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Re: [Yuricon] Kannazuki no Miko 9

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  • Chalcahuite
    ... I agree, mixed feelings here too. I d be more inclined to be a vocal Chikane booster were it not for the whole raping bit. Kinda puts a damper on what is a
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 1, 2004
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      On Dec 1, 2004, at 2:17 PM, Adam Jones wrote:

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      > Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
      > say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
      > Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...

      I agree, mixed feelings here too. I'd be more inclined to be a vocal
      Chikane booster were it not for the whole raping bit. Kinda puts a
      damper on what is a thorough smackdown of Orochi. I'll say it again,
      Chikane deserves better.

      > That said, I find it hard to believe that Tsubasa is actually dead. I
      > mean, he seemed to give up just when he was winning.

      Nope, he's not dead. They've nicknamed him "Roach boy" on the AnimeSuki
      forums. He'll probably pop back up just in time for the climactic
      ending, to die a real death.

      > Also, the Vortex of Orochi has a stupid Evil Manical Laugh. At least
      > 270 milliMondays, that one.

      What is with villains these days? The laugh is supposed to reinforce
      your intimidating, daunting presence, not reduce it to zero.

      > Things I learned whilst watching this show:
      >
      > When attacked by a physically stronger opponent wielding a decent-sized
      > bastard sword, a small tanto blade is more than sufficient to defend
      > oneself.
      >
      > Mooning archers is a bad idea.

      See, even bad anime is educational. ;)

      -==-
      Serge
      http://ximatl.blogspot.com
    • mellowrg
      ... Notice that cut over his Orochi mark on his chest? If he continued he would been a stone statue. But yeah, he ll be back.
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 1, 2004
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Adam Jones <adam@y...> wrote:

        >
        > That said, I find it hard to believe that Tsubasa is actually dead. I
        > mean, he seemed to give up just when he was winning.
        >

        Notice that cut over his Orochi mark on his chest? If he continued he
        would been a stone statue. But yeah, he'll be back.
      • Erica Friedman
        ... I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was thinking, but it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape. I definitely
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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          >From: Adam Jones <adam@...>
          >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          >To: yuricon@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [Yuricon] Kannazuki no Miko 9
          >Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:17:46 +0000
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          >Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
          >say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
          >Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...

          I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was thinking, but
          it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.

          I definitely appreciated her take on destroying the Orochi, though. Direct.
          Neat. Simple. Effective.

          The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t nearly angry
          and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic anime, but
          still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane hasn't
          even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.


          >
          >That said, I find it hard to believe that Tsubasa is actually dead. I
          >mean, he seemed to give up just when he was winning.

          It's clear that he isn't, because we need to create *more* angst for Souma.
          I mean really... he needs to have divided loyalties troo.

          >
          >Also, the Vortex of Orochi has a stupid Evil Manical Laugh. At least
          >270 milliMondays, that one.

          I agree with Serge - evil laughs are supposed to communicate evil, not
          pathos.
          I miss the days when evil laughs *meant* something.

          >
          >
          >Things I learned whilst watching this show:
          >
          >When attacked by a physically stronger opponent wielding a decent-sized
          >bastard sword, a small tanto blade is more than sufficient to defend
          >oneself.

          All you have to do is believe in the heart of the cards! Oh, wait, wrong
          anime. ;-)


          Cheers,

          Erica

          Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
          http://www.yuricon.org


          "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
          The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

          Because fanfic does not have to suck
        • mellowrg
          ... thinking, but ... It s still confusing isn t it? When people change sides they usually keep their values, but Chikane doesn t seem to do so. It s almost as
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

            > >
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            > >Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
            > >say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
            > >Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...
            >
            > I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
            thinking, but
            > it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
            >

            It's still confusing isn't it? When people change sides they usually
            keep their values, but Chikane doesn't seem to do so. It's almost as
            if she had a brain transplant. I have a theory that the Chikane in
            control now is mostly the Chikane of the past. But that does lead to
            some more questions. What does she know that has caused her so much
            anger and insanity?


