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Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

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  • shirobara12
    Thanks so much for the review, Erica-san! ^^ (I can t believe noone replied to this before... ^^;; you should post this kinda article both here and in the Yuri
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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      Thanks so much for the review, Erica-san! ^^ (I can't believe noone
      replied to this before... ^^;; you should post this kinda article
      both here and in the Yuri ML, you'd certainly get a much bigger
      response there!)

      It's a bit sad that the novel makes clear that Sei & Shiori weren't
      skipping classes to go to the woods to be alone and make out (and
      maybe have sex, hehe), that everything was chaste between them,
      that the first time Sei tried to kiss Shiori was that time at
      the church... ("Iya! Maria-sama ga miteru dakara!" ^^;;)
      I mean, in the anime, it wasn't stated explicitly, so one could
      very well assume that they had already reached C by the time we see
      the two hugging at that cozy glade in the forest... ^.-

      Oh, by the way, I have a question!

      Quoting:

      > 8) On the last day of school for the term, a Xmas Eve service
      > is held at the church. Although Sei hasn't seen Shiori for weeks
      > (and she tells us that although she had put distance between
      > the, her yearning to be with Shiori grew with everyday they were
      > apart), Sei assumes that Shiori will have to attend the service.
      > She's right - and she sees Shiori there, looking well, and is
      > at peace for a moment.
      >
      > Later, of course, she wanders back to the church, in hopes of
      > running into Shiori, only to find Shiori waiting there for her.

      In the anime, at this point, Shiori runs to Sei, and without a word
      puts her arms around Sei's neck and offers her lips! And both girls
      share a kiss... *^^* And after that Shiori tells Sei that
      she can't stand to be separated from her, that she can't think of
      anybody or anything except her, that, when she prays to Maria-sama,
      it's Sei's face that appears before her eyes!! *^^* (so Sei beat
      the 2000-year-old ghost after all, hehe ^^) How's this in the book?
      Do they really have their first kiss there? And, if yes, what are
      Sei's thoughts on the matter? Does the author describe her feelings
      and impressions at her first kiss with another girl?

      White Rose (curious ^^)
    • Erin Subramanian
      Thanks for sharing all these notes, it was great to read them. :) Reading them makes me want to read the novel myself, maybe I ll get around to it someday. ^^
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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        Thanks for sharing all these notes, it was great to read them. :)
        Reading them makes me want to read the novel myself, maybe I'll get
        around to it someday. ^^

        A couple things:

        atheniag wrote:

        >Shiroi Hanabira
        >
        >
        This should be "Shiroki Hanabira," I think.

        >5) When Shiori rejects Sei's kiss in the church, her reasoning is
        >that "Maria-sama is watching." Sei goes cold and walks away, but not
        >before thinking that she had lost to a 2000 year old ghost. This was
        >in the anime and manga...but the next line, that Maria-sama was
        >nothing more than a stone statue, while she herself was living flesh,
        >wasn't. I thought that line was pretty great.
        >
        >
        There actually is a line like that in the manga: "I, a living being,
        lost to a statue, an artificial _thing_."

        Erin
      • Erica Friedman
        ... You re welcome. I do these reviews pretty much just for the YC ML, and eventually they go on Okazu. If people want to read them, they are very welcome to
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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          >From: "shirobara12" <shirobara12@...>
          >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

          >
          >Thanks so much for the review, Erica-san! ^^ (I can't believe noone
          >replied to this before... ^^;; you should post this kinda article
          >both here and in the Yuri ML, you'd certainly get a much bigger
          >response there!)

          You're welcome. I do these reviews pretty much just for the YC ML, and
          eventually they go on Okazu. If people want to read them, they are very
          welcome to come here! :-)

          >
          >It's a bit sad that the novel makes clear that Sei & Shiori weren't
          >skipping classes to go to the woods to be alone and make out (and
          >maybe have sex, hehe),

          They do spend every second together, but no, no skipping classes. :-) Sei
          doesn't start skipping classes until after Shiori rejects her in the church.


