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Re: Shoujo-ai incest

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  • eleloi@yahoo.com
    ... According to my biology proffesor... it s mostly considered anti-social. Plus a few diseases or syndromes will be intensified if both parents carry
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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      --- In Yuricon@y..., kethla@h... wrote:

      > I guess if a government trusts its
      > populace to be aware and responsible when it comes to inbreeding and
      > possible abuse issues, then there's really no reason to bar even
      > direct siblings from marrying.

      According to my biology proffesor... it's mostly considered
      "anti-social." Plus a few diseases or syndromes will be intensified
      if both parents carry close to the same genetic make-up. Hmm... so,
      genetically... I think it boils down biologically to: can date your
      relatives, even though it's considered "anti-social" but you cannot
      have children with them.

      > > I can't even think of dating my sisters' friends.
      >
      > Since I'm 20 and my brother's friends are 17, it would feel like
      > robbing the cradle. In six years or so, the age difference won't
      > feel as much, but I would still be very, very hesitant.

      I went out to a theme park with my sister and my ex-boyfriend. They
      spent the entire time together, playing kissy face... it was kind of
      disturbing to watch. My other three friends agreed.

      I have a very strange rule in my head. I don't want to know what a
      potential brother-in-law looks like when he orgasms. Maybe it's just
      me...

      --lel
    • Jude McLaughlin
      ... In this culture. But then, one usually doesn t expect bio types to think in terms of anthropology. :) (The only reason I think about is that I keep
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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        --- In Yuricon@y..., eleloi@y... wrote:
        > According to my biology proffesor... it's mostly considered
        > "anti-social."

        In this culture. But then, one usually doesn't expect bio types to
        think in terms of anthropology. :) (The only reason I think about is
        that I keep getting notified when I say anything really
        Western-centric -- the fruits of being involved with an
        anthropologist.)

        > Plus a few diseases or syndromes will be intensified
        > if both parents carry close to the same genetic make-up. Hmm... so,
        > genetically... I think it boils down biologically to: can date your
        > relatives, even though it's considered "anti-social" but you cannot
        > have children with them.

        There is a general mammalian (and avian, I believe) incest taboo,
        apparently quite deeply ingrained. Studies have shown that certain
        organisms will definitely prefer to mate with individuals with whom
        they were not raised, despite the other deeply ingrained tendency to
        mate with those who are most similar to you (thus enhancing your own
        genes). Apparently the taboo is psychological in that it extends only
        to those siblings raised together -- if two siblings are raised apart,
        it doesn't exist. (Thus my SO's exclamations of annoyance during
        Angel Sanctuary: "Oh, right, make him stay away so that he gets NONE
        of the incest taboo ingrained!")

        This is not to say that sufficient fucked-uppedness won't overwhelm
        this fundamental taboo (as evidenced by the fact that one of my first
        genetic counseling cases was an evaluation of a child who had a
        certain quite rare single-gene genetic disease, just like his older
        sister -- and both were the products of a brother-sister mating -- my
        only thought was, "Where was Social Services?")

        In general, consanguinity (close relatives mating) tends to increase
        the frequency of recessive genetic diseases by making it far more
        likely that the two people mating are carrying a nasty recessive. In
        most cases, it is not an adaptive behavior, although there may be
        situations where it becomes adaptive (which may result in the
        development of a higher incidence of a recessive in a population, a la
        the various diseases associated with preventing malaria in tropical
        regions).

        This public service announcement brought to you by far too many years
        in graduate school. We now return you to your usual programs.

