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Kannazuki no Miko 9

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  • Adam Jones
    SPOILER SPACE (AND SOME MORE) Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that s one heck of a
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 1, 2004
      SPOILER SPACE













      (AND SOME MORE)













      Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
      say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
      Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...

      That said, I find it hard to believe that Tsubasa is actually dead. I
      mean, he seemed to give up just when he was winning.

      Also, the Vortex of Orochi has a stupid Evil Manical Laugh. At least
      270 milliMondays, that one.


      Things I learned whilst watching this show:

      When attacked by a physically stronger opponent wielding a decent-sized
      bastard sword, a small tanto blade is more than sufficient to defend
      oneself.

      Mooning archers is a bad idea.
      --
      Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
      .oO("confussing us is not acceptable, we are INDIVIDUALS i tell you." )
      PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
    • Chalcahuite
      ... I agree, mixed feelings here too. I d be more inclined to be a vocal Chikane booster were it not for the whole raping bit. Kinda puts a damper on what is a
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 1, 2004
        On Dec 1, 2004, at 2:17 PM, Adam Jones wrote:

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        > Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
        > say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
        > Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...

        I agree, mixed feelings here too. I'd be more inclined to be a vocal
        Chikane booster were it not for the whole raping bit. Kinda puts a
        damper on what is a thorough smackdown of Orochi. I'll say it again,
        Chikane deserves better.

        > That said, I find it hard to believe that Tsubasa is actually dead. I
        > mean, he seemed to give up just when he was winning.

        Nope, he's not dead. They've nicknamed him "Roach boy" on the AnimeSuki
        forums. He'll probably pop back up just in time for the climactic
        ending, to die a real death.

        > Also, the Vortex of Orochi has a stupid Evil Manical Laugh. At least
        > 270 milliMondays, that one.

        What is with villains these days? The laugh is supposed to reinforce
        your intimidating, daunting presence, not reduce it to zero.

        > Things I learned whilst watching this show:
        >
        > When attacked by a physically stronger opponent wielding a decent-sized
        > bastard sword, a small tanto blade is more than sufficient to defend
        > oneself.
        >
        > Mooning archers is a bad idea.

        See, even bad anime is educational. ;)

        -==-
        Serge
        http://ximatl.blogspot.com
      • mellowrg
        ... Notice that cut over his Orochi mark on his chest? If he continued he would been a stone statue. But yeah, he ll be back.
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 1, 2004
          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, Adam Jones <adam@y...> wrote:

          >
          > That said, I find it hard to believe that Tsubasa is actually dead. I
          > mean, he seemed to give up just when he was winning.
          >

          Notice that cut over his Orochi mark on his chest? If he continued he
          would been a stone statue. But yeah, he'll be back.
        • Erica Friedman
          ... I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was thinking, but it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape. I definitely
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
            >From: Adam Jones <adam@...>
            >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >To: yuricon@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [Yuricon] Kannazuki no Miko 9
            >Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:17:46 +0000
            >
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            >Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
            >say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
            >Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...

            I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was thinking, but
            it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.

            I definitely appreciated her take on destroying the Orochi, though. Direct.
            Neat. Simple. Effective.

            The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t nearly angry
            and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic anime, but
            still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane hasn't
            even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.


            >
            >That said, I find it hard to believe that Tsubasa is actually dead. I
            >mean, he seemed to give up just when he was winning.

            It's clear that he isn't, because we need to create *more* angst for Souma.
            I mean really... he needs to have divided loyalties troo.

            >
            >Also, the Vortex of Orochi has a stupid Evil Manical Laugh. At least
            >270 milliMondays, that one.

            I agree with Serge - evil laughs are supposed to communicate evil, not
            pathos.
            I miss the days when evil laughs *meant* something.

            >
            >
            >Things I learned whilst watching this show:
            >
            >When attacked by a physically stronger opponent wielding a decent-sized
            >bastard sword, a small tanto blade is more than sufficient to defend
            >oneself.

            All you have to do is believe in the heart of the cards! Oh, wait, wrong
            anime. ;-)


            Cheers,

            Erica

            Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
            http://www.yuricon.org


            "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
            The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

            Because fanfic does not have to suck
          • mellowrg
            ... thinking, but ... It s still confusing isn t it? When people change sides they usually keep their values, but Chikane doesn t seem to do so. It s almost as
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

              > >
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              > >Whilst I find it extremely hard to cheer for a crazed rapist, I have to
              > >say: Go Chikane! Dang, but that's one heck of a reduction in the
              > >Irritating Bad Guy population for a single episode...
              >
              > I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
              thinking, but
              > it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
              >

              It's still confusing isn't it? When people change sides they usually
              keep their values, but Chikane doesn't seem to do so. It's almost as
              if she had a brain transplant. I have a theory that the Chikane in
              control now is mostly the Chikane of the past. But that does lead to
              some more questions. What does she know that has caused her so much
              anger and insanity?