          >Oh, by the way, I have a question!
          >
          >Quoting:

          > > Later, of course, she wanders back to the church, in hopes of
          > > running into Shiori, only to find Shiori waiting there for her.
          >
          >In the anime, at this point, Shiori runs to Sei, and without a word
          >puts her arms around Sei's neck and offers her lips! And both girls
          >share a kiss... *^^* And after that Shiori tells Sei that
          >she can't stand to be separated from her, that she can't think of
          >anybody or anything except her, that, when she prays to Maria-sama,
          >it's Sei's face that appears before her eyes!! *^^* (so Sei beat
          >the 2000-year-old ghost after all, hehe ^^) How's this in the book?
          >Do they really have their first kiss there? And, if yes, what are
          >Sei's thoughts on the matter? Does the author describe her feelings
          >and impressions at her first kiss with another girl?

          The scene in the anime was pretty much identical to the book. They run to
          each other, embrace, hold hands, then kiss. Shiori's words are the same as
          the novel. But, no, Sei does not share anything about the kiss itself...it's
          actually pretty chaste for all that it is a kiss. The description is
          something like, "our lips touched as we shared a kiss," or something
          similar. No heavy-duty necking there.

          Sei also doesn't do the usual "that was my first kiss" obsession thing so
          common in shoujo. She's so focused on being with Shiori, that she really
          never thinks at all about what they might do once they are together.

          In a lot of ways, the kiss was almost an aside, I think. Sei never
          physically desired Shiori, or, at least, never realized that she did...it
          might have come in time if Shiori had remained.

          In any case, the answer to your question is - the anime was identical to the
          novel for that scene, except that they kissed behind the church, not in
          front of it. :-)


          Cheers,

          Erica

          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
          http://www.yuricon.org


          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
          The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

          Because fanfic does not have to suck
        • atheniag
          ... I m about 1/4 through Rosa Canina right now - I just wish i could read these faster! ... Quite right. :-) I ll fix it for Okazu. ... not ... was ...
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
            wrote:
            > Thanks for sharing all these notes, it was great to read them. :)
            > Reading them makes me want to read the novel myself, maybe I'll get
            > around to it someday. ^^

            I'm about 1/4 through "Rosa Canina" right now - I just wish i could
            read these faster!

            >
            > A couple things:
            >
            > atheniag wrote:
            >
            > >Shiroi Hanabira
            > >
            > >
            > This should be "Shiroki Hanabira," I think.

            Quite right. :-) I'll fix it for Okazu.

            >
            > >5) When Shiori rejects Sei's kiss in the church, her reasoning is
            > >that "Maria-sama is watching." Sei goes cold and walks away, but
            not
            > >before thinking that she had lost to a 2000 year old ghost. This
            was
            > >in the anime and manga...but the next line, that Maria-sama was
            > >nothing more than a stone statue, while she herself was living
            flesh,
            > >wasn't. I thought that line was pretty great.
            > >
            > >
            > There actually is a line like that in the manga: "I, a living being,
            > lost to a statue, an artificial _thing_."

            Yes, exactly. I really liked the specifics of Maria-sama being a stone
            statue of a 2000 year old ghost, and there's Sei, a 16-year old girl,
            shaking with need and having her heart broken.

            It's not fair to blame Shiori, I think, though. From her perspective,
            Sei has destroyed her whole world - cast into doubt everything she
            believed in, everything she thought she wanted...everything she
            suffered through was made meaningless by the look in Sei's eyes.

            It would make a cool fanfic, wouldn't it, to have the whole of Shiroki
            Hanabira from Shiori's perspective. :-)

            Cheers,


            Erica
          • runaway_donkey
            ... ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand that shiori s
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Yes, exactly. I really liked the specifics of Maria-sama being a stone
              > statue of a 2000 year old ghost, and there's Sei, a 16-year old girl,
              > shaking with need and having her heart broken.
              >
              > It's not fair to blame Shiori, I think, though. From her perspective,
              > Sei has destroyed her whole world - cast into doubt everything she
              > believed in, everything she thought she wanted...everything she
              > suffered through was made meaningless by the look in Sei's eyes.
              >
              > It would make a cool fanfic, wouldn't it, to have the whole of Shiroki
              > Hanabira from Shiori's perspective. :-)
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              >
              > Erica

              ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
              details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
              that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
              sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
              because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
              the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
              gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
              all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
              character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
              shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
              incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
              category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
              nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that the
              likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
              predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

              i know, i know.

              sachiko: i'll leave our relationship up to your imagination.

              not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
              i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
              something like that.

