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Incest or lesbiana: What the public wants.

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  • Jen
    Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.
    Message 1 of 13 , May 2, 2004
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      Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and
      his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.

      http://www.jascii.net/newanime/season.php#koikaze


      So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
      and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
      still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
      leads?

      (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
      wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
      said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)

      I know of a few anime with *implied* yuri-ness like Utena and
      the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
      lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
      back of the bus as secondary characters:

      * The horny lesbian who gropes all girls. Titilation and
      comedic purposes only.

      * The yuri-riffic girl who's all angsty and longing for her
      best friend. Often reciprocated. 99% chance of tragic ending.

      * The hentai lesbian thrown in for "Hot Lesbo Action." By the
      way, I'm keeping the box.

      * Genuine lesbians, like MariMite's Sei Satou. If their death
      isn't integral to the plot, they're removed from the series
      via other means.



      While there may indeed be genuine lesbian anime out there, I
      sure don't know of any. The only lead anime lesbians I know
      of are only lesbians because *I* say they are. All you ever
      see on the screen are the cliche lines of "true friendship"
      and "soulmates" and so on. Yawn.

      Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
      on TV? Incest has made the leap to the big time... are lesbian
      tales still confined to the world of doujinshi?

      The UTENA movie notwithstanding, is there any genuine lesbian
      anime out there, and I just don't know it (thus making this
      entire post meaningless)? Or is the UTENA movie only praised
      so much because it's the *only* anime out there where the lead
      character's a lesbian? (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
      yet!)

      (NOTE: I just received a book of 4-panel funnies for the
      Utena movie. If there's any real good ones, I'll scan n'
      translate 'em. Of course, I have to see the movie first!)

      Kisses XXOOXX
      Jen
    • shenotski
      Yes.
      Message 2 of 13 , May 2, 2004
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        Yes.
        > Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
        > on TV? Incest has made the leap to the big time... are lesbian
        > tales still confined to the world of doujinshi?
      • Reese
        ... Yuk. ... I feel that only those in power are unable to accept anything beyond their own narrow minded beliefs. Being in power, they decide what the rest
        Message 3 of 13 , May 2, 2004
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          At 12:52 AM 5/3/2004 +0000, you wrote:
          >Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and
          >his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.

          Yuk.

          >So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
          >and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
          >still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
          >leads?

          I feel that only those 'in power' are unable to accept anything beyond
          their own narrow minded beliefs. Being in power, they decide what the rest
          of us see, hoping thus to rule our beliefs.

          Doesn't work though.

          >(... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
          >wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
          >said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)

          Um.. I burned it, sorry.

          >the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
          >lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
          >back of the bus as secondary characters:

          Sounds like the American South in the 50's, when I grew up.

          >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.

          In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
          girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
          straight. At least their professional in their jobs.

          >* The yuri-riffic girl who's all angsty and longing for her
          >best friend. Often reciprocated. 99% chance of tragic ending.

          Angst has its place, however like eating cheese, overdoing it leads to
          certain problems one does not wish to think about.

          >* The hentai lesbian thrown in for "Hot Lesbo Action." By the
          >way, I'm keeping the box.

          What's wrong with two women falling in love?

          >* Genuine lesbians, like MariMite's Sei Satou. If their death
          >isn't integral to the plot, they're removed from the series
          >via other means.

          IE: Bad writers.

          >Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
          >on TV?

          No more so than the American public. Only those 'in power' are
          unready. Not to forget the brain dead cults such as Falwells sheep.

          > (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
          >yet!)

