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MariMite: The story of Yumi & Sei.

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  • Jen
    I ve just finished episode #6 of season two (yeah I watch fansubs. I m a total criminal), and I ve got a question for those who ve read the books. Is Sachiko
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 11, 2004
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      I've just finished episode #6 of season two (yeah I watch fansubs.
      I'm a total criminal), and I've got a question for those who've read
      the books.


      Is Sachiko as uninteresting in the books as she is in the anime?

      When I first started watching MariLookyLooky, I thought it would be
      The Story of Yumi & Sachiko, but the more I watch, the more it seems
      to be about Yumi & Sei. Rather, Yumi acting as a Plot Device to
      start off Sei's Story.


      This is by no means a bad thing. I love watching Sei onscreen, and
      I'd be happy if the series was completely about Yumi and the Fee-fi-
      fo-fum come-to-the-arms-of-the-oh-NE-san, but I'm sure that wasn't
      the intent.

      Just watching the anime, I find Sachiko boring, aloof, dull,
      uninteresting... just the prissy lil' rich girl that probably
      deserves her FABulous fiancée. But then, compared to the
      yuririffic, wild, angry, not afraid to get in yo' face Sei, how
      *could* Sachiko me over?


      My yawning at Sachiko aside, the question remains: Is Sachiko as
      much a 2D cameo character in the books as she is in the anime (thus
      far), or is more time spent on her and her relationship with Yumi?

      Are the creators merely responding to a fanbase that was smitten
      with a secondary character in the books called Sei Sato, and so made
      her more prominent in the anime?

      I'd love to know. I'd also love more of what's happening now. The
      more time Yumi & Sei spend together on camera, the happier is lil'
      ol' me. It *never* stops being fun. ^_^

      ...until Sachiko walks into the room. Prissy lil' killjoy.


      Kisses XXOOXX
      Jen
    • atheniag
      ... Hard to answer - I don t find her uninteresting in the anime. :-) Sei is very open - we learn alot about her life and feelings. We learn much less about
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 11, 2004
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:
        >
        > I've just finished episode #6 of season two (yeah I watch fansubs.
        > I'm a total criminal), and I've got a question for those who've read
        > the books.
        >
        >
        > Is Sachiko as uninteresting in the books as she is in the anime?

        Hard to answer - I don't find her uninteresting in the anime. :-)

        Sei is very open - we learn alot about her life and feelings. We learn
        much less about Sachiko, and even the final arc serves mostly to point
        out how horribly ALONE Sachiko is in her own mind (and how utterly
        dreadful she is at reaching out and asking for help) so if you want to
        see Sachiko as boring, I guess that won't change much.

        But I don't see her as boring at all - I find her to be a complex and
        subtle character. She's a natural introvert and a girl who is forced,
        by the circumstances of being born into her family to have the kind of
        stiff upper lip that I'd never even consider being able to have.

        She's not outgoing, or extroverted, but IMHO, she's really quite real
        and interesting. Because she doesn't share much with Yumi, we really
        don;t know much about her, but if we pay attention to the things we
        see and hear, we actually DO learn alot about her. Sachiko's just not
        the one whose going to do the telling.

        >
        > When I first started watching MariLookyLooky, I thought it would be
        > The Story of Yumi & Sachiko,

        It isn't. It's the story of Yumi, and her interactions with the
        members of the Yamayurikai.

        As I've mentioned, somewhere around the 7th novel or so, the author
        ran into a dilemma...if she wanted to keep writing, the characters
        would have to become more real...because the two-dimensional quality
        was wearing thin. So, she took the plunge and made the characters
        realer, which meant that they became more annoying in many ways too,
        because they could no longer be one thing, as they were when the
        series was a comedy.

        I'm in agreement that Yumi and Sei are much more like Kohai/Sempai
        than Yumi and Sachiko...but I'm not sure that their relationship
        would/could go anywhere "more." Yumi clearly aches for Sachiko. (As
        you will see as the season progresses.)

        In the end of this season, the story *is* about Yumi and Sachiko -
        I've talked about why I feel that that does a disservice to all the
        second-years...but in general, I think that it's a strong ending to
        the season...and I'm REALLY looking forward to reading the novel.

        Anyway, alot of folks don't like Sachiko, because they think she's
        cold or aloof or nasty. I'm not in agreement, but hey, people are
        gonna have their opinions, so you're hardly alone. ;-)

        Now - let's talk about poor Eriko who never REALLY gets a personality.
        LOL

        Cheers,

        Erica
      • what is a dooky
        ... I have to agree: I m a big Sachiko fan (although equally fond of Sei). I love the fact that beneath her usually cold and passive exterior, there s an angry
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 11, 2004
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          > Hard to answer - I don't find her uninteresting in the anime. :-)

          I have to agree: I'm a big Sachiko fan (although equally fond of
          Sei). I love the fact that beneath her usually cold and passive
          exterior, there's an angry and passionate person trying to get out.
          Her enigmatic nature is what makes her interesting... Sei, on the
          other hand, is less interesting but much more entertaining ^_^

          dooky
        • Jen
          ... Hmmm... I think I m definitely seeing something else entirely as far as SachikoYumiDen is concerned. My feelings on Sachiko aside, all I see is a grossly
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hard to answer - I don't find her uninteresting in the anime. :-)


            Hmmm... I think I'm definitely seeing something else entirely as far
            as SachikoYumiDen is concerned. My feelings on Sachiko aside, all I
            see is a grossly UNhealthy relationship


            Take poor Yumi: From what I see, Yumi is always painstakingly
            uncomfortable around Sachiko. It's almost sad to watch. Observing
            Yumi, it seems as if she idolises Sachiko as a symbol of Aryan
            Nihonjin yamato perfection. Physically, in temperance and
            personality, Sachiko IS perfection, and Yumi seems to find utter
            happiness in merely being in orbit around someone like that, no
            matter how painful the daily life experience is.