              > The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
              nearly angry
              > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
              anime, but
              > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
              hasn't
              > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
              >
              >

              I have several theories:

              1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
              2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
              blames herself.
              3) She's a blonde

              I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
            • Erica Friedman
              ... Not really. This anime isn t deep enough to be confusing. :-) I m pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do what she did, but
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
                >From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                > > >SPOILER SPACE
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                > > I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
                >thinking, but
                > > it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
                > >
                >
                >It's still confusing isn't it?

                Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

                I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide to do
                what she did, but I still think it was stupid.


                When people change sides they usually
                >keep their values, but Chikane doesn't seem to do so. It's almost as
                >if she had a brain transplant.

                Ah, where's Sean and his mind-control sex orgies when we need him. See, if
                *he'd* written this...oh, wit, it would probabaly still be rape. Forget it.

                >I have a theory that the Chikane in
                >control now is mostly the Chikane of the past.

                Interesting theory. Where's the connection? The Chikane of the past didn't
                seem so mercenary.

                This Chikane isn't above using the women around her - unless her behavior
                toward Otoha and the kyudo club girl were just practice for Himeko.
                ("Hmm...let's see, can I go wwell past appropriate and get away with it? I
                guess so...well, let's do this thing, then.")

                But that does lead to
                >some more questions. What does she know that has caused her so much
                >anger and insanity?

                I imagine it has alot to do with Himeko clearly being the gods' punching bag
                in the beginning. There's alot at stake and every sacrifice needs a
                victim...



                > > The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
                >nearly angry
                > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
                >anime, but
                > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
                >hasn't
                > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
                > >
                > >
                >
                >I have several theories:
                >
                >1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.

                I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the reason,
                Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
                "understand Chikane's feelings."

                >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
                >blames herself.

                Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes, definitely.
                But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
                exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely different
                people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own worth.


                >3) She's a blonde

                As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

                >
                >I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.

                Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)


                Cheers,

                Erica

                Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                http://www.yuricon.org


                "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                Because fanfic does not have to suck
              • Adam Jones
                On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, mellowrg ... How about: - She s turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane s
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
                  On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:03:02 -0000, "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
                  wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > >
                  > > >SPOILER SPACE
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
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                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >(AND SOME MORE)
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                  > I have several theories:
                  >
                  > 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
                  > 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
                  > blames herself.
                  > 3) She's a blonde

                  How about:

                  - She's turning into Usagi, and hence is more worried about Chikane's
                  suffering.

                  - She thinks Chikane is being controlled/possessed by Orochi and, left
                  to her own devices, would never think such "perverted" things.
                  --
                  Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
                  .oO("I hate that." )
                  PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
                • mellowrg
                  ... decide to do ... It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I d like to think they end up
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
                    --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:


                    > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her
                    decide to do
                    > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.
                    >
                    >

                    It was, but I tend to be more forgiving when I realize that both
                    Chikane and Himeko are young and warped. XD I'd like to think they end
                    up living happily ever after.... with some counciling.

                    > You'd have to be
                    > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
                    different
                    > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
                    worth.
                    >
                    >

                    If her childhood is any indication, she was born to be dissed. LOL. I
                    guess that cancels out every other goodwill she received. Her problem
                    is she thinks thinks that people are only kind to her out of symphaty.
                  • Chalcahuite
                    ... I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot twist confusion. ... No matter how hard I try I just can t get myself to a place
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
                      On Dec 3, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Erica Friedman wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >> From: "mellowrg" <mellowrg@...>
                      >> Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >> To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >>>> SPOILER SPACE
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>>
                      >>>> (AND SOME MORE)
                      >>>>
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                      >
                      >>> I feel the same way. i mean, I can *almost* see what she was
                      >> thinking, but
                      >>> it seems to me that there are better ways to go about it than rape.
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >> It's still confusing isn't it?
                      >
                      > Not really. This anime isn't deep enough to be confusing. :-)

                      I thought it was more of a bad writing confusion, not a dazzling plot
                      twist confusion.

                      > I'm pretty sure I can guess what Chikane learned that made her decide
                      > to do
                      > what she did, but I still think it was stupid.

                      No matter how hard I try I just can't get myself to a place where that
                      seems like a good idea. Maybe if I order up a PCP/crack cocktail . . .
                      .

                      >>> The person I understand least is, of course, Himeko. She isn;t
                      >> nearly angry
                      >>> and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is only a crap-tastic
                      >> anime, but
                      >>> still. She recovered awfully fast - and her obsession with Chikane
                      >> hasn't
                      >>> even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery of that.
                      >>>
                      >> I have several theories:
                      >>
                      >> 1) She may already have an idea what's going on subconsciously.
                      >
                      > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that, regardless of the
                      > reason,
                      > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what it is, so she can
                      > "understand Chikane's feelings."
                      >
                      >> 2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to find the answer she
                      >> blames herself.
                      >
                      > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old Himeko, yes,
                      > definitely.
                      > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed her. You'd have to be
                      > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three completely
                      > different
                      > people tell you that they'd die for you and still not see your own
                      > worth.

