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Haru 8 sub thoughts

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  • sean@centragarden.net
    OK, I am a huge Touko fan, but I will admit this is not her finest hour. She s not evil, in my opinion, she s just pushy. She has an aura of I know how to
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 30, 2004
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      OK, I am a huge Touko fan, but I will admit this is not
      her finest hour.  She's not evil, in my opinion, she's
      just pushy.  She has an aura of 'I know how to fix
      everything, so I will do it' to her that's both
      irritating and endearing.  But yeah, throwing the beads
      was wrong.

      That being said, I was startled when I saw this subbed
      to realize how Rei and Sachiko were in on EVERYTHING. 
      I had assumed that Touko merely went ahead with what
      she wanted and they played 'make sure she doesn't go
      too far'.  But no, she told them the entire plan and
      they WENT ALONG WITH IT.  I mean, I love Touko and
      all, but this was a dumb plan.  It's even clear she
      mentioned throwing the beads, as Rei and Sachiko's
      reactions show they knew it would happen.

      I think, more than anything, this shows that the
      current Yamayurikai (Sachiko, Rei, and Shimako) have
      one huge, huge problem that runs through all three of
      them - passivity.  Shimako is slightly different -
      she's not easily led by more assertive characters like
      Rei and Sachiko are, but she still rarely takes the
      initiative.  This is, I think, one reason why Touko's
      plan went through as is.  I mean hell, even Eriko and
      Sei would have agreed a quiet chat was best.  Both
      Sachiko and Rei seem slightly OOC here - the smugness
      they radiate not only doesn't suit them, it doesn't
      fit with the fact that this was all Touko's plan.

      The other thing that struck me was how much this
      reminded me of the current blogosphere campaign to
      'out' prominent right-wing Republicans as gay. 
      Shimako was essentially being outed as Buddhist in
      front of all the first-years, and while Sachiko and
      Rei clearly wanted to show 'you think this is a huge
      problem, but it's really not' it's somewhat callous
      and insensitive on their parts.

      Oh well, there's still lots of wonderful thigs here,
      notably anything with Shimako and Noriko together, and
      Touko's 'I played a great villain' line that had me
      howling with laughter.  The wacky Scooby Doo ending
      makes a little more sense now.

      Still, overall, I didn't like this as much the second
      time around.

      --SG
      --Touko needs a spinoff of her own - maybe a Murder,
      --She Wrote type show...
    • Adam Jones
      ... No kidding. Just a *little* on the crass side. I mean, couldn t they just have told Shimako in private that they knew? It would ve accomplished the same
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 30, 2004
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        On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:17:56 -0400, sean@... wrote:

        > That being said, I was startled when I saw this subbed
        > to realize how Rei and Sachiko were in on EVERYTHING.
        > I had assumed that Touko merely went ahead with what
        > she wanted and they played 'make sure she doesn't go
        > too far'. But no, she told them the entire plan and
        > they WENT ALONG WITH IT. I mean, I love Touko and
        > all, but this was a dumb plan.

        No kidding. Just a *little* on the crass side. I mean, couldn't they
        just have told Shimako in private that they knew? It would've
        accomplished the same effect...

        (Unless part of the plan was to publicly "out" Shimako and Noriko, I
        suppose.)

        > The other thing that struck me was how much this
        > reminded me of the current blogosphere campaign to
        > 'out' prominent right-wing Republicans as gay.

        ...always an entertaining pasttime...

        > Shimako was essentially being outed as Buddhist in
        > front of all the first-years, and while Sachiko and
        > Rei clearly wanted to show 'you think this is a huge
        > problem, but it's really not' it's somewhat callous
        > and insensitive on their parts.

        I think they should've organised a faked burning-at-the-stake for her.
        It would've been far more traditional.

        > --Touko needs a spinoff of her own - maybe a Murder,
        > --She Wrote type show...

