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Re: Kannazuki no Miko 9

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  • mellowrg
    ... thinking, but ... It s still confusing isn t it? When people change sides they usually keep their values, but Chikane doesn t seem to do so. It s almost as
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

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      > >Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
      > >say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
      > >Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...
      >
      > I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
      thinking, but
      > it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
      >

      It's still confusing isn't it? When people change sides they usually
      keep their values, but Chikane doesn't seem to do so. It's almost as
      if she had a brain transplant. I have a theory that the Chikane in
      control now is mostly the Chikane of the past. But that does lead to
      some more questions. What does she know that has caused her so much
      anger and insanity?


      > The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
      nearly angry
      > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
      anime, but
      > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
      hasn't
      > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
      >
      >

      I have several theories:

      1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
      2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
      blames herself.
      3) She's a blonde

      I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
    • Erica Friedman
      ... Not really. This anime isn t deep enough to be confusing. :-) I m pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do what she did, but
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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        >From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

        > > >SPOILER SPACE
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        > > I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
        >thinking, but
        > > it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
        > >
        >
        >It's still confusing isn't it?

        Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

        I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do
        what she did, but I still think it was stupid.


        When people change sides they usually
        >keep their values, but Chikane doesn't seem to do so. It's almost as
        >if she had a brain transplant.

        Ah, where's Sean and his mind-control sex orgies when we need him. See, if
        *he'd* written this...oh, wit, it would probabaly still be rape. Forget it.

        >I have a theory that the Chikane in
        >control now is mostly the Chikane of the past.

        Interesting theory. Where's the connection? The Chikane of the past didn't
        seem so mercenary.

        This Chikane isn't above using the women around her - unless her behavior
        toward Otoha and the kyudo club girl were just practice for Himeko.
        ("Hmm...let's see, can I go wwell past appropriate and get away with it? I
        guess so...well, let's do this thing, then.")

        But that does lead to
        >some more questions. What does she know that has caused her so much
        >anger and insanity?

        I imagine it has alot to do with Himeko clearly being the gods' punching bag
        in the beginning. There's alot at stake and every sacrifice needs a
        victim...



        > > The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
        >nearly angry
        > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
        >anime, but
        > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
        >hasn't
        > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >I have several theories:
        >
        >1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.

        I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the reason,
        Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
        "understand Chikane's feelings."

        >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
        >blames herself.

        Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes, definitely.
        But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
        exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely different
        people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own worth.


        >3) She's a blonde

        As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

        >
        >I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.

        Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)


        Cheers,

        Erica

        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
        http://www.yuricon.org


        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

        Because fanfic does not have to suck
      • Adam Jones
        On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, mellowrg ... How about: - She s turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane s
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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          On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
          wrote:

          >
          >
          > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > > >
          > > >SPOILER SPACE
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
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          > > >(AND SOME MORE)
          > > >
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          > > >
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          > I have several theories:
          >
          > 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
          > 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
          > blames herself.
          > 3) She's a blonde

          How about:

          - She's turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane's
          suffering.

          - She thinks Chikane is being controlled/possessed by Orochi and, left
          to her own devices, would never think such "perverted" things.
          --
          Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
          .oO("I hate that." )
          PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
        • mellowrg
          ... decide to do ... It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I d like to think they end up
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:


            > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her
            decide to do
            > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.
            >
            >

            It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both
            Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I'd like to think they end
            up living happily ever after.... with some counciling.

            > You'd have to be
            > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
            different
            > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
            worth.
            >
            >

            If her childhood is any indication, she was born to be dissed. LOL. I
            guess that cancels out every other goodwill she received. Her problem
            is she thinks thinks that people are only kind to her out of symphaty.
          • Chalcahuite
            ... I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot twist confusion. ... No matter how hard I try I just can t get myself to a place
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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              On Dec 3, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Erica Friedman wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              >> From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
              >> Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >> To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >>>> SPOILER SPACE
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>>
              >>>> (AND SOME MORE)
              >>>>
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              >>>>
              >
              >>> I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
              >> thinking, but
              >>> it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
              >>>
              >>
              >> It's still confusing isn't it?
              >
              > Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

              I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot
              twist confusion.

              > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide
              > to do
              > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.

              No matter how hard I try I just can't get myself to a place where that
              seems like a good idea. Maybe if I order up a PCP/crack cocktail . . .
              .