          Downloading it via Bit-Torrent as I write, I'll let you know my opinion in
          um... 37 hours or so.
        • BlueRoseDeya@aol.com
          In a message dated 5/2/2004 8:54:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, puni@internode.on.net writes: (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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            In a message dated 5/2/2004 8:54:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, puni@... writes:
            (... put away that box of hentai.  You KNOW what I mean.  No
            wait... bring that box back.  Something caught my eye... I
            said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)
            NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! IT'S MINE!! ALL MINE!!!  :P
             
            -sharon
          • Ken Arromdee
            ... I should point out that we don t typically see horny *guy* who gropes all girls in real life either, and anime is full of that too. (And when the guy of
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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              On Sun, 2 May 2004, Reese wrote:
              > >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.
              > In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
              > girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
              > straight. At least their professional in their jobs.

              I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
              girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.

              (And when the guy of this sort does have a girl, it's usually the one girl
              that he won't grope.)
            • sean
              ... I dunno... I see far more polite, nebbish guys in anime these days. I long for the return of a hero who acts like Ataru Moroboshi rather than Tenchi. --SG
              Message 6 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                >I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
                >girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.
                >
                >(And when the guy of this sort does have a girl, it's usually the one girl
                >that he won't grope.)

                I dunno... I see far more polite, nebbish guys in anime these days. I long
                for the return of a hero who acts like Ataru Moroboshi rather than Tenchi.

                --SG


                ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
                Sent via the KillerWebMail system at mail.centragarden.net
              • Reese
                ... Where have you been? I ve seen it more than I can stand. I have not worked anywhere, from the USAF in the 70 s to political campaigns in 04 that I
                Message 7 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                  At 09:51 AM 5/3/2004 -0700, you wrote:
                  >On Sun, 2 May 2004, Reese wrote:
                  > > >* The horny lesbian who gropes all girls.
                  > > In my long life I have never observed a 'horny lesbian groping all the
                  > > girls' and I've always preferred to work with lesbian/gay people than
                  > > straight. At least their professional in their jobs.
                  >
                  >I should point out that we don't typically see "horny *guy* who gropes all
                  >girls" in real life either, and anime is full of that too.

                  Where have you been? I've seen it more than I can stand. I have not
                  worked anywhere, from the USAF in the 70's to political campaigns in 04'
                  that I haven't seen at least one jack-a-nape groping every woman he thought
                  he could get away with.
                • Chalcahuite
                  ... As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West Virginia. ;) Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous desire of its lead as a
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                    On May 2, 2004, at 8:52 PM, Jen wrote:
                    > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                    > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                    > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                    > leads?

                    As far as I know, incest is still a taboo everywhere except West
                    Virginia. ;) </Joke> Seriously, Koi Kaze is using the incestuous
                    desire of its lead as a dramatic device, to add tension and interest in
                    what would probably be an otherwise tensionless premise. Young man gets
                    to know his much younger sister after a long separation. Not to say
                    that this premise can't be done exceedingly well on its own, but
                    without the hook it might have been a harder sell. Frankly, I don't
                    think you'll find an explicit incestuous relationships anywhere outside
                    of hentai, so Koi Kaze will string us along with Koushirou's struggle
                    with temptation so we keep watching and after 13 episodes it will
                    either have a conventional happy ending or Koushirou will end up as
                    tragic object lesson in why you shouldn't lust after your sister, you
                    freak.

                    Anyway, the answer to your question, is yes, the mainstream, Japanese
                    and American, is still uncomfortable with the idea of gay lead
                    characters. Which is why Yuricon exists to push, prod and finally drag
                    kicking and screaming the mainstream to accept the notion that gays and
                    lesbians are *gasp* people too and not just plot devices or comic
                    relief, etc. It won't happen overnight, this kind of social attitude
                    adjustment never does, hence the taking over the world part of the
                    Yuricon mission, because it's far easier to institute positive change
                    under the heel of a jackboot. ;)

                    > (... put away that box of hentai. You KNOW what I mean. No
                    > wait... bring that box back. Something caught my eye... I
                    > said bring it ba... BRING IT BACK, DAMN YOU!!)

                    I don't think any of my hentai is in a box, because everyone knows I'm
                    a dirty old man, so why hide it?

