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Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

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  • atheniag
    One last thing I forgot from the first half! This was in the manga, but not the anime, and it was a separate little illustrated manga that ran in Cobalt
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 25, 2005
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      One last thing I forgot from the first half!

      This was in the manga, but not the anime, and it was a separate
      little illustrated manga that ran in Cobalt Shueisha, as well:

      After Yumi leaves Sei to walk Kasuga-san to the Principal's office
      (and how creepy would it be if you suddenly realized that your school
      principal, who is a nun, had tried to commit suicide because of a
      tragic lesbian love affair when she was your age???) Yumi meets up
      with Sachiko, who gives her a Christmas present of a handkerchief.
      Yumi is upset because she has nothing to give her onee-sama, but
      Sachiko tells her that it would be nice if she could have one of
      Yumi's hair ribbons – which she takes from Yumi's hair and ties it
      into her own. (You gotta give Sachiko credit for being uber-romantic
      there...)

      Yumi and Sachiko walk off to the Rose Mansion hand in hand and Yumi
      thinks that she is so happy that she almost wants to cry.

      Awww...


      Shiroi Hanabira


      1) It was an accident that Sei was there to meet Shiori – she had
      woken up too early that morning and was at the school too early. Sei
      tells us that she was not a very social person – she was aloof and
      anti-social, spending most of her time reading novels by herself.

      The first half of this chapter is almost identical to the anime and
      manga. They cut out only minor descriptions. In fact – very little
      was changed or cut out of this chapter. I was pretty impressed.

      2) In the greenhouse, as Shiori sits by Sei in the warm air, Sei is
      overcome with the desire to do *something* but she doesn't know what.
      Her heart is beating, her body is shaking and all she can think of is
      that she wants to be in one body with Shiori.

      This scene was brilliant, btw – the descriptions of Sei's reactions
      and need were, to be blunt, exactly the mirror of my own at that age,
      in that situation. It was, not surprisingly, a very powerful and sexy
      scene.

      3) The one chapter that was cut out in its entirety was basically a
      monologue in which Sei recounts her growing infatuation with Shiori.

      After the greenhouse, she is obsessed with the need to understand
      what these feelings are. She couldn't be sure whether or not it was
      romantic love – she knew she loved Shiori's soul, her spirit, but she
      felt that Shiori's body was just decoration for the inner self.

      Sei reads a lot of love novels, to try and see if this is what she's
      feeling – the only thing she learns is that she really comes to hate
      love novels. lol

      So, Sei starts looking at books about homosexual love, but she finds
      nothing that really reflects what she's feeling. (Again, this jibed
      with my personal experience - interestingly, *this* novel is quite
      realistic, which bucks the trend and once again points out that Koono
      Oyuki is a really good writer.)

      Finally, she turns to textbooks on reproduction to figure out why she
      felt this way, and determines only that something in her is broken –
      but she's no closer to understanding what it is, or why.

      4) During the planning for the school festival, Sei asks her onee-
      sama to dissolve their bond, because she had not intention of taking
      Shiori as a soeur. This scene is in the manga too, not the anime. Her
      onee-sama says that she did not take Sei as soeur to have Sei take a
      soeur, she took Sei as her little sister to be by her side until she
      graduates. I think that this scene very neatly characterizes the
      White Rose family as we see it, since Sei has a similar situation
      with Shimako, and Shimako with Noriko.

      5) When Shiori rejects Sei's kiss in the church, her reasoning is
      that "Maria-sama is watching." Sei goes cold and walks away, but not
      before thinking that she had lost to a 2000 year old ghost. This was
      in the anime and manga...but the next line, that Maria-sama was
      nothing more than a stone statue, while she herself was living flesh,
      wasn't. I thought that line was pretty great.

      6) As her grades slip, she is called into the teacher's staff room
      and asked why, Sei fantasizes about saying, "Because Kubo Shiori
      broke my heart, what are you going to do about it?"

      7) Sei is called to the Guidance Office during the break after exams
      (her exam results were the worst score she'd ever gotten.) Sei
      figures that its about the grades and absences, but when she sees
      that both her homeroom teacher and Shiori's homeroom teacher are
      there, she feels sick, because she knows that her relationship with
      Shiori will come up.

      When she's confronted with the relationship, she turns, not to her
      homeroom teacher (who brought it up) or her mother (who is quite
      hysterical by this point) but to the Principal, because she knows
      that Shiori has stayed with her, and because Sei assumes that she
      knows that Shiori is a good person.

      At the end of the scene, as she's leaving, the Principal's final shot
      about not being part of the people and activities around her is
      lonely, Sei realizes that, of all the people in the room, only the
      Principal knew - really understood - what the real relationship
      between Sei and Shiori was. Obviously, from our perspective, we know
      why...but Sei doesn't – all she knows is that her feelings were
      completely transparent to this woman, and it terrifies her.

      8) On the last day of school for the term, a Xmas Eve service is held
      at the church. Although Sei hasn't seen Shiori for weeks (and she
      tells us that although she had put distance between the, her yearning
      to be with Shiori grew with everyday they were apart), Sei assumes
      that Shiori will have to attend the service. She's right – and she
      sees Shiori there, looking well, and is at peace for a moment.

      Later, of course, she wanders back to the church, in hopes of running
      into Shiori, only to find Shiori waiting there for her.


      9) While waiting for Shiori to show at the train station, (she waits
      more than 6 hours....) she is approached by a drunken guy and an OL
      who ask if she's alright. Sei feels tears well up, but she ruthlessly
      holds them in. The OL and guy hang around and she thinks to herself
      that this is a special punishment....(Which, btw, brings me to a
      difference in manga and novel. In the novel she doesn't ever equate
      her feelings for Shiori with punishment for her scoffing at god.)

      10) When the third term begins, her onee-sama keeps Sei very busy, so
      she can't brood. Sei sucks it up, because she knows that she had
      slacked for the last two terms.

      Sei cuts her hair, because looking at her own long hair makes her
      think of Shiori's long hair – so she gets rid of it.

