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Re: MariMite: The story of Yumi & Sei.

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  • Jen
    ... I think it s not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who s also a YamaYurikai, but methinks
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
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      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Like I said, if you don't like Sachiko, then you don't like her.


      I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for
      Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who's also a
      YamaYurikai, but methinks Yumi may be forcing herself into believing
      being the soeur of Sachiko is a good thing because Sachiko is SO
      idolised, and Yumi may be falling ever upwards.

      However, what disturbs me more than Yumi's self-induced shredding of
      body and mind in the name of Sachiko is Sachiko's own apparent
      disregard for the soeur concept... at least the taking of one of her
      own.


      It's already been established that Sachiko took a soeur for the sole
      purpose of getting out of the Cinderella role, and Yumi just
      happened to be who she tripped over. Sachiko was ready to hang Yumi
      with that rosary, despite handing what should be a precious sign of
      faith to a complete stranger for all the wrong reasons.

      Strange, as Sachiko herself seems to appreciate the closeness and
      importance of choosing just the right person as a petite soeur
      through her enlistment by Youko, and yet Sachiko seemed
      disinterested in applying any such effort in her own soeur quest.


      I have only just finished watching episode #6 of season two, and I
      see in flashback Sachiko publicly announcing her intent to take
      Shimako as her soeur, and that was again merely a means to an end.
      Granted, Sachiko's smile at Sei's usurpment of Shimako indicates it
      was all a ploy (orchestrated by Youko?) to force Sei into taking
      Shimako as her own, but what if Sei called Sachiko's bluff? What if
      it wasn't a bluff at all? Now we have Sachiko once again taking a
      soeur as a means to an end with no more emotional investment than
      signing the act off from that day's TO DO list.

      Does the soeur system mean so little to Sachiko? I find myself
      sceptical, considering how close Sachiko and Youko appear to be...
      and yet I may be mistaken in that, too. It may simply be respect
      for a superior and simple friendliness as has been mentioned.
      Regardless, twice now I've seen Sachiko show utter disregard for the
      rosary offering, and an almost stark refusal to admit to the
      importance and responsibility of taking a junior under your wing.

      Contrast this to all the angst and drama that has been played out in
      the stories of the other gals in their choice of soeur, and we end
      up with yet another indication that Sachiko considers Yumi as
      something far less than a soeur would and should be.


      Keep in mind this is not Sachiko-bashing. I just can't see the
      merit in giving Sachiko the benefit of the doubt, and believing in
      the things she doesn't say or do, excusing everything I see just
      because Sachiko keeps it all inside. Faced with what her emotional
      distancing is doing to Yumi both physically and mentally, it hardly
      seems to fair to keep cheering for these two when Yumi is clearly
      the one who's suffering, self-inflicted or not.

      But then, with the graduates out of the picture, it will be
      interesting to see without foresight on what the series will focus
      on, now that the always entertaining Yumi & Sei Saga is shelved.

      Pity. Those two brought such comic funniness out of the web
      fanartists. Never forgetting that rakugaki of Queen Sei on her
      throne (with YamaYurikai maids), the following had me absolutely
      spitting with laughter. ^_^

      http://punistation.fuyucorp.biz/puni/Yuri/Maria/5Frame.gif

      The comic continues, but like all punchlines (pun intended), it's
      best not to stretch the joke. Besides, it's just TOO funny. ^_^


      Kisses XXOOXX
      Jen
    • atheniag
      ... That may be, but by the time you have seen the end of ~Haru, perhpas you will relaize that Yumi has nothing to fear. ... Go back and watch the first arc
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:

        > I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for
        > Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who's also a
        > YamaYurikai, but methinks Yumi may be forcing herself into believing
        > being the soeur of Sachiko is a good thing because Sachiko is SO
        > idolised, and Yumi may be falling ever upwards.

        That may be, but by the time you have seen the end of ~Haru, perhpas
        you will relaize that Yumi has nothing to fear.


        > It's already been established that Sachiko took a soeur for the sole
        > purpose of getting out of the Cinderella role, and Yumi just
        > happened to be who she tripped over.

        Go back and watch the first arc again. There was a crucial little
        scene that you missed.

        Youko is questioning Sachiko's intent, and Sachiko says that even if
        Yumi is not take the role, Sachiko wants her as souer.

        Youko follows that with, "Good, because if you had decided that, then
        I would have had to dissolve our bond, as well."

        Sachiko does not take Yumi as her souer because she only wants out of
        the role. It might have been her initial motivation ofr a brief moment
        in the YYK room, but there was no such motivation in her mind when she
        walked up to Yumi and straightened her tie.

