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Re: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

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  • Erin Subramanian
    ... What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she s Catholic (or some other kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a family that
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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      what is a dooky wrote:

      >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
      >are actually Catholic.
      >
      What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some other
      kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
      family that runs a Buddhist temple. Also, her connection with Buddhism
      is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
      Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation of
      the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless Shimako
      and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?
      Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria statue,
      although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other respects.
      In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief in
      Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the way
      Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic. My basis for
      saying this is these lines from Chapter 20 of the manga:
      "I'm not afraid of being cursed.
      Jesus of Nazareth and his mother, Mary, both passed away long ago.
      After almost 2000 years, even a ghost would get tired.
      And if Mary is close to God, she should save a bad little lamb like me.
      ----Now! Come down here and save my lost soul, quickly!
      Amen!!
      And if you can't save me, then don't touch me.
      Just forget about me."
      So either she has some sort of (skeptical) belief in Mary, or her
      sarcasm here went over my head. lol.

      >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
      >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
      >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
      >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
      >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
      >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
      >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
      >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
      >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
      >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
      >on everything ^_^)
      >
      >
      I think in this case it has to do with running the family business, not
      just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
      somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru. They can
      each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
      comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
      exactly that in a fanfic... lol). Sachiko may end up just not having any
      real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :( Hopefully she'll
      still have Yumi, though...

      >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
      >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
      >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
      >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
      >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
      >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
      >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^
      >
      >
      Yes, it's too bad that Sachiko's illusions were shattered already,
      although they certainly wouldn't have survived the wedding (and wedding
      night) intact anyway, unless Suguru had made a deliberate effort to
      preserve them.
      Poor Yuuki... lol. But hey, if he ends up being happy with Suguru, I
      won't complain. ;)

      >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
      >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
      >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
      >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
      >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
      >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
      >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
      >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
      >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
      >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
      >on it...
      >
      >
      Let's not forget bisexuality either. It's entirely possible that one or
      more of the girls are bisexual as well, and hopefully not just BUG (Bi
      Until Graduation). I'm really not sure what I think about Sachiko's
      sexuality; I don't think we've really seen any evidence to point in any
      direction. I think her feelings for Suguru were more of a girlhood crush
      than a desire for a real relationship with him, and we haven't seen her
      checking out any girls, either. lol.
      I'm not really sure whether or not Sachiko would act on her feelings if
      she fell in love with a woman. I feel like I don't know her character
      well enough to predict either way. I'd root for them getting together,
      of course, but I have no idea how plausible it would be.

      >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
      >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
      >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
      >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
      >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
      >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.
      >
      >
      Do you think the novels are going to go that far? I kind of assumed they
      would just cover Yumi's time at Lillian. Would Sachiko be married right
      after she graduated, or would she get to go to college and whatnot first?

      Erin
    • Erica Friedman
      ... Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students attending
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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        >From: "what is a dooky" <spookydooky@...>
        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

        >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
        >are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
        >as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
        >a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
        >Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
        >prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
        >tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
        >(although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
        >the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
        >like my old school, then ^_~

        Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a
        elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students
        attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for years - one
        all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without fail, juvenile
        deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the surface, with deep
        underlying anger and hatred of the authority they would become and abuse. )

        In the course of nearly 20 years of living near and working with students
        from these schools, I met exactly one girl who had genuine faith.


        >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
        >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
        >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
        >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
        >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
        >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
        >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
        >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
        >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
        >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
        >on everything ^_^)

        Scary thought, because neityher anime nor my posts are authoritative! :-)

        From what I can see, there is enormous pressure in Japan to be married. To
        the point where it is simply easier to marry and be miserable than to buck
        the tide. In Sachiko's existence, she and her husband, whoever he ends up
        being, will likely hardly ever interact anyway - her family clearly ruinson
        that mens' world/womens' world that the rest of the world does, (with the
        exception of our freaky society that believes that men and women ought to,
        despite all evidence to the contrary, actually like to be with one
        another...!)

        Whoever Sachiko ends up marrying, she'll be spending more time with the
        women in her life than her husband, anyway.