            > The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
            nearly angry
            > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
            anime, but
            > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
            hasn't
            > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
            >
            >

            I have several theories:

            1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
            2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
            blames herself.
            3) She's a blonde

            I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
          • Erica Friedman
            ... Not really. This anime isn t deep enough to be confusing. :-) I m pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do what she did, but
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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              >From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
              >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
              >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

              > > >SPOILER SPACE
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              > > I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
              >thinking, but
              > > it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
              > >
              >
              >It's still confusing isn't it?

              Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

              I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do
              what she did, but I still think it was stupid.


              When people change sides they usually
              >keep their values, but Chikane doesn't seem to do so. It's almost as
              >if she had a brain transplant.

              Ah, where's Sean and his mind-control sex orgies when we need him. See, if
              *he'd* written this...oh, wit, it would probabaly still be rape. Forget it.

              >I have a theory that the Chikane in
              >control now is mostly the Chikane of the past.

              Interesting theory. Where's the connection? The Chikane of the past didn't
              seem so mercenary.

              This Chikane isn't above using the women around her - unless her behavior
              toward Otoha and the kyudo club girl were just practice for Himeko.
              ("Hmm...let's see, can I go wwell past appropriate and get away with it? I
              guess so...well, let's do this thing, then.")

              But that does lead to
              >some more questions. What does she know that has caused her so much
              >anger and insanity?

              I imagine it has alot to do with Himeko clearly being the gods' punching bag
              in the beginning. There's alot at stake and every sacrifice needs a
              victim...



              > > The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
              >nearly angry
              > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
              >anime, but
              > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
              >hasn't
              > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >I have several theories:
              >
              >1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.

              I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the reason,
              Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
              "understand Chikane's feelings."

              >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
              >blames herself.

              Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes, definitely.
              But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
              exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely different
              people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own worth.


              >3) She's a blonde

              As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

              >
              >I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.

              Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)


              Cheers,

              Erica

              Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
              http://www.yuricon.org


              "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
              The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

              Because fanfic does not have to suck
            • Adam Jones
              On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, mellowrg ... How about: - She s turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane s
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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                On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
                wrote:

                >
                >
                > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > >
                > > >SPOILER SPACE
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                > > >(AND SOME MORE)
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                > I have several theories:
                >
                > 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
                > 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
                > blames herself.
                > 3) She's a blonde

                How about:

                - She's turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane's
                suffering.

                - She thinks Chikane is being controlled/possessed by Orochi and, left
                to her own devices, would never think such "perverted" things.
                --
                Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
                .oO("I hate that." )
                PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
              • mellowrg
                ... decide to do ... It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I d like to think they end up
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:


                  > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her
                  decide to do
                  > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.
                  >
                  >

                  It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both
                  Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I'd like to think they end
                  up living happily ever after.... with some counciling.

                  > You'd have to be
                  > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
                  different
                  > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
                  worth.
                  >
                  >

                  If her childhood is any indication, she was born to be dissed. LOL. I
                  guess that cancels out every other goodwill she received. Her problem
                  is she thinks thinks that people are only kind to her out of symphaty.
                • Chalcahuite
                  ... I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot twist confusion. ... No matter how hard I try I just can t get myself to a place
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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                    On Dec 3, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Erica Friedman wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >> From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
                    >> Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >> To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >>>> SPOILER SPACE
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> (AND SOME MORE)
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
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                    >>>>
                    >>>>
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                    >>>>
                    >>>>
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                    >>>>
                    >
                    >>> I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
                    >> thinking, but
                    >>> it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >> It's still confusing isn't it?
                    >
                    > Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

                    I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot
                    twist confusion.

                    > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide
                    > to do
                    > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.

                    No matter how hard I try I just can't get myself to a place where that
                    seems like a good idea. Maybe if I order up a PCP/crack cocktail . . .
                    .

                    >>> The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
                    >> nearly angry
                    >>> and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
                    >> anime, but
                    >>> still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
                    >> hasn't
                    >>> even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
                    >>>
                    >> I have several theories:
                    >>
                    >> 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
                    >
                    > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the
                    > reason,
                    > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
                    > "understand Chikane's feelings."
                    >
                    >> 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
                    >> blames herself.
                    >
                    > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes,
                    > definitely.
                    > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
                    > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
                    > different
                    > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
                    > worth.