        Sachiko was ready to hang Yumi
        > with that rosary, despite handing what should be a precious sign of
        > faith to a complete stranger for all the wrong reasons.

        Which is why Youko and Sei suggest the penalty game - so Yumi and
        sachiko could work together and get to know each other.

        When Sachiko asks Yumi, as it has been mentioned, she says that it's
        not a bet, not an obligation - at that moment, she simply wants Yumi,
        whom she has come to know and treasure, for a souer.


        >
        > I have only just finished watching episode #6 of season two, and I
        > see in flashback Sachiko publicly announcing her intent to take
        > Shimako as her soeur, and that was again merely a means to an end.
        > Granted, Sachiko's smile at Sei's usurpment of Shimako indicates it
        > was all a ploy (orchestrated by Youko?) to force Sei into taking
        > Shimako as her own, but what if Sei called Sachiko's bluff? What if
        > it wasn't a bluff at all? Now we have Sachiko once again taking a
        > soeur as a means to an end with no more emotional investment than
        > signing the act off from that day's TO DO list.


        OTOH, perhaps Sachiko really does feel that Shimako would make a ghod
        souer. Shimako is helpful and pleasant, and accomplished - exactly the
        kind of girl that *would* make a good souer.

        Sachiko can, as well as anyone else, see that Shimako can't keep
        helping out with no formalization of her position. Why shouldn't she
        ask Shimako to be her souer - even if she was well aware that Shimako
        might say no.

        A souer relationship doesn't HAVE to be love. It should be friendship
        and caring. I see no reason to doubt that Sachiko cares for Shimako,
        and would have liked to have her as a souer.

        Personally, I cannot for the life of me see what everyone is sayng
        about the Sachiko/Shimako thing. I don't see a plot, or anything.

        The only scenario that makes any sense to me is quite simple. Sachiko
        goes to Youko and asks permission to ask Shimako. Youko say yes, but
        don't expect Shimako to say yes, and *do* expect a reaction from Sei.

        Sachiko says that this is fine, but she thinks Shimako would make a
        good souer and asks her.

        Shimako says no (there was no rancour there, when Shimako explains to
        Yumi that she said no because she felt that they would be a bad match
        - and the example shoved up our noses in the first arc where we can't
        see it is that Shimako loves sakura and gingko...but Sachiko strongly
        dislikes both. Shimako was right - they would not have made a good
        fit.)

        As Youko predicted, Sei reacts. Sachiko, in my opinion wears a wry,
        but not unhappy smile as Sei hares off to make Shimako her souer.

        I just don't see any evidence of connivance or meanness...only a bunch
        of teenaged girls trying to work stuff out.

        Anyway, it's pretty clear that Sachiko has become the popular punching
        bag. It's a shame, because like I keep saying, IMHO, she's the
        lonliest of the bunch and Yumi (as she well knows) is the best thing
        that ever happened to her. Sachiko cannot help that she has been
        brought up having to be a perfect doll, with few outlets for emotional
        release.

        As for yumi - *she* is the only one who is keeping her away from
        attiaing sachiko's status. Trust me - they make this very, very plain
        in the novel...Yumi has a massive case of low seldf esteem, that WILL
        change in Parasol wo Sashite.

        I won't keep beating this horse, because it's dead, but no matter how
        I look at it, I just cannot see Youko as conniving, Sachiko as mean,
        or Yumi as pathetically reaching towards something that she will never
        reach.


        Cheers,

        Erica
      • Jen
        ... how I look at it, I just cannot see Youko as conniving... I always pick the horse up and administer mouth to mouth. I believe in the horse. I believe in
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
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          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...>
          wrote:
          >
          > "I won't keep beating this horse, because it's dead, but no matter
          how I look at it, I just cannot see Youko as conniving..."


          I always pick the horse up and administer mouth to mouth. I believe
          in the horse. I believe in hope.

          I think what sparked the "plot" idea was Yoko's ear-to-ear grin at
          the sports festival, where she beamed at Sei and slyly informed her
          that she thinks "another matter will be resolved as intended."
          Instant cut to the Sei/Sachiko confrontation (wow, Sei IS tall).
          When even Sei utters that it "sounds like Yoko planned this",
          Sachiko states that she need ask NO-one's permission to approach
          *anyone* to be her soeur.

          Though no details are set in stone, all the above is pure
          speculation fodder, and it's always fun to make the proudly nosey
          Yoko appear more machiavellian than she may truly be.