                      It was a welcome change to see Himeko express determination and resolve
                      for the first time.

                      >
                      >> 3) She's a blonde
                      >
                      > As a brunette I will refrain from commenting. LOL

                      It really does explain a lot, doesn't it. ;) And I say E) all of the
                      above.

                      >> I'm glad that's finally she doing something about it, though.
                      >
                      > Me too - this anime needs a new deus for the ex machina. :-)

                      I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
                      end of this train wreck.

                      -==-
                      Serge
                      http://ximatl.blogspot.com
                    • Erica Friedman
                      ... What s really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent endings. Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
                        >From: Chalcahuite <ximatl@...>
                        >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com

                        >I'm looking forward to seeing the twisted metal and casualties at the
                        >end of this train wreck.

                        What's really encouraging is that Gainax is *so* well known for excellent
                        endings. <snort>

                        Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and chikane die
                        in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending visible at
                        this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is it has
                        an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL


                        Cheers,

                        Erica

                        Yuricon - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                        http://www.yuricon.org


                        "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                        The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                        Because fanfic does not have to suck
                      • mellowrg
                        ... chikane die ... visible at ... it has ... Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 3, 2004
                          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Friedman" <alecto_fury@h...> wrote:

                          > Seriously, I think the best we can hope for is that Himeko and
                          chikane die
                          > in each other's arms, because frankly, there's really no ending
                          visible at
                          > this moment that *I* would categorize as "happy." We'll be lucky is
                          it has
                          > an ending at all, and doesn't just stop. LOL
                          >
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > Erica
                          >

                          Have you ever watched Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Erica? Kannaduki is
                          basically that, but with Mechs and Lesbians.

                          Furthermore it's a spoof on Super Robots.

                          The ending won't be bad in the way you expect, but there is a good
                          chance that it might have a rushed resolution.
                        • Akra
                          I guess I ll preclude my thoughts by saying I think Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
                            I guess I'll preclude my thoughts by saying I think
                            Himeko needs therapy. SERIOUS therapy. And that Gainex
                            may not know endings, but they DO know how to create
                            severely mentally f'd up characters. We'll take the
                            rest from those two assumptions.

                            Oh, and I got my degree in psychology. Not that it
                            means I'm right, but just that it's a strong interest
                            of mine to over-analyze things constantly. ^_~ And I'm
                            long-winded, so my apologies. ^^;

                            > > > The person I understand least is, of course,
                            > Himeko. She isn;t
                            > >nearly angry
                            > > > and bewildered enough. I'm aware that this is
                            > only a crap-tastic
                            > >anime, but
                            > > > still. She recovered awfully fast - and her
                            > obsession with Chikane
                            > >hasn't
                            > > > even changed a teeny weeny bit. I'm a bit leery
                            > of that.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >I have several theories:
                            > >
                            > >1) She may already have an idea what's going on
                            > subconsciously.
                            >
                            > I'd agree with that. She clearly believes that,
                            > regardless of the reason,
                            > Chikane *had* a reason, and she wants to know what
                            > it is, so she can
                            > "understand Chikane's feelings."

                            I definitely buy into this. From her previous
                            behavior, it's pretty obvious that Chikane's a person
                            she trusts completely. It may not be the only person,
                            but she IS one of those people. Combine that with her
                            being in love with her (love being something I think
                            goes hand in hand with complete trust), and that's a
                            dangerous blow to Himeko's sensibility.

                            It's a hard thing to accept that a person you trusted
                            completely was a poor choice for it, especially if
                            your self-esteem is THAT low, so I think that's partly
                            why Himeko's heart was still so open to Chikane after
                            the rape. She WANTS to believe there's a greater
                            reason there, because she's still clinging to that
                            complete trust. She doesn't want to let it go for the
                            fear of the change that would bring.

                            And as far as Himeko not really expressing thoughts
                            and feelings...I tend to think she's an INFJ on the
                            MBTI. (One of these days I want to make a MBTI
                            character analysis for this series, because despite
                            crap-tastic attributes, it's actually a serious
                            contender for one of my all-time favorite animes) This
                            would mean that while she expresses emotions
                            externally, she thinks internally. Meaning she's far
                            more likely to cry and smile and show her feelings to
                            the world in general than her thoughts. Granted she's
                            guarded with the world in general due to past
                            experience, but I see her thought /processes/ as being
                            more closely guarded then her reactions (as opposed to
                            Chikane, who is definitely an internal feeler--I think
                            a INFP?)

