Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Yuricon] Re: Kannazuki no Miko 9

Expand Messages
  • Erica Friedman
    ... Not really. This anime isn t deep enough to be confusing. :-) I m pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do what she did, but
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      >From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

      > > >SPOILER SPACE
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >(AND SOME MORE)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >

      > > I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
      >thinking, but
      > > it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
      > >
      >
      >It's still confusing isn't it?

      Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

      I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do
      what she did, but I still think it was stupid.


      When people change sides they usually
      >keep their values, but Chikane doesn't seem to do so. It's almost as
      >if she had a brain transplant.

      Ah, where's Sean and his mind-control sex orgies when we need him. See, if
      *he'd* written this...oh, wit, it would probabaly still be rape. Forget it.

      >I have a theory that the Chikane in
      >control now is mostly the Chikane of the past.

      Interesting theory. Where's the connection? The Chikane of the past didn't
      seem so mercenary.

      This Chikane isn't above using the women around her - unless her behavior
      toward Otoha and the kyudo club girl were just practice for Himeko.
      ("Hmm...let's see, can I go wwell past appropriate and get away with it? I
      guess so...well, let's do this thing, then.")

      But that does lead to
      >some more questions. What does she know that has caused her so much
      >anger and insanity?

      I imagine it has alot to do with Himeko clearly being the gods' punching bag
      in the beginning. There's alot at stake and every sacrifice needs a
      victim...



      > > The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
      >nearly angry
      > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
      >anime, but
      > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
      >hasn't
      > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
      > >
      > >
      >
      >I have several theories:
      >
      >1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.

      I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the reason,
      Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
      "understand Chikane's feelings."

      >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
      >blames herself.

      Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes, definitely.
      But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
      exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely different
      people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own worth.


      >3) She's a blonde

      As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

      >
      >I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.

      Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)


      Cheers,

      Erica

      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
      http://www.yuricon.org


      "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
      The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

      Because fanfic does not have to suck
    • Adam Jones
      On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, mellowrg ... How about: - She s turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane s
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
        wrote:

        >
        >
        > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
        > wrote:
        >
        > > >
        > > >SPOILER SPACE
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >(AND SOME MORE)
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > I have several theories:
        >
        > 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
        > 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
        > blames herself.
        > 3) She's a blonde

        How about:

        - She's turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane's
        suffering.

        - She thinks Chikane is being controlled/possessed by Orochi and, left
        to her own devices, would never think such "perverted" things.
        --
        Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
        .oO("I hate that." )
        PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
      • mellowrg
        ... decide to do ... It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I d like to think they end up
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:


          > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her
          decide to do
          > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.
          >
          >

          It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both
          Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I'd like to think they end
          up living happily ever after.... with some counciling.

          > You'd have to be
          > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
          different
          > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
          worth.
          >
          >

          If her childhood is any indication, she was born to be dissed. LOL. I
          guess that cancels out every other goodwill she received. Her problem
          is she thinks thinks that people are only kind to her out of symphaty.
        • Chalcahuite
          ... I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot twist confusion. ... No matter how hard I try I just can t get myself to a place
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            On Dec 3, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Erica Friedman wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            >> From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
            >> Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >> To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >>>> SPOILER SPACE
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>> (AND SOME MORE)
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >
            >>> I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
            >> thinking, but
            >>> it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
            >>>
            >>
            >> It's still confusing isn't it?
            >
            > Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

            I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot
            twist confusion.

            > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide
            > to do
            > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.

            No matter how hard I try I just can't get myself to a place where that
            seems like a good idea. Maybe if I order up a PCP/crack cocktail . . .
            .

            >>> The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
            >> nearly angry
            >>> and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
            >> anime, but
            >>> still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
            >> hasn't
            >>> even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
            >>>
            >> I have several theories:
            >>
            >> 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
            >
            > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the
            > reason,
            > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
            > "understand Chikane's feelings."
            >
            >> 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
            >> blames herself.
            >
            > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes,
            > definitely.
            > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
            > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
            > different
            > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
            > worth.