              -alf
            • what is a dooky
              ... with ... wasn t ... of ... marimite ... probably ... the ... Well, there s no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori) are actually Catholic.
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                > ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
                > details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
                > that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be
                with
                > sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
                > because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that
                wasn't
                > the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant
                of
                > gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in
                marimite
                > all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
                > character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is
                probably
                > shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
                > incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
                > category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
                > nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that
                the
                > likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
                > predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

                Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
                as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
                a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
                Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
                prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
                tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
                (although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
                the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
                like my old school, then ^_~

                But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                on everything ^_^)

                What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
                of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
                frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
                how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
                (behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
                (although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
                her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
                on it...

                I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
                issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
                uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
                so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
                does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
                she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

                Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
                writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
                at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
                Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
                be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
                deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
                better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
                happen ^_~)

                dooky
              • Erin Subramanian
                ... What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she s Catholic (or some other kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a family that
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                  what is a dooky wrote:

                  >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                  >are actually Catholic.
                  >
                  What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some other
                  kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
                  family that runs a Buddhist temple. Also, her connection with Buddhism
                  is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
                  Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation of
                  the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless Shimako
                  and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?
                  Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria statue,
                  although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other respects.
                  In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief in
                  Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the way
                  Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic. My basis for
                  saying this is these lines from Chapter 20 of the manga:
                  "I'm not afraid of being cursed.
                  Jesus of Nazareth and his mother, Mary, both passed away long ago.
                  After almost 2000 years, even a ghost would get tired.
                  And if Mary is close to God, she should save a bad little lamb like me.
                  ----Now! Come down here and save my lost soul, quickly!
                  Amen!!
                  And if you can't save me, then don't touch me.
                  Just forget about me."
                  So either she has some sort of (skeptical) belief in Mary, or her
                  sarcasm here went over my head. lol.

                  >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                  >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                  >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                  >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                  >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                  >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                  >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                  >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                  >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                  >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                  >on everything ^_^)
                  >
                  >
                  I think in this case it has to do with running the family business, not
                  just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
                  somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru. They can
                  each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
                  comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
                  exactly that in a fanfic... lol). Sachiko may end up just not having any
                  real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :( Hopefully she'll
                  still have Yumi, though...

                  >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                  >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                  >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                  >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                  >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                  >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                  >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^
                  >
                  >
                  Yes, it's too bad that Sachiko's illusions were shattered already,
                  although they certainly wouldn't have survived the wedding (and wedding
                  night) intact anyway, unless Suguru had made a deliberate effort to
                  preserve them.
                  Poor Yuuki... lol. But hey, if he ends up being happy with Suguru, I
                  won't complain. ;)

                  >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
                  >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                  >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                  >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                  >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
                  >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
                  >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
                  >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
                  >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
                  >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
                  >on it...
                  >
                  >
                  Let's not forget bisexuality either. It's entirely possible that one or
                  more of the girls are bisexual as well, and hopefully not just BUG (Bi
                  Until Graduation). I'm really not sure what I think about Sachiko's
                  sexuality; I don't think we've really seen any evidence to point in any
                  direction. I think her feelings for Suguru were more of a girlhood crush
                  than a desire for a real relationship with him, and we haven't seen her
                  checking out any girls, either. lol.
                  I'm not really sure whether or not Sachiko would act on her feelings if
                  she fell in love with a woman. I feel like I don't know her character
                  well enough to predict either way. I'd root for them getting together,
                  of course, but I have no idea how plausible it would be.

                  >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
                  >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
                  >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
                  >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
                  >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
                  >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.
                  >
                  >
                  Do you think the novels are going to go that far? I kind of assumed they
                  would just cover Yumi's time at Lillian. Would Sachiko be married right
                  after she graduated, or would she get to go to college and whatnot first?

                  Erin
                • Erica Friedman
                  ... Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven t read far enough along to
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                    >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                    >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2
                    >Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:26:05 -0000
                    >
                    >
                    >ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
                    >details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
                    >that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
                    >sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
                    >because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
                    >the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
                    >gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
                    >all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism?


