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Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

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  • atheniag
    ... I m about 1/4 through Rosa Canina right now - I just wish i could read these faster! ... Quite right. :-) I ll fix it for Okazu. ... not ... was ...
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
      wrote:
      > Thanks for sharing all these notes, it was great to read them. :)
      > Reading them makes me want to read the novel myself, maybe I'll get
      > around to it someday. ^^

      I'm about 1/4 through "Rosa Canina" right now - I just wish i could
      read these faster!

      >
      > A couple things:
      >
      > atheniag wrote:
      >
      > >Shiroi Hanabira
      > >
      > >
      > This should be "Shiroki Hanabira," I think.

      Quite right. :-) I'll fix it for Okazu.

      >
      > >5) When Shiori rejects Sei's kiss in the church, her reasoning is
      > >that "Maria-sama is watching." Sei goes cold and walks away, but
      not
      > >before thinking that she had lost to a 2000 year old ghost. This
      was
      > >in the anime and manga...but the next line, that Maria-sama was
      > >nothing more than a stone statue, while she herself was living
      flesh,
      > >wasn't. I thought that line was pretty great.
      > >
      > >
      > There actually is a line like that in the manga: "I, a living being,
      > lost to a statue, an artificial _thing_."

      Yes, exactly. I really liked the specifics of Maria-sama being a stone
      statue of a 2000 year old ghost, and there's Sei, a 16-year old girl,
      shaking with need and having her heart broken.

      It's not fair to blame Shiori, I think, though. From her perspective,
      Sei has destroyed her whole world - cast into doubt everything she
      believed in, everything she thought she wanted...everything she
      suffered through was made meaningless by the look in Sei's eyes.

      It would make a cool fanfic, wouldn't it, to have the whole of Shiroki
      Hanabira from Shiori's perspective. :-)

      Cheers,


      Erica
    • runaway_donkey
      ... ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand that shiori s
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Yes, exactly. I really liked the specifics of Maria-sama being a stone
        > statue of a 2000 year old ghost, and there's Sei, a 16-year old girl,
        > shaking with need and having her heart broken.
        >
        > It's not fair to blame Shiori, I think, though. From her perspective,
        > Sei has destroyed her whole world - cast into doubt everything she
        > believed in, everything she thought she wanted...everything she
        > suffered through was made meaningless by the look in Sei's eyes.
        >
        > It would make a cool fanfic, wouldn't it, to have the whole of Shiroki
        > Hanabira from Shiori's perspective. :-)
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        >
        > Erica

        ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
        details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
        that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
        sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
        because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
        the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
        gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
        all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
        character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
        shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
        incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
        category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
        nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that the
        likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
        predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

        i know, i know.

        sachiko: i'll leave our relationship up to your imagination.

        not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
        i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
        something like that.

        -alf
      • what is a dooky
        ... with ... wasn t ... of ... marimite ... probably ... the ... Well, there s no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori) are actually Catholic.
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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          > ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
          > details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
          > that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be
          with
          > sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
          > because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that
          wasn't
          > the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant
          of
          > gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in
          marimite
          > all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
          > character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is
          probably
          > shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
          > incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
          > category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
          > nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that
          the
          > likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
          > predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

          Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
          are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
          as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
          a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
          Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
          prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
          tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
          (although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
          the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
          like my old school, then ^_~

          But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
          that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
          in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
          heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
          hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
          inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
          structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
          Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
          fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
          on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
          on everything ^_^)

          What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
          Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
          Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
          idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
          such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
          of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
          Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

          As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
          of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
          straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
          into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
          everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
          frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
          how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
          (behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
          (although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
          her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
          on it...

          I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
          issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
          uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
          so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
          does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
          she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

          Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
          writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
          at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
          Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
          be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
          deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
          better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
          happen ^_~)

          dooky
        • Erin Subramanian
          ... What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she s Catholic (or some other kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a family that
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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            what is a dooky wrote:

            >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
            >are actually Catholic.
            >
            What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some other
            kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
            family that runs a Buddhist temple. Also, her connection with Buddhism
            is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
            Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation of
            the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless Shimako
            and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?
            Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria statue,
            although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other respects.
            In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief in
            Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the way
            Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic. My basis for
            saying this is these lines from Chapter 20 of the manga:
            "I'm not afraid of being cursed.
            Jesus of Nazareth and his mother, Mary, both passed away long ago.
            After almost 2000 years, even a ghost would get tired.
            And if Mary is close to God, she should save a bad little lamb like me.
            ----Now! Come down here and save my lost soul, quickly!
            Amen!!
            And if you can't save me, then don't touch me.
            Just forget about me."
            So either she has some sort of (skeptical) belief in Mary, or her
            sarcasm here went over my head. lol.

