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Re: [Yuricon] Re: Kannazuki no Miko 9

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  • Chalcahuite
    ... I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot twist confusion. ... No matter how hard I try I just can t get myself to a place
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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      On Dec 3, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Erica Friedman wrote:

      >
      >
      >
      >> From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
      >> Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      >> To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >>>> SPOILER SPACE
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> (AND SOME MORE)
      >>>>
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      >
      >>> I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
      >> thinking, but
      >>> it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
      >>>
      >>
      >> It's still confusing isn't it?
      >
      > Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

      I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot
      twist confusion.

      > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide
      > to do
      > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.

      No matter how hard I try I just can't get myself to a place where that
      seems like a good idea. Maybe if I order up a PCP/crack cocktail . . .
      .

      >>> The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
      >> nearly angry
      >>> and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
      >> anime, but
      >>> still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
      >> hasn't
      >>> even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
      >>>
      >> I have several theories:
      >>
      >> 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
      >
      > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the
      > reason,
      > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
      > "understand Chikane's feelings."
      >
      >> 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
      >> blames herself.
      >
      > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes,
      > definitely.
      > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
      > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
      > different
      > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
      > worth.

      It was a welcome change to see Himeko express determination and resolve
      for the first time.

      >
      >> 3) She's a blonde
      >
      > As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

      It really does explain a lot, doesn't it. ;) And I say E) all of the
      above.

      >> I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
      >
      > Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)

      I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
      end of this train wreck.

      -==-
      Serge
      http://ximatl.blogspot.com
    • Erica Friedman
      ... What s really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent endings. Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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        >From: Chalcahuite <ximatl@...>
        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

        >I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
        >end of this train wreck.

        What's really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent
        endings. <snort>

        Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and chikane die
        in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending visible at
        this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is it has
        an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL


        Cheers,

        Erica

        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
        http://www.yuricon.org


        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

        Because fanfic does not have to suck
      • mellowrg
        ... chikane die ... visible at ... it has ... Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

          > Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
          chikane die
          > in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending
          visible at
          > this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is
          it has
          > an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL
          >
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Erica
          >

          Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is
          basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.

          Furthermore it's a spoof on Super Robots.

          The ending won't be bad in the way you expect, but there is a good
          chance that it might have a rushed resolution.
        • Akra
          I guess I ll preclude my thoughts by saying I think Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
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            I guess I'll preclude my thoughts by saying I think
            Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex
            may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
            severely mentally f'd up characters. We'll take the
            rest from those two assumptions.

            Oh, and I got my degree in psychology. Not that it
            means I'm right, but just that it's a strong interest
            of mine to over-analyze things constantly. ^_~ And I'm
            long-winded, so my apologies. ^^;

            > > > The person I understand least is, of course,
            > Himeko. She isn;t
            > >nearly angry
            > > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is
            > only a crap-tastic
            > >anime, but
            > > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her
            > obsession with Chikane
            > >hasn't
            > > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery
            > of that.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >I have several theories:
            > >
            > >1) She may already have an idea what's going on
            > subconsciously.
            >
            > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that,
            > regardless of the reason,
            > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what
            > it is, so she can
            > "understand Chikane's feelings."

            I definitely buy into this. From her previous
            behavior, it's pretty obvious that Chikane's a person
            she trusts completely. It may not be the only person,
            but she IS one of those people. Combine that with her
            being in love with her (love being something I think
            goes hand in hand with complete trust), and that's a
            dangerous blow to Himeko's sensibility.

            It's a hard thing to accept that a person you trusted
            completely was a poor choice for it, especially if
            your self-esteem is THAT low, so I think that's partly
            why Himeko's heart was still so open to Chikane after
            the rape. She WANTS to believe there's a greater
            reason there, because she's still clinging to that
            complete trust. She doesn't want to let it go for the
            fear of the change that would bring.

            And as far as Himeko not really expressing thoughts
            and feelings...I tend to think she's an INFJ on the
            MBTI. (One of these days I want to make a MBTI
            character analysis for this series, because despite
            crap-tastic attributes, it's actually a serious
            contender for one of my all-time favorite animes) This
            would mean that while she expresses emotions
            externally, she thinks internally. Meaning she's far
            more likely to cry and smile and show her feelings to
            the world in general than her thoughts. Granted she's
            guarded with the world in general due to past
            experience, but I see her thought /processes/ as being
            more closely guarded then her reactions (as opposed to
            Chikane, who is definitely an internal feeler--I think
            a INFP?)