          As for what "everyone is saying about the Sachiko/Shimako thing", I
          am definitely behind in terms of watching my Mary-sama fansubs (it's
          such a dirty, criminal act), so I think I must have missed the
          YuriCon great debate on that subject. Shame, that. I only just
          catch up, and all the good discussions were all several weeks
          back. -_-

          Kisses XXOOXX
          Jen
        • atheniag
          ... No problem! LOL I can keeping beating this horse, too- I just figured that you d get sick of it. :-) ... I will concede the point, even as I point out that
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 14, 2004
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:

            >
            > I always pick the horse up and administer mouth to mouth. I believe
            > in the horse. I believe in hope.

            No problem! LOL I can keeping beating this horse, too- I just figured
            that you'd get sick of it. :-)

            >
            > I think what sparked the "plot" idea was Yoko's ear-to-ear grin at
            > the sports festival, where she beamed at Sei and slyly informed her
            > that she thinks "another matter will be resolved as intended."
            > Instant cut to the Sei/Sachiko confrontation (wow, Sei IS tall).
            > When even Sei utters that it "sounds like Yoko planned this",
            > Sachiko states that she need ask NO-one's permission to approach
            > *anyone* to be her soeur.

            I will concede the point, even as I point out that she is wrong.
            Sachiko does run her choices by Youko - let's say for "advice" rather
            than "permission." It only makes sense that she does - Youko is her
            grande souer, after all.

            I think I've done Sachiko a disservice, though, by not assuming that
            she knew, as well as Youko, what kind of person Sei is and how she
            would respond. After all, Sei knopws how to get Sachiko'
            s goat - it only stands to reason that Sachiko would know what would
            tweak Sei. Even if she didn't, I'm sure Youko would have mentioned it.

            I suppose I just don't see this whole thing as a bad thing. It is
            fairly clear that Sei (BY, Before Yumi) is unlikely to act unless
            provoked. Youko clealry cares deeply for Sei and wants her to be happy
            - if she and Sachiko arrange this so that Sei will act, then, I guess
            i just don't see it as a problem.

            When achiko and Rei interfere to force Shimako to act, it's much more
            clumsy (at least in part because of Touko), but in the end they are
            all happy, so I won't let it get to me. :-)

            To go back to the original topic, which was your concern about Yumi
            and Sachiko as suited for one another

            In the beginning of the second novel, Yumi's very low self-esteem is
            once again horrifically obvious. She comes to the meeting late and
            Sachiko rebukes her - she is concerned that Sachiko will ask for her
            rosary back, etc, etc. But as i read, I realize that these are not
            Sachiko's failings - these are *Yumi's*. SHE is the one who projects
            all the moddiness and strictness on Sachiko. Sachiko herself is
            incredibly caring and attentive. Yumi simply feels unworthy ad
            outclassed. (This dynamic changes in Rainy Blue and Parasol wo
            Sashite, when Yumi finally matures.)

            On a related note, Yumi wonders what, exactly Rei and Eriko's
            realtionship is, because (and this is why I bring it up) her's and
            Sachiko's she defines as "thrilling" and Sei's and Shimako's as "the
            same person together". (The phrase is "onaji hito doushi" which is
            sort of like saying "two peas in a pod." LOL) So Yumi , who isn't a
            dumb cluck by any stretch, but has a tendency to be goofy, so we don't
            see the smart so much, recognizes Sei and Shimako's natures as being
            really similar right off. How much more Sachiko and Youko would
            understand them, then, having had more experience with them.

            As I have commented in the past, Sei gets Sachiko back, through all
            her teasing and attention to Yumi. It was at least originaly a way to
            tweak Sachiko...but it backfired, because Yumi's just a really sweet
            kid and Sei ends up actually liking her. lol



            > Though no details are set in stone, all the above is pure
            > speculation fodder, and it's always fun to make the proudly nosey
            > Yoko appear more machiavellian than she may truly be.

            It doesn't read anything like machiavellian from my perspective -
            she's simply the best of the YYK at reading and understanding people.
            She'll be a good manager and and excellent leader, because she is a
            smart cookie. I don't see a high level of interference her - just
            perfectly normal interactions with the people around her.

            If Youko advises her souer (and I'm now assuming Sachiko understood
            this perfectly well) that, upon asking Shimako to be her souer, it
            will force Sei to react, so either way the YYK would gain Shimako...it
            doesn't really seem like *much* of a set-up, does it? :-) Sure, Sei
            would lash out, because she's a freakin' overwrought 16 year old. In 5
            years, she and Youko will get together and laugh over what they
            thought was *such* a big deal at the time. LOL

            Cheers,

            Erica
          • Jen
            RE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yuricon/message/16546 ... I think it s not so much a dislike for Sachiko... Well, even if it s a subconscious thing, it
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 14, 2005
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              RE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yuricon/message/16546

              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:

              "I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko..."


