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Re: [Yuricon] Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

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  • Johann Chua
    On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, Erica Friedman ... My sisters school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary Rosebud Ong, former NBI undercover agent.
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 3 7:01 AM
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      On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, "Erica Friedman"
      <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

      > Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has
      > a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the
      > students attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for
      > years - one all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without
      > fail, juvenile deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the
      > surface, with deep underlying anger and hatred of the authority they
      > would become and abuse. )

      My sisters' school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary "Rosebud"
      Ong, former NBI undercover agent.

      Clinton Planca had a few thinly-veiled remarks about his miserable
      life in a Catholic school for Chinese boys--which I'm pretty sure is
      mine, so I can relate--in his essay book THE MAD TEA PARTY.

      (Over here Catholic schools are a dime a dozen; it's the Chinese
      schools that have a rep for being good. Not sure how well deserved that
      is.)
    • Resop
      ... I don t think Yuuki will have a problem. My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for female mistress and male mistress? After all,
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 3 9:31 AM
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        --- what is a dooky <spookydooky@...> wrote:

        > But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
        > that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
        > in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
        > heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
        > hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
        > inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
        > structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
        > Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
        > fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
        > on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
        > on everything ^_^)
        >
        > What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
        > Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
        > Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
        > idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
        > such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
        > of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
        > Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

        I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.

        My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
        female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
        "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

        That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
        school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
        serves) right before New Years.

        I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
        eye for the uke guy".

        For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.

        On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
        Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

        Craig
      • Niki
        ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3 9:40 AM
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          > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
          >
          > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
          > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
          > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
          >
          > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
          > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
          > serves) right before New Years.
          >
          > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
          > eye for the uke guy".
          >
          > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
          >
          > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
          > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

          I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
          Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
          the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
          manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
          circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
          definitely what he's into.
          I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
          female/male "mistresses," though.

          -Elae
        • Erica Friedman
          ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 3 10:01 AM
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            >From: Resop <resop2@...>
            >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

            >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
            >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
            >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

            The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
            all the other men in the family.

            >
            >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
            >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
            >serves) right before New Years.

            I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
            liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
            Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
            frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
            parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


            >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
            >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

            You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
            guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
            at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
            belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
            given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

            Cheers,

            Erica
          • atheniag
            ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3 10:53 AM
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
              wrote:
              > what is a dooky wrote:
              >
              > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
              > >are actually Catholic.
              > >
              > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
              other
              > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
              > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

              She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
              Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
              Anglican. :-)

              It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
              wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
              haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
              either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
              "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
              we saw in Shiori.

              (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
              novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
              details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
              was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
              tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
              Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
              school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
              up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
              difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
              years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
              was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
              (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
              wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
              that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
              tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
              God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
              her life to God, she could redeem it.

              Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
              possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
              every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
              with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
              it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
              Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
              You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
              could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
              Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
              she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


              Also, her connection with Buddhism
              > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
              > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
              of
              > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
              Shimako
              > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

              My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
              childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
              The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

              I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
              cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

              I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
              a secret increases the longer you hide it.


              > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
              statue,
              > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
              respects.

              Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
              'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
              your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
              that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
              clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


              > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
              in
              > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
              way
              > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

              Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
              and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
              that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

              Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
              well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
              here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


              > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
              not
              > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
              > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

              I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
              duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
              What are her options?

              They can
              > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
              > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
              > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

              I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

              Sachiko may end up just not having any
              > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

              Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
              personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
              romance.

              I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
              her, really. lol

              Hopefully she'll
              > still have Yumi, though...

              That's certainly one type of romance.

              It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
              she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
              of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
              wanting to marry for love.

              If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
              probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
              married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

              If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
              Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
              as an ornament.

              There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
              freeing herself from family obligations.


              > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
              validity
              > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
              > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
              > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
              > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

              "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
              coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
              age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
              time.

              What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
              page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
              itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
              real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
              that story is "literature." :-)

              Cheers,

              Erica
            • Resop
              ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3 11:21 AM
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                --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
                >
                > You mean Yumi and Touko?

                I stand corrected.

                > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
                share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
                that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

                Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
                would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                takes the Judo girl.

                Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                Touko would be sure to consider.

                Craig
              • Erica Friedman
                ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3 1:24 PM
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                  >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                  >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                  >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                  >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                  >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                  >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                  >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
                  >Yoshino
                  >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                  >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                  >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                  >takes the Judo girl.
                  >
                  >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                  >Touko would be sure to consider.

                  It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
                  anything like a possible storyline:

                  It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
                  help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
                  realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
                  remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
                  shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
                  on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

                  And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
                  even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
                  for her soeur.

                  I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
                  Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
                  her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
                  the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
                  the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
                  makes no sense.

                  Cheers,

                  Erica
                • runaway_donkey
                  ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 3 1:58 PM
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                    --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                    wrote:
                    > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                    was gay or
                    > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                    was
                    > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                    understand
                    > what was going on with her.

                    alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                    believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                    acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                    herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                    other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                    men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                    attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                    >
                    > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                    > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                    > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                    >
                    > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                    woman" as do
                    > all the other men in the family.
                    >

                    i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                    sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                    sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                    (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                    using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                    particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                    that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                    something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                    only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                    > To me it seems that
                    > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                    relationship
                    > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                    like a clown
                    > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                    i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                    parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                    years side story.

                    > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                    all. My
                    > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                    the novels
                    > at all - an entirely new character.

                    i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                    souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                    are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                    far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                    that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                    way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                    after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                    soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                    and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                    girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                    shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                    shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                    shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                    turn out.

                    -alf
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 4 7:42 AM
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                      >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      on with her.
                      >
                      >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                      >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                      >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                      While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                      :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                      I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                      knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                      for lesban cues. LOL

                      she generally puts
                      >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                      >other immensely).

                      I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                      it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                      In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                      warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                      types and Sei knows it.

                      and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                      >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                      >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                      I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                      Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                      >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                      >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                      >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                      >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                      Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                      to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                      really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                      take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                      from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                      to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                      her.

                      Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                      same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                      that make alot more sense.



                      >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                      >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                      >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                      >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                      >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                      >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                      >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                      >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                      >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                      >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                      >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                      >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                      >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                      >turn out.

                      Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                      Cheers,

                      Erica

                      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                      http://www.yuricon.org


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