        Jude
      • kethla@hotmail.com
        ... so, ... your ... cannot ... I love how this discussion is so intellectual. ^_^ Alas, I feel the need to add a sci-fi/phantasy addendum. This (plus the
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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          >
          > > Plus a few diseases or syndromes will be intensified
          > > if both parents carry close to the same genetic make-up. Hmm...
          so,
          > > genetically... I think it boils down biologically to: can date
          your
          > > relatives, even though it's considered "anti-social" but you
          cannot
          > > have children with them.
          >

          I love how this discussion is so intellectual. ^_^ Alas, I feel the
          need to add a sci-fi/phantasy addendum. This (plus the other running
          thread about sexuality labeling) brought to my mind a Ursula Guin's
          book "The Left Hand of Darkness". In this book an African-American*
          human interacts with a mutated species of human that have no definite
          sex except for short intervals each month. Basically, when two of
          them go into heat at the same time, one will become a male and the
          other will become a female. (So no homosexuals exist, or maybe
          they're ALL homosexuals) Due to the nameless hero's set sexuality he
          becomes a sexual freak on the planet and the population assumes he's
          constantly horny. Anyway, their laws state that you can marry your
          blood sibling until your first born child, then you have to divorce
          and one of you has to leave the clan (or something).

          Anyway, I thought it was interesting that Guin chose male pronouns
          because she felt they're more gender neutral (and she didn't want to
          use it, because they're still sexual creatures). I wonder if she
          would have used the gender neutral pronouns like "em" or "eir" if she
          had written the book in modern times? (The pronouns still confuse
          the heck out of me, I keep thinking I'm reading a foreign language.)
          After reading that book I also started to notice how rarely female
          pronouns are used in examples where gender doesn't matter. I'm
          slightly shocked everytime I read an example where it's "if she were
          to do blah" instead of "if he were to do blah". Is it because as
          pronouns go, male pronouns are still seen as more gender neutral?

          This might be old news to you, but I've never taken a feminist course
          in my life. I've never picked up and read a feminist or gender
          studies book. (Maybe that's why I find this kind of interesting ...
          ignorance.)

          *Noted because this is the only instance I can think of where I've
          seen an Afrian American play THE lead role in a sci-fi/phantasy book.

          ~Heather (Wonders if she marries a bisexual man, will she still be in
          a queer relationship? Hmm....)
        • Katerina E.
          ... mythology would ... I ve always found this to be interesting. I don t know if most people in the US realize that Egypt was a MATRILINEAL monarchy, meaning
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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            --- In Yuricon@y..., "Johann Chua" <fuuma@e...> wrote:
            > >direct siblings from marrying.
            >
            > Only example of siblings marrying I can think of outside of
            mythology would
            > be Ancient Egyptian royal families--dunno if commoners could.

            I've always found this to be interesting. I don't know if most
            people in the US realize that Egypt was a MATRILINEAL monarchy,
            meaning that the pharoah became pharoah by marrying the eldest
            daughter or niece of the previous pharoah. This led to ALOT of
            brother-sister pairings in the Egyptian monarchy. In the film "The
            Ten Commandments" (made by conservative Christian Cecil B. DeMille,
            and starring conservative Christian Charleton Heston) they sort of
            gloss over this little tidbit, that Neferteri (not Nefertiti, wife of
            Akhenaton and mother of Tutenkamun) is the daughter of pharoah Seti,
            and sister of Ramses and the adopted Moses, one of whom she will be
            betrothed to (eventually Ramses, when Moses is discovered to be a
            Hebrew, and refuses to deny his birthright). Of course, it is from
            this fact about the Egyptians that Judaism then proscribed that
            incest was wrong and evil, since most of the laws of the Jews were to
            delineate why they were God's Chosen People, and their neighbours
            weren't (that's also how provisions about homosexuality,
            transgendered priests, and mixed-fiber clothing got into the laws).

            Katya
          • Medea Joy
            ... Right-- patriarchy combined with matrilinear inheritance is bound to lead to relatives marrying. This is because the men want to inherit their power to
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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              "Katerina E." wrote:
              > > Only example of siblings marrying I can think of outside of
              > mythology would
              > > be Ancient Egyptian royal families--dunno if commoners could.
              >
              > I've always found this to be interesting. I don't know if most
              > people in the US realize that Egypt was a MATRILINEAL monarchy,
              > meaning that the pharoah became pharoah by marrying the eldest
              > daughter or niece of the previous pharoah. This led to ALOT of
              > brother-sister pairings in the Egyptian monarchy.

