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Incest or lesbiana: What the public wants.

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  • Reese
    ... Yuk. ... I feel that only those in power are unable to accept anything beyond their own narrow minded beliefs. Being in power, they decide what the rest
    Message 1 of 13 , May 2, 2004
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      At 12:52 AM 5/3/2004 +0000, you wrote:
      >Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and
      >his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.

      Yuk.

      >So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
      >and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
      >still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
      >leads?

      I feel that only those 'in power' are unable to accept anything beyond
      their own narrow minded beliefs. Being in power, they decide what the rest
      of us see, hoping thus to rule our beliefs.

      Doesn't work though.

      >(... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
      >wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
      >said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)

      Um.. I burned it, sorry.

      >the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
      >lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
      >back of the bus as secondary characters:

      Sounds like the American South in the 50's, when I grew up.

      >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.

      In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
      girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
      straight. At least their professional in their jobs.

      >* The yuri-riffic girl who's all angsty and longing for her
      >best friend. Often reciprocated. 99% chance of tragic ending.

      Angst has its place, however like eating cheese, overdoing it leads to
      certain problems one does not wish to think about.

      >* The hentai lesbian thrown in for "Hot Lesbo Action." By the
      >way, I'm keeping the box.

      What's wrong with two women falling in love?

      >* Genuine lesbians, like MariMite's Sei Satou. If their death
      >isn't integral to the plot, they're removed from the series
      >via other means.

      IE: Bad writers.

      >Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
      >on TV?

      No more so than the American public. Only those 'in power' are
      unready. Not to forget the brain dead cults such as Falwells sheep.

      > (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
      >yet!)

      Downloading it via Bit-Torrent as I write, I'll let you know my opinion in
      um... 37 hours or so.
    • BlueRoseDeya@aol.com
      In a message dated 5/2/2004 8:54:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, puni@internode.on.net writes: (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
      Message 2 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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        In a message dated 5/2/2004 8:54:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, puni@... writes:
        (... put away that box of hentai.  You KNOW what I mean.  No
        wait... bring that box back.  Something caught my eye... I
        said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)
        NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! IT'S MINE!! ALL MINE!!!  :P
         
        -sharon
      • Ken Arromdee
        ... I should point out that we don t typically see horny *guy* who gropes all girls in real life either, and anime is full of that too. (And when the guy of
        Message 3 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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          On Sun, 2 May 2004, Reese wrote:
          > >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.
          > In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
          > girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
          > straight. At least their professional in their jobs.

          I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
          girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.

          (And when the guy of this sort does have a girl, it's usually the one girl
          that he won't grope.)
        • sean
          ... I dunno... I see far more polite, nebbish guys in anime these days. I long for the return of a hero who acts like Ataru Moroboshi rather than Tenchi. --SG
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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            >I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
            >girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.
            >
            >(And when the guy of this sort does have a girl, it's usually the one girl
            >that he won't grope.)

            I dunno... I see far more polite, nebbish guys in anime these days. I long
            for the return of a hero who acts like Ataru Moroboshi rather than Tenchi.

            --SG


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          • Reese
            ... Where have you been? I ve seen it more than I can stand. I have not worked anywhere, from the USAF in the 70 s to political campaigns in 04 that I
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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              At 09:51 AM 5/3/2004 -0700, you wrote:
              >On Sun, 2 May 2004, Reese wrote:
              > > >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.
              > > In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
              > > girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
              > > straight. At least their professional in their jobs.
              >
              >I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
              >girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.

              Where have you been? I've seen it more than I can stand. I have not
              worked anywhere, from the USAF in the 70's to political campaigns in 04'
              that I haven't seen at least one jack-a-nape groping every woman he thought
              he could get away with.
            • Chalcahuite
              ... As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West Virginia. ;) Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous desire of its lead as a
              Message 6 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                On May 2, 2004, at 8:52 PM, Jen wrote:
                > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                > leads?

