Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

Expand Messages
  • runaway_donkey
    ... ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand that shiori s
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Yes, exactly. I really liked the specifics of Maria-sama being a stone
      > statue of a 2000 year old ghost, and there's Sei, a 16-year old girl,
      > shaking with need and having her heart broken.
      >
      > It's not fair to blame Shiori, I think, though. From her perspective,
      > Sei has destroyed her whole world - cast into doubt everything she
      > believed in, everything she thought she wanted...everything she
      > suffered through was made meaningless by the look in Sei's eyes.
      >
      > It would make a cool fanfic, wouldn't it, to have the whole of Shiroki
      > Hanabira from Shiori's perspective. :-)
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      >
      > Erica

      ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
      details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
      that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
      sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
      because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
      the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
      gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
      all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
      character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
      shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
      incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
      category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
      nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that the
      likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
      predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

      i know, i know.

      sachiko: i'll leave our relationship up to your imagination.

      not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
      i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
      something like that.

      -alf
    • what is a dooky
      ... with ... wasn t ... of ... marimite ... probably ... the ... Well, there s no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori) are actually Catholic.
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
        > ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
        > details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
        > that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be
        with
        > sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
        > because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that
        wasn't
        > the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant
        of
        > gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in
        marimite
        > all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
        > character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is
        probably
        > shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
        > incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
        > category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
        > nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that
        the
        > likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
        > predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

        Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
        are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
        as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
        a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
        Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
        prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
        tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
        (although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
        the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
        like my old school, then ^_~

        But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
        that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
        in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
        heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
        hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
        inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
        structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
        Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
        fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
        on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
        on everything ^_^)

        What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
        Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
        Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
        idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
        such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
        of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
        Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

        As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
        of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
        straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
        into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
        everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
        frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
        how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
        (behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
        (although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
        her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
        on it...

        I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
        issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
        uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
        so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
        does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
        she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

        Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
        writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
        at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
        Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
        be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
        deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
        better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
        happen ^_~)

        dooky
      • Erin Subramanian
        ... What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she s Catholic (or some other kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a family that
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
          what is a dooky wrote:

          >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
          >are actually Catholic.
          >
          What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some other
          kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
          family that runs a Buddhist temple. Also, her connection with Buddhism
          is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
          Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation of
          the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless Shimako
          and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?
          Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria statue,
          although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other respects.
          In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief in
          Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the way
          Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic. My basis for
          saying this is these lines from Chapter 20 of the manga:
          "I'm not afraid of being cursed.
          Jesus of Nazareth and his mother, Mary, both passed away long ago.
          After almost 2000 years, even a ghost would get tired.
          And if Mary is close to God, she should save a bad little lamb like me.
          ----Now! Come down here and save my lost soul, quickly!
          Amen!!
          And if you can't save me, then don't touch me.
          Just forget about me."
          So either she has some sort of (skeptical) belief in Mary, or her
          sarcasm here went over my head. lol.

          >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
          >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
          >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
          >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
          >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
          >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
          >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
          >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
          >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
          >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
          >on everything ^_^)
          >
          >
          I think in this case it has to do with running the family business, not
          just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
          somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru. They can
          each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
          comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
          exactly that in a fanfic... lol). Sachiko may end up just not having any
          real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :( Hopefully she'll
          still have Yumi, though...

          >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
          >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
          >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
          >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
          >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
          >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
          >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^
          >
          >
          Yes, it's too bad that Sachiko's illusions were shattered already,
          although they certainly wouldn't have survived the wedding (and wedding
          night) intact anyway, unless Suguru had made a deliberate effort to
          preserve them.
          Poor Yuuki... lol. But hey, if he ends up being happy with Suguru, I
          won't complain. ;)

          >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
          >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
          >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
          >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
          >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
          >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
          >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
          >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
          >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
          >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
          >on it...
          >
          >
          Let's not forget bisexuality either. It's entirely possible that one or
          more of the girls are bisexual as well, and hopefully not just BUG (Bi
          Until Graduation). I'm really not sure what I think about Sachiko's
          sexuality; I don't think we've really seen any evidence to point in any
          direction. I think her feelings for Suguru were more of a girlhood crush
          than a desire for a real relationship with him, and we haven't seen her
          checking out any girls, either. lol.
          I'm not really sure whether or not Sachiko would act on her feelings if
          she fell in love with a woman. I feel like I don't know her character
          well enough to predict either way. I'd root for them getting together,
          of course, but I have no idea how plausible it would be.