                    > I know of a few anime with *implied* yuri-ness like Utena and
                    > the like, but I'm still too mainstream. I know of no anime
                    > lesbians that get leading roles, instead always pushed to the
                    > back of the bus as secondary characters:

                    And so goes the history of women, black, hispanic, asian characters in
                    mainstream media (at least in the US) as well. Even now, in 2004, the
                    diversity of minority characters, ethnically, culturally or sexually,
                    has never been greater, but there is still a long, long ways to go.
                    Changes in social attitudes is evolutionary, meaning that it takes
                    generations (I think Foucault said something like that in his
                    maddeningly obtuse "The Order of Things", but I'm just guessing,
                    because it was maddeningly obtuse. ;) and quite a bit of nagging from
                    activists. As an example the general attitude toward women has changed
                    significantly since the 1950's in this country, but there is still no
                    true parity.
                    I can't really speak about the Japanese media, I wouldn't even know
                    where to begin. Maybe, with the fact that the US is a hodgepodge of
                    cultures and ethnicities, and the Japanese are fairly homogenous
                    ethnically and don't have the same concept of minority as we do, but
                    that's about the extent of my arguments, I haven't read enough to
                    venture forward from there.

                    > While there may indeed be genuine lesbian anime out there, I
                    > sure don't know of any. The only lead anime lesbians I know
                    > of are only lesbians because *I* say they are. All you ever
                    > see on the screen are the cliche lines of "true friendship"
                    > and "soulmates" and so on. Yawn.

                    Well, I think you can argue that most relationship fall into either the
                    implicit or explicit categories. And how many of the popular straight
                    anime romances are really implicit, but just accepted as explicit?
                    Where they don't tell you outright two people are going to end up
                    together, they just nudge and wink and point you in that direction. All
                    of the harem anime have implicit relationships, you just know that SPLB
                    is going to end up with one of the girls, but you never see them
                    hooking up.

                    > Is the Japanese public truly unprepared for true lesbianime
                    > on TV? Incest has made the leap to the big time... are lesbian
                    > tales still confined to the world of doujinshi?

                    I would argue that incest has been in the "big time" since Sophocles.
                    And no lesbian tales are not confined to doujinshi. Erica will correct
                    me on this, but Yuri Shimai and Yuri Tengoku are not doujinshi, I don't
                    know how popular or successful they are, but they are commercial
                    ventures, not fan publications as far as I know. And Rica Takashima,
                    Eriko Tadeno, and Yamaji Ebine are professional lesbian mangaka. So
                    while the mainstream is not flooded with yuri stories, they do exist
                    outside doujinshi.

                    > The UTENA movie notwithstanding, is there any genuine lesbian
                    > anime out there, and I just don't know it (thus making this
                    > entire post meaningless)? Or is the UTENA movie only praised
                    > so much because it's the *only* anime out there where the lead
                    > character's a lesbian? (...so I assume. I haven't seen the movie
                    > yet!)

                    Well, I've been thinking about you criteria (out and proud and the
                    lead) and I can't think of any really at the moment, but there might be
                    one or two on The List, I'm just too lazy to check right now, and I'm
                    not sure that even the Utena movie meets that criteria.

                    -==-
                    Serge
                    Let the corrections and counter arguments begin. ;)
                  • donnaneely
                    ... Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical...... why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture should have a more or less tolerant attitude to
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                      --- In Yuricon@yahoogroups.com, "Jen" <puni@i...> wrote:
                      > Oh look, a genuine romantic drama about a great big man and
                      > his teeny-tiny schoolgirl sister falling in lo~ve.