            It sure seems painful to me, anyways. Aside from completely
            breaking down into a crying, heaving mess when she was unable to
            maintain a state of Sachiko-like detachment, I now see Yumi
            collapsing from stress and exhaustion (leading to the eventual
            crying fit), just so she could impress Sachiko, who would have
            merely been one in an audience of many seniors.


            Yumi can barely breathe around Sachiko, always appearing to want say
            just the right thing, act just the right way, raise her eyebrow for
            just the right reaction... all done in Sachiko-style, for to do
            otherwise would earn a scolding/look of disappointment from
            Sachiko... something Yumi cannot bare to withstand.

            Around here same-year friends, Yumi can speak plainly as friends
            would, even befriending a graduate senior like Sei to such a point
            that Yumi feels she can play practical jokes on her (or at least
            attempt to, anyway). Yumi can even speak in exasperation to Sei...
            something I don't think she would dare do with Sachiko. Yumi would
            collapse into a crying fit first, in public or otherwise.


            And then there's Sachiko herself. Perhaps there is indeed the Poor
            Little Rich Girl Who Just Wants to Hug beneath that aloof exterior,
            but I don't see how it warrants Yumi's emotional and physical self-
            destruction to let this bud bloom. Perhaps if I saw Sachiko put
            more of an effort into reaching out to Yumi (even in a Sachiko-like
            way), I'd hold out hope. Sadly, that hasn't happened yet. For all
            I remember, every moment of SachiYumi time (date, sleepover or
            otherwise) has always been orchestrated by someone other than
            Sachiko.

            Quality time aside, there's also her outward impatience of Yumi as a
            person. Sachiko seems to only talk to Yumi in three ways: To tell
            her off, to scold her, or to speak at her as if Yumi was a thing
            that amused her.

            "Silly Yumi, Holding a cheeseburger with your hands. The things you
            people do."

            "Naughty Yumi! Eating while standing up. Who has heard of such a
            thing?"

            "Bad Yumi! Bad! I don't care if Sei shoves her hand down your
            pants or not. One does NOT squeal! Buy some dignity!"


            It seems that Sachiko sees Yumi as something to talk at, rather than
            someone to talk to. Yumi appears to be this cartoon character to
            Sachiko, and it is imperative to Sachiko to reprimand Yumi for her
            own good. Do this properly, do that correctly, maintain grammar and
            poise, do not debase oneself. Sachiko either disapproves of Yumi,
            is embarrassed by but mostly FOR Yumi, or Sachiko remains amused
            from just watching this little cartoony girl and the way she
            dresses, acts and squeaks.

            I suppose one could argue that the walls between these two retracted
            just a bit when Sachiko cried her eyes out on Yumi in their
            Cinderella gowns, but I honestly think that's more because Yumi was
            *there*. If given a choice, the odds are good Sachiko would have
            chosen Youko in a heartbeat; but Yumi was all that was available,
            and was by then officially the Next Best Thing, albeit never taken
            seriously. I do however think their later date into Yumi's world of
            jeans and burgers was a direct result of Sachiko's release in that
            gazebo, resulting in Sachiko being closer to Yumi more by accident
            than intent (although I suppose that defines their entire
            relationship since the beginning).


            Am I being too hard on Sachiko? Do I merely have little patience,
            and think a school year's worth of development has been missed, or
            at the least done off-camera?

            It's always possible that the YamaYurikai and all other St Lillian
            students are so CRUSHED by schoolwork like the Utena cast were, and
            between homework and study hall the poor gals simply have NO TIME AT
            ALL for extracurricular activities like spending quality time with
            each other, that it may be understandable that Yumi & Sachiko
            haven't gotten anywhere near as comfortable with each other as they
            should have...

            ... but on a less sarcastic note, I still think Yumi is at her most
            stressed and uncomfortable when she's around Sachiko that it's just
            nowhere near healthy, and a year's worth of that must be taking it's
            toll, with no worthy payoff in sight. If I was in Yumi's class
            watching Yumi's sad act of self-destruction and shredding of any and
            all dignity just to be next to She who all admire, I'd probably hunt
            down and give an illegal copy of Photoshop to Tsutako the Camera
            Girl, and tell her to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to force an intervention
            between those two. That is, if I was sadistically mean and found
            sport in the suffering of others, that is. ^_^


            Wow. Long rant. Maybe it's the fact that I just watched fansub #6
            and was just bereaved at the prolonged goodbye to Sei and the other
            seniors, with an emphasis on just how close Sei and Yumi were, and
            just how far Sei and Yumi's relationship had progressed. The fact
            that Yumi could withstand the urge to squeal at Sei's spontaneous
            acts of glomping proved Yumi had gotten relatively comfortable with
            Sei. Granted, it took a year, but who's counting? Yumi could also
            give a good telling off to Sei, fist clenched. Those two are close
            like *this*, they are. Like friends. (Like soeurs?)