      11) Sei finally reads the letter Shiori left her in mid-February.
      Afterwards, she thinks about Shiori's words, and comes to the
      conclusion that, if they *had* run away, they probably would have had
      no other choice but to kill themselves, that they really didn't have
      a bright future. Sei feels that Shiori has some kind of premonition
      of that when she came to the station and saw Sei, so she felt she
      couldn't go. In retrospect Sei believes that it was better that they
      both lived.

      Interestingly, the book, manga and anime all end this story arc
      completely differently.

      In the anime, Sei joins Yumi as they head to the Xmas party at the
      Rose Mansion, telling us that it's her Happy Birthday.

      In the manga, we see her thinking about all this, and about her
      parting with her onee-sama who tells her that she will have a soeur
      of her own...then we see Shimako greet her with "onee-sama" and Sei
      looks a little surprised, then smiles and greets Shimako.

      In the novel, Sei thinks about her onee-sama's words, about how
      the "future heals the past" and we are told that, as Sei stares up at
      a blue sky between the sakura tree's branches, she has come to
      believe that those words are true.

      (This ending struck me as really poignant, but odd too, because I
      ended a Marimite fanfic with almost the exact same sentiment before I
      read this book. How weird is that? LOL)

      And there you have it – all the many, many notes I took as I read
      this novel. Next up should be even worse, since "Rosa Canina" was
      only a one-episode anime. :-)

      Cheers,

      Erica
    • shirobara12
      Thanks so much for the review, Erica-san! ^^ (I can t believe noone replied to this before... ^^;; you should post this kinda article both here and in the Yuri
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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        Thanks so much for the review, Erica-san! ^^ (I can't believe noone
        replied to this before... ^^;; you should post this kinda article
        both here and in the Yuri ML, you'd certainly get a much bigger
        response there!)

        It's a bit sad that the novel makes clear that Sei & Shiori weren't
        skipping classes to go to the woods to be alone and make out (and
        maybe have sex, hehe), that everything was chaste between them,
        that the first time Sei tried to kiss Shiori was that time at
        the church... ("Iya! Maria-sama ga miteru dakara!" ^^;;)
        I mean, in the anime, it wasn't stated explicitly, so one could
        very well assume that they had already reached C by the time we see
        the two hugging at that cozy glade in the forest... ^.-

        Oh, by the way, I have a question!

        Quoting:

        > 8) On the last day of school for the term, a Xmas Eve service
        > is held at the church. Although Sei hasn't seen Shiori for weeks
        > (and she tells us that although she had put distance between
        > the, her yearning to be with Shiori grew with everyday they were
        > apart), Sei assumes that Shiori will have to attend the service.
        > She's right - and she sees Shiori there, looking well, and is
        > at peace for a moment.
        >
        > Later, of course, she wanders back to the church, in hopes of
        > running into Shiori, only to find Shiori waiting there for her.

        In the anime, at this point, Shiori runs to Sei, and without a word
        puts her arms around Sei's neck and offers her lips! And both girls
        share a kiss... *^^* And after that Shiori tells Sei that
        she can't stand to be separated from her, that she can't think of
        anybody or anything except her, that, when she prays to Maria-sama,
        it's Sei's face that appears before her eyes!! *^^* (so Sei beat
        the 2000-year-old ghost after all, hehe ^^) How's this in the book?
        Do they really have their first kiss there? And, if yes, what are
        Sei's thoughts on the matter? Does the author describe her feelings
        and impressions at her first kiss with another girl?

        White Rose (curious ^^)
      • Erin Subramanian
        Thanks for sharing all these notes, it was great to read them. :) Reading them makes me want to read the novel myself, maybe I ll get around to it someday. ^^
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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          Thanks for sharing all these notes, it was great to read them. :)
          Reading them makes me want to read the novel myself, maybe I'll get
          around to it someday. ^^

          A couple things:

          atheniag wrote:

          >Shiroi Hanabira
          >
          >
          This should be "Shiroki Hanabira," I think.

          >5) When Shiori rejects Sei's kiss in the church, her reasoning is
          >that "Maria-sama is watching." Sei goes cold and walks away, but not
          >before thinking that she had lost to a 2000 year old ghost. This was
          >in the anime and manga...but the next line, that Maria-sama was
          >nothing more than a stone statue, while she herself was living flesh,
          >wasn't. I thought that line was pretty great.
          >
          >
          There actually is a line like that in the manga: "I, a living being,
          lost to a statue, an artificial _thing_."

          Erin
        • Erica Friedman
          ... You re welcome. I do these reviews pretty much just for the YC ML, and eventually they go on Okazu. If people want to read them, they are very welcome to
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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            >From: "shirobara12" <shirobara12@...>
            >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

            >
            >Thanks so much for the review, Erica-san! ^^ (I can't believe noone
            >replied to this before... ^^;; you should post this kinda article
            >both here and in the Yuri ML, you'd certainly get a much bigger
            >response there!)

            You're welcome. I do these reviews pretty much just for the YC ML, and
            eventually they go on Okazu. If people want to read them, they are very
            welcome to come here! :-)

            >
            >It's a bit sad that the novel makes clear that Sei & Shiori weren't
            >skipping classes to go to the woods to be alone and make out (and
            >maybe have sex, hehe),

            They do spend every second together, but no, no skipping classes. :-) Sei
            doesn't start skipping classes until after Shiori rejects her in the church.


            >Oh, by the way, I have a question!
            >
            >Quoting:

            > > Later, of course, she wanders back to the church, in hopes of
            > > running into Shiori, only to find Shiori waiting there for her.
            >
            >In the anime, at this point, Shiori runs to Sei, and without a word
            >puts her arms around Sei's neck and offers her lips! And both girls
            >share a kiss... *^^* And after that Shiori tells Sei that
            >she can't stand to be separated from her, that she can't think of
            >anybody or anything except her, that, when she prays to Maria-sama,
            >it's Sei's face that appears before her eyes!! *^^* (so Sei beat
            >the 2000-year-old ghost after all, hehe ^^) How's this in the book?
            >Do they really have their first kiss there? And, if yes, what are
            >Sei's thoughts on the matter? Does the author describe her feelings
            >and impressions at her first kiss with another girl?

