messages
  • Niki
    ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
      > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
      >
      > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
      > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
      > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
      >
      > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
      > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
      > serves) right before New Years.
      >
      > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
      > eye for the uke guy".
      >
      > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
      >
      > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
      > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

      I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
      Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
      the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
      manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
      circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
      definitely what he's into.
      I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
      female/male "mistresses," though.

      -Elae
    • Erica Friedman
      ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
        >From: Resop <resop2@...>
        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

        >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
        >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
        >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

        The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
        all the other men in the family.

        >
        >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
        >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
        >serves) right before New Years.

        I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
        liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
        Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
        frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
        parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


        >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
        >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

        You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
        guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
        at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
        belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
        given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

        Cheers,

        Erica
      • atheniag
        ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
          wrote:
          > what is a dooky wrote:
          >
          > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
          > >are actually Catholic.
          > >
          > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
          other
          > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
          > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

          She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
          Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
          Anglican. :-)

          It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
          wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
          haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
          either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
          "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
          we saw in Shiori.

          (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
          novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
          details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
          was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
          tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
          Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
          school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
          up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
          difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
          years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
          was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
          (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
          wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
          that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
          tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
          God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
          her life to God, she could redeem it.

          Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
          possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
          every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
          with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
          it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
          Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
          You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
          could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
          Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
          she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


          Also, her connection with Buddhism
          > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
          > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
          of
          > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
          Shimako
          > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

          My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
          childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
          The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

          I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
          cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

          I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
          a secret increases the longer you hide it.


          > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
          statue,
          > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
          respects.

          Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
          'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
          your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
          that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
          clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


          > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
          in
          > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
          way
          > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

          Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
          and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
          that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

          Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
          well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
          here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


          > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
          not
          > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
          > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

          I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
          duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
          What are her options?

          They can
          > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
          > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
          > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

          I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

          Sachiko may end up just not having any
          > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

          Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
          personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
          romance.

          I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
          her, really. lol

          Hopefully she'll
          > still have Yumi, though...

          That's certainly one type of romance.

          It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
          she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
          of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
          wanting to marry for love.

          If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
          probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
          married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

          If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
          Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
          as an ornament.

          There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
          freeing herself from family obligations.


          > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
          validity
          > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
          > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
          > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
          > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

          "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
          coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
          age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
          time.

          What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
          page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
          itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
          real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
          that story is "literature." :-)

          Cheers,

          Erica
        • Resop
          ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
            --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

            > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
            > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
            > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
            >
            > You mean Yumi and Touko?

            I stand corrected.

            > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
            > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
            > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
            > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
            > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

            Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
            share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
            that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

            Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
            self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
            yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
            the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
            out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
            would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
            Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
            Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
            takes the Judo girl.

            Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
            Touko would be sure to consider.

            Craig
          • Erica Friedman
            ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
              >From: Resop <resop2@...>
              >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

              >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
              >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
              >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
              >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
              >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
              >Yoshino
              >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
              >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
              >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
              >takes the Judo girl.
              >
              >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
              >Touko would be sure to consider.

              It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
              anything like a possible storyline:

              It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
              help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
              realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
              remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
              shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
              on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

              And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
              even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
              for her soeur.

              I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
              Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
              her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
              the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
              the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
              makes no sense.

              Cheers,

              Erica
            • runaway_donkey
              ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                wrote:
                > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                was gay or
                > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                was
                > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                understand
                > what was going on with her.

                alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                >
                > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                >
                > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                woman" as do
                > all the other men in the family.
                >

                i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                > To me it seems that
                > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                relationship
                > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                like a clown
                > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                years side story.

                > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                all. My
                > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                the novels
                > at all - an entirely new character.

                i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                turn out.

                -alf
              • Erica Friedman
                ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 4, 2005
                  >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                  >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                  on with her.
                  >
                  >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                  >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                  >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                  While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                  :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                  I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                  knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                  for lesban cues. LOL

                  she generally puts
                  >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                  >other immensely).

                  I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                  it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                  In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                  warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                  types and Sei knows it.

                  and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                  >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                  >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                  I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                  Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                  >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                  >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                  >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                  >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                  Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                  to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                  really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                  take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                  from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                  to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                  her.

                  Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                  same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                  that make alot more sense.



                  >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                  >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                  >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                  >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                  >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                  >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                  >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                  >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                  >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                  >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                  >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                  >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                  >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                  >turn out.

                  Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                  Cheers,

                  Erica

                  Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                  http://www.yuricon.org


                  "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                  The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                  Because fanfic does not have to suck
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.