              Right-- patriarchy combined with matrilinear inheritance is bound to
              lead to relatives marrying. This is because the men want to inherit
              their power to their male descendants, but cannot do so directly-- it
              goes through the female line. So, they have to make their sons marry
              their nieces... IIRC, in many African tribes, when you marry you still
              remain in your birth family, so in a matrilinear clan, the father is not
              considered to be in the same family/clan as his children: family goes
              exclusively through the female line. In the case of the Ashanti, which
              are both patriarchial and matrilinear, fathers want to pass on their
              name to their grandchildren, so they marry the daughters of their
              sisters to their sons; they have the power over their sisters' daughters
              because they're the head of that family. On the other hand, they're NOT
              the head of the family their own sons belong to-- so what do they do?
              They make kind of a silent agreement with the brother of their wife
              who's the head of the family their son belongs to, because his wife will
              often be related to the original father, i.e. be in the same family;
              then the father makes the son of the other clanhead marry a niece of the
              other clanhead, so that the other clanhead can pass *his* name on. It's
              kinda cross-over. Which is why cousin marriage is very frequent in that culture.

              It's been some time since I've done a talk about this in class, so I
              won't take responsibility for the exact details. ;-)

              . medea joy
            • Althea K.
              ... The leopard twins in Escaflowne have a pretty shoujo-ai scene (although they are both in love with a man... still, crawling over your sister and basically
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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                >From: kethla@...
                >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [Yuricon] Shoujo-ai incest
                >Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 04:47:18 -0000
                >
                >

                >
                >This is the first case of shoujo-ai incest- that I know of- that
                >isn't a Clamp story. (CCS and Suki Dakara Suki)
                >

                The leopard twins in Escaflowne have a pretty shoujo-ai scene (although they
                are both in love with a man... still, crawling over your sister and
                basically asking to kiss her seems pretty shoujo-ai to me.). That's all I
                can bring to mind right now (uh, other than my own incestuous twin sisters
                from a story I'm writing with a friend.. >.> <.< >.>).

                >~Heather


                -Althea K. (my apologies if this pair has already been mentioned: my online
                service crapped out for a while and I still haven't slogged through all the
                posts. sixty-two more to go. Woot.)

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              • Jude McLaughlin
                ... Check out Octavia Butler s books -- all her characters are African- American, despite the way they are depicted on the covers (as my partner says, it says
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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                  --- In Yuricon@y..., kethla@h... wrote:
                  > *Noted because this is the only instance I can think of where I've
                  > seen an Afrian American play THE lead role in a sci-fi/phantasy book.

                  Check out Octavia Butler's books -- all her characters are African-
                  American, despite the way they are depicted on the covers (as my
                  partner says, it says something about the American publishing industry
                  that they can't seem to put African-American women on the covers).
                  LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea books apparently have a plethora of dark-
                  skinned characters as well (also despite covers). And Melissa Scott's
                  _Night Sky Mine_ has an African-American woman on the cover, although
                  my SO cannot recall if the lead character was described as such. Those
                  are the ones that occur to my SO off the top of her head (she was
                  reading over my shoulder and so provided the information.)

                  Jude
                • heron-blue Tira
                  ... Until a few months ago, I thought that Octavia Butler was the only African American Female sci-fi writer. But there s a new woman who s written two really
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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                    --- Jude McLaughlin <dziwozony@...> wrote:
                    > --- In Yuricon@y..., kethla@h... wrote:
                    > > *Noted because this is the only instance I can
                    > think of where I've
                    > > seen an Afrian American play THE lead role in a
                    > sci-fi/phantasy book.
                    >
                    > Check out Octavia Butler's books -- all her
                    > characters are African-
                    > American, despite the way they are depicted on the
                    > covers (as my
                    > partner says, it says something about the American
                    > publishing industry
                    > that they can't seem to put African-American women
                    > on the covers).
                    > LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea books apparently have a
                    > plethora of dark-
                    > skinned characters as well (also despite covers).
                    > And Melissa Scott's
                    > _Night Sky Mine_ has an African-American woman on
                    > the cover, although
                    > my SO cannot recall if the lead character was
                    > described as such. Those
                    > are the ones that occur to my SO off the top of her
                    > head (she was
                    > reading over my shoulder and so provided the
                    > information.)