        ITYM "Murder, She Experienced". Each week Touko gets murdered in a new
        and unusual way! Tune in next week for the thrilling "Death of a
        Thousand Cuts"!
        --
        Adam Jones (adam@...)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
        .oO("THIS IS AIBSOLUTELY LEGAL!" )
        PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
      • atua101
        ... I don t think Sachiko is a passive character at all. Though I do think that Rei & Sachiko are acting a bit OOC in this episode. They acted rather
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 30, 2004
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          --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, sean@c... wrote:
          > I think, more than anything, this shows that the
          > current Yamayurikai (Sachiko, Rei, and Shimako) have
          > one huge, huge problem that runs through all three of
          > them - passivity. Shimako is slightly different -
          > she's not easily led by more assertive characters like
          > Rei and Sachiko are, but she still rarely takes the
          > initiative. This is, I think, one reason why Touko's
          > plan went through as is. I mean hell, even Eriko and
          > Sei would have agreed a quiet chat was best. Both
          > Sachiko and Rei seem slightly OOC here - the smugness
          > they radiate not only doesn't suit them, it doesn't
          > fit with the fact that this was all Touko's plan.

          I don't think Sachiko is a passive character at all. Though I do think
          that Rei & Sachiko are acting a bit OOC in this episode. They acted
          rather thuggishly, far removed from their usual elegant selves.

          The only explanation I can give is that they were on a bit of a power
          trip from being newly made Rosas, and that Sachiko is trying to live
          up to Youko's name by forcing the situation. Not that Youko would
          *ever* have been so clumsy, heavy handed and overly melodramatic about
          it. What I don't understand is why Rei went along with it, and why
          Yoshino let Rei get away with Touko's plan, since there's no love lost
          between Yoshino & Touko?

          > Oh well, there's still lots of wonderful thigs here,
          > notably anything with Shimako and Noriko together, and
          > Touko's 'I played a great villain' line that had me
          > howling with laughter. The wacky Scooby Doo ending
          > makes a little more sense now.

          The villain line had me laughing out loud, it was so transparently
          evil. :)


          Cheers,

          ~atua
        • Chalcahuite
          ... No she s not evil, she s just drawn that way. ;) From my understanding, we were supposed to loathe Touko after this arc, but I don t hate her that much. I
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 30, 2004
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            On Sep 30, 2004, at 6:17 AM, sean@... wrote:

            > OK, I am a huge Touko fan, but I will admit this is not
            > her finest hour.  She's not evil, in my opinion, she's
            > just pushy.  She has an aura of 'I know how to fix
            > everything, so I will do it' to her that's both
            > irritating and endearing.  But yeah, throwing the beads
            > was wrong.

            No she's not evil, she's just drawn that way. ;) From my
            understanding, we were supposed to loathe Touko after this arc, but I
            don't hate her that much. I think they needed to make her OTT evil,
            like the mean girls in Oniisama E, replete with harsh lighting, for me
            to really despise her.

            (BTW: when Touko strikes her pose, underneath the "7" in the time
            stamp, the girl in the background resembles Kanako. There were
            screenshots on futaba-chan when it first aired, but I really didn't pay
            attention the first time. I'm not sure if it was purposeful or even a
            case of wanting to see something, but I'd just thought I'd point it
            out.)

            > That being said, I was startled when I saw this subbed
            > to realize how Rei and Sachiko were in on EVERYTHING. 
            > I had assumed that Touko merely went ahead with what
            > she wanted and they played 'make sure she doesn't go
            > too far'.  But no, she told them the entire plan and
            > they WENT ALONG WITH IT.  I mean, I love Touko and
            > all, but this was a dumb plan.  It's even clear she
            > mentioned throwing the beads, as Rei and Sachiko's
            > reactions show they knew it would happen. 
            > Both
            > Sachiko and Rei seem slightly OOC here - the smugness
            > they radiate not only doesn't suit them, it doesn't
            > fit with the fact that this was all Touko's plan.

            I'm reminded of something Erica said when I said something similar when
            8 first aired, something like: "It doesn't makes sense if you think of
            them as characters, but it does when you think of them as people." So
            I've been trying to think of them that way, and I think, like atua
            said, it was partly a power trip, on Rei and Sachiko's part, and partly
            it's the kind of thing that makes sense when you're in high school. As
            for why Yumi and Yoshino went along, well, since they were all so
            concerned about Shimako, I don't think they even thought to question
            how they were "helping" Shimako so long as they were.

