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Re: [Xylotex] Re: torque problem

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  • Tony Hoodak
    My first reaction after reading this thread is that there is an issue with the leadscrew somewhere. You mentioned you checked this for binding. How did you
    Message 1 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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      My first reaction after reading this thread is that there is an issue with the leadscrew somewhere. You mentioned you checked this for binding. How did you perform the check? I noticed that on my router, I can move at rapid (say 50 IPM) but the leadscrew performance won't allow me to machine anywhere near that speed (when cutting wood or even MDF). I haven't tried cutting anything like plastic or foam at this point to see if there is a significant difference.

      --- On Fri, 5/1/09, grahamshere <gprinn@...> wrote:


      From: grahamshere <gprinn@...>
      Subject: [Xylotex] Re: torque problem
      To: Xylotex@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, May 1, 2009, 4:27 AM








      --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups .com, Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > On Thursday 30 April 2009, grahamshere wrote:
      > >--- In Xylotex@yahoogroups .com, "grahamshere" <gprinn@> wrote:
      > >> Hey guys, Wondering if I could get some help, I seem to be losing torque,
      > >> don't know if it's the drivers or not, I have the 3 axis board with 425 oz
      > >> motors. running mach3 (latest ver) pent4 2 ghz 2 gig ram. I have my verf
      > >> set at 3.60 the highest I can. I installed dampeners which help with the
      > >> speed, I had it running 300 imp fine but once I apply any pressure on the
      > >> gantry it stalls, it does this even at 20 imp, I use a Microsoft game pad
      > >> to move the machine and it become worse, has way less torque. It works
      > >> fine when cutting air but once the router plunges into the wood and about
      > >> 10 seconds later it stalls. If I can get this to work right I'll be a very
      > >> happy man. Thanks for any help. Graham
      > >
      > >Hi again. I am wondering if have every thing connected to a extension cord
      > > be the problem, every thing meaning computer, monitor, lights. I,m sure the
      > > driver is good just something causing it to stall.Could something in mach3
      > > be doing it? I ran the test and the line was straight with very little
      > > spiking. If you can please give advice, need my machine working. thanks..
      > > Graham
      >
      > The ext cord, if its big enough, should not be a problem.
      >
      > However, it has come to my attention that the video driver nvidia supplies is
      > a latency hog, not giving the system back to the machine controller for many
      > milliseconds at a time. This screws with the regularity of the stepper
      > pulses, making the motors sound ragged and can lead to exactly what you are
      > reporting. The motor will not get a pulse in time, so it recoils back to the
      > center position of that step or beyond, and is then effectively stopped when
      > the steps resume at normal pace, the motor can't possibly get back to speed in
      > one step, so it hangs instead.
      >
      > I run linux, and emc, and after a long night on IRC about a year ago, I first
      > tried first the linux nv driver, which was an improvement, but not optimum
      > according to the latency test tool emc has. But the backtrace video was
      > obviously way behind the machine too, rounded or cut across corners bad enough
      > you couldn't believe it for a second.
      >
      > I figured I couldn't get more generic than the vesa driver, and since the nv
      > driver was obviously too slow, I tried the vesa driver just for S&G. It
      > worked, worked very well, and is still working very well for me. Since you
      > are running mach, I assume its also windows, so it may not correlate, but it
      > might be educational to try it.
      >
      > FWIW, with the 425's, 20 IPM is pretty far down the torque curve, I can't get
      > full force at more than 7 to 8 IPM. It will move at 30 IPM with slow accels
      > and decels, but 8 is it pushing down on a 5/8" freshly sharpened Forstner
      > style bit, peck drilling in white pine with the spindle current at over 50% @
      > 1100 rpm, an inch deep in 3 passes.
      >
      > --
      > Cheers, Gene
      > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
      > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
      > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
      > WHO sees a BEACH BUNNY sobbing on a SHAG RUG?!
      >
      Thanks for the reply Gene, ok so you think it may be the video driver?
      can the video driver be turned off, the comp is just dedicated to the machine, I tried plugging the machine into the wall socket and had no change so the extension was not the problem, I turned the acceleration' s down to 1 and made no change. Like I said it will cut air at high speed of 160 imp without stalling but as soon as it plunges into the wood it stall's. I doubt its resonance. I checked every were for binding and every thing is fine. I unplugged the game pad while running mach3 and the machine started to take off on its own until I shut off the machine, so that was weird.Ill try to shut off the video card if I can figure out how, If any one has any more ides's please be my guest and do tell. Thanks.

