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Re: [Yuricon] Incest or lesbiana: What the public wants.

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  • Ken Arromdee
    ... I should point out that we don t typically see horny *guy* who gropes all girls in real life either, and anime is full of that too. (And when the guy of
    Message 1 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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      On Sun, 2 May 2004, Reese wrote:
      > >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.
      > In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
      > girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
      > straight. At least their professional in their jobs.

      I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
      girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.

      (And when the guy of this sort does have a girl, it's usually the one girl
      that he won't grope.)
    • sean
      ... I dunno... I see far more polite, nebbish guys in anime these days. I long for the return of a hero who acts like Ataru Moroboshi rather than Tenchi. --SG
      Message 2 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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        >I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
        >girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.
        >
        >(And when the guy of this sort does have a girl, it's usually the one girl
        >that he won't grope.)

        I dunno... I see far more polite, nebbish guys in anime these days. I long
        for the return of a hero who acts like Ataru Moroboshi rather than Tenchi.

        --SG


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      • Reese
        ... Where have you been? I ve seen it more than I can stand. I have not worked anywhere, from the USAF in the 70 s to political campaigns in 04 that I
        Message 3 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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          At 09:51 AM 5/3/2004 -0700, you wrote:
          >On Sun, 2 May 2004, Reese wrote:
          > > >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.
          > > In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
          > > girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
          > > straight. At least their professional in their jobs.
          >
          >I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
          >girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.

          Where have you been? I've seen it more than I can stand. I have not
          worked anywhere, from the USAF in the 70's to political campaigns in 04'
          that I haven't seen at least one jack-a-nape groping every woman he thought
          he could get away with.
        • Chalcahuite
          ... As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West Virginia. ;) Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous desire of its lead as a
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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            On May 2, 2004, at 8:52 PM, Jen wrote:
            > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
            > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
            > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
            > leads?

            As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West
            Virginia. ;) </Joke> Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous
            desire of its lead as a dramatic device, to add tension and interest in
            what would probably be an otherwise tensionless premise. Young man gets
            to know his much younger sister after a long separation. Not to say
            that this premise can't be done exceedingly well on its own, but
            without the hook it might have been a harder sell. Frankly, I don't
            think you'll find an explicit incestuous relationships anywhere outside
            of hentai, so Koi Kaze will string us along with Koushirou's struggle
            with temptation so we keep watching and after 13 episodes it will
            either have a conventional happy ending or Koushirou will end up as
            tragic object lesson in why you shouldn't lust after your sister, you
            freak.

            Anyway, the answer to your question, is yes, the mainstream, Japanese
            and American, is still uncomfortable with the idea of gay lead
            characters. Which is why Yuricon exists to push, prod and finally drag
            kicking and screaming the mainstream to accept the notion that gays and
            lesbians are *gasp* people too and not just plot devices or comic
            relief, etc. It won't happen overnight, this kind of social attitude
            adjustment never does, hence the taking over the world part of the
            Yuricon mission, because it's far easier to institute positive change
            under the heel of a jackboot. ;)

            > (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
            > wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
            > said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)

            I don't think any of my hentai is in a box, because everyone knows I'm
            a dirty old man, so why hide it?

            > I know of a few anime with *implied* yuri-ness like Utena and
            > the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
            > lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
            > back of the bus as secondary characters:

            And so goes the history of women, black, hispanic, asian characters in
            mainstream media (at least in the US) as well. Even now, in 2004, the
            diversity of minority characters, ethnically, culturally or sexually,
            has never been greater, but there is still a long, long ways to go.
            Changes in social attitudes is evolutionary, meaning that it takes
            generations (I think Foucault said something like that in his
            maddeningly obtuse "The Order of Things", but I'm just guessing,
            because it was maddeningly obtuse. ;) and quite a bit of nagging from
            activists. As an example the general attitude toward women has changed
            significantly since the 1950's in this country, but there is still no
            true parity.
            I can't really speak about the Japanese media, I wouldn't even know
            where to begin. Maybe, with the fact that the US is a hodgepodge of
            cultures and ethnicities, and the Japanese are fairly homogenous
            ethnically and don't have the same concept of minority as we do, but
            that's about the extent of my arguments, I haven't read enough to
            venture forward from there.

            > While there may indeed be genuine lesbian anime out there, I
            > sure don't know of any. The only lead anime lesbians I know
            > of are only lesbians because *I* say they are. All you ever
            > see on the screen are the cliche lines of "true friendship"
            > and "soulmates" and so on. Yawn.

            Well, I think you can argue that most relationship fall into either the
            implicit or explicit categories. And how many of the popular straight
            anime romances are really implicit, but just accepted as explicit?
            Where they don't tell you outright two people are going to end up
            together, they just nudge and wink and point you in that direction. All
            of the harem anime have implicit relationships, you just know that SPLB
            is going to end up with one of the girls, but you never see them
            hooking up.

            > Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
            > on TV? Incest has made the leap to the big time... are lesbian
            > tales still confined to the world of doujinshi?

            I would argue that incest has been in the "big time" since Sophocles.
            And no lesbian tales are not confined to doujinshi. Erica will correct
            me on this, but Yuri Shimai and Yuri Tengoku are not doujinshi, I don't
            know how popular or successful they are, but they are commercial
            ventures, not fan publications as far as I know. And Rica Takashima,
            Eriko Tadeno, and Yamaji Ebine are professional lesbian mangaka. So
            while the mainstream is not flooded with yuri stories, they do exist
            outside doujinshi.

            > The UTENA movie notwithstanding, is there any genuine lesbian
            > anime out there, and I just don't know it (thus making this
            > entire post meaningless)? Or is the UTENA movie only praised
            > so much because it's the *only* anime out there where the lead
            > character's a lesbian? (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
            > yet!)

            Well, I've been thinking about you criteria (out and proud and the
            lead) and I can't think of any really at the moment, but there might be
            one or two on The List, I'm just too lazy to check right now, and I'm
            not sure that even the Utena movie meets that criteria.

            -==-
            Serge
            Let the corrections and counter arguments begin. ;)
          • donnaneely
            ... Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical...... why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture should have a more or less tolerant attitude to
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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              --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:
              > Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and
              > his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.

              > http://www.jascii.net/newanime/season.php#koikaze

              > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
              > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
              > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
              > leads?
              >


              Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical......

              why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture
              should have a more or less tolerant attitude to "taboos" just because
              they have animation/manga as vibrant lucrative industries?

              secondly, isnt it in fact because they are lucrative and mainstream
              that they do not represent all facets of relationships and humanity?
              Just like television and movies just about anywhere in the world. I
              remember with Fire came out in India there were riots - and that was
              a movie that folks could easily avoid. There is some unspoken
              assumption on the part of the public that broadcasts have tighter
              limitations then say books. I suspect there is a dissertation in
              there but I wont bother.

              As for Koi Kaze which I am watching devotedly:

              the reviews i have read by your run of the mill male otaku are
              woefully inadequate. i realize the subject makes them, and others,
              jumpy but that is EXACTLY the material that the story is
              examining. "Taboo" feelings and how one might struggle with them.
              From both perspectives I might add the brother's and sister's

              another comment, lots and lots of anime has very large sized men with
              very petite sized women - even if those women are adult. i agree that
              the sister is drawn in a fashion that makes her look 10 instead of 14-
              15 and in high school, but this is not unique to Koi Kaze in my
              experience. so why would that be more of a sin in Koi Kaze?

              I do not for a minute believe that these two characters will actually
              be sexual with one another......but they will definitely live through
              the angst and agonies of being attracted to someone "taboo". I
              suspect that these are the struggles that I am identifying with in
              the series. Something just feels familiar there.

              beyond that - again I downloaded this show because I heard songs from
              the credits on the RONDO website and fell in love with the music.
              Following the music seems to be exposing me to quite a wide variety
              of shows. <grin>

              donnaneely
            • Simon Catterall
              I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
              Message 6 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
                horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
                time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
                you'll see plenty. ;)
                And it's not just groping women either :D
                neh

                Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you do?

                Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                http://au.movies.yahoo.com
              • Simon Catterall
                whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already said something :P hehe Excuse the traffic... ... I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny
                Message 7 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                  whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
                  said something :P
                  hehe
                  Excuse the traffic...

                  --- Simon Catterall <simoncatterall@...>
                  wrote:
                  ---------------------------------
                  I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
                  horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
                  time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                  check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
                  you'll see plenty. ;)
                  And it's not just groping women either :D
                  neh

                  Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you
                  do?

                  Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                  http://au.movies.yahoo.com

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                • Reese
                  ... I don t mind being backed up when I m right. Its being backed up OVER when I m wrong that hurts. owwie.... Knobbies.... You have been selected for a
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                    At 11:09 AM 5/4/2004 +1200, you wrote:
                    >whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
                    >said something :P
                    >hehe
                    >Excuse the traffic...

                    I don't mind being backed up when I'm right. Its being backed up OVER when
                    I'm wrong that hurts.

                    owwie.... Knobbies....















                    You have been selected for a secret mission.
                  • Erica Friedman
                    ... I think you re mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 4, 2004
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                      >From: "Jen" <puni@...>

                      >So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                      >and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                      >still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                      >leads?

                      I think you're mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have
                      never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
                      culture that doesn't have good lines of communication to deal with taboo
                      issues. That's why so many lesbians exist in anime, while almost none
                      actually act or look like actual lesbians.

                      Incest isn't acceptable now in Japan, any more than it has ever been - the
                      anime exists to deal with issues of fantasized incestual thoughts, rather
                      than to represent something that is accepted.

                      Cheers,

                      Erica

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