            > The other thing that struck me was how much this
            > reminded me of the current blogosphere campaign to
            > 'out' prominent right-wing Republicans as gay. 

            I've never really been in favor of outing anybody. They've obviously
            made a choice and they're the ones that have to live with it. That
            said, there is something to say about exposing hypocrisy, though it
            still leaves a icky taste in my mouth in these cases.

            > Shimako was essentially being outed as Buddhist in
            > front of all the first-years, and while Sachiko and
            > Rei clearly wanted to show 'you think this is a huge
            > problem, but it's really not' it's somewhat callous
            > and insensitive on their parts.

            Well, it certainly wasn't the right way to go about it. Though,
            Shimako's and Noriko's taking it in stride certainly didn't give them
            impression that what they did was hurtful or wrong. So, there's no
            impetus to for Rei or Sachiko to not be so manipulative next time.
            Personally, I would have been royally pissed off, and I think Yumi
            kinda expected Shimako to be upset, but she just laughs it off.

            > Oh well, there's still lots of wonderful thigs here,
            > notably anything with Shimako and Noriko together, and
            > Touko's 'I played a great villain' line that had me
            > howling with laughter.  The wacky Scooby Doo ending
            > makes a little more sense now.

            Yes, I had forgotten the wide-eyed Noriko shots, followed by drool and
            nosebleeds. ;) What struck me this time through was Sachiko's and
            Yumi's relationship, especially after what happened in 11-13. It's
            certainly seems as if everything's OK here, though viewed after later
            events, does give it a bit of a dark cloud. I like how it looked like
            Yumi was going to confess to Sachiko, right before Touko arrived and
            the next scene they are sitting apart like nothing was going on.
            Clearly an indication to the viewer that something was about transpire.

            On Sep 30, 2004, at 1:10 PM, Adam Jones wrote:
            >> --Touko needs a spinoff of her own - maybe a Murder,
            >> --She Wrote type show...
            >
            > ITYM "Murder, She Experienced". Each week Touko gets murdered in a new
            > and unusual way! Tune in next week for the thrilling "Death of a
            > Thousand Cuts"!

            I would *SO* pay money to see this. ;)
          • atheniag
            ... I was rewatching this, and like Sege mentioned, remmbered my own warning to watch it as if the characters were people. It instantly became more
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 1, 2004
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, sean@c... wrote:

              > OK, I am a huge Touko fan, but I will admit this is not
              > her finest hour. She's not evil, in my opinion, she's
              > just pushy. She has an aura of 'I know how to fix
              > everything, so I will do it' to her that's both
              > irritating and endearing. But yeah, throwing the beads
              > was wrong.

              I was rewatching this, and like Sege mentioned, remmbered my own
              warning to watch it as if the characters were people. It instantly
              became more explicable.

              Touko is a spoiled, entitled 15 year old. insensitivity is not unusual
              or even unexpected in such a child.

              Say "spoiled brat" and it all makes sense.

              >
              > That being said, I was startled when I saw this subbed
              > to realize how Rei and Sachiko were in on EVERYTHING.
              > I had assumed that Touko merely went ahead with what
              > she wanted and they played 'make sure she doesn't go
              > too far'. But no, she told them the entire plan and
              > they WENT ALONG WITH IT. I mean, I love Touko and
              > all, but this was a dumb plan. It's even clear she
              > mentioned throwing the beads, as Rei and Sachiko's
              > reactions show they knew it would happen.


              Yes. And as we discussed last night, the road to hell is paved with
              good intentions. Neither Rei, nor Sachiko are good at reaching
              outwards. They are both introspective (and probably introverted, as
              well. In fact, if you look at the Yamayurikai *we* know, it seems that
              the leadership is typically natural introverts forced to be
              extroverted by circumstance. Now...who does that remind me
              of...hmmm...? ;-)

              So, Sachiko and rei want to help their friend, but are not the kind of
              people to walk up and say, "Say, Shimako, we know you have this
              secret, and we want you to tell everyone and get it off your
              shoulders." It wouldn't work in any case.