                    Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly
                    religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven't read far enough along
                    to say whenther Shimako is or not...but frankly, I don't see it.)

                    Neither are any of the girls gay, from what I can see. They have naturally
                    formed close emotional ties with deeply beloved onee-sama, but that's not
                    the same as physically desiring another women. (Or, I should say, it is not
                    considered to be the same in this context.)


                    sure, the only
                    >character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
                    >shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
                    >incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
                    >category is sei. sei's pretty much out.

                    In the third novel, Sei does try and figure out what she is feeling - but
                    when she looks at stories of homosexual love, she isn't seeing anything that
                    reflects her feelings... the byline used on the manga is something like
                    "This is more than homosexuality, but can it be called "true love"?"

                    Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she was gay or
                    not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it was
                    possible that the next year was when she might really start to understand
                    what was going on with her.

                    shiori, despite becoming a
                    >nun, will probably still be a gay nun.

                    For Shiori...well, if she was that religious, and I think she genuinely was,
                    falling in love with Sei was the worst possible thing that could ever happen
                    to her. And since - as Sei tells us - they really had no possibility of a
                    happy future together, yes, she sacrifices her love for her faith. (I am
                    also of the opinion that her faith too will falter over time, and she'll end
                    up another lesbian ex-nun, but I digress...lol)



                    but are we to assume that the
                    >likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
                    >predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?


                    For the other girls, I don't think there's a question at all - they will
                    end up marrying a man at some point, some for love, some for convenience, or
                    money, or security...much like most women in this world do, even now.


                    >not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
                    >i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
                    >something like that.

                    I'm betting she ends up marrying Kashiwagi anyway. She might dissolve their
                    pre-arrnaged marriage arrangement, but unless she can find an equally
                    powerful guy to marry - one that would be just as or more beneficial for her
                    family's company - methinks poor Sachiko is S.O.L.

                    Cheers,

                    Erica
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students attending
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                      >From: "what is a dooky" <spookydooky@...>
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

                      >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                      >are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
                      >as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
                      >a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
                      >Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
                      >prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
                      >tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
                      >(although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
                      >the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
                      >like my old school, then ^_~

                      Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a
                      elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students
                      attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for years - one
                      all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without fail, juvenile
                      deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the surface, with deep
                      underlying anger and hatred of the authority they would become and abuse. )

                      In the course of nearly 20 years of living near and working with students
                      from these schools, I met exactly one girl who had genuine faith.


                      >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                      >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                      >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                      >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                      >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                      >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                      >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                      >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                      >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                      >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                      >on everything ^_^)

                      Scary thought, because neityher anime nor my posts are authoritative! :-)

                      From what I can see, there is enormous pressure in Japan to be married. To
                      the point where it is simply easier to marry and be miserable than to buck
                      the tide. In Sachiko's existence, she and her husband, whoever he ends up
                      being, will likely hardly ever interact anyway - her family clearly ruinson
                      that mens' world/womens' world that the rest of the world does, (with the
                      exception of our freaky society that believes that men and women ought to,
                      despite all evidence to the contrary, actually like to be with one
                      another...!)

                      Whoever Sachiko ends up marrying, she'll be spending more time with the
                      women in her life than her husband, anyway.


                      >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                      >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                      >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                      >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                      >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                      >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                      >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                      Yup and yup. :-)

                      >
                      >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
                      >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                      >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                      >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                      >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
                      >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
                      >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
                      >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
                      >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
                      >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
                      >on it...

                      I don't agree with Yumi, myself. Rei and Yoshino, definitely. In fact, them
                      more than Sei. I can see Sei falling in love with whoever catcher her heart
                      at that moment, while Yoshino and ei are so entirely focused on one anther
                      it's actually a tad creepy.