          >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
          >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
          >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
          >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
          >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
          >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.
          >
          >
          Do you think the novels are going to go that far? I kind of assumed they
          would just cover Yumi's time at Lillian. Would Sachiko be married right
          after she graduated, or would she get to go to college and whatnot first?

          Erin
        • Erica Friedman
          ... Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven t read far enough along to
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
            >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
            >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2
            >Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:26:05 -0000
            >
            >
            >ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
            >details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
            >that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
            >sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
            >because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
            >the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
            >gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
            >all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism?


            Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly
            religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven't read far enough along
            to say whenther Shimako is or not...but frankly, I don't see it.)

            Neither are any of the girls gay, from what I can see. They have naturally
            formed close emotional ties with deeply beloved onee-sama, but that's not
            the same as physically desiring another women. (Or, I should say, it is not
            considered to be the same in this context.)


            sure, the only
            >character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
            >shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
            >incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
            >category is sei. sei's pretty much out.

            In the third novel, Sei does try and figure out what she is feeling - but
            when she looks at stories of homosexual love, she isn't seeing anything that
            reflects her feelings... the byline used on the manga is something like
            "This is more than homosexuality, but can it be called "true love"?"

            Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she was gay or
            not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it was
            possible that the next year was when she might really start to understand
            what was going on with her.

            shiori, despite becoming a
            >nun, will probably still be a gay nun.

            For Shiori...well, if she was that religious, and I think she genuinely was,
            falling in love with Sei was the worst possible thing that could ever happen
            to her. And since - as Sei tells us - they really had no possibility of a
            happy future together, yes, she sacrifices her love for her faith. (I am
            also of the opinion that her faith too will falter over time, and she'll end
            up another lesbian ex-nun, but I digress...lol)



            but are we to assume that the
            >likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
            >predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?


            For the other girls, I don't think there's a question at all - they will
            end up marrying a man at some point, some for love, some for convenience, or
            money, or security...much like most women in this world do, even now.


            >not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
            >i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
            >something like that.

            I'm betting she ends up marrying Kashiwagi anyway. She might dissolve their
            pre-arrnaged marriage arrangement, but unless she can find an equally
            powerful guy to marry - one that would be just as or more beneficial for her
            family's company - methinks poor Sachiko is S.O.L.

            Cheers,

            Erica
          • Erica Friedman
            ... Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students attending
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
              >From: "what is a dooky" <spookydooky@...>
              >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

              >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
              >are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
              >as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
              >a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
              >Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
              >prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
              >tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
              >(although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
              >the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
              >like my old school, then ^_~

              Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a
              elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students
              attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for years - one
              all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without fail, juvenile
              deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the surface, with deep
              underlying anger and hatred of the authority they would become and abuse. )

              In the course of nearly 20 years of living near and working with students
              from these schools, I met exactly one girl who had genuine faith.


              >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
              >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
              >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
              >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
              >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
              >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
              >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
              >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
              >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
              >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
              >on everything ^_^)

              Scary thought, because neityher anime nor my posts are authoritative! :-)

              From what I can see, there is enormous pressure in Japan to be married. To
              the point where it is simply easier to marry and be miserable than to buck
              the tide. In Sachiko's existence, she and her husband, whoever he ends up
              being, will likely hardly ever interact anyway - her family clearly ruinson
              that mens' world/womens' world that the rest of the world does, (with the
              exception of our freaky society that believes that men and women ought to,
              despite all evidence to the contrary, actually like to be with one
              another...!)

              Whoever Sachiko ends up marrying, she'll be spending more time with the
              women in her life than her husband, anyway.


              >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
              >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
              >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
              >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
              >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
              >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
              >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

              Yup and yup. :-)

              >
              >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
              >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
              >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
              >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
              >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
              >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
              >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
              >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
              >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
              >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
              >on it...