            Now that Sei's bowing out this far in, I'm forced to wander... what
            next? Where does the camera turn to now?

            Yumi and Sachiko? Now *that's* a novel idea.



            Kisses XXOOXX
            Jen

            P.S. RE: The Kiss. I can't believe AYU didn't fansub Yumi's line
            as "CUT!", instead going with "stop!". Kinda takes the funny outta
            it.
          • Jen
            ... out. ... I dunno, I found Azumanga s Sakaki to have a far more entertaining inner-turmoil. What fun it is, watching Sakaki literally hold herself
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "what is a dooky" <spookydooky@h...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > > Hard to answer - I don't find her uninteresting in the anime. :-)
              >
              > I have to agree: I'm a big Sachiko fan (although equally fond of
              > Sei). I love the fact that beneath her usually cold and passive
              > exterior, there's an angry and passionate person trying to get
              out.
              > Her enigmatic nature is what makes her interesting... Sei, on the
              > other hand, is less interesting but much more entertaining ^_^
              >
              > dooky

              I dunno, I found Azumanga's Sakaki to have a far more entertaining
              inner-turmoil. What fun it is, watching Sakaki literally hold
              herself together, trying to stop herself from releasing a hella loud
              girly squeal at something cute. Poor thing had to keep her own
              mouth close. Got so bad at times, that girl got the shakes holding
              it all in.

              But then, there's all the difference in the world between a comedy
              and good old fashioned high school angst.


              Kisses XXOOXX
              Jen
            • atheniag
              ... Try reading it this way: Sachiko touches Yumi to fix her tie. Sachiko touches Yumi to retie her hair ribon. Sachiko reaches around Yumi s neck to fix her
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:

                >
                > "Silly Yumi, Holding a cheeseburger with your hands. The things you
                > people do."
                >
                > "Naughty Yumi! Eating while standing up. Who has heard of such a
                > thing?"
                >
                > "Bad Yumi! Bad! I don't care if Sei shoves her hand down your
                > pants or not. One does NOT squeal! Buy some dignity!"
                >

                Try reading it this way:

                Sachiko touches Yumi to fix her tie.
                Sachiko touches Yumi to retie her hair ribon.
                Sachiko reaches around Yumi's neck to fix her collar
                Sachiko touches Yumi's face to wipe her mouth

                Like I said, if you don't like Sachiko, then you don't like her. :-)

                As I've oopined in the past, I see Sachiko as a girl who has had few
                outlets for affection in her life. When she corrects Yumi, it's her
                way of saying, "I'm watching you, and I care about you." I imagine
                it's the exact same thing her mother did to her.

                As for Yumi, you are right - she IS overwhelmed by sachiko. That's the
                entire point of the first arc/novel. It would be like if MO all of a
                sudden walked up to me and fixed my collar, took me by the hand and
                asked to be friends. I'd be a blithering idiot - and probably
                seriously stressed out by it... and I'm 39, not 15. LOL

                Remember, these are children, really. EVERYTHING is out of proportion
                in high school. :-)

                Cheers,

                Erica
              • atua101
                ... Even though I m no great fan of Sachiko, I ll wave her banner on the list this once. :-) ... Sachiko is *NOT* perfect by any means. Youko even says that
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hmmm... I think I'm definitely seeing something else entirely as
                  > far as SachikoYumiDen is concerned. My feelings on Sachiko aside,
                  > all I see is a grossly UNhealthy relationship

                  Even though I'm no great fan of Sachiko, I'll wave her banner on the
                  list this once. :-)

                  > Take poor Yumi: From what I see, Yumi is always painstakingly
                  > uncomfortable around Sachiko. It's almost sad to watch. Observing
                  > Yumi, it seems as if she idolises Sachiko as a symbol of Aryan
                  > Nihonjin yamato perfection. Physically, in temperance and
                  > personality, Sachiko IS perfection, and Yumi seems to find utter
                  > happiness in merely being in orbit around someone like that, no
                  > matter how painful the daily life experience is.

                  Sachiko is *NOT* perfect by any means. Youko even says that "she
                  (Sachiko) doesn't have a beautiful personality". What we do
                  know is that *Yumi* thinks she's perfect. Whilst Sachiko is
                  undoubtedly very talented, she has two main character flaws: 1) an
                  inability to express her emotions, 2) a certain obtuseness when it
                  comes to reading other people's emotional state.

                  As for Yumi's "pain" is that really because of Sachiko or because of
                  a character flaw in Yumi herself? It's understandable to take the
                  side of the protagonist since we see the story from Yumi's point of
                  view, but this doesn't change the fact that what she feels mostly
                  stems from her own lack of self-confidence.

                  These character flaws of Yumi & Sachiko really come back to haunt
                  them at the end of Marimite ~Haru, but this subject is probably best
                  left for another discussion. But I will say that watching Yumi grow
                  up and overcome these hardships to finally bloom as Rosa Chinensis en
                  Bouton was very satisfying. Rainy Blue is the last arc of Marimite
                  ~Haru, but it is also the start of a new chapter in the Yumi/Sachiko
                  relationship.