            The scene in the anime was pretty much identical to the book. They run to
            each other, embrace, hold hands, then kiss. Shiori's words are the same as
            the novel. But, no, Sei does not share anything about the kiss itself...it's
            actually pretty chaste for all that it is a kiss. The description is
            something like, "our lips touched as we shared a kiss," or something
            similar. No heavy-duty necking there.

            Sei also doesn't do the usual "that was my first kiss" obsession thing so
            common in shoujo. She's so focused on being with Shiori, that she really
            never thinks at all about what they might do once they are together.

            In a lot of ways, the kiss was almost an aside, I think. Sei never
            physically desired Shiori, or, at least, never realized that she did...it
            might have come in time if Shiori had remained.

            In any case, the answer to your question is - the anime was identical to the
            novel for that scene, except that they kissed behind the church, not in
            front of it. :-)


            Cheers,

            Erica

            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
            http://www.yuricon.org


            "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
            The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

            Because fanfic does not have to suck
          • atheniag
            ... I m about 1/4 through Rosa Canina right now - I just wish i could read these faster! ... Quite right. :-) I ll fix it for Okazu. ... not ... was ...
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 2, 2005
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
              wrote:
              > Thanks for sharing all these notes, it was great to read them. :)
              > Reading them makes me want to read the novel myself, maybe I'll get
              > around to it someday. ^^

              I'm about 1/4 through "Rosa Canina" right now - I just wish i could
              read these faster!

              >
              > A couple things:
              >
              > atheniag wrote:
              >
              > >Shiroi Hanabira
              > >
              > >
              > This should be "Shiroki Hanabira," I think.

              Quite right. :-) I'll fix it for Okazu.

              >
              > >5) When Shiori rejects Sei's kiss in the church, her reasoning is
              > >that "Maria-sama is watching." Sei goes cold and walks away, but
              not
              > >before thinking that she had lost to a 2000 year old ghost. This
              was
              > >in the anime and manga...but the next line, that Maria-sama was
              > >nothing more than a stone statue, while she herself was living
              flesh,
              > >wasn't. I thought that line was pretty great.
              > >
              > >
              > There actually is a line like that in the manga: "I, a living being,
              > lost to a statue, an artificial _thing_."

              Yes, exactly. I really liked the specifics of Maria-sama being a stone
              statue of a 2000 year old ghost, and there's Sei, a 16-year old girl,
              shaking with need and having her heart broken.

              It's not fair to blame Shiori, I think, though. From her perspective,
              Sei has destroyed her whole world - cast into doubt everything she
              believed in, everything she thought she wanted...everything she
              suffered through was made meaningless by the look in Sei's eyes.

              It would make a cool fanfic, wouldn't it, to have the whole of Shiroki
              Hanabira from Shiori's perspective. :-)

              Cheers,


              Erica
            • runaway_donkey
              ... ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand that shiori s
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Yes, exactly. I really liked the specifics of Maria-sama being a stone
                > statue of a 2000 year old ghost, and there's Sei, a 16-year old girl,
                > shaking with need and having her heart broken.
                >
                > It's not fair to blame Shiori, I think, though. From her perspective,
                > Sei has destroyed her whole world - cast into doubt everything she
                > believed in, everything she thought she wanted...everything she
                > suffered through was made meaningless by the look in Sei's eyes.
                >
                > It would make a cool fanfic, wouldn't it, to have the whole of Shiroki
                > Hanabira from Shiori's perspective. :-)
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                >
                > Erica

                ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
                details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
                that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
                sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
                because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
                the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
                gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
                all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
                character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
                shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
                incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
                category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
                nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that the
                likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
                predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

                i know, i know.

                sachiko: i'll leave our relationship up to your imagination.

                not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
                i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
                something like that.

                -alf
              • what is a dooky
                ... with ... wasn t ... of ... marimite ... probably ... the ... Well, there s no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori) are actually Catholic.
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                  > ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
                  > details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
                  > that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be
                  with
                  > sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
                  > because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that
                  wasn't
                  > the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant
                  of
                  > gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in
                  marimite
                  > all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism? sure, the only
                  > character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is
                  probably
                  > shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
                  > incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
                  > category is sei. sei's pretty much out. shiori, despite becoming a
                  > nun, will probably still be a gay nun. but are we to assume that
                  the
                  > likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
                  > predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?

                  Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                  are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
                  as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
                  a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
                  Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
                  prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
                  tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
                  (although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
                  the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
                  like my old school, then ^_~

                  But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                  that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                  in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                  heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                  hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                  inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                  structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                  Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                  fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                  on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                  on everything ^_^)

                  What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                  Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                  Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                  idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                  such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                  of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                  Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                  As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
                  of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                  straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                  into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                  everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
                  frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
                  how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
                  (behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
                  (although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
                  her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
                  on it...

                  I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
                  issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
                  uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
                  so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
                  does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
                  she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

                  Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
                  writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
                  at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
                  Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
                  be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
                  deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
                  better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
                  happen ^_~)

                  dooky
                • Erin Subramanian
                  ... What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she s Catholic (or some other kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a family that
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                    what is a dooky wrote:

                    >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                    >are actually Catholic.
                    >
                    What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some other
                    kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
                    family that runs a Buddhist temple. Also, her connection with Buddhism
                    is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
                    Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation of
                    the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless Shimako
                    and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?
                    Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria statue,
                    although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other respects.
                    In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief in
                    Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the way
                    Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic. My basis for
                    saying this is these lines from Chapter 20 of the manga:
                    "I'm not afraid of being cursed.
                    Jesus of Nazareth and his mother, Mary, both passed away long ago.
                    After almost 2000 years, even a ghost would get tired.
                    And if Mary is close to God, she should save a bad little lamb like me.
                    ----Now! Come down here and save my lost soul, quickly!
                    Amen!!
                    And if you can't save me, then don't touch me.
                    Just forget about me."
                    So either she has some sort of (skeptical) belief in Mary, or her
                    sarcasm here went over my head. lol.