              Well, even if it's a subconscious thing, it certainly ain't for the
              manga Sachiko. Having just finished chapters 1-6, I'm shocked to
              see Sachiko acting like a totally different person!

              Maybe it's the eyes of her anime model? How they're always near
              closed, like a cat with that expression they do so well. That "Why
              do you bother me by making me acknowledge your existence in my
              world?" look they cast in your direction. Sachiko's got that goin'
              on 24/7, with all the superior condescension I say she projects.
              But Manga Sachiko? No~ooooo...

              Manga Sachiko never does that once! Here eyes are so wide open!
              She's so very *expressive* it's like I'm reading about a totally
              different character. Just look at Sachiko! She huffs, goes all
              chibi, exasperates, yells, sighs, smiles so often it's such a shock
              of the new, she comically growls and she plays with her hair and...
              and... it just ain't the Sachiko I've known. The *only* one I've
              known.

              It's strange, the manga being so much more comical and funny
              compared to the angst so often dripping from the anime.

              This is just a realisation by me said out loud. That's all. Sorry
              for the necroposting. ^_^


              Kisses XXOOXX
              Jen




              >
              >
              > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Like I said, if you don't like Sachiko, then you don't like her.
              >
              >
              > I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for
              > Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who's also a
              > YamaYurikai, but methinks Yumi may be forcing herself into
              believing
              > being the soeur of Sachiko is a good thing because Sachiko is SO
              > idolised, and Yumi may be falling ever upwards.
              >
              > However, what disturbs me more than Yumi's self-induced shredding
              of
              > body and mind in the name of Sachiko is Sachiko's own apparent
              > disregard for the soeur concept... at least the taking of one of
              her
              > own.
              >
              >
              > It's already been established that Sachiko took a soeur for the
              sole
              > purpose of getting out of the Cinderella role, and Yumi just
              > happened to be who she tripped over. Sachiko was ready to hang
              Yumi
              > with that rosary, despite handing what should be a precious sign
              of
              > faith to a complete stranger for all the wrong reasons.
              >
              > Strange, as Sachiko herself seems to appreciate the closeness and
              > importance of choosing just the right person as a petite soeur
              > through her enlistment by Youko, and yet Sachiko seemed
              > disinterested in applying any such effort in her own soeur quest.
              >
              >
              > I have only just finished watching episode #6 of season two, and I
              > see in flashback Sachiko publicly announcing her intent to take
              > Shimako as her soeur, and that was again merely a means to an
              end.
              > Granted, Sachiko's smile at Sei's usurpment of Shimako indicates
              it
              > was all a ploy (orchestrated by Youko?) to force Sei into taking
              > Shimako as her own, but what if Sei called Sachiko's bluff? What
              if
              > it wasn't a bluff at all? Now we have Sachiko once again taking a
              > soeur as a means to an end with no more emotional investment than
              > signing the act off from that day's TO DO list.
              >
              > Does the soeur system mean so little to Sachiko? I find myself
              > sceptical, considering how close Sachiko and Youko appear to be...
              > and yet I may be mistaken in that, too. It may simply be respect
              > for a superior and simple friendliness as has been mentioned.
              > Regardless, twice now I've seen Sachiko show utter disregard for
              the
              > rosary offering, and an almost stark refusal to admit to the
              > importance and responsibility of taking a junior under your wing.
              >
              > Contrast this to all the angst and drama that has been played out
              in
              > the stories of the other gals in their choice of soeur, and we end
              > up with yet another indication that Sachiko considers Yumi as
              > something far less than a soeur would and should be.
              >
              >
              > Keep in mind this is not Sachiko-bashing. I just can't see the
              > merit in giving Sachiko the benefit of the doubt, and believing in
              > the things she doesn't say or do, excusing everything I see just
              > because Sachiko keeps it all inside. Faced with what her
              emotional
              > distancing is doing to Yumi both physically and mentally, it
              hardly
              > seems to fair to keep cheering for these two when Yumi is clearly
              > the one who's suffering, self-inflicted or not.
              >
              > But then, with the graduates out of the picture, it will be
              > interesting to see without foresight on what the series will focus
              > on, now that the always entertaining Yumi & Sei Saga is shelved.
              >
              > Pity. Those two brought such comic funniness out of the web
              > fanartists. Never forgetting that rakugaki of Queen Sei on her
              > throne (with YamaYurikai maids), the following had me absolutely
              > spitting with laughter. ^_^
              >
              > http://punistation.fuyucorp.biz/puni/Yuri/Maria/5Frame.gif
              >
              > The comic continues, but like all punchlines (pun intended), it's
              > best not to stretch the joke. Besides, it's just TOO funny. ^_^
              >
              >
              > Kisses XXOOXX
              > Jen
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