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Re: Brief digression about appearance, genetics, and race Re: [Y-DNA-G2c] Any non-Jewish G2c?

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  • avihenoch@aol.com
    My late father, whose roots were in Germany/poland had very pale skin and very red hair but an einstein-like proboscis. My maternal grandmother from? Russia
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 2, 2009
      My late father, whose roots were in Germany/poland had very pale skin and very red hair but an einstein-like proboscis. My maternal grandmother from  Russia had blue eyes and red hair and a rather straight sniffer . I am very pale and was blond until my 6th year. [My brother had a mongolian spot now faded.]
      Welcome to the tribe.
      Avi


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jerrold Keilson <jkeilson24@...>
      To: Y-DNA-G2c@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sun, Apr 12, 2009 9:02 pm
      Subject: Re: Brief digression about appearance, genetics, and race Re: [Y-DNA-G2c] Any non-Jewish G2c?

       
      Jan, yes actually my family has a strong epicanthic eyefold that has shown in my father, my uncle, several first cousins of my father, me, and various others.  About 15 years ago I was in Almaty, in Kazakstan, and a local person said that I looked just like a Tatar.  Also, one of my sons was born with a Mongolian spot, a dark spot just above his backside that faded after a couple of years; it apparently is common in asian children.
      Jerrold Keilson


      From: "pi@janbtucker. com" <pi@janbtucker. com>
      To: Y-DNA-G2c@yahoogrou ps.com
      Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 9:56:42 AM
      Subject: Re: Brief digression about appearance, genetics, and race Re: [Y-DNA-G2c] Any non-Jewish G2c?

      This discussion prompted a related question in my mind.  I have a slight epicanthic eye fold (East Asiatic style eye shape).  It was more pronounced when I was younger; in my 9th grade photo I look Chinese (as opposed say to Japanese or Koreans, I grew up with a lot of East Asians in my neighborhood and school).

      Does anybody else in the group have that characteristic or is it in their family?

      Jan Tucker

      --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Ted Kandell <ted_kandell@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: Ted Kandell <ted_kandell@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: Brief digression about appearance, genetics, and race Re: [Y-DNA-G2c] Any non-Jewish G2c?
      To: Y-DNA-G2c@yahoogrou ps.com
      Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 4:36 AM

      As Ray said, appearance is strictly autosomal and has nothing to do with the Y. However, being that red hair is recessive and requires genes from both sides, I'll say that it's known that Polish Jews have some of the highest percentages of red hair after the Irish. (The actual mutation is different in both groups.) Blue eyes is a polygenic trait but it has an inheritance pattern similar to a recessive one. Many Ashkenazi Jews also have blue eyes.

      if there's anything we can say about the appearance of Ashkenazi Jews, is that it doesn't at all conform to any stereotype, and that it ranges from people who may look rather African to people who look somewhat Asian to many quite fair red haired, blonde and green or blue eyed people. This varied origin is actually confirmed by the mtDNA ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews, which includes at least one uniquely "Ashkenazi" sub-Saharan West African ancestor in haplogroup L2a1, and another who is clearly East Asian M33c1  (in fact, Chinese, but from absolutely nowhere in between).  Many of the other Ashkenazi female ancestors seem to come from Italy and Spain. Some may be Near Eastern or from the Caucasus. Ashkenazi Jews have an extremely limited number of recent ancestors (G2c is a perfect example of this) but these ancestors - especially the female ones - are of quite diverse origins.

      There is actually an important lesson here (and I know some of our G2cs can personally confim this):
      Our ideas of "race" in general are not really valid. True, people in certian isolated regions such as islands may have been isolated for a long time and therefore develop a unique physical appearance, but one can't quite classify people into clear-cut "races". Ashkenazi Jews have suffered more terribly than anyone on earth from pseudo-scientific ideas about race. We have some survivors in G2c who experienced this themselves.

      If we look at human beings genetically, all non-Africans are pretty similar to each other, while Africans tend to be quite diverse among themselves - even within the genes of a single individual. (Africans are much more heterozygous than other people.)

      Based on genetic differences, which two people on Earth would be the most distant genetically (racially?) from each other?

      One Bushman and another Bushman. This is a scientific fact.
       
      We can even see this on the mtDNA tree alone. If we  look at just the genes of all of humanity, and examine samples of genomes without any reference to their region or how common these populations were, but just by their genetic diversity, we would see that all non-Africans are just a very small subset of a few Africans, and everyone else looks like a small subset of Bushmen. I think Spencer Wells made this point directly in his documentary the Journey of Man, when he visited the Bushmen in the Kalahari and told them "I'm a Bushman too.".


      -ted



      From: Siusaidh Ceanadach <siusaidhc@gmail. com>
      To: Y-DNA-G2c@yahoogrou ps.com
      Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 2:16:50 AM
      Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-G2c] Any non-Jewish G2c?

      You are not alone! My Uncle also was not brought up Jewish, although he was called a Jewish B* as a teenager by his adopted Mother.

      He also had clear blue eyes and as a young man fair very wavey hair. I'm sure that there will be both Jewish and non Jewish people with red hair and blue eyes.
      Kind Regards,
      Susan


      2009/4/11 Pupsenok <lpshenton@rogers. com>


      This is probably not the average enthusiastic introductory post.

      I am not Jewish. My family has very pale skin, blue eyes and an overwhelming preponderance of red hair. Accordingly, when I received my Y-chromosome data from Ancestry.com that my haplogroup is G2c, I felt disturbed, disapointed and displaced. Is there anyone else who is not Jewish with G2c or am I alone?


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