              So, like so MANY well-meaning friends, they do something unbelievably
              insensitive and crude to force the issue.


              >
              > I think, more than anything, this shows that the
              > current Yamayurikai (Sachiko, Rei, and Shimako) have
              > one huge, huge problem that runs through all three of
              > them - passivity.

              I'd argue introversion, and youth, but that's me.

              Shimako is slightly different -
              > she's not easily led by more assertive characters like
              > Rei and Sachiko are, but she still rarely takes the
              > initiative. This is, I think, one reason why Touko's
              > plan went through as is. I mean hell, even Eriko and
              > Sei would have agreed a quiet chat was best. Both
              > Sachiko and Rei seem slightly OOC here - the smugness
              > they radiate not only doesn't suit them, it doesn't
              > fit with the fact that this was all Touko's plan.

              The OOC part was, IMHO, SUPPOSED to be OOC. Sachiko and Rei were
              cracking UP as they looked over Noriko. They were "playing Rosa" and
              what is the point of a little power if you cant flaunt it? :-)

              I don't think they meant anything by it. Particularly Rei - she's been
              the subordinate of a woman who barely talks to her for a two years...I
              think she was just feeling her oats a little.


              I
              >
              > The other thing that struck me was how much this
              > reminded me of the current blogosphere campaign to
              > 'out' prominent right-wing Republicans as gay.
              > Shimako was essentially being outed as Buddhist in
              > front of all the first-years, and while Sachiko and
              > Rei clearly wanted to show 'you think this is a huge
              > problem, but it's really not' it's somewhat callous
              > and insensitive on their parts.

              Yes. But it happens - all the time. People think its the "right thing
              to do."


              > --Touko needs a spinoff of her own - maybe a Murder,
              > --She Wrote type show...

              The funy thing was, I thought of the "Murdered, She Was..." idea too -
              every week, Touko dies a different horrible death. LOL

              I have to admit, watching this the second time around made me dislike
              her *less.* Because it was that much more obvious how young and
              clueless she is. (I watched this on top of 13 raw, again, so was able
              to see how completely socially retarded she was - she's *clearly* an
              only child of indulgent parents. )

              Cheers,

              Erica
            • atheniag
              ... That s how I see it. ... I m sticking with feeling her oats. She s used to being good, and kind and quiet. Here was a teeny weeny chance for her to play
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 1, 2004
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                --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "atua101" <atua@i...> wrote:
                > --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, sean@c... wrote:
                > > I think, more than anything, this shows that the

                > The only explanation I can give is that they were on a bit of a power
                > trip from being newly made Rosas, and that Sachiko is trying to live
                > up to Youko's name by forcing the situation. Not that Youko would
                > *ever* have been so clumsy, heavy handed and overly melodramatic about
                > it.

                That's how I see it.


                > What I don't understand is why Rei went along with it, and why
                > Yoshino let Rei get away with Touko's plan, since there's no love lost
                > between Yoshino & Touko?

                I'm sticking with feeling her oats. She's used to being good, and kind
                and quiet. Here was a teeny weeny chance for her to play "Look I'm
                Rosa Foetida" and she did, with a smirk on her face the whole time.

                Once again, I'm hoping that the novel has some insight into this - it
                may be that Rei and Sachiko knew that this was what they had to do,
                for some reason we aren't aware of, in the anime.


                > > Oh well, there's still lots of wonderful thigs here,
                > > notably anything with Shimako and Noriko together, and
                > > Touko's 'I played a great villain' line that had me
                > > howling with laughter. The wacky Scooby Doo ending
                > > makes a little more sense now.
                >
                > The villain line had me laughing out loud, it was so transparently
                > evil. :)

                It was actually quite cute, considering that of course, she *is* the
                "evil" character and, like so many truly hurtful selfish people, has
                no idea that she is either, but thinks she's "helping" other people.
                Can't tell you how much damage I've seen people like that do...

                Cheers,

                Erica
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