                  > It sure seems painful to me, anyways. Aside from completely
                  > breaking down into a crying, heaving mess when she was unable to
                  > maintain a state of Sachiko-like detachment, I now see Yumi
                  > collapsing from stress and exhaustion (leading to the eventual
                  > crying fit), just so she could impress Sachiko, who would have
                  > merely been one in an audience of many seniors.

                  I don't feel that impressing Sachiko is her goal at all. Even if it
                  is, it's only part of Yumi's motivation. She is genuinely
                  thankful for all that Sei (and Youko to a lesser extent) has done for
                  her over the year, and felt that the talent show was a chance to
                  express that. Is it so strange that she'd want it to go as well as
                  possible? Yumi's lack of self-confidence didn't help here
                  either.

                  > Yumi can barely breathe around Sachiko, always appearing to want
                  say
                  > just the right thing, act just the right way, raise her eyebrow for
                  > just the right reaction... all done in Sachiko-style, for to do
                  > otherwise would earn a scolding/look of disappointment from
                  > Sachiko... something Yumi cannot bare to withstand.

                  Again, is this a problem with Sachiko, or is this really a problem
                  only because of Yumi's extreme self-consciousness, particularly
                  around Sachiko?

                  > And then there's Sachiko herself. Perhaps there is indeed the Poor
                  > Little Rich Girl Who Just Wants to Hug beneath that aloof exterior,
                  > but I don't see how it warrants Yumi's emotional and physical self-
                  > destruction to let this bud bloom. Perhaps if I saw Sachiko put
                  > more of an effort into reaching out to Yumi (even in a Sachiko-like
                  > way), I'd hold out hope. Sadly, that hasn't happened yet. For all
                  > I remember, every moment of SachiYumi time (date, sleepover or
                  > otherwise) has always been orchestrated by someone other than
                  > Sachiko.

                  Whilst Sachiko has not been very assertive about spending "quality
                  time" with Yumi, it's a bit unfair to say that she's made no effort
                  at all. You have to keep in mind that Sachiko's a very reserved
                  person, by custom and inclination, and that any expression of
                  affection is going to be quite subtle. Some moments include:

                  * Retying Yumi's scarf even when unnecessary
                  * Giving Yumi sweets when she knows Yumi's missed breakfast
                  * Lying about which Valentine's chocolate she ate to spare
                  Yumi's feelings
                  * Letting Yumi decide the itinerary on their Valentine's date
                  * Trying to fit in at the burger place by eating with her hands
                  * Getting matching jeans & shoes with Yumi

                  > Quality time aside, there's also her outward impatience of Yumi as
                  a
                  > person. Sachiko seems to only talk to Yumi in three ways: To tell
                  > her off, to scold her, or to speak at her as if Yumi was a thing
                  > that amused her.

                  Whilst I'm no Japanese expert and perhaps this is an effect of the
                  translation/editing process, most of Sachiko's criticisms that you
                  mentioned are (much) more politely & formally phrased than what
                  you've indicated.

                  > It seems that Sachiko sees Yumi as something to talk at, rather
                  than
                  > someone to talk to. Yumi appears to be this cartoon character to
                  > Sachiko, and it is imperative to Sachiko to reprimand Yumi for her
                  > own good. Do this properly, do that correctly, maintain grammar
                  and
                  > poise, do not debase oneself. Sachiko either disapproves of Yumi,
                  > is embarrassed by but mostly FOR Yumi, or Sachiko remains amused
                  > from just watching this little cartoony girl and the way she
                  > dresses, acts and squeaks.

                  I genuinely believe that Sachiko is correcting Yumi with good & noble
                  intentions in mind. Sachiko isn't always the most adept at
                  expressing herself, and privately correcting someone (usually a
                  family member, or someone you consider a friend) is a way of
                  expressing that you care enough about someone to let them know when
                  they're not presenting themselves in the best light.

                  As for Sachiko telling off Yumi when Sei's around, I think that
                  it's partly out of jealousy & perhaps slight frustration over her
                  own apparent inability to remove the awkwardness that linger between
                  Yumi and herself, compared to the easy going camaraderie that exists
                  between Yumi & Sei.

                  > I suppose one could argue that the walls between these two
                  retracted
                  > just a bit when Sachiko cried her eyes out on Yumi in their
                  > Cinderella gowns, but I honestly think that's more because Yumi was
                  > *there*. If given a choice, the odds are good Sachiko would have
                  > chosen Youko in a heartbeat; but Yumi was all that was available,
                  > and was by then officially the Next Best Thing, albeit never taken
                  > seriously. I do however think their later date into Yumi's world
                  of
                  > jeans and burgers was a direct result of Sachiko's release in that
                  > gazebo, resulting in Sachiko being closer to Yumi more by accident
                  > than intent (although I suppose that defines their entire
                  > relationship since the beginning).

                  I'd have to totally disagree with that sentiment. Whilst their
                  meeting at the statue & later on at the Rose Mansion was indeed an
                  accident, Sachiko's offer & Yumi's acceptance was a deliberate act of
                  choice, not one of chance. As Sachiko says, "...not as a bet, or
                  out of pity. This is a sacred ritual.". How the two met does not truly
                  matter in the scheme of things. In fact, the fact that they did, at
                  such a time, would be called fate by some anime viewers & readers of
                  the novel.