                      Sachiko has to be straight - only straight girls hate men that much. :-) And
                      we already know that Kashiwagi was her first love. Not that she couldn't
                      potentially fall in love with another woman...I just don't see it. In fact,
                      in the end, Sachiko will probably be gald to marry Kashiwagi in the end - he
                      won't demand constant sex and she can continue to dislike him cordially for
                      their entire life. :-)


                      >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
                      >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
                      >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
                      >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
                      >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
                      >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

                      Sachiko meets a rock star on tour and runs off with him to London? ;-)


                      >Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
                      >writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
                      >at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
                      >Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
                      >be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
                      >deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
                      >better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
                      >happen ^_~)


                      I agree that she's a good writer...but it's not just writing "downright
                      miserable". I think she manages to really portray the complex emotional
                      states of 15-17 year olds in a way that darn few adults can.

                      I was walking through a book store, looking at all the titles for school
                      reading, remembering how many of them sucked so utterly - and how very few
                      of them reflected anything at all like what me or my friends felt or talked
                      about...in fact, the closest thing I found to capturing anything like being
                      in high school was "Romeo and Juliet".

                      OTOH, the Marimite novels, despite (because of?) their utter goofiness and
                      Yumi's brain meltdowns, pretty much closely captures alot of my experiences
                      in school. This and Utena - for the personailty types - are so far the
                      closest I've found. A far cry from Rumble Fish" and the other dreck they
                      made me read. lol


                      Cheers,

                      Erica

                      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                      http://www.yuricon.org


                      "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                      The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                      Because fanfic does not have to suck
                    • Johann Chua
                      On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, Erica Friedman ... My sisters school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary Rosebud Ong, former NBI undercover agent.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                        On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, "Erica Friedman"
                        <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                        > Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has
                        > a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the
                        > students attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for
                        > years - one all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without
                        > fail, juvenile deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the
                        > surface, with deep underlying anger and hatred of the authority they
                        > would become and abuse. )

                        My sisters' school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary "Rosebud"
                        Ong, former NBI undercover agent.

                        Clinton Planca had a few thinly-veiled remarks about his miserable
                        life in a Catholic school for Chinese boys--which I'm pretty sure is
                        mine, so I can relate--in his essay book THE MAD TEA PARTY.

                        (Over here Catholic schools are a dime a dozen; it's the Chinese
                        schools that have a rep for being good. Not sure how well deserved that
                        is.)
                      • Resop
                        ... I don t think Yuuki will have a problem. My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for female mistress and male mistress? After all,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                          --- what is a dooky <spookydooky@...> wrote:

                          > But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                          > that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                          > in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                          > heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                          > hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                          > inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                          > structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                          > Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                          > fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                          > on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                          > on everything ^_^)
                          >
                          > What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                          > Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                          > Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                          > idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                          > such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                          > of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                          > Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                          I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.

                          My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                          female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                          "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                          That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                          school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                          serves) right before New Years.

                          I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                          eye for the uke guy".

                          For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.

                          On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                          Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                          Craig
                        • Niki
                          ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                            > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
                            >
                            > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                            > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                            > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                            >
                            > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                            > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                            > serves) right before New Years.
                            >
                            > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                            > eye for the uke guy".
                            >
                            > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
                            >
                            > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                            > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                            I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
                            Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
                            the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
                            manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
                            circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
                            definitely what he's into.
                            I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
                            female/male "mistresses," though.

                            -Elae
                          • Erica Friedman
                            ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                              >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                              >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                              >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                              >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                              >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                              The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
                              all the other men in the family.

                              >
                              >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                              >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                              >serves) right before New Years.

                              I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
                              liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
                              Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
                              frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
                              parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


                              >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                              >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                              You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                              guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                              at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                              belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                              given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                              Cheers,

                              Erica
                            • atheniag
                              ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
                                wrote:
                                > what is a dooky wrote:
                                >
                                > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                                > >are actually Catholic.
                                > >
                                > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
                                other
                                > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
                                > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

                                She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
                                Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
                                Anglican. :-)

                                It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
                                wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
                                haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
                                either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
                                "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
                                we saw in Shiori.

                                (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
                                novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
                                details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
                                was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
                                tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
                                Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
                                school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
                                up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
                                difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
                                years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
                                was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
                                (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
                                wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
                                that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
                                tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
                                God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
                                her life to God, she could redeem it.

                                Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
                                possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
                                every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
                                with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
                                it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
                                Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
                                You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
                                could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
                                Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
                                she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


                                Also, her connection with Buddhism
                                > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
                                > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
                                of
                                > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
                                Shimako
                                > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

                                My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
                                childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
                                The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

                                I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
                                cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

                                I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
                                a secret increases the longer you hide it.