                    Until a few months ago, I thought that Octavia Butler
                    was the only African American Female sci-fi writer.
                    But there's a new woman who's written two really good
                    books... her name's Nalo Hopkinson, and one of the
                    books is called "Midnight Robber" (I'm blanking on the
                    other one). They're both really good.

                    I think the characters in "Night Sky Mine" were Arab
                    or Southeast Asian, but I'm not sure about that. It's
                    been a while since I read the book.

                    ~~Tira

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                  • Althea K.
                    ... I ve, uh, actually had crushes on friends of my brother (he s three years older than I am, but at least one of the friends was my age, not his) more than
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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                      >From: eleloi@...
                      >Reply-To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: Yuricon@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [Yuricon] Re: Shoujo-ai incest
                      >Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 17:17:04 -0000
                      >
                      >--- In Yuricon@y..., kethla@h... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > > > I can't even think of dating my sisters' friends.
                      > >

                      I've, uh, actually had crushes on friends of my brother (he's three years
                      older than I am, but at least one of the friends was my age, not his) more
                      than once.. ^-^' What? He's got some pretty cute friends.


                      > > Since I'm 20 and my brother's friends are 17, it would feel like
                      > > robbing the cradle. In six years or so, the age difference won't
                      > > feel as much, but I would still be very, very hesitant.
                      >
                      >I went out to a theme park with my sister and my ex-boyfriend. They
                      >spent the entire time together, playing kissy face... it was kind of
                      >disturbing to watch. My other three friends agreed.
                      >

                      Yeah, that sounds like a pretty uncomfortable situation... But, damn, it's
                      been kind of tempting to go after some of my brother's exes... He dates some
                      *cute* girls! One in particular I had a crush on... She was more
                      affectionate to me than he ever was. She used to hug me every single time
                      she saw me ^=^ And she was *adorable*. They're still friends, but I haven't
                      seen her in a long time.. *sigh* Probably just as well...


                      >I have a very strange rule in my head. I don't want to know what a
                      >potential brother-in-law looks like when he orgasms. Maybe it's just
                      >me...
                      >

                      *cringe* That sounds a pretty reasonable rule to me. Think I'll keep that
                      one under my hat..

                      >--lel
                      >


                      -Althea K.

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                    • kage shinrou
                      I m kinda curious how many of you are anthropology majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is getting rather in depth. kage-kun:who has an
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 3, 2001
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                        I'm kinda curious how many of you are anthropology
                        majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is getting rather in
                        depth.

                        kage-kun:who has an anthropology final in one week, and is getting lecture
                        deja-vu reading this thread
                        "ookami wa ookami"



                        >From: Medea Joy <s_m_j@...>

                        >It's been some time since I've done a talk about this in class, so I
                        >won't take responsibility for the exact details. ;-)
                        >
                        >. medea joy


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                      • Raven Stormbringer
                        I took Honors Socio-Anthropology back in college... that count? Raven --who s studied more topics than most Jeopardy contestants ;p ... =====
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                          I took Honors Socio-Anthropology back in college... that
                          count?

                          Raven
                          --who's studied more topics than most Jeopardy contestants
                          ;p
                          --- kage shinrou <nineofnine@...> wrote:
                          > I'm kinda curious how many of you are anthropology
                          > majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is
                          > getting rather in
                          > depth.
                          >
                          > kage-kun:who has an anthropology final in one week, and
                          > is getting lecture
                          > deja-vu reading this thread
                          > "ookami wa ookami"
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > >From: Medea Joy <s_m_j@...>
                          >
                          > >It's been some time since I've done a talk about this in
                          > class, so I
                          > >won't take responsibility for the exact details. ;-)
                          > >
                          > >. medea joy
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >


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                          Jinsei ha yama ari, tani ari.
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                        • Erica Friedman
                          ... Comparative Literature major, specializing in Early Medieval Lit. Hence the interest in comparative mythologies. Master s in Information and Library
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                            >From: "kage shinrou" <nineofnine@...>

                            >I'm kinda curious how many of you are anthropology
                            >majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is getting rather in
                            >depth.