                  The fact that the person whom Sachiko eventually opened up to was
                  Yumi was also not an accident. Whilst Youko can be quite compassionate
                  when required, the fact that Sachiko respects Youko greatly for her
                  leadership, wisdom and elegance probably made it *harder* to speak to
                  Youko in this matter. I feel that the Youko/Sachiko relationship can
                  be likened to a professional mentor/mentee relationship. Whilst
                  Sachiko has no difficulties with going to Youko for advice, she may
                  hesitate in seeking emotional support from Youko.

                  On the other hand, Yumi's completely open and honest expression of
                  her emotional state subconsciously invites other people to
                  reciprocate with emotional honesty in kind. We've seen this
                  happen with Sei, Yoshino and Shimako with their interactions with
                  Yumi. It's also a main factor in making Sachiko feel at ease
                  enough to share her past with Yumi.

                  I think Sachiko's meeting with Yumi is one of the best things to ever
                  happen in her life. Being with Yumi allows Sachiko to finally relax
                  from her self-imposed public façade and freely express herself
                  without guilt or embarrassment. To someone living the highly
                  structured life of a scion, Yumi must've seemed like a breath of
                  fresh air...

                  Apologies for the long post.


                  Cheers,

                  ~atua
                • mellowrg
                  To me it s quite simple. The de facto main characters of the first year arc is Yumi and Sei. The plot and development mainly revolve around those two. Sachiko
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 12, 2004
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                    To me it's quite simple.

                    The de facto main characters of the first year arc is Yumi and Sei.
                    The plot and development mainly revolve around those two. Sachiko is
                    more along the lines of a major support character.

                    That changes in the second year, however.
                  • Jen
                    ... I think it s not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who s also a YamaYurikai, but methinks
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
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                      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Like I said, if you don't like Sachiko, then you don't like her.


                      I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for
                      Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who's also a
                      YamaYurikai, but methinks Yumi may be forcing herself into believing
                      being the soeur of Sachiko is a good thing because Sachiko is SO
                      idolised, and Yumi may be falling ever upwards.

                      However, what disturbs me more than Yumi's self-induced shredding of
                      body and mind in the name of Sachiko is Sachiko's own apparent
                      disregard for the soeur concept... at least the taking of one of her
                      own.


                      It's already been established that Sachiko took a soeur for the sole
                      purpose of getting out of the Cinderella role, and Yumi just
                      happened to be who she tripped over. Sachiko was ready to hang Yumi
                      with that rosary, despite handing what should be a precious sign of
                      faith to a complete stranger for all the wrong reasons.

                      Strange, as Sachiko herself seems to appreciate the closeness and
                      importance of choosing just the right person as a petite soeur
                      through her enlistment by Youko, and yet Sachiko seemed
                      disinterested in applying any such effort in her own soeur quest.


                      I have only just finished watching episode #6 of season two, and I
                      see in flashback Sachiko publicly announcing her intent to take
                      Shimako as her soeur, and that was again merely a means to an end.
                      Granted, Sachiko's smile at Sei's usurpment of Shimako indicates it
                      was all a ploy (orchestrated by Youko?) to force Sei into taking
                      Shimako as her own, but what if Sei called Sachiko's bluff? What if
                      it wasn't a bluff at all? Now we have Sachiko once again taking a
                      soeur as a means to an end with no more emotional investment than
                      signing the act off from that day's TO DO list.

                      Does the soeur system mean so little to Sachiko? I find myself
                      sceptical, considering how close Sachiko and Youko appear to be...
                      and yet I may be mistaken in that, too. It may simply be respect
                      for a superior and simple friendliness as has been mentioned.
                      Regardless, twice now I've seen Sachiko show utter disregard for the
                      rosary offering, and an almost stark refusal to admit to the
                      importance and responsibility of taking a junior under your wing.

                      Contrast this to all the angst and drama that has been played out in
                      the stories of the other gals in their choice of soeur, and we end
                      up with yet another indication that Sachiko considers Yumi as
                      something far less than a soeur would and should be.


                      Keep in mind this is not Sachiko-bashing. I just can't see the
                      merit in giving Sachiko the benefit of the doubt, and believing in
                      the things she doesn't say or do, excusing everything I see just
                      because Sachiko keeps it all inside. Faced with what her emotional
                      distancing is doing to Yumi both physically and mentally, it hardly
                      seems to fair to keep cheering for these two when Yumi is clearly
                      the one who's suffering, self-inflicted or not.

                      But then, with the graduates out of the picture, it will be
                      interesting to see without foresight on what the series will focus
                      on, now that the always entertaining Yumi & Sei Saga is shelved.

                      Pity. Those two brought such comic funniness out of the web
                      fanartists. Never forgetting that rakugaki of Queen Sei on her
                      throne (with YamaYurikai maids), the following had me absolutely
                      spitting with laughter. ^_^

                      http://punistation.fuyucorp.biz/puni/Yuri/Maria/5Frame.gif

                      The comic continues, but like all punchlines (pun intended), it's
                      best not to stretch the joke. Besides, it's just TOO funny. ^_^


                      Kisses XXOOXX
                      Jen
                    • atheniag
                      ... That may be, but by the time you have seen the end of ~Haru, perhpas you will relaize that Yumi has nothing to fear. ... Go back and watch the first arc
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
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                        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:

                        > I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for
                        > Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who's also a
                        > YamaYurikai, but methinks Yumi may be forcing herself into believing
                        > being the soeur of Sachiko is a good thing because Sachiko is SO
                        > idolised, and Yumi may be falling ever upwards.