                                > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
                                statue,
                                > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
                                respects.

                                Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
                                'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
                                your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
                                that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
                                clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


                                > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
                                in
                                > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
                                way
                                > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

                                Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
                                and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
                                that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

                                Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
                                well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
                                here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


                                > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
                                not
                                > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
                                > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

                                I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
                                duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
                                What are her options?

                                They can
                                > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
                                > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
                                > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

                                I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

                                Sachiko may end up just not having any
                                > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

                                Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
                                personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
                                romance.

                                I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
                                her, really. lol

                                Hopefully she'll
                                > still have Yumi, though...

                                That's certainly one type of romance.

                                It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
                                she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
                                of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
                                wanting to marry for love.

                                If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
                                probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
                                married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

                                If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
                                Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
                                as an ornament.

                                There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
                                freeing herself from family obligations.


                                > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
                                validity
                                > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                                > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                                > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                                > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

                                "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
                                coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
                                age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
                                time.

                                What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
                                page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
                                itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
                                real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
                                that story is "literature." :-)

                                Cheers,

                                Erica
                              • Resop
                                ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                  --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                                  > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                                  > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                                  > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
                                  >
                                  > You mean Yumi and Touko?

                                  I stand corrected.

                                  > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                                  > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                                  > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                                  > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                                  > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                                  Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
                                  share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
                                  that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

                                  Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                                  self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                                  yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                                  the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                                  out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
                                  would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                                  Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                                  Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                                  takes the Judo girl.

                                  Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                                  Touko would be sure to consider.

                                  Craig
                                • Erica Friedman
                                  ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                    >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                                    >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                                    >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                                    >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                                    >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                                    >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                                    >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
                                    >Yoshino
                                    >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                                    >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                                    >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                                    >takes the Judo girl.
                                    >
                                    >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                                    >Touko would be sure to consider.

                                    It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
                                    anything like a possible storyline:

                                    It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
                                    help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
                                    realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
                                    remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
                                    shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
                                    on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

                                    And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
                                    even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
                                    for her soeur.

                                    I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
                                    Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
                                    her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
                                    the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
                                    the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
                                    makes no sense.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Erica
                                  • runaway_donkey
                                    ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                                      was gay or
                                      > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                                      was
                                      > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                                      understand
                                      > what was going on with her.

                                      alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                                      believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                                      acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                                      herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                                      other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                                      men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                                      attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                                      >
                                      > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                                      > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                                      > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                                      >
                                      > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                                      woman" as do
                                      > all the other men in the family.
                                      >

                                      i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                                      sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                                      sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                                      (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                                      using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                                      particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                                      that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                                      something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                                      only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                                      > To me it seems that
                                      > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                                      relationship
                                      > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                                      like a clown
                                      > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                                      i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                                      parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                                      years side story.

                                      > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                                      all. My
                                      > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                                      the novels
                                      > at all - an entirely new character.

                                      i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                                      souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                                      are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                                      far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                                      that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                                      way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                                      after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                                      soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                                      and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                                      girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                                      shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                                      shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                                      shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                                      turn out.

                                      -alf
                                    • Erica Friedman
                                      ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 4, 2005
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                                        >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                                        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                        on with her.
                                        >
                                        >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                                        >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                                        >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                                        While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                                        :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                                        I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                                        knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                                        for lesban cues. LOL

                                        she generally puts
                                        >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                                        >other immensely).

                                        I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                                        it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                                        In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                                        warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                                        types and Sei knows it.

                                        and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                                        >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                                        >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                                        I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                                        Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                                        >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                                        >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                                        >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                                        >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                                        Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                                        to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                                        really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                                        take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                                        from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                                        to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                                        her.

                                        Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                                        same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                                        that make alot more sense.



                                        >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                                        >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                                        >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                                        >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                                        >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                                        >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                                        >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                                        >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                                        >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                                        >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                                        >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                                        >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                                        >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                                        >turn out.

                                        Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                                        Cheers,

                                        Erica

                                        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                                        http://www.yuricon.org


                                        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
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