                    >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                    >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                    >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                    >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                    >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                    >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                    >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                    >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                    >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                    >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                    >on everything ^_^)
                    >
                    >
                    I think in this case it has to do with running the family business, not
                    just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
                    somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru. They can
                    each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
                    comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
                    exactly that in a fanfic... lol). Sachiko may end up just not having any
                    real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :( Hopefully she'll
                    still have Yumi, though...

                    >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                    >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                    >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                    >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                    >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                    >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                    >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^
                    >
                    >
                    Yes, it's too bad that Sachiko's illusions were shattered already,
                    although they certainly wouldn't have survived the wedding (and wedding
                    night) intact anyway, unless Suguru had made a deliberate effort to
                    preserve them.
                    Poor Yuuki... lol. But hey, if he ends up being happy with Suguru, I
                    won't complain. ;)

                    >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
                    >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                    >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                    >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                    >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
                    >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
                    >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
                    >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
                    >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
                    >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
                    >on it...
                    >
                    >
                    Let's not forget bisexuality either. It's entirely possible that one or
                    more of the girls are bisexual as well, and hopefully not just BUG (Bi
                    Until Graduation). I'm really not sure what I think about Sachiko's
                    sexuality; I don't think we've really seen any evidence to point in any
                    direction. I think her feelings for Suguru were more of a girlhood crush
                    than a desire for a real relationship with him, and we haven't seen her
                    checking out any girls, either. lol.
                    I'm not really sure whether or not Sachiko would act on her feelings if
                    she fell in love with a woman. I feel like I don't know her character
                    well enough to predict either way. I'd root for them getting together,
                    of course, but I have no idea how plausible it would be.

                    >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
                    >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
                    >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
                    >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
                    >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
                    >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.
                    >
                    >
                    Do you think the novels are going to go that far? I kind of assumed they
                    would just cover Yumi's time at Lillian. Would Sachiko be married right
                    after she graduated, or would she get to go to college and whatnot first?

                    Erin
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven t read far enough along to
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2
                      >Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:26:05 -0000
                      >
                      >
                      >ok, i read this book a while back, so i may not remember some of the
                      >details, but there was something i was confused about. i understand
                      >that shiori's faith was a strong reason she felt she couldn't be with
                      >sei, but did the book imply that this was a conflict specifically
                      >because of the homosexuality issue? i got the sense that that wasn't
                      >the main predicament. most of the characters seem pretty tolerant of
                      >gayness and not very religious, but are the relationships in marimite
                      >all doomed to die on the alter of catholicism?


                      Almost none of the characters in Marimite strike me as being particularly
                      religious...with the exception of Shiori. (I haven't read far enough along
                      to say whenther Shimako is or not...but frankly, I don't see it.)

                      Neither are any of the girls gay, from what I can see. They have naturally
                      formed close emotional ties with deeply beloved onee-sama, but that's not
                      the same as physically desiring another women. (Or, I should say, it is not
                      considered to be the same in this context.)


                      sure, the only
                      >character that comes close to being as faithful as shiori is probably
                      >shimako, but on the other hand the only character that
                      >incontrovertibly doesn't fit into "it was just a passing phase"
                      >category is sei. sei's pretty much out.

                      In the third novel, Sei does try and figure out what she is feeling - but
                      when she looks at stories of homosexual love, she isn't seeing anything that
                      reflects her feelings... the byline used on the manga is something like
                      "This is more than homosexuality, but can it be called "true love"?"

                      Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she was gay or
                      not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it was
                      possible that the next year was when she might really start to understand
                      what was going on with her.

                      shiori, despite becoming a
                      >nun, will probably still be a gay nun.

                      For Shiori...well, if she was that religious, and I think she genuinely was,
                      falling in love with Sei was the worst possible thing that could ever happen
                      to her. And since - as Sei tells us - they really had no possibility of a
                      happy future together, yes, she sacrifices her love for her faith. (I am
                      also of the opinion that her faith too will falter over time, and she'll end
                      up another lesbian ex-nun, but I digress...lol)



                      but are we to assume that the
                      >likes of sachiko and yumi will end up married to guys, like their
                      >predecessors? are the other girls supposed to be gay, or what?


                      For the other girls, I don't think there's a question at all - they will
                      end up marrying a man at some point, some for love, some for convenience, or
                      money, or security...much like most women in this world do, even now.


                      >not that i'm expecting everyone to angst about their sexuality, but
                      >i'd be pretty sad if the end had sachiko happily marrying yuuki or
                      >something like that.

                      I'm betting she ends up marrying Kashiwagi anyway. She might dissolve their
                      pre-arrnaged marriage arrangement, but unless she can find an equally
                      powerful guy to marry - one that would be just as or more beneficial for her
                      family's company - methinks poor Sachiko is S.O.L.

                      Cheers,

                      Erica
                    • Erica Friedman
                      ... Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students attending
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                        >From: "what is a dooky" <spookydooky@...>
                        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Notes from the third Marimite novel, Part 2

                        >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                        >are actually Catholic. Going to a Catholic school in Japan is, as far
                        >as I can gather, much more about status than religion. Sailor Moon is
                        >a good example of this: Rei attends a Catholic school despite being a
                        >Shinto priestess-in-training, simply becuase the school is very
                        >prestigious. Yes, there is a lot of Catholic symbolism and the odd
                        >tradition around, and it's probable that some of the students
                        >(although probably a small minority) are practising Catholics, but
                        >the religious aspect really doesn't go any deeper than that. A lot
                        >like my old school, then ^_~

                        Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has a
                        elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the students
                        attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for years - one
                        all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without fail, juvenile
                        deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the surface, with deep
                        underlying anger and hatred of the authority they would become and abuse. )

                        In the course of nearly 20 years of living near and working with students
                        from these schools, I met exactly one girl who had genuine faith.