                      > http://www.jascii.net/newanime/season.php#koikaze

                      > So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                      > and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                      > still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                      > leads?
                      >


                      Couple of thoughts, some rhetorical......

                      why would one have an expectation that any one society or culture
                      should have a more or less tolerant attitude to "taboos" just because
                      they have animation/manga as vibrant lucrative industries?

                      secondly, isnt it in fact because they are lucrative and mainstream
                      that they do not represent all facets of relationships and humanity?
                      Just like television and movies just about anywhere in the world. I
                      remember with Fire came out in India there were riots - and that was
                      a movie that folks could easily avoid. There is some unspoken
                      assumption on the part of the public that broadcasts have tighter
                      limitations then say books. I suspect there is a dissertation in
                      there but I wont bother.

                      As for Koi Kaze which I am watching devotedly:

                      the reviews i have read by your run of the mill male otaku are
                      woefully inadequate. i realize the subject makes them, and others,
                      jumpy but that is EXACTLY the material that the story is
                      examining. "Taboo" feelings and how one might struggle with them.
                      From both perspectives I might add the brother's and sister's

                      another comment, lots and lots of anime has very large sized men with
                      very petite sized women - even if those women are adult. i agree that
                      the sister is drawn in a fashion that makes her look 10 instead of 14-
                      15 and in high school, but this is not unique to Koi Kaze in my
                      experience. so why would that be more of a sin in Koi Kaze?

                      I do not for a minute believe that these two characters will actually
                      be sexual with one another......but they will definitely live through
                      the angst and agonies of being attracted to someone "taboo". I
                      suspect that these are the struggles that I am identifying with in
                      the series. Something just feels familiar there.

                      beyond that - again I downloaded this show because I heard songs from
                      the credits on the RONDO website and fell in love with the music.
                      Following the music seems to be exposing me to quite a wide variety
                      of shows. <grin>

                      donnaneely
                    • Simon Catterall
                      I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                        I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
                        horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
                        time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                        check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
                        you'll see plenty. ;)
                        And it's not just groping women either :D
                        neh

                        Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you do?

                        Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                        http://au.movies.yahoo.com
                      • Simon Catterall
                        whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already said something :P hehe Excuse the traffic... ... I would like to dispute that, i ve seen plenty of horny
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                          whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
                          said something :P
                          hehe
                          Excuse the traffic...

                          --- Simon Catterall <simoncatterall@...>
                          wrote:
                          ---------------------------------
                          I would like to dispute that, i've seen plenty of
                          horny guys (and not horny guys) groping girls all the
                          time, weather they want to be groped or not. Go and
                          check out the some of the jocks and the arseholes pen,
                          you'll see plenty. ;)
                          And it's not just groping women either :D
                          neh

                          Frankly it annoys the hell out of me but what can you
                          do?

                          Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                          http://au.movies.yahoo.com

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                        • Reese
                          ... I don t mind being backed up when I m right. Its being backed up OVER when I m wrong that hurts. owwie.... Knobbies.... You have been selected for a
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 3, 2004
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                            At 11:09 AM 5/4/2004 +1200, you wrote:
                            >whoops, a bit late on that comment...Reese already
                            >said something :P
                            >hehe
                            >Excuse the traffic...

                            I don't mind being backed up when I'm right. Its being backed up OVER when
                            I'm wrong that hurts.

                            owwie.... Knobbies....















                            You have been selected for a secret mission.
                          • Erica Friedman
                            ... I think you re mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 4, 2004
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                              >From: "Jen" <puni@...>

                              >So tell me, while incest is now apparently no longer a taboo
                              >and ready for public consumption as a genuine genre, is Japan
                              >still too conservative to accept an anime with genuine lesbian
                              >leads?

                              I think you're mistaken about the nature of taboo here. Anime and manga have
                              never been meant to represent reality. They are, in large part a way for a
                              culture that doesn't have good lines of communication to deal with taboo
                              issues. That's why so many lesbians exist in anime, while almost none
                              actually act or look like actual lesbians.

                              Incest isn't acceptable now in Japan, any more than it has ever been - the
                              anime exists to deal with issues of fantasized incestual thoughts, rather
                              than to represent something that is accepted.

                              Cheers,

                              Erica

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