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Re: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

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  • Resop
    ... I don t think Yuuki will have a problem. My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for female mistress and male mistress? After all,
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
      --- what is a dooky <spookydooky@...> wrote:

      > But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
      > that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
      > in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
      > heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
      > hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
      > inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
      > structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
      > Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
      > fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
      > on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
      > on everything ^_^)
      >
      > What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
      > Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
      > Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
      > idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
      > such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
      > of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
      > Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

      I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.

      My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
      female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
      "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

      That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
      school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
      serves) right before New Years.

      I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
      eye for the uke guy".

      For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.

      On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
      Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

      Craig
    • Niki
      ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
        > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
        >
        > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
        > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
        > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
        >
        > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
        > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
        > serves) right before New Years.
        >
        > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
        > eye for the uke guy".
        >
        > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
        >
        > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
        > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

        I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
        Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
        the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
        manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
        circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
        definitely what he's into.
        I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
        female/male "mistresses," though.

        -Elae
      • Erica Friedman
        ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
          >From: Resop <resop2@...>
          >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

          >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
          >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
          >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

          The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
          all the other men in the family.

          >
          >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
          >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
          >serves) right before New Years.

          I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
          liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
          Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
          frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
          parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


          >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
          >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

          You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
          guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
          at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
          belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
          given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

          Cheers,

          Erica
        • atheniag
          ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
            wrote:
            > what is a dooky wrote:
            >
            > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
            > >are actually Catholic.
            > >
            > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
            other
            > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
            > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

            She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
            Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
            Anglican. :-)

            It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
            wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
            haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
            either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
            "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
            we saw in Shiori.

            (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
            novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
            details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
            was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
            tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
            Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
            school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
            up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
            difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
            years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
            was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
            (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
            wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
            that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
            tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
            God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
            her life to God, she could redeem it.

            Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
            possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
            every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
            with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
            it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
            Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
            You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
            could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
            Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
            she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


            Also, her connection with Buddhism
            > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
            > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
            of
            > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
            Shimako
            > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

            My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
            childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
            The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

            I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
            cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

            I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
            a secret increases the longer you hide it.


            > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
            statue,
            > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
            respects.

            Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
            'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
            your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
            that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
            clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


            > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
            in
            > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
            way
            > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

            Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
            and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
            that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

            Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
            well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
            here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


            > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
            not
            > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
            > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

            I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
            duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
            What are her options?

            They can
            > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
            > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
            > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

            I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

            Sachiko may end up just not having any
            > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

            Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
            personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
            romance.

            I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
            her, really. lol

            Hopefully she'll
            > still have Yumi, though...

            That's certainly one type of romance.

            It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
            she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
            of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
            wanting to marry for love.

            If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
            probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
            married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

            If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
            Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
            as an ornament.

            There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
            freeing herself from family obligations.


            > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
            validity
            > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
            > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
            > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
            > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

            "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
            coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
            age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
            time.

            What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
            page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
            itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
            real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
            that story is "literature." :-)

            Cheers,

            Erica
          • Resop
            ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
              --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

              > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
              > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
              > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
              >
              > You mean Yumi and Touko?

              I stand corrected.

              > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
              > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
              > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
              > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
              > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

              Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
              share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
              that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

              Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
              self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
              yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
              the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
              out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
              would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
              Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
              Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
              takes the Judo girl.

              Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
              Touko would be sure to consider.

              Craig
            • Erica Friedman
              ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
                >Yoshino
                >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                >takes the Judo girl.
                >
                >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                >Touko would be sure to consider.

                It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
                anything like a possible storyline:

                It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
                help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
                realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
                remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
                shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
                on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

                And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
                even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
                for her soeur.

                I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
                Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
                her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
                the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
                the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
                makes no sense.

                Cheers,

                Erica
              • runaway_donkey
                ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                  wrote:
                  > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                  was gay or
                  > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                  was
                  > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                  understand
                  > what was going on with her.

                  alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                  believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                  acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                  herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                  other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                  men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                  attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                  >
                  > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                  > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                  > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                  >
                  > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                  woman" as do
                  > all the other men in the family.
                  >

                  i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                  sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                  sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                  (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                  using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                  particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                  that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                  something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                  only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                  > To me it seems that
                  > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                  relationship
                  > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                  like a clown
                  > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                  i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                  parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                  years side story.

                  > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                  all. My
                  > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                  the novels
                  > at all - an entirely new character.

                  i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                  souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                  are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                  far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                  that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                  way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                  after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                  soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                  and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                  girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                  shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                  shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                  shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                  turn out.

                  -alf
                • Erica Friedman
                  ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 4, 2005
                    >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                    >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    on with her.
                    >
                    >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                    >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                    >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                    While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                    :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                    I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                    knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                    for lesban cues. LOL

                    she generally puts
                    >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                    >other immensely).

                    I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                    it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                    In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                    warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                    types and Sei knows it.

                    and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                    >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                    >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                    I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                    Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                    >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                    >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                    >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                    >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                    Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                    to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                    really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                    take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                    from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                    to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                    her.

                    Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                    same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                    that make alot more sense.



                    >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                    >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                    >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                    >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                    >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                    >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                    >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                    >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                    >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                    >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                    >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                    >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                    >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                    >turn out.

                    Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                    Cheers,

                    Erica

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