        >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
        >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
        >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
        >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
        >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
        >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
        >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

        Yup and yup. :-)

        >
        >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
        >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
        >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
        >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
        >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
        >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
        >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
        >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
        >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
        >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
        >on it...

        I don't agree with Yumi, myself. Rei and Yoshino, definitely. In fact, them
        more than Sei. I can see Sei falling in love with whoever catcher her heart
        at that moment, while Yoshino and ei are so entirely focused on one anther
        it's actually a tad creepy.

        Sachiko has to be straight - only straight girls hate men that much. :-) And
        we already know that Kashiwagi was her first love. Not that she couldn't
        potentially fall in love with another woman...I just don't see it. In fact,
        in the end, Sachiko will probably be gald to marry Kashiwagi in the end - he
        won't demand constant sex and she can continue to dislike him cordially for
        their entire life. :-)


        >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
        >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
        >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
        >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
        >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
        >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

        Sachiko meets a rock star on tour and runs off with him to London? ;-)


        >Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
        >writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
        >at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
        >Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
        >be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
        >deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
        >better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
        >happen ^_~)


        I agree that she's a good writer...but it's not just writing "downright
        miserable". I think she manages to really portray the complex emotional
        states of 15-17 year olds in a way that darn few adults can.

        I was walking through a book store, looking at all the titles for school
        reading, remembering how many of them sucked so utterly - and how very few
        of them reflected anything at all like what me or my friends felt or talked
        about...in fact, the closest thing I found to capturing anything like being
        in high school was "Romeo and Juliet".

        OTOH, the Marimite novels, despite (because of?) their utter goofiness and
        Yumi's brain meltdowns, pretty much closely captures alot of my experiences
        in school. This and Utena - for the personailty types - are so far the
        closest I've found. A far cry from Rumble Fish" and the other dreck they
        made me read. lol


        Cheers,

        Erica

        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
        http://www.yuricon.org


        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

        Because fanfic does not have to suck
      • Johann Chua
        On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, Erica Friedman ... My sisters school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary Rosebud Ong, former NBI undercover agent.
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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          On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, "Erica Friedman"
          <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

          > Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has
          > a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the
          > students attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for
          > years - one all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without
          > fail, juvenile deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the
          > surface, with deep underlying anger and hatred of the authority they
          > would become and abuse. )

          My sisters' school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary "Rosebud"
          Ong, former NBI undercover agent.

          Clinton Planca had a few thinly-veiled remarks about his miserable
          life in a Catholic school for Chinese boys--which I'm pretty sure is
          mine, so I can relate--in his essay book THE MAD TEA PARTY.

          (Over here Catholic schools are a dime a dozen; it's the Chinese
          schools that have a rep for being good. Not sure how well deserved that
          is.)
        • Resop
          ... I don t think Yuuki will have a problem. My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for female mistress and male mistress? After all,
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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            --- what is a dooky <spookydooky@...> wrote:

            > But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
            > that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
            > in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
            > heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
            > hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
            > inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
            > structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
            > Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
            > fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
            > on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
            > on everything ^_^)
            >
            > What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
            > Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
            > Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
            > idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
            > such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
            > of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
            > Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

            I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.

            My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
            female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
            "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

            That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
            school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
            serves) right before New Years.

            I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
            eye for the uke guy".

            For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.

            On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
            Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

            Craig
          • Niki
            ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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              > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
              >
              > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
              > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
              > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
              >
              > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
              > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
              > serves) right before New Years.
              >
              > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
              > eye for the uke guy".
              >
              > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
              >
              > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
              > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

              I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
              Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
              the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
              manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
              circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
              definitely what he's into.
              I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
              female/male "mistresses," though.

              -Elae
            • Erica Friedman
              ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
                all the other men in the family.

                >
                >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                >serves) right before New Years.

                I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
                liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
                Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
                frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
                parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


                >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                Cheers,

                Erica
              • atheniag
                ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > what is a dooky wrote:
                  >
                  > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                  > >are actually Catholic.
                  > >
                  > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
                  other
                  > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
                  > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

                  She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
                  Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
                  Anglican. :-)

                  It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
                  wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
                  haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
                  either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
                  "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
                  we saw in Shiori.