              I don't agree with Yumi, myself. Rei and Yoshino, definitely. In fact, them
              more than Sei. I can see Sei falling in love with whoever catcher her heart
              at that moment, while Yoshino and ei are so entirely focused on one anther
              it's actually a tad creepy.

              Sachiko has to be straight - only straight girls hate men that much. :-) And
              we already know that Kashiwagi was her first love. Not that she couldn't
              potentially fall in love with another woman...I just don't see it. In fact,
              in the end, Sachiko will probably be gald to marry Kashiwagi in the end - he
              won't demand constant sex and she can continue to dislike him cordially for
              their entire life. :-)


              >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
              >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
              >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
              >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
              >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
              >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

              Sachiko meets a rock star on tour and runs off with him to London? ;-)


              >Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
              >writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
              >at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
              >Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
              >be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
              >deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
              >better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
              >happen ^_~)


              I agree that she's a good writer...but it's not just writing "downright
              miserable". I think she manages to really portray the complex emotional
              states of 15-17 year olds in a way that darn few adults can.

              I was walking through a book store, looking at all the titles for school
              reading, remembering how many of them sucked so utterly - and how very few
              of them reflected anything at all like what me or my friends felt or talked
              about...in fact, the closest thing I found to capturing anything like being
              in high school was "Romeo and Juliet".

              OTOH, the Marimite novels, despite (because of?) their utter goofiness and
              Yumi's brain meltdowns, pretty much closely captures alot of my experiences
              in school. This and Utena - for the personailty types - are so far the
              closest I've found. A far cry from Rumble Fish" and the other dreck they
              made me read. lol


              Cheers,

              Erica

              Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
              http://www.yuricon.org


              "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
              The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

              Because fanfic does not have to suck
            • Johann Chua
              On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, Erica Friedman ... My sisters school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary Rosebud Ong, former NBI undercover agent.
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, "Erica Friedman"
                <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                > Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has
                > a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the
                > students attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for
                > years - one all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without
                > fail, juvenile deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the
                > surface, with deep underlying anger and hatred of the authority they
                > would become and abuse. )

                My sisters' school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary "Rosebud"
                Ong, former NBI undercover agent.

                Clinton Planca had a few thinly-veiled remarks about his miserable
                life in a Catholic school for Chinese boys--which I'm pretty sure is
                mine, so I can relate--in his essay book THE MAD TEA PARTY.

                (Over here Catholic schools are a dime a dozen; it's the Chinese
                schools that have a rep for being good. Not sure how well deserved that
                is.)
              • Resop
                ... I don t think Yuuki will have a problem. My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for female mistress and male mistress? After all,
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                  --- what is a dooky <spookydooky@...> wrote:

                  > But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                  > that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                  > in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                  > heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                  > hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                  > inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                  > structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                  > Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                  > fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                  > on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                  > on everything ^_^)
                  >
                  > What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                  > Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                  > Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                  > idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                  > such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                  > of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                  > Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                  I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.

                  My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                  female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                  "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                  That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                  school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                  serves) right before New Years.

                  I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                  eye for the uke guy".

                  For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.

                  On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                  Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                  Craig
                • Niki
                  ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                    > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
                    >
                    > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                    > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                    > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                    >
                    > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                    > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                    > serves) right before New Years.
                    >
                    > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                    > eye for the uke guy".
                    >
                    > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
                    >
                    > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                    > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                    I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
                    Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
                    the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
                    manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
                    circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
                    definitely what he's into.
                    I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
                    female/male "mistresses," though.

                    -Elae
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                      >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                      >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                      >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                      >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                      The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
                      all the other men in the family.

                      >
                      >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                      >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                      >serves) right before New Years.

                      I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
                      liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
                      Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
                      frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
                      parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


                      >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                      >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                      You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                      guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                      at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                      belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                      given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                      Cheers,

                      Erica
                    • atheniag
                      ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
                        wrote:
                        > what is a dooky wrote:
                        >
                        > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                        > >are actually Catholic.
                        > >
                        > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
                        other
                        > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
                        > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

                        She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
                        Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
                        Anglican. :-)

                        It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
                        wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
                        haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
                        either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
                        "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
                        we saw in Shiori.