      Graham



















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • grahamshere
      ... Graham
      Message 2 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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        --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com, Tony Hoodak <mjrjetfan2@...> wrote:
        >
        > My first reaction after reading this thread is that there is an issue with the leadscrew somewhere. You mentioned you checked this for binding. How did you perform the check? I noticed that on my router, I can move at rapid (say 50 IPM) but the leadscrew performance won't allow me to machine anywhere near that speed (when cutting wood or even MDF). I haven't tried cutting anything like plastic or foam at this point to see if there is a significant difference.
        >
        > --- On Fri, 5/1/09, grahamshere <gprinn@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: grahamshere <gprinn@...>
        > Subject: [Xylotex] Re: torque problem
        > To: Xylotex@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Friday, May 1, 2009, 4:27 AM
        >
        > Hey Tony, thanks for the reply, I hate this yahoo thing, I never know were the start the message. Any way how I checked is by moving the screws by hand, If they move good then I'm guessing they don't bind, plus I'm sure it's torque problem, I can run the code while cutting air and it runs fine but if I hold the gantry or just place my hand on to it it stalls. I have a feeling it might be a verf problem, I have 2 multimeter s ones dig and the other analog, not sure if the dig one is reading right and I,m not to good with the analog.
        Graham
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups .com, Gene Heskett <gene.heskett@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > On Thursday 30 April 2009, grahamshere wrote:
        > > >--- In Xylotex@yahoogroups .com, "grahamshere" <gprinn@> wrote:
        > > >> Hey guys, Wondering if I could get some help, I seem to be losing torque,
        > > >> don't know if it's the drivers or not, I have the 3 axis board with 425 oz
        > > >> motors. running mach3 (latest ver) pent4 2 ghz 2 gig ram. I have my verf
        > > >> set at 3.60 the highest I can. I installed dampeners which help with the
        > > >> speed, I had it running 300 imp fine but once I apply any pressure on the
        > > >> gantry it stalls, it does this even at 20 imp, I use a Microsoft game pad
        > > >> to move the machine and it become worse, has way less torque. It works
        > > >> fine when cutting air but once the router plunges into the wood and about
        > > >> 10 seconds later it stalls. If I can get this to work right I'll be a very
        > > >> happy man. Thanks for any help. Graham
        > > >
        > > >Hi again. I am wondering if have every thing connected to a extension cord
        > > > be the problem, every thing meaning computer, monitor, lights. I,m sure the
        > > > driver is good just something causing it to stall.Could something in mach3
        > > > be doing it? I ran the test and the line was straight with very little
        > > > spiking. If you can please give advice, need my machine working. thanks..
        > > > Graham
        > >
        > > The ext cord, if its big enough, should not be a problem.
        > >
        > > However, it has come to my attention that the video driver nvidia supplies is
        > > a latency hog, not giving the system back to the machine controller for many
        > > milliseconds at a time. This screws with the regularity of the stepper
        > > pulses, making the motors sound ragged and can lead to exactly what you are
        > > reporting. The motor will not get a pulse in time, so it recoils back to the
        > > center position of that step or beyond, and is then effectively stopped when
        > > the steps resume at normal pace, the motor can't possibly get back to speed in
        > > one step, so it hangs instead.
        > >
        > > I run linux, and emc, and after a long night on IRC about a year ago, I first
        > > tried first the linux nv driver, which was an improvement, but not optimum
        > > according to the latency test tool emc has. But the backtrace video was
        > > obviously way behind the machine too, rounded or cut across corners bad enough
        > > you couldn't believe it for a second.
        > >
        > > I figured I couldn't get more generic than the vesa driver, and since the nv
        > > driver was obviously too slow, I tried the vesa driver just for S&G. It
        > > worked, worked very well, and is still working very well for me. Since you
        > > are running mach, I assume its also windows, so it may not correlate, but it
        > > might be educational to try it.
        > >
        > > FWIW, with the 425's, 20 IPM is pretty far down the torque curve, I can't get
        > > full force at more than 7 to 8 IPM. It will move at 30 IPM with slow accels
        > > and decels, but 8 is it pushing down on a 5/8" freshly sharpened Forstner
        > > style bit, peck drilling in white pine with the spindle current at over 50% @
        > > 1100 rpm, an inch deep in 3 passes.
        > >
        > > --
        > > Cheers, Gene
        > > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
        > > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
        > > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
        > > WHO sees a BEACH BUNNY sobbing on a SHAG RUG?!
        > >
        > Thanks for the reply Gene, ok so you think it may be the video driver?
        > can the video driver be turned off, the comp is just dedicated to the machine, I tried plugging the machine into the wall socket and had no change so the extension was not the problem, I turned the acceleration' s down to 1 and made no change. Like I said it will cut air at high speed of 160 imp without stalling but as soon as it plunges into the wood it stall's. I doubt its resonance. I checked every were for binding and every thing is fine. I unplugged the game pad while running mach3 and the machine started to take off on its own until I shut off the machine, so that was weird.Ill try to shut off the video card if I can figure out how, If any one has any more ides's please be my guest and do tell. Thanks.
        >
        > Graham
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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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      • Kevin Meinert
        ... just put it someplace in the open, away from the s, where people can find it. when you checked if they move by hand, did you also apply a load at the
        Message 3 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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          >> I hate this yahoo thing, I never know were the start the message.
          just put it someplace in the open, away from the >'s, where people can find
          it.


          when you checked if they move by hand, did you also apply a load at the same
          time?

          i.e. if the screws were ungreased, they'd bind under load...