            >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
            >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
            >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
            >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
            >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
            >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
            >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
            >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
            >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
            >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
            >on everything ^_^)
            >
            >
            I think in this case it has to do with running the family business, not
            just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
            somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru. They can
            each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
            comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
            exactly that in a fanfic... lol). Sachiko may end up just not having any
            real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :( Hopefully she'll
            still have Yumi, though...

            >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
            >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
            >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
            >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
            >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
            >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
            >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^
            >
            >
            Yes, it's too bad that Sachiko's illusions were shattered already,
            although they certainly wouldn't have survived the wedding (and wedding
            night) intact anyway, unless Suguru had made a deliberate effort to
            preserve them.
            Poor Yuuki... lol. But hey, if he ends up being happy with Suguru, I
            won't complain. ;)

            >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
            >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
            >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
            >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
            >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
            >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
            >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
            >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
            >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
            >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
            >on it...
            >
            >
            Let's not forget bisexuality either. It's entirely possible that one or
            more of the girls are bisexual as well, and hopefully not just BUG (Bi
            Until Graduation). I'm really not sure what I think about Sachiko's
            sexuality; I don't think we've really seen any evidence to point in any
            direction. I think her feelings for Suguru were more of a girlhood crush
            than a desire for a real relationship with him, and we haven't seen her
            checking out any girls, either. lol.
            I'm not really sure whether or not Sachiko would act on her feelings if
            she fell in love with a woman. I feel like I don't know her character
            well enough to predict either way. I'd root for them getting together,
            of course, but I have no idea how plausible it would be.

            >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
            >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
            >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
            >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
            >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
            >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.
            >
            >
            Do you think the novels are going to go that far? I kind of assumed they
            would just cover Yumi's time at Lillian. Would Sachiko be married right
            after she graduated, or would she get to go to college and whatnot first?

            Erin
          • Erica Friedman
            ... Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven t read far enough along to
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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              >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
              >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2
              >Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:26:05 -0000
              >
              >
              >ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
              >details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
              >that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
              >sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
              >because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
              >the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
              >gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
              >all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism?


              Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly
              religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven't read far enough along
              to say whenther Shimako is or not...but frankly, I don't see it.)

              Neither are any of the girls gay, from what I can see. They have naturally
              formed close emotional ties with deeply beloved onee-sama, but that's not
              the same as physically desiring another women. (Or, I should say, it is not
              considered to be the same in this context.)


              sure, the only
              >character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
              >shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
              >incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
              >category is sei. sei's pretty much out.

              In the third novel, Sei does try and figure out what she is feeling - but
              when she looks at stories of homosexual love, she isn't seeing anything that
              reflects her feelings... the byline used on the manga is something like
              "This is more than homosexuality, but can it be called "true love"?"

              Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she was gay or
              not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it was
              possible that the next year was when she might really start to understand
              what was going on with her.

              shiori, despite becoming a
              >nun, will probably still be a gay nun.

              For Shiori...well, if she was that religious, and I think she genuinely was,
              falling in love with Sei was the worst possible thing that could ever happen
              to her. And since - as Sei tells us - they really had no possibility of a
              happy future together, yes, she sacrifices her love for her faith. (I am
              also of the opinion that her faith too will falter over time, and she'll end
              up another lesbian ex-nun, but I digress...lol)



              but are we to assume that the
              >likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
              >predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?


              For the other girls, I don't think there's a question at all - they will
              end up marrying a man at some point, some for love, some for convenience, or
              money, or security...much like most women in this world do, even now.


              >not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
              >i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
              >something like that.

              I'm betting she ends up marrying Kashiwagi anyway. She might dissolve their
              pre-arrnaged marriage arrangement, but unless she can find an equally
              powerful guy to marry - one that would be just as or more beneficial for her
              family's company - methinks poor Sachiko is S.O.L.

              Cheers,

              Erica
            • Erica Friedman
              ... Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students attending
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                >From: "what is a dooky" <spookydooky@...>
                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

                >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                >are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
                >as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
                >a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
                >Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
                >prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
                >tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
                >(although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
                >the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
                >like my old school, then ^_~

                Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a
                elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students
                attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for years - one
                all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without fail, juvenile
                deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the surface, with deep
                underlying anger and hatred of the authority they would become and abuse. )

                In the course of nearly 20 years of living near and working with students
                from these schools, I met exactly one girl who had genuine faith.