                        >But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                        >that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                        >in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                        >heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                        >hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                        >inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                        >structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                        >Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                        >fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                        >on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                        >on everything ^_^)

                        Scary thought, because neityher anime nor my posts are authoritative! :-)

                        From what I can see, there is enormous pressure in Japan to be married. To
                        the point where it is simply easier to marry and be miserable than to buck
                        the tide. In Sachiko's existence, she and her husband, whoever he ends up
                        being, will likely hardly ever interact anyway - her family clearly ruinson
                        that mens' world/womens' world that the rest of the world does, (with the
                        exception of our freaky society that believes that men and women ought to,
                        despite all evidence to the contrary, actually like to be with one
                        another...!)

                        Whoever Sachiko ends up marrying, she'll be spending more time with the
                        women in her life than her husband, anyway.


                        >What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                        >Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                        >Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                        >idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                        >such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                        >of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                        >Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                        Yup and yup. :-)

                        >
                        >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the validity
                        >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                        >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                        >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                        >everyone else sort of hovering in between. I realise it can be a bit
                        >frustrating, but the point is that we don't know, and that's exactly
                        >how the author likes it. For my money, the most likely lesbians
                        >(behind Sei) are Yumi and Rei. I'm less convinced by Sachiko's case
                        >(although you could probably write an essay on this subject regarding
                        >her) but even if Sachiko was a lesbian, I can't really see her acting
                        >on it...

                        I don't agree with Yumi, myself. Rei and Yoshino, definitely. In fact, them
                        more than Sei. I can see Sei falling in love with whoever catcher her heart
                        at that moment, while Yoshino and ei are so entirely focused on one anther
                        it's actually a tad creepy.

                        Sachiko has to be straight - only straight girls hate men that much. :-) And
                        we already know that Kashiwagi was her first love. Not that she couldn't
                        potentially fall in love with another woman...I just don't see it. In fact,
                        in the end, Sachiko will probably be gald to marry Kashiwagi in the end - he
                        won't demand constant sex and she can continue to dislike him cordially for
                        their entire life. :-)


                        >I do wonder how the novels are going to cover the Sachiko/Suguru
                        >issue when the time finally comes. Konno Oyuki seems to be quite
                        >uncompromising and un-idealistic when it comes to this sort of thing,
                        >so that would suggest that they will marry. But on the other hand, it
                        >does seem a little too sad, even for this series. My hope is that
                        >she'll confound us all with some unforseen third option.

                        Sachiko meets a rock star on tour and runs off with him to London? ;-)


                        >Damn, that's some depressing stuff there. But I don't mind... we need
                        >writers like Konno Oyuki who aren't afraid to be downright miserable
                        >at times. Because let's face it, if I was in charge of writing
                        >Marimite, Sei would be married to Shiori, and Yumi and Sachiko would
                        >be makin' yuri. Oh, and Yoshino would be giving Rei the respect she
                        >deserves. Which I think proves beyond all doubt that Konno is a
                        >better writer than me (apart from the last bit, which really needs to
                        >happen ^_~)


                        I agree that she's a good writer...but it's not just writing "downright
                        miserable". I think she manages to really portray the complex emotional
                        states of 15-17 year olds in a way that darn few adults can.

                        I was walking through a book store, looking at all the titles for school
                        reading, remembering how many of them sucked so utterly - and how very few
                        of them reflected anything at all like what me or my friends felt or talked
                        about...in fact, the closest thing I found to capturing anything like being
                        in high school was "Romeo and Juliet".

                        OTOH, the Marimite novels, despite (because of?) their utter goofiness and
                        Yumi's brain meltdowns, pretty much closely captures alot of my experiences
                        in school. This and Utena - for the personailty types - are so far the
                        closest I've found. A far cry from Rumble Fish" and the other dreck they
                        made me read. lol


                        Cheers,

                        Erica

                        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                        http://www.yuricon.org


                        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                        Because fanfic does not have to suck
                      • Johann Chua
                        On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, Erica Friedman ... My sisters school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary Rosebud Ong, former NBI undercover agent.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:15:07 -0500, "Erica Friedman"
                          <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                          > Pretty much like schools in the US - the private Catholic school has
                          > a elite status (despite what I have personally encountered in the
                          > students attending same. I lived right near two Catholic schools for
                          > years - one all-boy, one all-girls. The girls were, almost without
                          > fail, juvenile deliquents. The boys were polished and polite on the
                          > surface, with deep underlying anger and hatred of the authority they
                          > would become and abuse. )

                          My sisters' school has some interesting alumnae, like Mary "Rosebud"
                          Ong, former NBI undercover agent.

                          Clinton Planca had a few thinly-veiled remarks about his miserable
                          life in a Catholic school for Chinese boys--which I'm pretty sure is
                          mine, so I can relate--in his essay book THE MAD TEA PARTY.

                          (Over here Catholic schools are a dime a dozen; it's the Chinese
                          schools that have a rep for being good. Not sure how well deserved that
                          is.)
                        • Resop
                          ... I don t think Yuuki will have a problem. My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for female mistress and male mistress? After all,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- what is a dooky <spookydooky@...> wrote:

                            > But when you ask a bout the likelihood of Sachiko being married off,
                            > that's an entirely different matter. Homosexuality is still an issue
                            > in Japan... just not for Christian reasons. In a culture that's still
                            > heavily dominated by family structure and the line of succession,
                            > hmosexuality isn't necessarily seen as immoral, but is often seen as
                            > inconvenient and selfish, since it messes up the traditional family
                            > structure. This is especially true of high-status families like
                            > Sachiko's, in which marriage is basically a tool to keep the family
                            > fortune secure. (At least, this is my interpretation of things based
                            > on anime and Erica's posts... my two primary sources for information
                            > on everything ^_^)
                            >
                            > What this means is that, yes, barring something truly unexpected,
                            > Sachiko is probably going to marry Suguru. It's a shame, because
                            > Sachiko seems to have made the best of this by subscribing to the
                            > idea of a romantic relationship with Suguru, while Suguru is under no
                            > such illusions, and will douubtless continue the Ogasawara tradition
                            > of having a lover on the side. The most we can hope for is that poor
                            > Yuuki manages to escape his clutches... ^_^

                            I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.

