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Re: [Yuricon] Incest or lesbiana: What the public wants.

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  • Chalcahuite
    ... As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West Virginia. ;) Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous desire of its lead as a
    Message 1 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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      On May 2, 2004, at 8:52 PM, Jen wrote:
      > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
      > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
      > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
      > leads?

      As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West
      Virginia. ;) </Joke> Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous
      desire of its lead as a dramatic device, to add tension and interest in
      what would probably be an otherwise tensionless premise. Young man gets
      to know his much younger sister after a long separation. Not to say
      that this premise can't be done exceedingly well on its own, but
      without the hook it might have been a harder sell. Frankly, I don't
      think you'll find an explicit incestuous relationships anywhere outside
      of hentai, so Koi Kaze will string us along with Koushirou's struggle
      with temptation so we keep watching and after 13 episodes it will
      either have a conventional happy ending or Koushirou will end up as
      tragic object lesson in why you shouldn't lust after your sister, you
      freak.

      Anyway, the answer to your question, is yes, the mainstream, Japanese
      and American, is still uncomfortable with the idea of gay lead
      characters. Which is why Yuricon exists to push, prod and finally drag
      kicking and screaming the mainstream to accept the notion that gays and
      lesbians are *gasp* people too and not just plot devices or comic
      relief, etc. It won't happen overnight, this kind of social attitude
      adjustment never does, hence the taking over the world part of the
      Yuricon mission, because it's far easier to institute positive change
      under the heel of a jackboot. ;)

      > (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
      > wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
      > said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)

      I don't think any of my hentai is in a box, because everyone knows I'm
      a dirty old man, so why hide it?

      > I know of a few anime with *implied* yuri-ness like Utena and
      > the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
      > lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
      > back of the bus as secondary characters:

      And so goes the history of women, black, hispanic, asian characters in
      mainstream media (at least in the US) as well. Even now, in 2004, the
      diversity of minority characters, ethnically, culturally or sexually,
      has never been greater, but there is still a long, long ways to go.
      Changes in social attitudes is evolutionary, meaning that it takes
      generations (I think Foucault said something like that in his
      maddeningly obtuse "The Order of Things", but I'm just guessing,
      because it was maddeningly obtuse. ;) and quite a bit of nagging from
      activists. As an example the general attitude toward women has changed
      significantly since the 1950's in this country, but there is still no
      true parity.
      I can't really speak about the Japanese media, I wouldn't even know
      where to begin. Maybe, with the fact that the US is a hodgepodge of
      cultures and ethnicities, and the Japanese are fairly homogenous
      ethnically and don't have the same concept of minority as we do, but
      that's about the extent of my arguments, I haven't read enough to
      venture forward from there.

      > While there may indeed be genuine lesbian anime out there, I
      > sure don't know of any. The only lead anime lesbians I know
      > of are only lesbians because *I* say they are. All you ever
      > see on the screen are the cliche lines of "true friendship"
      > and "soulmates" and so on. Yawn.

      Well, I think you can argue that most relationship fall into either the
      implicit or explicit categories. And how many of the popular straight
      anime romances are really implicit, but just accepted as explicit?
      Where they don't tell you outright two people are going to end up
      together, they just nudge and wink and point you in that direction. All
      of the harem anime have implicit relationships, you just know that SPLB
      is going to end up with one of the girls, but you never see them
      hooking up.

      > Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
      > on TV? Incest has made the leap to the big time... are lesbian
      > tales still confined to the world of doujinshi?

      I would argue that incest has been in the "big time" since Sophocles.
      And no lesbian tales are not confined to doujinshi. Erica will correct
      me on this, but Yuri Shimai and Yuri Tengoku are not doujinshi, I don't
      know how popular or successful they are, but they are commercial
      ventures, not fan publications as far as I know. And Rica Takashima,
      Eriko Tadeno, and Yamaji Ebine are professional lesbian mangaka. So
      while the mainstream is not flooded with yuri stories, they do exist
      outside doujinshi.