                >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                >on everything ^_^)

                Scary thought, because neityher anime nor my posts are authoritative! :-)

                From what I can see, there is enormous pressure in Japan to be married. To
                the point where it is simply easier to marry and be miserable than to buck
                the tide. In Sachiko's existence, she and her husband, whoever he ends up
                being, will likely hardly ever interact anyway - her family clearly ruinson
                that mens' world/womens' world that the rest of the world does, (with the
                exception of our freaky society that believes that men and women ought to,
                despite all evidence to the contrary, actually like to be with one
                another...!)

                Whoever Sachiko ends up marrying, she'll be spending more time with the
                women in her life than her husband, anyway.


                >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                Yup and yup. :-)

                >
                >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
                >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
                >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
                >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
                >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
                >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
                >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
                >on it...

                I don't agree with Yumi, myself. Rei and Yoshino, definitely. In fact, them
                more than Sei. I can see Sei falling in love with whoever catcher her heart
                at that moment, while Yoshino and ei are so entirely focused on one anther
                it's actually a tad creepy.

                Sachiko has to be straight - only straight girls hate men that much. :-) And
                we already know that Kashiwagi was her first love. Not that she couldn't
                potentially fall in love with another woman...I just don't see it. In fact,
                in the end, Sachiko will probably be gald to marry Kashiwagi in the end - he
                won't demand constant sex and she can continue to dislike him cordially for
                their entire life. :-)


                >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
                >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
                >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
                >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
                >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
                >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

                Sachiko meets a rock star on tour and runs off with him to London? ;-)


                >Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
                >writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
                >at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
                >Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
                >be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
                >deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
                >better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
                >happen ^_~)


                I agree that she's a good writer...but it's not just writing "downright
                miserable". I think she manages to really portray the complex emotional
                states of 15-17 year olds in a way that darn few adults can.

                I was walking through a book store, looking at all the titles for school
                reading, remembering how many of them sucked so utterly - and how very few
                of them reflected anything at all like what me or my friends felt or talked
                about...in fact, the closest thing I found to capturing anything like being
                in high school was "Romeo and Juliet".

                OTOH, the Marimite novels, despite (because of?) their utter goofiness and
                Yumi's brain meltdowns, pretty much closely captures alot of my experiences
                in school. This and Utena - for the personailty types - are so far the
                closest I've found. A far cry from Rumble Fish" and the other dreck they
                made me read. lol


                Cheers,

                Erica

                Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                http://www.yuricon.org


                "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                Because fanfic does not have to suck
              • Johann Chua
                On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, Erica Friedman ... My sisters school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary Rosebud Ong, former NBI undercover agent.
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                  On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, "Erica Friedman"
                  <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                  > Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has
                  > a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the
                  > students attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for
                  > years - one all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without
                  > fail, juvenile deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the
                  > surface, with deep underlying anger and hatred of the authority they
                  > would become and abuse. )

                  My sisters' school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary "Rosebud"
                  Ong, former NBI undercover agent.

                  Clinton Planca had a few thinly-veiled remarks about his miserable
                  life in a Catholic school for Chinese boys--which I'm pretty sure is
                  mine, so I can relate--in his essay book THE MAD TEA PARTY.

                  (Over here Catholic schools are a dime a dozen; it's the Chinese
                  schools that have a rep for being good. Not sure how well deserved that
                  is.)
                • Resop
                  ... I don t think Yuuki will have a problem. My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for female mistress and male mistress? After all,
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                    --- what is a dooky <spookydooky@...> wrote:

                    > But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                    > that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                    > in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                    > heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                    > hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                    > inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                    > structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                    > Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                    > fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                    > on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                    > on everything ^_^)
                    >
                    > What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                    > Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                    > Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                    > idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                    > such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                    > of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                    > Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                    I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.

                    My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                    female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                    "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                    That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                    school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                    serves) right before New Years.

                    I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                    eye for the uke guy".

                    For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.

                    On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                    Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                    Craig
                  • Niki
                    ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                      > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
                      >
                      > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                      > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                      > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                      >
                      > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                      > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                      > serves) right before New Years.
                      >
                      > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                      > eye for the uke guy".
                      >
                      > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
                      >
                      > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                      > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                      I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
                      Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
                      the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
                      manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
                      circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
                      definitely what he's into.
                      I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
                      female/male "mistresses," though.

                      -Elae
                    • Erica Friedman
                      ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                        >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                        >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                        >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                        The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
                        all the other men in the family.

                        >
                        >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                        >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                        >serves) right before New Years.

