Re: [Yuricon] Incest or lesbiana: What the public wants.
- On May 2, 2004, at 8:52 PM, Jen wrote:
> So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a tabooAs far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West
> and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
> still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
Virginia. ;) </Joke> Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous
desire of its lead as a dramatic device, to add tension and interest in
what would probably be an otherwise tensionless premise. Young man gets
to know his much younger sister after a long separation. Not to say
that this premise can't be done exceedingly well on its own, but
without the hook it might have been a harder sell. Frankly, I don't
think you'll find an explicit incestuous relationships anywhere outside
of hentai, so Koi Kaze will string us along with Koushirou's struggle
with temptation so we keep watching and after 13 episodes it will
either have a conventional happy ending or Koushirou will end up as
tragic object lesson in why you shouldn't lust after your sister, you
Anyway, the answer to your question, is yes, the mainstream, Japanese
and American, is still uncomfortable with the idea of gay lead
characters. Which is why Yuricon exists to push, prod and finally drag
kicking and screaming the mainstream to accept the notion that gays and
lesbians are *gasp* people too and not just plot devices or comic
relief, etc. It won't happen overnight, this kind of social attitude
adjustment never does, hence the taking over the world part of the
Yuricon mission, because it's far easier to institute positive change
under the heel of a jackboot. ;)
> (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. NoI don't think any of my hentai is in a box, because everyone knows I'm
> wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
> said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)
a dirty old man, so why hide it?
> I know of a few anime with *implied* yuri-ness like Utena andAnd so goes the history of women, black, hispanic, asian characters in
> the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
> lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
> back of the bus as secondary characters:
mainstream media (at least in the US) as well. Even now, in 2004, the
diversity of minority characters, ethnically, culturally or sexually,
has never been greater, but there is still a long, long ways to go.
Changes in social attitudes is evolutionary, meaning that it takes
generations (I think Foucault said something like that in his
maddeningly obtuse "The Order of Things", but I'm just guessing,
because it was maddeningly obtuse. ;) and quite a bit of nagging from
activists. As an example the general attitude toward women has changed
significantly since the 1950's in this country, but there is still no
I can't really speak about the Japanese media, I wouldn't even know
where to begin. Maybe, with the fact that the US is a hodgepodge of
cultures and ethnicities, and the Japanese are fairly homogenous
ethnically and don't have the same concept of minority as we do, but
that's about the extent of my arguments, I haven't read enough to
venture forward from there.
> While there may indeed be genuine lesbian anime out there, IWell, I think you can argue that most relationship fall into either the
> sure don't know of any. The only lead anime lesbians I know
> of are only lesbians because *I* say they are. All you ever
> see on the screen are the cliche lines of "true friendship"
> and "soulmates" and so on. Yawn.
implicit or explicit categories. And how many of the popular straight
anime romances are really implicit, but just accepted as explicit?
Where they don't tell you outright two people are going to end up
together, they just nudge and wink and point you in that direction. All
of the harem anime have implicit relationships, you just know that SPLB
is going to end up with one of the girls, but you never see them
> Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianimeI would argue that incest has been in the "big time" since Sophocles.
> on TV? Incest has made the leap to the big time... are lesbian
> tales still confined to the world of doujinshi?
And no lesbian tales are not confined to doujinshi. Erica will correct
me on this, but Yuri Shimai and Yuri Tengoku are not doujinshi, I don't
know how popular or successful they are, but they are commercial
ventures, not fan publications as far as I know. And Rica Takashima,
Eriko Tadeno, and Yamaji Ebine are professional lesbian mangaka. So
while the mainstream is not flooded with yuri stories, they do exist
> The UTENA movie notwithstanding, is there any genuine lesbianWell, I've been thinking about you criteria (out and proud and the
> anime out there, and I just don't know it (thus making this
> entire post meaningless)? Or is the UTENA movie only praised
> so much because it's the *only* anime out there where the lead
> character's a lesbian? (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
lead) and I can't think of any really at the moment, but there might be
one or two on The List, I'm just too lazy to check right now, and I'm
not sure that even the Utena movie meets that criteria.
Let the corrections and counter arguments begin. ;)
- whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
said something :P
Excuse the traffic...
--- Simon Catterall <simoncatterall@...>
I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
you'll see plenty. ;)
And it's not just groping women either :D
Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you
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- At 11:09 AM 5/4/2004 +1200, you wrote:
>whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese alreadyI don't mind being backed up when I'm right. Its being backed up OVER when
>said something :P
>Excuse the traffic...
I'm wrong that hurts.
You have been selected for a secret mission.
>From: "Jen" <puni@...>I think you're mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have
>So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
>and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
>still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
culture that doesn't have good lines of communication to deal with taboo
issues. That's why so many lesbians exist in anime, while almost none
actually act or look like actual lesbians.
Incest isn't acceptable now in Japan, any more than it has ever been - the
anime exists to deal with issues of fantasized incestual thoughts, rather
than to represent something that is accepted.
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