      > The UTENA movie notwithstanding, is there any genuine lesbian
      > anime out there, and I just don't know it (thus making this
      > entire post meaningless)? Or is the UTENA movie only praised
      > so much because it's the *only* anime out there where the lead
      > character's a lesbian? (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
      > yet!)

      Well, I've been thinking about you criteria (out and proud and the
      lead) and I can't think of any really at the moment, but there might be
      one or two on The List, I'm just too lazy to check right now, and I'm
      not sure that even the Utena movie meets that criteria.

      -==-
      Serge
      Let the corrections and counter arguments begin. ;)
    • donnaneely
      ... Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical...... why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture should have a more or less tolerant attitude to
      Message 2 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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        --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:
        > Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and
        > his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.

        > http://www.jascii.net/newanime/season.php#koikaze

        > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
        > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
        > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
        > leads?
        >


        Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical......

        why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture
        should have a more or less tolerant attitude to "taboos" just because
        they have animation/manga as vibrant lucrative industries?

        secondly, isnt it in fact because they are lucrative and mainstream
        that they do not represent all facets of relationships and humanity?
        Just like television and movies just about anywhere in the world. I
        remember with Fire came out in India there were riots - and that was
        a movie that folks could easily avoid. There is some unspoken
        assumption on the part of the public that broadcasts have tighter
        limitations then say books. I suspect there is a dissertation in
        there but I wont bother.

        As for Koi Kaze which I am watching devotedly:

        the reviews i have read by your run of the mill male otaku are
        woefully inadequate. i realize the subject makes them, and others,
        jumpy but that is EXACTLY the material that the story is
        examining. "Taboo" feelings and how one might struggle with them.
        From both perspectives I might add the brother's and sister's

        another comment, lots and lots of anime has very large sized men with
        very petite sized women - even if those women are adult. i agree that
        the sister is drawn in a fashion that makes her look 10 instead of 14-
        15 and in high school, but this is not unique to Koi Kaze in my
        experience. so why would that be more of a sin in Koi Kaze?

        I do not for a minute believe that these two characters will actually
        be sexual with one another......but they will definitely live through
        the angst and agonies of being attracted to someone "taboo". I
        suspect that these are the struggles that I am identifying with in
        the series. Something just feels familiar there.

        beyond that - again I downloaded this show because I heard songs from
        the credits on the RONDO website and fell in love with the music.
        Following the music seems to be exposing me to quite a wide variety
        of shows. <grin>

        donnaneely
      • Simon Catterall
        I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
        Message 3 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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          I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
          horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
          time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
          check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
          you'll see plenty. ;)
          And it's not just groping women either :D
          neh

          Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you do?

          Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
          http://au.movies.yahoo.com
        • Simon Catterall
          whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already said something :P hehe Excuse the traffic... ... I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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            whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
            said something :P
            hehe
            Excuse the traffic...

            --- Simon Catterall <simoncatterall@...>
            wrote:
            ---------------------------------
            I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
            horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
            time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
            check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
            you'll see plenty. ;)
            And it's not just groping women either :D
            neh

            Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you
            do?

            Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
            http://au.movies.yahoo.com

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          • Reese
            ... I don t mind being backed up when I m right. Its being backed up OVER when I m wrong that hurts. owwie.... Knobbies.... You have been selected for a
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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              At 11:09 AM 5/4/2004 +1200, you wrote:
              >whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
              >said something :P
              >hehe
              >Excuse the traffic...

              I don't mind being backed up when I'm right. Its being backed up OVER when
              I'm wrong that hurts.

              owwie.... Knobbies....















              You have been selected for a secret mission.
            • Erica Friedman
              ... I think you re mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
              Message 6 of 13 , May 4, 2004
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                >From: "Jen" <puni@...>

                >So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                >and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                >still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                >leads?

                I think you're mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have
                never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
                culture that doesn't have good lines of communication to deal with taboo
                issues. That's why so many lesbians exist in anime, while almost none
                actually act or look like actual lesbians.

                Incest isn't acceptable now in Japan, any more than it has ever been - the
                anime exists to deal with issues of fantasized incestual thoughts, rather
                than to represent something that is accepted.

                Cheers,

                Erica

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