                            Back to post-rape. She sat there, and stared off into
                            nothing, either dry-eyed or tears streaming down her
                            face. I believe the natural feelings of "why???" and
                            anger and betrayal and bitterness and thinking about
                            what happened were all behind that stare. All
                            internal, behind the mask of crying. Her low
                            self-esteem and past explains why she didn't show
                            anger and other "troublesome" emotions, because she
                            probably thinks she needs to go through life as
                            perfect a girl as possible, and perfect girls just
                            don't SHOW those emotions, right? I think that's true
                            in both Eastern and Western cultures...

                            > >2) She has low self esteem. Rather than trying to
                            > find the answer she
                            > >blames herself.
                            >
                            > Mmm, there's something to be said for this. The old
                            > Himeko, yes, definitely.
                            > But I think Himeko's talk with Mako-chan changed
                            > her. You'd have to be
                            > exceptioanlly stupid and self-absorbed to have three
                            > completely different
                            > people tell you that they'd die for you and still
                            > not see your own worth.

                            Or exceptionally traumatized, which I see Himeko as
                            being. A single talk with a friend just won't change
                            someone that easily, sadly. It takes a lot of time to
                            counter a lifetime of being told directly and
                            indirectly that you're worthless. How many times have
                            we heard the phrase "watashi no sei de" or a variant
                            from Himeko's mouth in the series? If you think you're
                            a worthless waste of space, you think you're bad. And
                            if you think you're bad, you think everything around
                            you that's bad is caused by you, because the only
                            source of "bad" you can see is yourself.

                            Everyone looks for a reason why they're told they're
                            bad, and if you're told that often enough such that
                            you internalize that thinking, you're going to
                            reinforce that in yourself. Because to lose that
                            perception means to lose yourself. Objectively, it's
                            messed up to be sure...but it's true.


                            Now, how this all works into 10, from what I saw (I
                            have a limited understanding of Japanese, so this is
                            all muddled interpretation from seeing the ep. and my
                            crap-tastic translation "skills" ^^;)

                            SPOILER





                            SPOILER





                            SPOILER




                            Okay, so we see Himeko embracing into her life Chikane
                            when she gets back. She's SO relieved to have her
                            Chikane-chan back that she even wants to sleep in the
                            same bed as Chikane, something she never did before
                            the rape. This seems counter-intuitive on the surface,
                            but it has reasons.

                            A) She might be trying to prove to herself that
                            Chikane wouldn't do that to her again, if she's acting
                            like herself as Chikane was doing so before that
                            point. I wouldn't doubt that this is a component of
                            that choice.

                            B) But deeper into Himeko's psyche, I think the
                            reasons are darker. It's pretty obvious through the
                            series that Himeko's a masochist--in life, in
                            thoughts, in feelings. Why would the bedroom be a
                            place that's a different reaction from her?

                            Himeko's only really gotten suffering for much of her
                            life, so she learned to love that suffering on some
                            level in order to survive. So when Chikane raped her,
                            she hated it on a surface level (as well she should--I
                            don't meant to say AT ALL that the rape itself was
                            good for Chikane to do. Please understand that.) But I
                            can see that, even if she hated it on a surface level
                            and even if she can't feel aroused yet from the
                            experience, she liked it deep inside. Because it was
                            the level of painful experience she'd experienced all
                            her life and had learned to love, and the person she
                            loves most (we think) gave it to her finally. Why do
                            you think Himeko didn't respond to Chikane when she
                            was being nice? Or simply didn't GET it? Because she
                            doesn't associate people being nice to her as being a
                            positive thing, or even a desirable thing to herself.
                            As much as my yuri-lovin' side wants to think Himeko
                            cried at Souma's kiss because her soul felt how WRONG
                            it was, I think she really cried because it wasn't
                            what she REALLY wants from her mate--she just isn't
                            capable of taking happiness into herself, and just
                            knows how to appreciate and deal with someone causing
                            her pain. She wants to be mistreated, as her current
                            mental state is, because it affirms love from the
                            person.

                            Which is why I think Himeko wanted to be in Chikane's
                            bed so much. Even if she didn't let herself feel
                            physically aroused, she was MENTALLY aroused. Or maybe
                            even physically aroused, but I'll leave that to the
                            imagination. I don't have the stomach to write that
                            kind of fanfic, so I'd rather not think of it. >_>;;;

                            ^^;;; I might as well just write essays on Himeko and
                            Chikane, at this rate. But they're my favorite anime
                            couple now, followed only by Tsuzuki and Hisoka from
                            Yami no Matsuei. ^_~ Notice a trend here?

                            Akra

                            =====
                            No one is an island, but some of us are peninsulas




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                          • mellowrg
                            I believe you are correct. They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives as well.
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 5, 2004
                              I believe you are correct.

                              They have an extended S&M relationship. Probably in their past lives
                              as well.
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