                        I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
                        liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
                        Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
                        frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
                        parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


                        >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                        >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                        You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                        guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                        at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                        belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                        given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                        Cheers,

                        Erica
                      • atheniag
                        ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
                          wrote:
                          > what is a dooky wrote:
                          >
                          > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                          > >are actually Catholic.
                          > >
                          > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
                          other
                          > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
                          > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

                          She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
                          Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
                          Anglican. :-)

                          It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
                          wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
                          haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
                          either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
                          "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
                          we saw in Shiori.

                          (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
                          novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
                          details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
                          was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
                          tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
                          Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
                          school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
                          up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
                          difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
                          years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
                          was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
                          (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
                          wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
                          that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
                          tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
                          God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
                          her life to God, she could redeem it.

                          Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
                          possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
                          every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
                          with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
                          it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
                          Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
                          You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
                          could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
                          Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
                          she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


                          Also, her connection with Buddhism
                          > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
                          > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
                          of
                          > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
                          Shimako
                          > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

                          My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
                          childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
                          The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

                          I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
                          cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

                          I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
                          a secret increases the longer you hide it.


                          > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
                          statue,
                          > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
                          respects.

                          Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
                          'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
                          your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
                          that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
                          clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


                          > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
                          in
                          > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
                          way
                          > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

                          Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
                          and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
                          that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

                          Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
                          well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
                          here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


                          > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
                          not
                          > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
                          > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

                          I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
                          duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
                          What are her options?

                          They can
                          > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
                          > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
                          > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

                          I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

                          Sachiko may end up just not having any
                          > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

                          Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
                          personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
                          romance.

                          I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
                          her, really. lol

                          Hopefully she'll
                          > still have Yumi, though...

                          That's certainly one type of romance.

                          It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
                          she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
                          of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
                          wanting to marry for love.

                          If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
                          probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
                          married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

                          If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
                          Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
                          as an ornament.

                          There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
                          freeing herself from family obligations.


                          > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
                          validity
                          > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                          > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                          > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                          > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

                          "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
                          coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
                          age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
                          time.

                          What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
                          page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
                          itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
                          real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
                          that story is "literature." :-)

                          Cheers,

                          Erica
                        • Resop
                          ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                            --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                            > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                            > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                            > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                            > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
                            >
                            > You mean Yumi and Touko?

                            I stand corrected.

                            > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                            > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                            > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                            > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                            > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                            Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
                            share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
                            that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

                            Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                            self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                            yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                            the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                            out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
                            would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                            Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                            Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                            takes the Judo girl.

                            Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                            Touko would be sure to consider.

                            Craig
                          • Erica Friedman
                            ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                              >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                              >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                              >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                              >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                              >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                              >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
                              >Yoshino
                              >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                              >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                              >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                              >takes the Judo girl.
                              >
                              >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                              >Touko would be sure to consider.

                              It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
                              anything like a possible storyline:

                              It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
                              help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
                              realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
                              remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
                              shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
                              on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

                              And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
                              even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
                              for her soeur.

                              I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
                              Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
                              her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
                              the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
                              the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
                              makes no sense.

                              Cheers,

                              Erica
                            • runaway_donkey
                              ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                                wrote:
                                > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                                was gay or
                                > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                                was
                                > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                                understand
                                > what was going on with her.

                                alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                                believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                                acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                                herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                                other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                                men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                                attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                                >
                                > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                                > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                                > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                                >
                                > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                                woman" as do
                                > all the other men in the family.
                                >

                                i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                                sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                                sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                                (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                                using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                                particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                                that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                                something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                                only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                                > To me it seems that
                                > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                                relationship
                                > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                                like a clown
                                > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                                i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                                parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                                years side story.

                                > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                                all. My
                                > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                                the novels
                                > at all - an entirely new character.

                                i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                                souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                                are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                                far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                                that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                                way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                                after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                                soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                                and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                                girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                                shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                                shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                                shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                                turn out.

                                -alf
                              • Erica Friedman
                                ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                                  >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                  on with her.
                                  >
                                  >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                                  >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                                  >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                                  While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                                  :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                                  I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                                  knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                                  for lesban cues. LOL

                                  she generally puts
                                  >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                                  >other immensely).

                                  I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                                  it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                                  In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                                  warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                                  types and Sei knows it.

                                  and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                                  >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                                  >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                                  I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                                  Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                                  >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                                  >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                                  >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                                  >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                                  Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                                  to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                                  really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                                  take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                                  from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                                  to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                                  her.

                                  Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                                  same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                                  that make alot more sense.



                                  >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                                  >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                                  >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                                  >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                                  >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                                  >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                                  >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                                  >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                                  >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                                  >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                                  >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                                  >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                                  >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                                  >turn out.

                                  Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                                  Cheers,

                                  Erica

                                  Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                                  http://www.yuricon.org


                                  "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
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