                        That may be, but by the time you have seen the end of ~Haru, perhpas
                        you will relaize that Yumi has nothing to fear.


                        > It's already been established that Sachiko took a soeur for the sole
                        > purpose of getting out of the Cinderella role, and Yumi just
                        > happened to be who she tripped over.

                        Go back and watch the first arc again. There was a crucial little
                        scene that you missed.

                        Youko is questioning Sachiko's intent, and Sachiko says that even if
                        Yumi is not take the role, Sachiko wants her as souer.

                        Youko follows that with, "Good, because if you had decided that, then
                        I would have had to dissolve our bond, as well."

                        Sachiko does not take Yumi as her souer because she only wants out of
                        the role. It might have been her initial motivation ofr a brief moment
                        in the YYK room, but there was no such motivation in her mind when she
                        walked up to Yumi and straightened her tie.

                        Sachiko was ready to hang Yumi
                        > with that rosary, despite handing what should be a precious sign of
                        > faith to a complete stranger for all the wrong reasons.

                        Which is why Youko and Sei suggest the penalty game - so Yumi and
                        sachiko could work together and get to know each other.

                        When Sachiko asks Yumi, as it has been mentioned, she says that it's
                        not a bet, not an obligation - at that moment, she simply wants Yumi,
                        whom she has come to know and treasure, for a souer.


                        >
                        > I have only just finished watching episode #6 of season two, and I
                        > see in flashback Sachiko publicly announcing her intent to take
                        > Shimako as her soeur, and that was again merely a means to an end.
                        > Granted, Sachiko's smile at Sei's usurpment of Shimako indicates it
                        > was all a ploy (orchestrated by Youko?) to force Sei into taking
                        > Shimako as her own, but what if Sei called Sachiko's bluff? What if
                        > it wasn't a bluff at all? Now we have Sachiko once again taking a
                        > soeur as a means to an end with no more emotional investment than
                        > signing the act off from that day's TO DO list.


                        OTOH, perhaps Sachiko really does feel that Shimako would make a ghod
                        souer. Shimako is helpful and pleasant, and accomplished - exactly the
                        kind of girl that *would* make a good souer.

                        Sachiko can, as well as anyone else, see that Shimako can't keep
                        helping out with no formalization of her position. Why shouldn't she
                        ask Shimako to be her souer - even if she was well aware that Shimako
                        might say no.

                        A souer relationship doesn't HAVE to be love. It should be friendship
                        and caring. I see no reason to doubt that Sachiko cares for Shimako,
                        and would have liked to have her as a souer.

                        Personally, I cannot for the life of me see what everyone is sayng
                        about the Sachiko/Shimako thing. I don't see a plot, or anything.

                        The only scenario that makes any sense to me is quite simple. Sachiko
                        goes to Youko and asks permission to ask Shimako. Youko say yes, but
                        don't expect Shimako to say yes, and *do* expect a reaction from Sei.

                        Sachiko says that this is fine, but she thinks Shimako would make a
                        good souer and asks her.

                        Shimako says no (there was no rancour there, when Shimako explains to
                        Yumi that she said no because she felt that they would be a bad match
                        - and the example shoved up our noses in the first arc where we can't
                        see it is that Shimako loves sakura and gingko...but Sachiko strongly
                        dislikes both. Shimako was right - they would not have made a good
                        fit.)

                        As Youko predicted, Sei reacts. Sachiko, in my opinion wears a wry,
                        but not unhappy smile as Sei hares off to make Shimako her souer.

                        I just don't see any evidence of connivance or meanness...only a bunch
                        of teenaged girls trying to work stuff out.

                        Anyway, it's pretty clear that Sachiko has become the popular punching
                        bag. It's a shame, because like I keep saying, IMHO, she's the
                        lonliest of the bunch and Yumi (as she well knows) is the best thing
                        that ever happened to her. Sachiko cannot help that she has been
                        brought up having to be a perfect doll, with few outlets for emotional
                        release.

                        As for yumi - *she* is the only one who is keeping her away from
                        attiaing sachiko's status. Trust me - they make this very, very plain
                        in the novel...Yumi has a massive case of low seldf esteem, that WILL
                        change in Parasol wo Sashite.

                        I won't keep beating this horse, because it's dead, but no matter how
                        I look at it, I just cannot see Youko as conniving, Sachiko as mean,
                        or Yumi as pathetically reaching towards something that she will never
                        reach.


                        Cheers,

                        Erica
                      • Jen
                        ... how I look at it, I just cannot see Youko as conniving... I always pick the horse up and administer mouth to mouth. I believe in the horse. I believe in
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 13, 2004
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                          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > "I won't keep beating this horse, because it's dead, but no matter
                          how I look at it, I just cannot see Youko as conniving..."


                          I always pick the horse up and administer mouth to mouth. I believe
                          in the horse. I believe in hope.