            It was a welcome change to see Himeko express determination and resolve
            for the first time.

            >
            >> 3) She's a blonde
            >
            > As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

            It really does explain a lot, doesn't it. ;) And I say E) all of the
            above.

            >> I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
            >
            > Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)

            I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
            end of this train wreck.

            -==-
            Serge
            http://ximatl.blogspot.com
          • Erica Friedman
            ... What s really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent endings. Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              >From: Chalcahuite <ximatl@...>
              >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

              >I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
              >end of this train wreck.

              What's really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent
              endings. <snort>

              Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and chikane die
              in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending visible at
              this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is it has
              an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL


              Cheers,

              Erica

              Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
              http://www.yuricon.org


              "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
              The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

              Because fanfic does not have to suck
            • mellowrg
              ... chikane die ... visible at ... it has ... Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

                > Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
                chikane die
                > in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending
                visible at
                > this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is
                it has
                > an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL
                >
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Erica
                >

                Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is
                basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.

                Furthermore it's a spoof on Super Robots.

                The ending won't be bad in the way you expect, but there is a good
                chance that it might have a rushed resolution.
              • Akra
                I guess I ll preclude my thoughts by saying I think Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  I guess I'll preclude my thoughts by saying I think
                  Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex
                  may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                  severely mentally f'd up characters. We'll take the
                  rest from those two assumptions.

                  Oh, and I got my degree in psychology. Not that it
                  means I'm right, but just that it's a strong interest
                  of mine to over-analyze things constantly. ^_~ And I'm
                  long-winded, so my apologies. ^^;

                  > > > The person I understand least is, of course,
                  > Himeko. She isn;t
                  > >nearly angry
                  > > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is
                  > only a crap-tastic
                  > >anime, but
                  > > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her
                  > obsession with Chikane
                  > >hasn't
                  > > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery
                  > of that.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >I have several theories:
                  > >
                  > >1) She may already have an idea what's going on
                  > subconsciously.
                  >
                  > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that,
                  > regardless of the reason,
                  > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what
                  > it is, so she can
                  > "understand Chikane's feelings."

                  I definitely buy into this. From her previous
                  behavior, it's pretty obvious that Chikane's a person
                  she trusts completely. It may not be the only person,
                  but she IS one of those people. Combine that with her
                  being in love with her (love being something I think
                  goes hand in hand with complete trust), and that's a
                  dangerous blow to Himeko's sensibility.

                  It's a hard thing to accept that a person you trusted
                  completely was a poor choice for it, especially if
                  your self-esteem is THAT low, so I think that's partly
                  why Himeko's heart was still so open to Chikane after
                  the rape. She WANTS to believe there's a greater
                  reason there, because she's still clinging to that
                  complete trust. She doesn't want to let it go for the
                  fear of the change that would bring.

                  And as far as Himeko not really expressing thoughts
                  and feelings...I tend to think she's an INFJ on the
                  MBTI. (One of these days I want to make a MBTI
                  character analysis for this series, because despite
                  crap-tastic attributes, it's actually a serious
                  contender for one of my all-time favorite animes) This
                  would mean that while she expresses emotions
                  externally, she thinks internally. Meaning she's far
                  more likely to cry and smile and show her feelings to
                  the world in general than her thoughts. Granted she's
                  guarded with the world in general due to past
                  experience, but I see her thought /processes/ as being
                  more closely guarded then her reactions (as opposed to
                  Chikane, who is definitely an internal feeler--I think
                  a INFP?)

                  Back to post-rape. She sat there, and stared off into
                  nothing, either dry-eyed or tears streaming down her
                  face. I believe the natural feelings of "why???" and
                  anger and betrayal and bitterness and thinking about
                  what happened were all behind that stare. All
                  internal, behind the mask of crying. Her low
                  self-esteem and past explains why she didn't show
                  anger and other "troublesome" emotions, because she
                  probably thinks she needs to go through life as
                  perfect a girl as possible, and perfect girls just
                  don't SHOW those emotions, right? I think that's true
                  in both Eastern and Western cultures...