                    It was a welcome change to see Himeko express determination and resolve
                    for the first time.

                    >
                    >> 3) She's a blonde
                    >
                    > As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

                    It really does explain a lot, doesn't it. ;) And I say E) all of the
                    above.

                    >> I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
                    >
                    > Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)

                    I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
                    end of this train wreck.

                    -==-
                    Serge
                    http://ximatl.blogspot.com
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... What s really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent endings. Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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                      >From: Chalcahuite <ximatl@...>
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                      >I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
                      >end of this train wreck.

                      What's really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent
                      endings. <snort>

                      Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and chikane die
                      in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending visible at
                      this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is it has
                      an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL


                      Cheers,

                      Erica

                      Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                      http://www.yuricon.org


                      "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                      The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                      Because fanfic does not have to suck
                    • mellowrg
                      ... chikane die ... visible at ... it has ... Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
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                        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

                        > Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
                        chikane die
                        > in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending
                        visible at
                        > this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is
                        it has
                        > an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL
                        >
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > Erica
                        >

                        Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is
                        basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.

                        Furthermore it's a spoof on Super Robots.

                        The ending won't be bad in the way you expect, but there is a good
                        chance that it might have a rushed resolution.
                      • Akra
                        I guess I ll preclude my thoughts by saying I think Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
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                          I guess I'll preclude my thoughts by saying I think
                          Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex
                          may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                          severely mentally f'd up characters. We'll take the
                          rest from those two assumptions.

                          Oh, and I got my degree in psychology. Not that it
                          means I'm right, but just that it's a strong interest
                          of mine to over-analyze things constantly. ^_~ And I'm
                          long-winded, so my apologies. ^^;

                          > > > The person I understand least is, of course,
                          > Himeko. She isn;t
                          > >nearly angry
                          > > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is
                          > only a crap-tastic
                          > >anime, but
                          > > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her
                          > obsession with Chikane
                          > >hasn't
                          > > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery
                          > of that.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >I have several theories:
                          > >
                          > >1) She may already have an idea what's going on
                          > subconsciously.
                          >
                          > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that,
                          > regardless of the reason,
                          > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what
                          > it is, so she can
                          > "understand Chikane's feelings."

                          I definitely buy into this. From her previous
                          behavior, it's pretty obvious that Chikane's a person
                          she trusts completely. It may not be the only person,
                          but she IS one of those people. Combine that with her
                          being in love with her (love being something I think
                          goes hand in hand with complete trust), and that's a
                          dangerous blow to Himeko's sensibility.

                          It's a hard thing to accept that a person you trusted
                          completely was a poor choice for it, especially if
                          your self-esteem is THAT low, so I think that's partly
                          why Himeko's heart was still so open to Chikane after
                          the rape. She WANTS to believe there's a greater
                          reason there, because she's still clinging to that
                          complete trust. She doesn't want to let it go for the
                          fear of the change that would bring.

                          And as far as Himeko not really expressing thoughts
                          and feelings...I tend to think she's an INFJ on the
                          MBTI. (One of these days I want to make a MBTI
                          character analysis for this series, because despite
                          crap-tastic attributes, it's actually a serious
                          contender for one of my all-time favorite animes) This
                          would mean that while she expresses emotions
                          externally, she thinks internally. Meaning she's far
                          more likely to cry and smile and show her feelings to
                          the world in general than her thoughts. Granted she's
                          guarded with the world in general due to past
                          experience, but I see her thought /processes/ as being
                          more closely guarded then her reactions (as opposed to
                          Chikane, who is definitely an internal feeler--I think
                          a INFP?)

                          Back to post-rape. She sat there, and stared off into
                          nothing, either dry-eyed or tears streaming down her
                          face. I believe the natural feelings of "why???" and
                          anger and betrayal and bitterness and thinking about
                          what happened were all behind that stare. All
                          internal, behind the mask of crying. Her low
                          self-esteem and past explains why she didn't show
                          anger and other "troublesome" emotions, because she
                          probably thinks she needs to go through life as
                          perfect a girl as possible, and perfect girls just
                          don't SHOW those emotions, right? I think that's true
                          in both Eastern and Western cultures...