                          I think what sparked the "plot" idea was Yoko's ear-to-ear grin at
                          the sports festival, where she beamed at Sei and slyly informed her
                          that she thinks "another matter will be resolved as intended."
                          Instant cut to the Sei/Sachiko confrontation (wow, Sei IS tall).
                          When even Sei utters that it "sounds like Yoko planned this",
                          Sachiko states that she need ask NO-one's permission to approach
                          *anyone* to be her soeur.

                          Though no details are set in stone, all the above is pure
                          speculation fodder, and it's always fun to make the proudly nosey
                          Yoko appear more machiavellian than she may truly be.

                          As for what "everyone is saying about the Sachiko/Shimako thing", I
                          am definitely behind in terms of watching my Mary-sama fansubs (it's
                          such a dirty, criminal act), so I think I must have missed the
                          YuriCon great debate on that subject. Shame, that. I only just
                          catch up, and all the good discussions were all several weeks
                          back. -_-

                          Kisses XXOOXX
                          Jen
                        • atheniag
                          ... No problem! LOL I can keeping beating this horse, too- I just figured that you d get sick of it. :-) ... I will concede the point, even as I point out that
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 14, 2004
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                            --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:

                            >
                            > I always pick the horse up and administer mouth to mouth. I believe
                            > in the horse. I believe in hope.

                            No problem! LOL I can keeping beating this horse, too- I just figured
                            that you'd get sick of it. :-)

                            >
                            > I think what sparked the "plot" idea was Yoko's ear-to-ear grin at
                            > the sports festival, where she beamed at Sei and slyly informed her
                            > that she thinks "another matter will be resolved as intended."
                            > Instant cut to the Sei/Sachiko confrontation (wow, Sei IS tall).
                            > When even Sei utters that it "sounds like Yoko planned this",
                            > Sachiko states that she need ask NO-one's permission to approach
                            > *anyone* to be her soeur.

                            I will concede the point, even as I point out that she is wrong.
                            Sachiko does run her choices by Youko - let's say for "advice" rather
                            than "permission." It only makes sense that she does - Youko is her
                            grande souer, after all.

                            I think I've done Sachiko a disservice, though, by not assuming that
                            she knew, as well as Youko, what kind of person Sei is and how she
                            would respond. After all, Sei knopws how to get Sachiko'
                            s goat - it only stands to reason that Sachiko would know what would
                            tweak Sei. Even if she didn't, I'm sure Youko would have mentioned it.

                            I suppose I just don't see this whole thing as a bad thing. It is
                            fairly clear that Sei (BY, Before Yumi) is unlikely to act unless
                            provoked. Youko clealry cares deeply for Sei and wants her to be happy
                            - if she and Sachiko arrange this so that Sei will act, then, I guess
                            i just don't see it as a problem.

                            When achiko and Rei interfere to force Shimako to act, it's much more
                            clumsy (at least in part because of Touko), but in the end they are
                            all happy, so I won't let it get to me. :-)

                            To go back to the original topic, which was your concern about Yumi
                            and Sachiko as suited for one another

                            In the beginning of the second novel, Yumi's very low self-esteem is
                            once again horrifically obvious. She comes to the meeting late and
                            Sachiko rebukes her - she is concerned that Sachiko will ask for her
                            rosary back, etc, etc. But as i read, I realize that these are not
                            Sachiko's failings - these are *Yumi's*. SHE is the one who projects
                            all the moddiness and strictness on Sachiko. Sachiko herself is
                            incredibly caring and attentive. Yumi simply feels unworthy ad
                            outclassed. (This dynamic changes in Rainy Blue and Parasol wo
                            Sashite, when Yumi finally matures.)

                            On a related note, Yumi wonders what, exactly Rei and Eriko's
                            realtionship is, because (and this is why I bring it up) her's and
                            Sachiko's she defines as "thrilling" and Sei's and Shimako's as "the
                            same person together". (The phrase is "onaji hito doushi" which is
                            sort of like saying "two peas in a pod." LOL) So Yumi , who isn't a
                            dumb cluck by any stretch, but has a tendency to be goofy, so we don't
                            see the smart so much, recognizes Sei and Shimako's natures as being
                            really similar right off. How much more Sachiko and Youko would
                            understand them, then, having had more experience with them.

                            As I have commented in the past, Sei gets Sachiko back, through all
                            her teasing and attention to Yumi. It was at least originaly a way to
                            tweak Sachiko...but it backfired, because Yumi's just a really sweet
                            kid and Sei ends up actually liking her. lol



                            > Though no details are set in stone, all the above is pure
                            > speculation fodder, and it's always fun to make the proudly nosey
                            > Yoko appear more machiavellian than she may truly be.

                            It doesn't read anything like machiavellian from my perspective -
                            she's simply the best of the YYK at reading and understanding people.
                            She'll be a good manager and and excellent leader, because she is a
                            smart cookie. I don't see a high level of interference her - just
                            perfectly normal interactions with the people around her.

                            If Youko advises her souer (and I'm now assuming Sachiko understood
                            this perfectly well) that, upon asking Shimako to be her souer, it
                            will force Sei to react, so either way the YYK would gain Shimako...it
                            doesn't really seem like *much* of a set-up, does it? :-) Sure, Sei
                            would lash out, because she's a freakin' overwrought 16 year old. In 5
                            years, she and Youko will get together and laugh over what they
                            thought was *such* a big deal at the time. LOL

                            Cheers,

                            Erica
                          • Jen
                            RE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yuricon/message/16546 ... I think it s not so much a dislike for Sachiko... Well, even if it s a subconscious thing, it
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 14, 2005
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                              RE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Yuricon/message/16546

                              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:

                              "I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko..."