                            My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                            female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                            "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                            That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                            school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                            serves) right before New Years.

                            I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                            eye for the uke guy".

                            For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.

                            On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                            Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                            Craig
                          • Niki
                            ... I m thinking that you mean Yumi and not Yuuki in all of these- Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why the earlier comment
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                              > I don't think Yuuki will have a problem.
                              >
                              > My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                              > female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                              > "tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                              >
                              > That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                              > school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                              > serves) right before New Years.
                              >
                              > I remember someone else on the list referring to Suguru as "queer
                              > eye for the uke guy".
                              >
                              > For those reasons I don't think Yuuki will have a problem with Suguru.
                              >
                              > On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                              > Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                              I'm thinking that you mean "Yumi" and not "Yuuki" in all of these-
                              Yuuki is the brother that Suguru has attached himself to, hence why
                              the earlier comment said "The most we can hope for is that poor Yuuki
                              manages to escape his clutches... ^_^" I can't imagine ANY
                              circumstances in which Suguru and Yumi would hook up. o__O Yuuki is
                              definitely what he's into.
                              I would be interested in knowing if there are different words for
                              female/male "mistresses," though.

                              -Elae
                            • Erica Friedman
                              ... The text was fairly specific - Sachiko s father has another woman as do all the other men in the family. ... I don t think we need a bigger explanation
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                                >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                                >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                                >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?

                                The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another woman" as do
                                all the other men in the family.

                                >
                                >That would explain why Suguru (the handsome idol of his all boys
                                >school) would pick up Yuuki's younger brother at an arcade (if memory
                                >serves) right before New Years.

                                I don't think we need a bigger explanation for that outside of Kashiwagi
                                liking Yuuki and liking to tease him even more. To me it seems that
                                Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one relationship
                                frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs, like a clown
                                parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.


                                >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                                >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.

                                You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                                guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                                at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                                belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                                given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                                Cheers,

                                Erica
                              • atheniag
                                ... other ... She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say, Anglican.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Erin Subramanian <esubramanian1@c...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > what is a dooky wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Well, there's no evidence that any of the girls (apart from Shiori)
                                  > >are actually Catholic.
                                  > >
                                  > What about Shimako? I seem to recall that she's Catholic (or some
                                  other
                                  > kind of Christian? I can never remember ^^) despite being part of a
                                  > family that runs a Buddhist temple.

                                  She says she wants to be a nun, which while not being an exclusively
                                  Catholic thing, is certainly more likely to be Catholic than, say,
                                  Anglican. :-)

                                  It's true that Shimako tells us (by way of Noriko) that she wants or
                                  wanted to become a nun, (and here I'm drawing only on the anime as I
                                  haven't gotten this far in the novels and the manga hasn't gotten here
                                  either) we don't really see any sign of particular piety or
                                  "religiousness" in Shimako - certainly not the fervor for prayer that
                                  we saw in Shiori.

                                  (Which brings me to a point that I forgot to share re: the third
                                  novel. Sei tells us only the barest of details about Shiori, the same
                                  details we got in anime and manga - that her parents died while she
                                  was in middle school, that she lived with an uncle in Nagasaki then
                                  tranferred to Lillian. In the novel we learn only a few more things:
                                  Shiori's guardian in Tokyo is, in fact, our old buddy Saori, the
                                  school principal. That is why Shiori stays with her after she breaks
                                  up with Sei. The only other thing we learn is that Sei mentions how
                                  difficult, hard, painful, etc Shiori's life had been the last few
                                  years. Sei implies that Uncle was NOT a nice person and that Shiori
                                  was really, really glad to be away from Nagasaki. It is my opinion
                                  (based on nothing but gut feeling) that one of the reasons Shiori
                                  wanted so badly to become a nun was to escape her difficult life with
                                  that uncle - and to redeem it and give it some meaning. If she could
                                  tell herself that all her previous suffering brought her closer to
                                  God, then it would give the misery and pain some meaning. By turning
                                  her life to God, she could redeem it.

                                  Which is why I say, falling in love with Sei was the absolutely WORST
                                  possible thing that could have happened to Shiori. It cast into doubt
                                  every single thing she believed - and in a way that falling in love
                                  with a guy couldn't do. This was so so so against her convictions that
                                  it could only be seen as "one or the other." You can't be a pious
                                  Catholic and a lesbian - at least, not within Roman Catholic dogma.
                                  You can be a pious Catholic and a wife. You see the problem. Siori
                                  could only have *either* her redeemed life as a nun, *or* Sei. And, as
                                  Sei points out at the end of the book, they really had no future so
                                  she had to lose to Maria-sama....again.


                                  Also, her connection with Buddhism
                                  > is kind of a "dirty little secret" for her at school, as is Noriko's
                                  > Buddhism. To me, this would indicate that the religious orientation
                                  of
                                  > the school and its students isn't just a surface thing; unless
                                  Shimako
                                  > and Noriko are more worried about it than they should be?

                                  My gut feeling tells me that her desire to be a nun is kind of a
                                  childhood dream that became more important because she kept it hidden.
                                  The more of a secret it became, the more she would desire it.

                                  I'll have to wait until I get there, but I bet that once no one really
                                  cares if she wants to, she'll stop wanting to so much. :-)

                                  I'd guess that, yes, they are both worrying way too much. The power of
                                  a secret increases the longer you hide it.


                                  > Also, Yumi and the other students frequently pray at the Maria
                                  statue,
                                  > although that doesn't necessarily mean they're Christians in other
                                  respects.