                        (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
                        novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
                        details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
                        was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
                        tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
                        Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
                        school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
                        up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
                        difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
                        years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
                        was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
                        (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
                        wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
                        that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
                        tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
                        God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
                        her life to God, she could redeem it.

                        Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
                        possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
                        every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
                        with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
                        it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
                        Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
                        You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
                        could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
                        Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
                        she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


                        Also, her connection with Buddhism
                        > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
                        > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
                        of
                        > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
                        Shimako
                        > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

                        My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
                        childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
                        The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

                        I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
                        cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

                        I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
                        a secret increases the longer you hide it.


                        > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
                        statue,
                        > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
                        respects.

                        Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
                        'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
                        your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
                        that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
                        clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


                        > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
                        in
                        > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
                        way
                        > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

                        Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
                        and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
                        that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

                        Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
                        well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
                        here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


                        > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
                        not
                        > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
                        > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

                        I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
                        duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
                        What are her options?

                        They can
                        > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
                        > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
                        > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

                        I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

                        Sachiko may end up just not having any
                        > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

                        Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
                        personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
                        romance.

                        I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
                        her, really. lol

                        Hopefully she'll
                        > still have Yumi, though...

                        That's certainly one type of romance.

                        It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
                        she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
                        of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
                        wanting to marry for love.

                        If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
                        probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
                        married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

                        If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
                        Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
                        as an ornament.

                        There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
                        freeing herself from family obligations.


                        > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
                        validity
                        > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                        > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                        > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                        > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

                        "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
                        coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
                        age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
                        time.

                        What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
                        page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
                        itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
                        real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
                        that story is "literature." :-)

                        Cheers,

                        Erica
                      • Resop
                        ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                          --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                          > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                          > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                          > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                          > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
                          >
                          > You mean Yumi and Touko?

                          I stand corrected.

                          > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                          > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                          > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                          > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                          > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                          Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
                          share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
                          that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

                          Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                          self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                          yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                          the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                          out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
                          would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                          Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                          Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                          takes the Judo girl.

                          Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                          Touko would be sure to consider.

                          Craig
                        • Erica Friedman
                          ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                            >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                            >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                            >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                            >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                            >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                            >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                            >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
                            >Yoshino
                            >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                            >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                            >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                            >takes the Judo girl.
                            >
                            >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                            >Touko would be sure to consider.

                            It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
                            anything like a possible storyline:

                            It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
                            help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
                            realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
                            remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
                            shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
                            on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

                            And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
                            even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
                            for her soeur.

                            I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
                            Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
                            her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
                            the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
                            the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
                            makes no sense.

                            Cheers,

                            Erica
                          • runaway_donkey
                            ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                              wrote:
                              > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                              was gay or
                              > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                              was
                              > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                              understand
                              > what was going on with her.

                              alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                              believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                              acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                              herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                              other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                              men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                              attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                              >
                              > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                              > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                              > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                              >
                              > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                              woman" as do
                              > all the other men in the family.
                              >

                              i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                              sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                              sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                              (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                              using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                              particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                              that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                              something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                              only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                              > To me it seems that
                              > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                              relationship
                              > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                              like a clown
                              > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                              i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                              parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                              years side story.

                              > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                              all. My
                              > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                              the novels
                              > at all - an entirely new character.

                              i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                              souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                              are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                              far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                              that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                              way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                              after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                              soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                              and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                              girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                              shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                              shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                              shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                              turn out.

                              -alf
                            • Erica Friedman
                              ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 4, 2005
                                >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                on with her.
                                >
                                >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                                >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                                >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                                While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                                :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                                I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                                knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                                for lesban cues. LOL

                                she generally puts
                                >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                                >other immensely).

                                I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                                it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                                In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                                warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                                types and Sei knows it.

                                and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                                >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                                >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                                I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                                Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                                >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                                >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                                >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                                >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                                Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                                to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                                really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                                take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                                from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                                to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                                her.

                                Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                                same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                                that make alot more sense.



                                >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                                >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                                >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                                >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                                >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                                >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                                >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                                >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                                >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                                >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                                >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                                >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                                >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                                >turn out.

                                Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                                Cheers,

                                Erica

                                Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                                http://www.yuricon.org


                                "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                                The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                                Because fanfic does not have to suck
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.