                As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West
                Virginia. ;) </Joke> Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous
                desire of its lead as a dramatic device, to add tension and interest in
                what would probably be an otherwise tensionless premise. Young man gets
                to know his much younger sister after a long separation. Not to say
                that this premise can't be done exceedingly well on its own, but
                without the hook it might have been a harder sell. Frankly, I don't
                think you'll find an explicit incestuous relationships anywhere outside
                of hentai, so Koi Kaze will string us along with Koushirou's struggle
                with temptation so we keep watching and after 13 episodes it will
                either have a conventional happy ending or Koushirou will end up as
                tragic object lesson in why you shouldn't lust after your sister, you
                freak.

                Anyway, the answer to your question, is yes, the mainstream, Japanese
                and American, is still uncomfortable with the idea of gay lead
                characters. Which is why Yuricon exists to push, prod and finally drag
                kicking and screaming the mainstream to accept the notion that gays and
                lesbians are *gasp* people too and not just plot devices or comic
                relief, etc. It won't happen overnight, this kind of social attitude
                adjustment never does, hence the taking over the world part of the
                Yuricon mission, because it's far easier to institute positive change
                under the heel of a jackboot. ;)

                > (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
                > wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
                > said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)

                I don't think any of my hentai is in a box, because everyone knows I'm
                a dirty old man, so why hide it?

                > I know of a few anime with *implied* yuri-ness like Utena and
                > the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
                > lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
                > back of the bus as secondary characters:

                And so goes the history of women, black, hispanic, asian characters in
                mainstream media (at least in the US) as well. Even now, in 2004, the
                diversity of minority characters, ethnically, culturally or sexually,
                has never been greater, but there is still a long, long ways to go.
                Changes in social attitudes is evolutionary, meaning that it takes
                generations (I think Foucault said something like that in his
                maddeningly obtuse "The Order of Things", but I'm just guessing,
                because it was maddeningly obtuse. ;) and quite a bit of nagging from
                activists. As an example the general attitude toward women has changed
                significantly since the 1950's in this country, but there is still no
                true parity.
                I can't really speak about the Japanese media, I wouldn't even know
                where to begin. Maybe, with the fact that the US is a hodgepodge of
                cultures and ethnicities, and the Japanese are fairly homogenous
                ethnically and don't have the same concept of minority as we do, but
                that's about the extent of my arguments, I haven't read enough to
                venture forward from there.

                > While there may indeed be genuine lesbian anime out there, I
                > sure don't know of any. The only lead anime lesbians I know
                > of are only lesbians because *I* say they are. All you ever
                > see on the screen are the cliche lines of "true friendship"
                > and "soulmates" and so on. Yawn.

                Well, I think you can argue that most relationship fall into either the
                implicit or explicit categories. And how many of the popular straight
                anime romances are really implicit, but just accepted as explicit?
                Where they don't tell you outright two people are going to end up
                together, they just nudge and wink and point you in that direction. All
                of the harem anime have implicit relationships, you just know that SPLB
                is going to end up with one of the girls, but you never see them
                hooking up.

                > Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
                > on TV? Incest has made the leap to the big time... are lesbian
                > tales still confined to the world of doujinshi?

                I would argue that incest has been in the "big time" since Sophocles.
                And no lesbian tales are not confined to doujinshi. Erica will correct
                me on this, but Yuri Shimai and Yuri Tengoku are not doujinshi, I don't
                know how popular or successful they are, but they are commercial
                ventures, not fan publications as far as I know. And Rica Takashima,
                Eriko Tadeno, and Yamaji Ebine are professional lesbian mangaka. So
                while the mainstream is not flooded with yuri stories, they do exist
                outside doujinshi.

                > The UTENA movie notwithstanding, is there any genuine lesbian
                > anime out there, and I just don't know it (thus making this
                > entire post meaningless)? Or is the UTENA movie only praised
                > so much because it's the *only* anime out there where the lead
                > character's a lesbian? (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
                > yet!)

