Re: [Yuricon] Re: Kannazuki no Miko 9
- On Dec 3, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Erica Friedman wrote:
>I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot
>> From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
>> Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
>> To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
>>>> SPOILER SPACE
>>>> (AND SOME MORE)
>>> I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
>> thinking, but
>>> it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
>> It's still confusing isn't it?
> Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)
> I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decideNo matter how hard I try I just can't get myself to a place where that
> to do
> what she did, but I still think it was stupid.
seems like a good idea. Maybe if I order up a PCP/crack cocktail . . .
>>> The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;tIt was a welcome change to see Himeko express determination and resolve
>> nearly angry
>>> and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
>> anime, but
>>> still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
>>> even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
>> I have several theories:
>> 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
> I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the
> Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
> "understand Chikane's feelings."
>> 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
>> blames herself.
> Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes,
> But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
> exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
> people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
for the first time.
>It really does explain a lot, doesn't it. ;) And I say E) all of the
>> 3) She's a blonde
> As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL
>> I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
> Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)
end of this train wreck.
>From: Chalcahuite <ximatl@...>What's really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent
>I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
>end of this train wreck.
Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and chikane die
in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending visible at
this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is it has
an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL
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- --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:
> Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko andchikane die
> in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no endingvisible at
> this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky isit has
> an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOLHave you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is
basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.
Furthermore it's a spoof on Super Robots.
The ending won't be bad in the way you expect, but there is a good
chance that it might have a rushed resolution.
- I guess I'll preclude my thoughts by saying I think
Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex
may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
severely mentally f'd up characters. We'll take the
rest from those two assumptions.
Oh, and I got my degree in psychology. Not that it
means I'm right, but just that it's a strong interest
of mine to over-analyze things constantly. ^_~ And I'm
long-winded, so my apologies. ^^;
> > > The person I understand least is, of course,I definitely buy into this. From her previous
> Himeko. She isn;t
> >nearly angry
> > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is
> only a crap-tastic
> >anime, but
> > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her
> obsession with Chikane
> > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery
> of that.
> > >
> > >
> >I have several theories:
> >1) She may already have an idea what's going on
> I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that,
> regardless of the reason,
> Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what
> it is, so she can
> "understand Chikane's feelings."
behavior, it's pretty obvious that Chikane's a person
she trusts completely. It may not be the only person,
but she IS one of those people. Combine that with her
being in love with her (love being something I think
goes hand in hand with complete trust), and that's a
dangerous blow to Himeko's sensibility.
It's a hard thing to accept that a person you trusted
completely was a poor choice for it, especially if
your self-esteem is THAT low, so I think that's partly
why Himeko's heart was still so open to Chikane after
the rape. She WANTS to believe there's a greater
reason there, because she's still clinging to that
complete trust. She doesn't want to let it go for the
fear of the change that would bring.
And as far as Himeko not really expressing thoughts
and feelings...I tend to think she's an INFJ on the
MBTI. (One of these days I want to make a MBTI
character analysis for this series, because despite
crap-tastic attributes, it's actually a serious
contender for one of my all-time favorite animes) This
would mean that while she expresses emotions
externally, she thinks internally. Meaning she's far
more likely to cry and smile and show her feelings to
the world in general than her thoughts. Granted she's
guarded with the world in general due to past
experience, but I see her thought /processes/ as being
more closely guarded then her reactions (as opposed to
Chikane, who is definitely an internal feeler--I think
Back to post-rape. She sat there, and stared off into
nothing, either dry-eyed or tears streaming down her
face. I believe the natural feelings of "why???" and
anger and betrayal and bitterness and thinking about
what happened were all behind that stare. All
internal, behind the mask of crying. Her low
self-esteem and past explains why she didn't show
anger and other "troublesome" emotions, because she
probably thinks she needs to go through life as
perfect a girl as possible, and perfect girls just
don't SHOW those emotions, right? I think that's true
in both Eastern and Western cultures...
> >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying toOr exceptionally traumatized, which I see Himeko as
> find the answer she
> >blames herself.
> Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old
> Himeko, yes, definitely.
> But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed
> her. You'd have to be
> exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three
> completely different
> people tell you that they'd die for you and still
> not see your own worth.
being. A single talk with a friend just won't change
someone that easily, sadly. It takes a lot of time to
counter a lifetime of being told directly and
indirectly that you're worthless. How many times have
we heard the phrase "watashi no sei de" or a variant
from Himeko's mouth in the series? If you think you're
a worthless waste of space, you think you're bad. And
if you think you're bad, you think everything around
you that's bad is caused by you, because the only
source of "bad" you can see is yourself.
Everyone looks for a reason why they're told they're
bad, and if you're told that often enough such that
you internalize that thinking, you're going to
reinforce that in yourself. Because to lose that
perception means to lose yourself. Objectively, it's
messed up to be sure...but it's true.
Now, how this all works into 10, from what I saw (I
have a limited understanding of Japanese, so this is
all muddled interpretation from seeing the ep. and my
crap-tastic translation "skills" ^^;)
Okay, so we see Himeko embracing into her life Chikane
when she gets back. She's SO relieved to have her
Chikane-chan back that she even wants to sleep in the
same bed as Chikane, something she never did before
the rape. This seems counter-intuitive on the surface,
but it has reasons.
A) She might be trying to prove to herself that
Chikane wouldn't do that to her again, if she's acting
like herself as Chikane was doing so before that
point. I wouldn't doubt that this is a component of
B) But deeper into Himeko's psyche, I think the
reasons are darker. It's pretty obvious through the
series that Himeko's a masochist--in life, in
thoughts, in feelings. Why would the bedroom be a
place that's a different reaction from her?
Himeko's only really gotten suffering for much of her
life, so she learned to love that suffering on some
level in order to survive. So when Chikane raped her,
she hated it on a surface level (as well she should--I
don't meant to say AT ALL that the rape itself was
good for Chikane to do. Please understand that.) But I
can see that, even if she hated it on a surface level
and even if she can't feel aroused yet from the
experience, she liked it deep inside. Because it was
the level of painful experience she'd experienced all
her life and had learned to love, and the person she
loves most (we think) gave it to her finally. Why do
you think Himeko didn't respond to Chikane when she
was being nice? Or simply didn't GET it? Because she
doesn't associate people being nice to her as being a
positive thing, or even a desirable thing to herself.
As much as my yuri-lovin' side wants to think Himeko
cried at Souma's kiss because her soul felt how WRONG
it was, I think she really cried because it wasn't
what she REALLY wants from her mate--she just isn't
capable of taking happiness into herself, and just
knows how to appreciate and deal with someone causing
her pain. She wants to be mistreated, as her current
mental state is, because it affirms love from the
Which is why I think Himeko wanted to be in Chikane's
bed so much. Even if she didn't let herself feel
physically aroused, she was MENTALLY aroused. Or maybe
even physically aroused, but I'll leave that to the
imagination. I don't have the stomach to write that
kind of fanfic, so I'd rather not think of it. >_>;;;
^^;;; I might as well just write essays on Himeko and
Chikane, at this rate. But they're my favorite anime
couple now, followed only by Tsuzuki and Hisoka from
Yami no Matsuei. ^_~ Notice a trend here?
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