                                  Yumi and Sei pray at a shrine on New Year's Day, too. :-) Doesn't make
                                  'em more Shinto. It's what you do, because, it's what you do. "Clap
                                  your hands and make a wish" said the tour guide. I thought it funny
                                  that he differentiated that from praying...which is essentially
                                  clapping your hands and making a wish. ;-)


                                  > In the Shiroki Hanabira arc, Sei seems to have some sort of belief
                                  in
                                  > Christianity, although I don't think she completely accepts it the
                                  way
                                  > Shiori and others do--she seems to be more of a skeptic.

                                  Very like most ex-Catholics, she isn't denying the existence of Mary
                                  and Jesus, just skeptical of the power they wield. I wouldn't think
                                  that makes her Christian, or not-Christian.

                                  Remember, Japan is still a country that is not monotheistic. Sei could
                                  well feel exactly the same about 3000 other gods. LOL "Sure, you're
                                  here - but what have you done for *me* today?"


                                  > I think in this case it has to do with running the family business,
                                  not
                                  > just securing the family fortune. But yes, I think it's at least
                                  > somewhat likely that Sachiko will end up married to Suguru.

                                  I agree. She's been raised her whole life completely inundated with
                                  duty to the family - this would be one more duty she has to fulfill.
                                  What are her options?

                                  They can
                                  > each have lovers on the side if they like, but I'm not sure how
                                  > comfortable Sachiko would be doing that (despite writing her doing
                                  > exactly that in a fanfic... lol).

                                  I'll have to track that one down... ;-)

                                  Sachiko may end up just not having any
                                  > real romantic/sexual relationships in her life. Aww. :(

                                  Something which is a lot more common today than people believe. I
                                  personally know several women who have married for reasons other than
                                  romance.

                                  I can see her having romance, but not taking a lover. Almost Heian of
                                  her, really. lol

                                  Hopefully she'll
                                  > still have Yumi, though...

                                  That's certainly one type of romance.

                                  It's very hard to imagine the kind of woman Sachiko will become. If
                                  she goes to school overseas, she might well come back with all sorts
                                  of bizarre radical ideas like her taking over the business herself, or
                                  wanting to marry for love.

                                  If she stays at Lillian, she will be surrounded by lesbians who are
                                  probably all incredibly closeted, who almost all go off and get
                                  married, then have love affairs with women on the side.

                                  If she goes elsewhere, she'll be killing time before she is married to
                                  Kashiwagi and cloistered in her house until she has to be dragged out
                                  as an ornament.

                                  There's not a whole lot of scenarios in which I can see her ever
                                  freeing herself from family obligations.


                                  > >As for the others (and leaving aside the arguments over the
                                  validity
                                  > >of such categorisation), it's hard to say whether they're gay or
                                  > >straight unless they have a declared love interest. Which puts Sei
                                  > >into the gay category and Eriko into the straight category, with
                                  > >everyone else sort of hovering in between.

                                  "Springtime of youth," yadda, yadda... :-) I think it is no
                                  coincidence that the bulk of anime and manga have characters in this
                                  age group - the sexual ambiguity is exactly what makes it such a free
                                  time.

                                  What fun, pointless conjecturing about the sexuality of words on a
                                  page. :-) Umberto Eco says that when a story begins to reach past
                                  itself, the characters are recreated and analyzed as if they were
                                  real, re-written and re-structured by a participating audience, then
                                  that story is "literature." :-)

                                  Cheers,

                                  Erica
                                • Resop
                                  ... I stand corrected. ... Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                    --- Erica Friedman <alecto_fury@...> wrote:

                                    > >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                                    > >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > >On the other hand, I could see Yuuki being "pressured" into making
                                    > >Sachiko's other relation (the pig-tailed heel girl) her petite soeur.
                                    >
                                    > You mean Yumi and Touko?

                                    I stand corrected.

                                    > I don't think that's likely to happen at all. My
                                    > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in the novels
                                    > at all - an entirely new character. (I base this solely on my irrational
                                    > belief that Konno Oyuki writes pretty much exactly what I would write in any
                                    > given situation, and *I* would have Yumi pick someone entirely new. LOL)

                                    Well, my thought was the irrational belief that since all the other girls who
                                    share a screen in the opening sequence of Marimite spring get paired up,
                                    that Yumi and Touko would follow suit.

                                    Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                                    self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                                    yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                                    the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                                    out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously, Yoshino
                                    would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                                    Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                                    Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                                    takes the Judo girl.

                                    Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                                    Touko would be sure to consider.

                                    Craig
                                  • Erica Friedman
                                    ... It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being anything like a possible storyline: It would be starkly out of character for
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                      >From: Resop <resop2@...>
                                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                                      >Now, there is another scenario that I have thought of, based on Touko's
                                      >self-image as a scheme-queen (she hasn't done the shoujo villain laugh
                                      >yet, but I'm sure that she has practiced it). The idea would be that
                                      >the girl who is helping Yoshino learn Kenpo decides she wants to help
                                      >out the yamayurikai (so she can be closer to Rei). Since, obviously,
                                      >Yoshino
                                      >would never accept her as a petite soeur and Yumi would never accept
                                      >Touko as her petite soeur (stay away from my grand soeur you hussy)
                                      >Touko comes up with the scheme where Yoshino takes Touko and Yumi
                                      >takes the Judo girl.
                                      >
                                      >Admittedly, not an idea anyone would be happy with, but one that
                                      >Touko would be sure to consider.

                                      It might make a nice fanfic, but I have several objections to it being
                                      anything like a possible storyline:

                                      It would be starkly out of character for Yoshino. Yoshino has no reason to
                                      help Touko and, in fact, disliked and suspected her long before Yumi even
                                      realized that there was a reason to. Not to mention the fact that, I can't
                                      remember her name, sadly, the girl you are referring to, (Chiharu maybe?)
                                      shows no real sign of being Yoshino's rival, per se, but is clearly dead set
                                      on trying to emulate Rei, rather than become her soeur.

                                      And as Yumi is Yoshino's friend, I seriously doubt she would choose the one
                                      even slightly potential rival in the whole of the school for Rei's attention
                                      for her soeur.