                  > >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to
                  > find the answer she
                  > >blames herself.
                  >
                  > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old
                  > Himeko, yes, definitely.
                  > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed
                  > her. You'd have to be
                  > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three
                  > completely different
                  > people tell you that they'd die for you and still
                  > not see your own worth.

                  Or exceptionally traumatized, which I see Himeko as
                  being. A single talk with a friend just won't change
                  someone that easily, sadly. It takes a lot of time to
                  counter a lifetime of being told directly and
                  indirectly that you're worthless. How many times have
                  we heard the phrase "watashi no sei de" or a variant
                  from Himeko's mouth in the series? If you think you're
                  a worthless waste of space, you think you're bad. And
                  if you think you're bad, you think everything around
                  you that's bad is caused by you, because the only
                  source of "bad" you can see is yourself.

                  Everyone looks for a reason why they're told they're
                  bad, and if you're told that often enough such that
                  you internalize that thinking, you're going to
                  reinforce that in yourself. Because to lose that
                  perception means to lose yourself. Objectively, it's
                  messed up to be sure...but it's true.


                  Now, how this all works into 10, from what I saw (I
                  have a limited understanding of Japanese, so this is
                  all muddled interpretation from seeing the ep. and my
                  crap-tastic translation "skills" ^^;)

                  SPOILER





                  SPOILER





                  SPOILER




                  Okay, so we see Himeko embracing into her life Chikane
                  when she gets back. She's SO relieved to have her
                  Chikane-chan back that she even wants to sleep in the
                  same bed as Chikane, something she never did before
                  the rape. This seems counter-intuitive on the surface,
                  but it has reasons.

                  A) She might be trying to prove to herself that
                  Chikane wouldn't do that to her again, if she's acting
                  like herself as Chikane was doing so before that
                  point. I wouldn't doubt that this is a component of
                  that choice.

                  B) But deeper into Himeko's psyche, I think the
                  reasons are darker. It's pretty obvious through the
                  series that Himeko's a masochist--in life, in
                  thoughts, in feelings. Why would the bedroom be a
                  place that's a different reaction from her?

                  Himeko's only really gotten suffering for much of her
                  life, so she learned to love that suffering on some
                  level in order to survive. So when Chikane raped her,
                  she hated it on a surface level (as well she should--I
                  don't meant to say AT ALL that the rape itself was
                  good for Chikane to do. Please understand that.) But I
                  can see that, even if she hated it on a surface level
                  and even if she can't feel aroused yet from the
                  experience, she liked it deep inside. Because it was
                  the level of painful experience she'd experienced all
                  her life and had learned to love, and the person she
                  loves most (we think) gave it to her finally. Why do
                  you think Himeko didn't respond to Chikane when she
                  was being nice? Or simply didn't GET it? Because she
                  doesn't associate people being nice to her as being a
                  positive thing, or even a desirable thing to herself.
                  As much as my yuri-lovin' side wants to think Himeko
                  cried at Souma's kiss because her soul felt how WRONG
                  it was, I think she really cried because it wasn't
                  what she REALLY wants from her mate--she just isn't
                  capable of taking happiness into herself, and just
                  knows how to appreciate and deal with someone causing
                  her pain. She wants to be mistreated, as her current
                  mental state is, because it affirms love from the
                  person.

                  Which is why I think Himeko wanted to be in Chikane's
                  bed so much. Even if she didn't let herself feel
                  physically aroused, she was MENTALLY aroused. Or maybe
                  even physically aroused, but I'll leave that to the
                  imagination. I don't have the stomach to write that
                  kind of fanfic, so I'd rather not think of it. >_>;;;

                  ^^;;; I might as well just write essays on Himeko and
                  Chikane, at this rate. But they're my favorite anime
                  couple now, followed only by Tsuzuki and Hisoka from
                  Yami no Matsuei. ^_~ Notice a trend here?

                  Akra

                  =====
                  No one is an island, but some of us are peninsulas




                  __________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                  http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                • mellowrg
                  I believe you are correct. They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives as well.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I believe you are correct.

                    They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives
                    as well.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.