                  (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
                  novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
                  details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
                  was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
                  tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
                  Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
                  school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
                  up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
                  difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
                  years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
                  was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
                  (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
                  wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
                  that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
                  tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
                  God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
                  her life to God, she could redeem it.

                  Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
                  possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
                  every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
                  with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
                  it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
                  Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
                  You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
                  could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
                  Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
                  she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


                  Also, her connection with Buddhism
                  > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
                  > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
                  of
                  > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
                  Shimako
                  > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

                  My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
                  childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
                  The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

                  I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
                  cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

                  I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
                  a secret increases the longer you hide it.


                  > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
                  statue,
                  > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
                  respects.

                  Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
                  'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
                  your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
                  that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
                  clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


                  > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
                  in
                  > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
                  way
                  > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

                  Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
                  and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
                  that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

                  Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
                  well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
                  here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


                  > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
                  not
                  > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
                  > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

                  I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
                  duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
                  What are her options?

                  They can
                  > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
                  > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
                  > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

                  I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

                  Sachiko may end up just not having any
                  > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

                  Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
                  personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
                  romance.

                  I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
                  her, really. lol

                  Hopefully she'll
                  > still have Yumi, though...

                  That's certainly one type of romance.

                  It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
                  she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
                  of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
                  wanting to marry for love.

                  If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
                  probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
                  married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

                  If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
                  Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
                  as an ornament.

                  There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
                  freeing herself from family obligations.


                  > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
                  validity
                  > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                  > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                  > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                  > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

                  "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
                  coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
                  age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
                  time.

                  What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
                  page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
                  itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
                  real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
                  that story is "literature." :-)

                  Cheers,

                  Erica
                • Resop
                  ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                    --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                    > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                    > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                    > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
                    >
                    > You mean Yumi and Touko?

                    I stand corrected.

                    > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                    > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                    > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                    > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                    > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                    Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
                    share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
                    that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

                    Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                    self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                    yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                    the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                    out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
                    would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                    Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                    Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                    takes the Judo girl.

                    Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                    Touko would be sure to consider.

                    Craig
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                      >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                      >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                      >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                      >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                      >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                      >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
                      >Yoshino
                      >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                      >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                      >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                      >takes the Judo girl.
                      >
                      >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                      >Touko would be sure to consider.

                      It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
                      anything like a possible storyline:

                      It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
                      help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
                      realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
                      remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
                      shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
                      on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

                      And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
                      even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
                      for her soeur.

                      I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
                      Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
                      her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
                      the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
                      the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
                      makes no sense.

                      Cheers,

                      Erica
                    • runaway_donkey
                      ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                        wrote:
                        > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                        was gay or
                        > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                        was
                        > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                        understand
                        > what was going on with her.

                        alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                        believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                        acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                        herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                        other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                        men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                        attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                        >
                        > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                        > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                        > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                        >
                        > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                        woman" as do
                        > all the other men in the family.
                        >

                        i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                        sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                        sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                        (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                        using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                        particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                        that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                        something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                        only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                        > To me it seems that
                        > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                        relationship
                        > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                        like a clown
                        > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                        i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                        parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                        years side story.

                        > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                        all. My
                        > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                        the novels
                        > at all - an entirely new character.

                        i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                        souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                        are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                        far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                        that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                        way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                        after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                        soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                        and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                        girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                        shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                        shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                        shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                        turn out.

                        -alf
                      • Erica Friedman
                        ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 4, 2005
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                          >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                          >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                          on with her.
                          >
                          >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                          >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                          >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                          While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                          :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                          I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                          knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                          for lesban cues. LOL

                          she generally puts
                          >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                          >other immensely).

                          I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                          it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                          In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                          warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                          types and Sei knows it.

                          and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                          >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                          >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                          I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                          Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                          >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                          >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                          >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                          >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                          Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                          to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                          really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                          take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                          from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                          to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                          her.

                          Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                          same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                          that make alot more sense.



                          >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                          >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                          >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                          >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                          >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                          >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                          >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                          >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                          >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                          >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                          >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                          >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                          >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                          >turn out.

                          Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                          Cheers,

                          Erica

                          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                          http://www.yuricon.org


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