                                      I also don't see the ROI for Touko in this. Touko has all the access to
                                      Sachiko that she wants, since she is family, and Yumi has already invited
                                      her to help the Yamayurikai, so she is in and out of the Rose Mansion all
                                      the time. In fact, if anything, Touko seems rather unenthused about helping
                                      the YYK at the end of Parasol wo Sagashite. So conniving to become a member
                                      makes no sense.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Erica
                                    • runaway_donkey
                                      ... was gay or ... was ... understand ... alright, perhaps out was too strong a term. what i meant was, i believe that by the time of the novels, sei has
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 3, 2005
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                                        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Frankly, I don't think Sei had enough time to realize whether she
                                        was gay or
                                        > not. She lost Shiori immediately after kissing her, so for her, it
                                        was
                                        > possible that the next year was when she might really start to
                                        understand
                                        > what was going on with her.

                                        alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                                        believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                                        acceptance about her attraction to women. she generally puts
                                        herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                                        other immensely). and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                                        men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                                        attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                                        >
                                        > >My question is this, in Japanese are there two different words for
                                        > >female mistress and male mistress? After all, maybe the Ogasawara
                                        > >"tradition" isn't to take female mistresses at all?
                                        >
                                        > The text was fairly specific - Sachiko's father has "another
                                        woman" as do
                                        > all the other men in the family.
                                        >

                                        i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                                        sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                                        sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                                        (i'm not sure what that implies...) and they should take lovers,
                                        using either the word koibito or aijin, i forget which. neither is
                                        particularly gender specific. as for other words, the only thing
                                        that comes to mind is the word nigou-san, "ñ†‚³‚ñ, which means #2 or
                                        something like that. also not necessarily gender specific, but i've
                                        only heard it in reference to women, unlike koibito or aijin.

                                        > To me it seems that
                                        > Yuuki/Kasahiwagi is meant as a foil for Yumi/Sachiko - one
                                        relationship
                                        > frought with emotional intensity, the other played for laughs,
                                        like a clown
                                        > parodying a dramatic actor as he recites his lines.

                                        i always thought that the yuuki/kashiwagi relationship was more of a
                                        parallel with the yumi/sei relationship. kinda like in the new
                                        years side story.

                                        > You mean Yumi and Touko? I don't think that's likely to happen at
                                        all. My
                                        > guess is that Yumi will pick someone who has not yet appeared in
                                        the novels
                                        > at all - an entirely new character.

                                        i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                                        souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                                        are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                                        far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                                        that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                                        way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                                        after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                                        soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                                        and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                                        girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                                        shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                                        shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                                        shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                                        turn out.

                                        -alf
                                      • Erica Friedman
                                        ... on with her. ... While I don t disagree, I m not sure we have any real proof of this at all. ... I m looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 4, 2005
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                                          >From: "runaway_donkey" <alf_the_donkey@...>
                                          >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                          >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                                          on with her.
                                          >
                                          >alright, perhaps "out" was too strong a term. what i meant was, i
                                          >believe that by the time of the novels, sei has achieved a level of
                                          >acceptance about her attraction to women.

                                          While I don't disagree, I'm not sure we have any real proof of this at all.
                                          :-) Other than that gut feeling thing, again.

                                          I'm looking forward to reading the bits where Kei and Sei intereact. God
                                          knows I'd *love* to have a short about Sei's life at college to over-analyze
                                          for lesban cues. LOL

                                          she generally puts
                                          >herself in the same boat as kashiwagi (although they dislike each
                                          >other immensely).

                                          I'll agree with that. Sei recognizes a gayboy when she sees him...although
                                          it's possible that she knew about Kashiwagi through Youko, a priori.

                                          In the New Year's Day manga, amusingly, Sei does to Yumi *exactly* what she
                                          warns Kashiwagi not to do to Yuuki - so yes, they are obviously similar
                                          types and Sei knows it.

                                          and she doesn't seem particularly interested in
                                          >men. remember, she asks yumi to evaluate kashiwagi's
                                          >attractiveness, since she apparently has no eye for such things.

                                          I think that was, rather, that Sei understood Yumi's natural sympathy for
                                          Sachiko and wanted to know whether Yumi approved. :-)


                                          >i think that it does specifically say women in reference to
                                          >sachiko's father and grandfather. when kashiwagi is talking to
                                          >sachiko, he actually says that he thinks the two of them are alike
                                          >(i'm not sure what that implies...)

                                          Could be anything, but remember, Sachiko isn't the only person who will have
                                          to marry for the family. Kashiwagi also has a duty to his family and doesnt'
                                          really have *any* possibility of marrying for love. He'll be expected to
                                          take a wife and have children, and his desire for me will have to be hidden
                                          from everyone else in his family. In that sense, Kashiwagi is a little lucky
                                          to have Schiko as his fiancee' - at least he doesn't have to hide it from
                                          her.

                                          Of course, *we* want it to mean that he sees Sachiko as being attracted to
                                          same sex partners as well. LOL But they are actually the same in other ways
                                          that make alot more sense.



                                          >i agree that konno might just create a new character to be yumi's
                                          >souer. neither touko nor kanako have outright declared that they
                                          >are candidates for the position, and i've heard (haven't read that
                                          >far either...) that in one of the later novels, kanako tells sachiko
                                          >that if yumi were to ask her, she would refuse. could go either
                                          >way. i'm actually quite interested in what yoshino's gonna do.
                                          >after all, she's made a bet with eriko that she will find a souer
                                          >soon. but the only 1st years she seems to know are noriko, touko,
                                          >and kanako. some people seem to think that yoshino might make a
                                          >girl by the name of naitou shouko her souer. this is because
                                          >shouko's (real) older sister, katsumi, was a rival of eriko's, and
                                          >shouko and yoshino have some personality traits in common. however,
                                          >shouko has more of a tie in with tsutako, so who knows how that will
                                          >turn out.

                                          Fan art says....Shouko's all about Tsutako. LOL

                                          Cheers,

                                          Erica

                                          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                                          http://www.yuricon.org


                                          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
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