                Well, I've been thinking about you criteria (out and proud and the
                lead) and I can't think of any really at the moment, but there might be
                one or two on The List, I'm just too lazy to check right now, and I'm
                not sure that even the Utena movie meets that criteria.

                -==-
                Serge
                Let the corrections and counter arguments begin. ;)
              • donnaneely
                ... Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical...... why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture should have a more or less tolerant attitude to
                Message 7 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                  --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:
                  > Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and
                  > his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.

                  > http://www.jascii.net/newanime/season.php#koikaze

                  > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                  > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                  > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                  > leads?
                  >


                  Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical......

                  why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture
                  should have a more or less tolerant attitude to "taboos" just because
                  they have animation/manga as vibrant lucrative industries?

                  secondly, isnt it in fact because they are lucrative and mainstream
                  that they do not represent all facets of relationships and humanity?
                  Just like television and movies just about anywhere in the world. I
                  remember with Fire came out in India there were riots - and that was
                  a movie that folks could easily avoid. There is some unspoken
                  assumption on the part of the public that broadcasts have tighter
                  limitations then say books. I suspect there is a dissertation in
                  there but I wont bother.

                  As for Koi Kaze which I am watching devotedly:

                  the reviews i have read by your run of the mill male otaku are
                  woefully inadequate. i realize the subject makes them, and others,
                  jumpy but that is EXACTLY the material that the story is
                  examining. "Taboo" feelings and how one might struggle with them.
                  From both perspectives I might add the brother's and sister's

                  another comment, lots and lots of anime has very large sized men with
                  very petite sized women - even if those women are adult. i agree that
                  the sister is drawn in a fashion that makes her look 10 instead of 14-
                  15 and in high school, but this is not unique to Koi Kaze in my
                  experience. so why would that be more of a sin in Koi Kaze?

                  I do not for a minute believe that these two characters will actually
                  be sexual with one another......but they will definitely live through
                  the angst and agonies of being attracted to someone "taboo". I
                  suspect that these are the struggles that I am identifying with in
                  the series. Something just feels familiar there.

                  beyond that - again I downloaded this show because I heard songs from
                  the credits on the RONDO website and fell in love with the music.
                  Following the music seems to be exposing me to quite a wide variety
                  of shows. <grin>

                  donnaneely
                • Simon Catterall
                  I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                    I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
                    horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
                    time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                    check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
                    you'll see plenty. ;)
                    And it's not just groping women either :D
                    neh

                    Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you do?

                    Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                    http://au.movies.yahoo.com
                  • Simon Catterall
                    whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already said something :P hehe Excuse the traffic... ... I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                      whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
                      said something :P
                      hehe
                      Excuse the traffic...

                      --- Simon Catterall <simoncatterall@...>
                      wrote:
                      ---------------------------------
                      I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
                      horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
                      time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                      check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
                      you'll see plenty. ;)
                      And it's not just groping women either :D
                      neh

                      Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you
                      do?

                      Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                      http://au.movies.yahoo.com

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                    • Reese
                      ... I don t mind being backed up when I m right. Its being backed up OVER when I m wrong that hurts. owwie.... Knobbies.... You have been selected for a
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                        At 11:09 AM 5/4/2004 +1200, you wrote:
                        >whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
                        >said something :P
                        >hehe
                        >Excuse the traffic...

                        I don't mind being backed up when I'm right. Its being backed up OVER when
                        I'm wrong that hurts.

                        owwie.... Knobbies....















                        You have been selected for a secret mission.
                      • Erica Friedman
                        ... I think you re mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 4, 2004
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                          >From: "Jen" <puni@...>

                          >So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                          >and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                          >still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                          >leads?

                          I think you're mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have
                          never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
                          culture that doesn't have good lines of communication to deal with taboo
                          issues. That's why so many lesbians exist in anime, while almost none
                          actually act or look like actual lesbians.

                          Incest isn't acceptable now in Japan, any more than it has ever been - the
                          anime exists to deal with issues of fantasized incestual thoughts, rather
                          than to represent something that is accepted.

                          Cheers,

                          Erica

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