                              Well, even if it's a subconscious thing, it certainly ain't for the
                              manga Sachiko. Having just finished chapters 1-6, I'm shocked to
                              see Sachiko acting like a totally different person!

                              Maybe it's the eyes of her anime model? How they're always near
                              closed, like a cat with that expression they do so well. That "Why
                              do you bother me by making me acknowledge your existence in my
                              world?" look they cast in your direction. Sachiko's got that goin'
                              on 24/7, with all the superior condescension I say she projects.
                              But Manga Sachiko? No~ooooo...

                              Manga Sachiko never does that once! Here eyes are so wide open!
                              She's so very *expressive* it's like I'm reading about a totally
                              different character. Just look at Sachiko! She huffs, goes all
                              chibi, exasperates, yells, sighs, smiles so often it's such a shock
                              of the new, she comically growls and she plays with her hair and...
                              and... it just ain't the Sachiko I've known. The *only* one I've
                              known.

                              It's strange, the manga being so much more comical and funny
                              compared to the angst so often dripping from the anime.

                              This is just a realisation by me said out loud. That's all. Sorry
                              for the necroposting. ^_^


                              Kisses XXOOXX
                              Jen




                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atheniag" <anilesbocon01@h...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Like I said, if you don't like Sachiko, then you don't like her.
                              >
                              >
                              > I think it's not so much a dislike for Sachiko, but a concern for
                              > Yumi. She may be fortunate to have an onee-sama who's also a
                              > YamaYurikai, but methinks Yumi may be forcing herself into
                              believing
                              > being the soeur of Sachiko is a good thing because Sachiko is SO
                              > idolised, and Yumi may be falling ever upwards.
                              >
                              > However, what disturbs me more than Yumi's self-induced shredding
                              of
                              > body and mind in the name of Sachiko is Sachiko's own apparent
                              > disregard for the soeur concept... at least the taking of one of
                              her
                              > own.
                              >
                              >
                              > It's already been established that Sachiko took a soeur for the
                              sole
                              > purpose of getting out of the Cinderella role, and Yumi just
                              > happened to be who she tripped over. Sachiko was ready to hang
                              Yumi
                              > with that rosary, despite handing what should be a precious sign
                              of
                              > faith to a complete stranger for all the wrong reasons.
                              >
                              > Strange, as Sachiko herself seems to appreciate the closeness and
                              > importance of choosing just the right person as a petite soeur
                              > through her enlistment by Youko, and yet Sachiko seemed
                              > disinterested in applying any such effort in her own soeur quest.
                              >
                              >
                              > I have only just finished watching episode #6 of season two, and I
                              > see in flashback Sachiko publicly announcing her intent to take
                              > Shimako as her soeur, and that was again merely a means to an
                              end.
                              > Granted, Sachiko's smile at Sei's usurpment of Shimako indicates
                              it
                              > was all a ploy (orchestrated by Youko?) to force Sei into taking
                              > Shimako as her own, but what if Sei called Sachiko's bluff? What
                              if
                              > it wasn't a bluff at all? Now we have Sachiko once again taking a
                              > soeur as a means to an end with no more emotional investment than
                              > signing the act off from that day's TO DO list.
                              >
                              > Does the soeur system mean so little to Sachiko? I find myself
                              > sceptical, considering how close Sachiko and Youko appear to be...
                              > and yet I may be mistaken in that, too. It may simply be respect
                              > for a superior and simple friendliness as has been mentioned.
                              > Regardless, twice now I've seen Sachiko show utter disregard for
                              the
                              > rosary offering, and an almost stark refusal to admit to the
                              > importance and responsibility of taking a junior under your wing.
                              >
                              > Contrast this to all the angst and drama that has been played out
                              in
                              > the stories of the other gals in their choice of soeur, and we end
                              > up with yet another indication that Sachiko considers Yumi as
                              > something far less than a soeur would and should be.
                              >
                              >
                              > Keep in mind this is not Sachiko-bashing. I just can't see the
                              > merit in giving Sachiko the benefit of the doubt, and believing in
                              > the things she doesn't say or do, excusing everything I see just
                              > because Sachiko keeps it all inside. Faced with what her
                              emotional
                              > distancing is doing to Yumi both physically and mentally, it
                              hardly
                              > seems to fair to keep cheering for these two when Yumi is clearly
                              > the one who's suffering, self-inflicted or not.
                              >
                              > But then, with the graduates out of the picture, it will be
                              > interesting to see without foresight on what the series will focus
                              > on, now that the always entertaining Yumi & Sei Saga is shelved.
                              >
                              > Pity. Those two brought such comic funniness out of the web
                              > fanartists. Never forgetting that rakugaki of Queen Sei on her
                              > throne (with YamaYurikai maids), the following had me absolutely
                              > spitting with laughter. ^_^
                              >
                              > http://punistation.fuyucorp.biz/puni/Yuri/Maria/5Frame.gif
                              >
                              > The comic continues, but like all punchlines (pun intended), it's
                              > best not to stretch the joke. Besides, it's just TOO funny. ^_^
                              >
                              >
                              > Kisses XXOOXX
                              > Jen
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