              >>> The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
              >> nearly angry
              >>> and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
              >> anime, but
              >>> still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
              >> hasn't
              >>> even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
              >>>
              >> I have several theories:
              >>
              >> 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
              >
              > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the
              > reason,
              > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
              > "understand Chikane's feelings."
              >
              >> 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
              >> blames herself.
              >
              > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes,
              > definitely.
              > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
              > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
              > different
              > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
              > worth.

              It was a welcome change to see Himeko express determination and resolve
              for the first time.

              >
              >> 3) She's a blonde
              >
              > As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

              It really does explain a lot, doesn't it. ;) And I say E) all of the
              above.

              >> I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
              >
              > Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)

              I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
              end of this train wreck.

              -==-
              Serge
              http://ximatl.blogspot.com
            • Erica Friedman
              ... What s really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent endings. Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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                >From: Chalcahuite <ximatl@...>
                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                >I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
                >end of this train wreck.

                What's really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent
                endings. <snort>

                Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and chikane die
                in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending visible at
                this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is it has
                an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL


                Cheers,

                Erica

                Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                http://www.yuricon.org


                "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                Because fanfic does not have to suck
              • mellowrg
                ... chikane die ... visible at ... it has ... Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

                  > Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
                  chikane die
                  > in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending
                  visible at
                  > this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is
                  it has
                  > an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL
                  >
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Erica
                  >

                  Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is
                  basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.

                  Furthermore it's a spoof on Super Robots.

                  The ending won't be bad in the way you expect, but there is a good
                  chance that it might have a rushed resolution.
                • Akra
                  I guess I ll preclude my thoughts by saying I think Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
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                    I guess I'll preclude my thoughts by saying I think
                    Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex
                    may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                    severely mentally f'd up characters. We'll take the
                    rest from those two assumptions.

                    Oh, and I got my degree in psychology. Not that it
                    means I'm right, but just that it's a strong interest
                    of mine to over-analyze things constantly. ^_~ And I'm
                    long-winded, so my apologies. ^^;

                    > > > The person I understand least is, of course,
                    > Himeko. She isn;t
                    > >nearly angry
                    > > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is
                    > only a crap-tastic
                    > >anime, but
                    > > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her
                    > obsession with Chikane
                    > >hasn't
                    > > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery
                    > of that.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >I have several theories:
                    > >
                    > >1) She may already have an idea what's going on
                    > subconsciously.
                    >
                    > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that,
                    > regardless of the reason,
                    > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what
                    > it is, so she can
                    > "understand Chikane's feelings."

                    I definitely buy into this. From her previous
                    behavior, it's pretty obvious that Chikane's a person
                    she trusts completely. It may not be the only person,
                    but she IS one of those people. Combine that with her
                    being in love with her (love being something I think
                    goes hand in hand with complete trust), and that's a
                    dangerous blow to Himeko's sensibility.

                    It's a hard thing to accept that a person you trusted
                    completely was a poor choice for it, especially if
                    your self-esteem is THAT low, so I think that's partly
                    why Himeko's heart was still so open to Chikane after
                    the rape. She WANTS to believe there's a greater
                    reason there, because she's still clinging to that
                    complete trust. She doesn't want to let it go for the
                    fear of the change that would bring.

                    And as far as Himeko not really expressing thoughts
                    and feelings...I tend to think she's an INFJ on the
                    MBTI. (One of these days I want to make a MBTI
                    character analysis for this series, because despite
                    crap-tastic attributes, it's actually a serious
                    contender for one of my all-time favorite animes) This
                    would mean that while she expresses emotions
                    externally, she thinks internally. Meaning she's far
                    more likely to cry and smile and show her feelings to
                    the world in general than her thoughts. Granted she's
                    guarded with the world in general due to past
                    experience, but I see her thought /processes/ as being
                    more closely guarded then her reactions (as opposed to
                    Chikane, who is definitely an internal feeler--I think
                    a INFP?)

                    Back to post-rape. She sat there, and stared off into
                    nothing, either dry-eyed or tears streaming down her
                    face. I believe the natural feelings of "why???" and
                    anger and betrayal and bitterness and thinking about
                    what happened were all behind that stare. All
                    internal, behind the mask of crying. Her low
                    self-esteem and past explains why she didn't show
                    anger and other "troublesome" emotions, because she
                    probably thinks she needs to go through life as
                    perfect a girl as possible, and perfect girls just
                    don't SHOW those emotions, right? I think that's true
                    in both Eastern and Western cultures...