            Back to post-rape. She sat there, and stared off into
            nothing, either dry-eyed or tears streaming down her
            face. I believe the natural feelings of "why???" and
            anger and betrayal and bitterness and thinking about
            what happened were all behind that stare. All
            internal, behind the mask of crying. Her low
            self-esteem and past explains why she didn't show
            anger and other "troublesome" emotions, because she
            probably thinks she needs to go through life as
            perfect a girl as possible, and perfect girls just
            don't SHOW those emotions, right? I think that's true
            in both Eastern and Western cultures...

            > >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to
            > find the answer she
            > >blames herself.
            >
            > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old
            > Himeko, yes, definitely.
            > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed
            > her. You'd have to be
            > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three
            > completely different
            > people tell you that they'd die for you and still
            > not see your own worth.

            Or exceptionally traumatized, which I see Himeko as
            being. A single talk with a friend just won't change
            someone that easily, sadly. It takes a lot of time to
            counter a lifetime of being told directly and
            indirectly that you're worthless. How many times have
            we heard the phrase "watashi no sei de" or a variant
            from Himeko's mouth in the series? If you think you're
            a worthless waste of space, you think you're bad. And
            if you think you're bad, you think everything around
            you that's bad is caused by you, because the only
            source of "bad" you can see is yourself.

            Everyone looks for a reason why they're told they're
            bad, and if you're told that often enough such that
            you internalize that thinking, you're going to
            reinforce that in yourself. Because to lose that
            perception means to lose yourself. Objectively, it's
            messed up to be sure...but it's true.


            Now, how this all works into 10, from what I saw (I
            have a limited understanding of Japanese, so this is
            all muddled interpretation from seeing the ep. and my
            crap-tastic translation "skills" ^^;)

            SPOILER





            SPOILER





            SPOILER




            Okay, so we see Himeko embracing into her life Chikane
            when she gets back. She's SO relieved to have her
            Chikane-chan back that she even wants to sleep in the
            same bed as Chikane, something she never did before
            the rape. This seems counter-intuitive on the surface,
            but it has reasons.

            A) She might be trying to prove to herself that
            Chikane wouldn't do that to her again, if she's acting
            like herself as Chikane was doing so before that
            point. I wouldn't doubt that this is a component of
            that choice.

            B) But deeper into Himeko's psyche, I think the
            reasons are darker. It's pretty obvious through the
            series that Himeko's a masochist--in life, in
            thoughts, in feelings. Why would the bedroom be a
            place that's a different reaction from her?

            Himeko's only really gotten suffering for much of her
            life, so she learned to love that suffering on some
            level in order to survive. So when Chikane raped her,
            she hated it on a surface level (as well she should--I
            don't meant to say AT ALL that the rape itself was
            good for Chikane to do. Please understand that.) But I
            can see that, even if she hated it on a surface level
            and even if she can't feel aroused yet from the
            experience, she liked it deep inside. Because it was
            the level of painful experience she'd experienced all
            her life and had learned to love, and the person she
            loves most (we think) gave it to her finally. Why do
            you think Himeko didn't respond to Chikane when she
            was being nice? Or simply didn't GET it? Because she
            doesn't associate people being nice to her as being a
            positive thing, or even a desirable thing to herself.
            As much as my yuri-lovin' side wants to think Himeko
            cried at Souma's kiss because her soul felt how WRONG
            it was, I think she really cried because it wasn't
            what she REALLY wants from her mate--she just isn't
            capable of taking happiness into herself, and just
            knows how to appreciate and deal with someone causing
            her pain. She wants to be mistreated, as her current
            mental state is, because it affirms love from the
            person.

            Which is why I think Himeko wanted to be in Chikane's
            bed so much. Even if she didn't let herself feel
            physically aroused, she was MENTALLY aroused. Or maybe
            even physically aroused, but I'll leave that to the
            imagination. I don't have the stomach to write that
            kind of fanfic, so I'd rather not think of it. >_>;;;

            ^^;;; I might as well just write essays on Himeko and
            Chikane, at this rate. But they're my favorite anime
            couple now, followed only by Tsuzuki and Hisoka from
            Yami no Matsuei. ^_~ Notice a trend here?

            Akra

            =====
            No one is an island, but some of us are peninsulas




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          • mellowrg
            I believe you are correct. They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives as well.
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
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              I believe you are correct.

              They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives
              as well.
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