                          > >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to
                          > find the answer she
                          > >blames herself.
                          >
                          > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old
                          > Himeko, yes, definitely.
                          > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed
                          > her. You'd have to be
                          > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three
                          > completely different
                          > people tell you that they'd die for you and still
                          > not see your own worth.

                          Or exceptionally traumatized, which I see Himeko as
                          being. A single talk with a friend just won't change
                          someone that easily, sadly. It takes a lot of time to
                          counter a lifetime of being told directly and
                          indirectly that you're worthless. How many times have
                          we heard the phrase "watashi no sei de" or a variant
                          from Himeko's mouth in the series? If you think you're
                          a worthless waste of space, you think you're bad. And
                          if you think you're bad, you think everything around
                          you that's bad is caused by you, because the only
                          source of "bad" you can see is yourself.

                          Everyone looks for a reason why they're told they're
                          bad, and if you're told that often enough such that
                          you internalize that thinking, you're going to
                          reinforce that in yourself. Because to lose that
                          perception means to lose yourself. Objectively, it's
                          messed up to be sure...but it's true.


                          Now, how this all works into 10, from what I saw (I
                          have a limited understanding of Japanese, so this is
                          all muddled interpretation from seeing the ep. and my
                          crap-tastic translation "skills" ^^;)

                          SPOILER





                          SPOILER





                          SPOILER




                          Okay, so we see Himeko embracing into her life Chikane
                          when she gets back. She's SO relieved to have her
                          Chikane-chan back that she even wants to sleep in the
                          same bed as Chikane, something she never did before
                          the rape. This seems counter-intuitive on the surface,
                          but it has reasons.

                          A) She might be trying to prove to herself that
                          Chikane wouldn't do that to her again, if she's acting
                          like herself as Chikane was doing so before that
                          point. I wouldn't doubt that this is a component of
                          that choice.

                          B) But deeper into Himeko's psyche, I think the
                          reasons are darker. It's pretty obvious through the
                          series that Himeko's a masochist--in life, in
                          thoughts, in feelings. Why would the bedroom be a
                          place that's a different reaction from her?

                          Himeko's only really gotten suffering for much of her
                          life, so she learned to love that suffering on some
                          level in order to survive. So when Chikane raped her,
                          she hated it on a surface level (as well she should--I
                          don't meant to say AT ALL that the rape itself was
                          good for Chikane to do. Please understand that.) But I
                          can see that, even if she hated it on a surface level
                          and even if she can't feel aroused yet from the
                          experience, she liked it deep inside. Because it was
                          the level of painful experience she'd experienced all
                          her life and had learned to love, and the person she
                          loves most (we think) gave it to her finally. Why do
                          you think Himeko didn't respond to Chikane when she
                          was being nice? Or simply didn't GET it? Because she
                          doesn't associate people being nice to her as being a
                          positive thing, or even a desirable thing to herself.
                          As much as my yuri-lovin' side wants to think Himeko
                          cried at Souma's kiss because her soul felt how WRONG
                          it was, I think she really cried because it wasn't
                          what she REALLY wants from her mate--she just isn't
                          capable of taking happiness into herself, and just
                          knows how to appreciate and deal with someone causing
                          her pain. She wants to be mistreated, as her current
                          mental state is, because it affirms love from the
                          person.

                          Which is why I think Himeko wanted to be in Chikane's
                          bed so much. Even if she didn't let herself feel
                          physically aroused, she was MENTALLY aroused. Or maybe
                          even physically aroused, but I'll leave that to the
                          imagination. I don't have the stomach to write that
                          kind of fanfic, so I'd rather not think of it. >_>;;;

                          ^^;;; I might as well just write essays on Himeko and
                          Chikane, at this rate. But they're my favorite anime
                          couple now, followed only by Tsuzuki and Hisoka from
                          Yami no Matsuei. ^_~ Notice a trend here?

                          Akra

                          =====
                          No one is an island, but some of us are peninsulas




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                        • mellowrg
                          I believe you are correct. They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives as well.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
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                            I believe you are correct.

                            They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives
                            as well.
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