                    > >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to
                    > find the answer she
                    > >blames herself.
                    >
                    > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old
                    > Himeko, yes, definitely.
                    > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed
                    > her. You'd have to be
                    > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three
                    > completely different
                    > people tell you that they'd die for you and still
                    > not see your own worth.

                    Or exceptionally traumatized, which I see Himeko as
                    being. A single talk with a friend just won't change
                    someone that easily, sadly. It takes a lot of time to
                    counter a lifetime of being told directly and
                    indirectly that you're worthless. How many times have
                    we heard the phrase "watashi no sei de" or a variant
                    from Himeko's mouth in the series? If you think you're
                    a worthless waste of space, you think you're bad. And
                    if you think you're bad, you think everything around
                    you that's bad is caused by you, because the only
                    source of "bad" you can see is yourself.

                    Everyone looks for a reason why they're told they're
                    bad, and if you're told that often enough such that
                    you internalize that thinking, you're going to
                    reinforce that in yourself. Because to lose that
                    perception means to lose yourself. Objectively, it's
                    messed up to be sure...but it's true.


                    Now, how this all works into 10, from what I saw (I
                    have a limited understanding of Japanese, so this is
                    all muddled interpretation from seeing the ep. and my
                    crap-tastic translation "skills" ^^;)

                    SPOILER





                    SPOILER





                    SPOILER




                    Okay, so we see Himeko embracing into her life Chikane
                    when she gets back. She's SO relieved to have her
                    Chikane-chan back that she even wants to sleep in the
                    same bed as Chikane, something she never did before
                    the rape. This seems counter-intuitive on the surface,
                    but it has reasons.

                    A) She might be trying to prove to herself that
                    Chikane wouldn't do that to her again, if she's acting
                    like herself as Chikane was doing so before that
                    point. I wouldn't doubt that this is a component of
                    that choice.

                    B) But deeper into Himeko's psyche, I think the
                    reasons are darker. It's pretty obvious through the
                    series that Himeko's a masochist--in life, in
                    thoughts, in feelings. Why would the bedroom be a
                    place that's a different reaction from her?

                    Himeko's only really gotten suffering for much of her
                    life, so she learned to love that suffering on some
                    level in order to survive. So when Chikane raped her,
                    she hated it on a surface level (as well she should--I
                    don't meant to say AT ALL that the rape itself was
                    good for Chikane to do. Please understand that.) But I
                    can see that, even if she hated it on a surface level
                    and even if she can't feel aroused yet from the
                    experience, she liked it deep inside. Because it was
                    the level of painful experience she'd experienced all
                    her life and had learned to love, and the person she
                    loves most (we think) gave it to her finally. Why do
                    you think Himeko didn't respond to Chikane when she
                    was being nice? Or simply didn't GET it? Because she
                    doesn't associate people being nice to her as being a
                    positive thing, or even a desirable thing to herself.
                    As much as my yuri-lovin' side wants to think Himeko
                    cried at Souma's kiss because her soul felt how WRONG
                    it was, I think she really cried because it wasn't
                    what she REALLY wants from her mate--she just isn't
                    capable of taking happiness into herself, and just
                    knows how to appreciate and deal with someone causing
                    her pain. She wants to be mistreated, as her current
                    mental state is, because it affirms love from the
                    person.

                    Which is why I think Himeko wanted to be in Chikane's
                    bed so much. Even if she didn't let herself feel
                    physically aroused, she was MENTALLY aroused. Or maybe
                    even physically aroused, but I'll leave that to the
                    imagination. I don't have the stomach to write that
                    kind of fanfic, so I'd rather not think of it. >_>;;;

                    ^^;;; I might as well just write essays on Himeko and
                    Chikane, at this rate. But they're my favorite anime
                    couple now, followed only by Tsuzuki and Hisoka from
                    Yami no Matsuei. ^_~ Notice a trend here?

                    Akra

                    =====
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                  • mellowrg
                    I believe you are correct. They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives as well.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
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                      I believe you are correct.

                      They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives
                      as well.
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