                            Comparative Literature major, specializing in Early Medieval Lit. Hence the
                            interest in comparative mythologies. Master's in Information and Library
                            Science - hence the pedantic tone. LOL


                            Cheers,

                            Erica

                            AniLesboCon 2001 - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                            http://anilesbocon.shoujoai.com/

                            "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                            The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                            Because fanfic does not have to suck

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                          • Erica Friedman
                            ... I read Midnight Robber and despite the fact tat I thought the plot trite, I loved the use of language dialects and creoles. I emailed Ms. Hopkinson, who
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                              >From: heron-blue Tira <tiratrewyn@...>
                              >Until a few months ago, I thought that Octavia Butler
                              >was the only African American Female sci-fi writer.
                              >But there's a new woman who's written two really good
                              >books... her name's Nalo Hopkinson, and one of the
                              >books is called "Midnight Robber" (I'm blanking on the
                              >other one). They're both really good.

                              I read Midnight Robber and despite the fact tat I thought the plot trite, I
                              loved the use of language dialects and creoles. I emailed Ms. Hopkinson, who
                              responded right away with a nice note of thanks.



                              Cheers,

                              Erica

                              AniLesboCon 2001 - "For real women who like their women...animated."
                              http://anilesbocon.shoujoai.com/

                              "World Shaking" Fanfic - http://www.worldshaking.net
                              The Fanfic Revolution - http://www.fanficrevolution.org

                              Because fanfic does not have to suck


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                            • Trixterpriest@aol.com
                              ... THANK you Jude! I racked my brain forever yesterday trying to remember Octavia s last name so I could look up the book names ;) (In fact, I even had her
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                                > > *Noted because this is the only instance I can think of where I've
                                > > seen an Afrian American play THE lead role in a sci-fi/phantasy book.
                                >
                                > Check out Octavia Butler's books -- all her characters are African-
                                > American, despite the way they are depicted on the covers (as my


                                THANK you Jude! I racked my brain forever yesterday trying to remember Octavia's last name so I could look up the book names ;) (In fact, I even had her first name wrong...I was think Olivia for some reason o.0~) One of her trilogies is one of my favs =^.^= The one where the alien race comes and assimulates humans into their species ;) It was interesting because in that alien race there were males and females however neither one or both of them together could reproduce. Each sex had different ingrediants but neither one could bake the cake so to speak ;p They had a third sex that acted as a catalyst....

                                Kun
                                ----'-,-{@
                              • Katerina E.
                                ... rather in ... My BS was in Social Studies Education (that would make me a teacher), and I had a minor in History, so that s the angle that I am coming
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                                  --- In Yuricon@y..., "kage shinrou" <nineofnine@h...> wrote:
                                  > I'm kinda curious how many of you are anthropology
                                  > majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is getting
                                  rather in
                                  > depth.

                                  My BS was in Social Studies Education (that would make me a teacher),
                                  and I had a minor in History, so that's the angle that I am coming
                                  from.

                                  Katya
                                • Kathryn Williams
                                  ... I majored in Arts and graduated in Landscape, Protraite and Mural Arts. Now teach from time to time all over the place (if that really counts) ja Kat
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                                    > --- In Yuricon@y..., "kage shinrou" <nineofnine@h...> wrote:
                                    > > I'm kinda curious how many of you are anthropology
                                    > > majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is getting
                                    > rather in
                                    > > depth.

                                    I majored in Arts and graduated in Landscape, Protraite and Mural Arts. Now
                                    teach from time to time all over the place (if that really counts)

                                    ja

                                    Kat
                                  • Jude McLaughlin
                                    ... I graduated with a BA in Biology and an MS (actually All-But-Dissertation) in Human Genetics (and make my living writing software manuals, go figure), but
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 4, 2001
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                                      --- In Yuricon@y..., "kage shinrou" <nineofnine@h...> wrote:
                                      > I'm kinda curious how many of you are anthropology
                                      > majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is getting
                                      > rather in depth.

                                      I graduated with a BA in Biology and an MS (actually
                                      All-But-Dissertation) in Human Genetics (and make my living writing
                                      software manuals, go figure), but my sweetie has a BA in English and
                                      Anthropology, an MA in Anthropology and Women's Studies, and is
                                      working on her PhD in Anthropology, and thus there is a great deal of
                                      osmosis happening. (For instance, she knows a great deal more about
                                      genetics than her classmates.) :)

                                      Jude
                                    • Minionmancer@aol.com
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 5, 2001
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                                        <Until a few months ago, I thought that Octavia Butler
                                        was the only African American Female sci-fi writer.
                                        But there's a new woman who's written two really good
                                        books... her name's Nalo Hopkinson, and one of the
                                        books is called "Midnight Robber" (I'm blanking on the
                                        other one). They're both really good.

                                        I read "Midnight Robber", it was quite good, although it took me a long time to get used to the Creole syntax and jargon. I didn't know Hopkinson wrote a second book.
                                      • Minionmancer@aol.com
                                        ... Bioengineering major, specializing in Molecular Biology/Genetics. I took several literature courses for my non-technical electives. I haven t checked my
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 5, 2001
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                                          In a message dated Tue, 4 Dec 2001 9:28:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Erica Friedman" <e.l.f.@...> writes:

                                          > >From: "kage shinrou" <nineofnine@...>
                                          >
                                          > >I'm kinda curious how many of you are anthropology
                                          > >majors/teachers/enthusiasts because this discussion is getting rather in
                                          > >depth.
                                          >
                                          > Comparative Literature major, specializing in Early Medieval Lit. Hence the
                                          > interest in comparative mythologies. Master's in Information and Library
                                          > Science - hence the pedantic tone. LOL
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          >
                                          > Erica

                                          Bioengineering major, specializing in Molecular Biology/Genetics. I took several literature courses for my non-technical electives. I haven't checked my email in days and was quite pleasd to find an indepth-discussion on social reasons for inbreeding and the danger of increasing the frequency of expression of the recessive phenotype. Intelligent, female, and otaku - yay!
                                        • katyae0211
                                          ... long time to get used to the Creole syntax and jargon. I didn t know Hopkinson wrote a second book. As a result of a past-life experience that I had
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 5, 2001
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                                            --- In Yuricon@y..., Minionmancer@a... wrote:
                                            > <Until a few months ago, I thought that Octavia Butler
                                            > was the only African American Female sci-fi writer.
                                            > But there's a new woman who's written two really good
                                            > books... her name's Nalo Hopkinson, and one of the
                                            > books is called "Midnight Robber" (I'm blanking on the
                                            > other one). They're both really good.
                                            >
                                            > I read "Midnight Robber", it was quite good, although it took me a
                                            long time to get used to the Creole syntax and jargon. I didn't know
                                            Hopkinson wrote a second book.

                                            As a result of a past-life experience that I had recently, I am
                                            reading a book from 1966 called "Wide Sargasso Sea", which has a
                                            fairly heavy use of Creole dialect. I'm not doing too badly with it,
                                            since I have read alot of historical fiction and alternate history
                                            that deals with the Southern U.S./Confederate States of America, and
                                            between the heavy use of Creole in 19th century New Orleans, and the
                                            different dialects amongst the slave populations throughout the
                                            region, I have managed to adapt to reading these dialects. They can
                                            certainly be difficult, though, when one is not used to
                                            seeing/reading them.

                                            Katya
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