          ---
          kevin meinert | http://www.subatomicglue.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • grahamshere
          ... I have never greased my screws, would,nt they get messed up with the dust and all, do you grease your s ? What type of grease do you use? Graham
          Message 4 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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            --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Meinert <kevin@...> wrote:
            >
            > >> I hate this yahoo thing, I never know were the start the message.
            > just put it someplace in the open, away from the >'s, where people can find
            > it.
            >
            >
            > when you checked if they move by hand, did you also apply a load at the same
            > time?
            >
            > i.e. if the screws were ungreased, they'd bind under load...
            >
            > ---
            > kevin meinert | http://www.subatomicglue.com
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            I have never greased my screws, would,nt they get messed up with the dust and all, do you grease your's ? What type of grease do you use?

            Graham
          • Kevin Meinert
            ... and all, do you grease your s ? ... I have allthread screws, and I use bicycle grease. Phil brand to be exact. Green tube... find it in your local
            Message 5 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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              >> I have never greased my screws, would,nt they get messed up with the dust
              and all, do you grease your's ?
              >> What type of grease do you use?

              I have allthread screws, and I use bicycle grease. "Phil" brand to be
              exact. Green tube... find it in your local bike shop.

              There's probably more CNCy types of grease, but this worked for me...

              Mine are pure metal grinding on metal without, so it's necessary. If you
              have fancy ball-bearings on the screw channels, it's possible you don't need
              extra grease... ? no idea, never played with that type before.

              ---
              kevin meinert | http://www.subatomicglue.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • grahamshere
              ... I have high lead screws (ame) with plastic nuts,(nylon) which I should change to derlin. not sure if that s spelt right? So as far as I know you don t
              Message 6 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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                --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Meinert <kevin@...> wrote:
                >
                > >> I have never greased my screws, would,nt they get messed up with the dust
                > and all, do you grease your's ?
                > >> What type of grease do you use?
                >
                > I have allthread screws, and I use bicycle grease. "Phil" brand to be
                > exact. Green tube... find it in your local bike shop.
                >
                > There's probably more CNCy types of grease, but this worked for me...
                >
                > Mine are pure metal grinding on metal without, so it's necessary. If you
                > have fancy ball-bearings on the screw channels, it's possible you don't need
                > extra grease... ? no idea, never played with that type before.
                >
                > ---
                > kevin meinert | http://www.subatomicglue.com
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                I have high lead screws (ame) with plastic nuts,(nylon) which I should change to derlin. not sure if that's spelt right? So as far as I know you don't need to grease plastic as there self lubricated.

                Graham
              • Kevin Meinert
                ... change to derlin. ... grease plastic as there self lubricated. well, I guess if you put a load on it (push the gantry with your hand), while turning the
                Message 7 of 19 , May 1, 2009
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                  >> I have high lead screws (ame) with plastic nuts,(nylon) which I should
                  change to derlin.
                  >> not sure if that's spelt right? So as far as I know you don't need to
                  grease plastic as there self lubricated.


                  well, I guess if you put a load on it (push the gantry with your hand),
                  while turning the screws by hand, and it's still silky smooth, then you know
                  lubrication's not the problem... i.e. that it's not binding up under the
                  load...


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • grahamshere
                  ... Well I got a new mutimeter and rechecked the verf, was 3.5 so I changed it to 3.6 but made no difference, then swapped computers and that made no
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 2, 2009
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                    --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Meinert <kevin@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >> I have high lead screws (ame) with plastic nuts,(nylon) which I should
                    > change to derlin.
                    > >> not sure if that's spelt right? So as far as I know you don't need to
                    > grease plastic as there self lubricated.
                    >
                    >
                    > well, I guess if you put a load on it (push the gantry with your hand),
                    > while turning the screws by hand, and it's still silky smooth, then you know
                    > lubrication's not the problem... i.e. that it's not binding up under the
                    > load...
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    Well I got a new mutimeter and rechecked the verf, was 3.5 so I changed it to 3.6 but made no difference, then swapped computers and that made no difference as well so I have no idea what to do next. Help.

                    Graham
                  • Kevin Meinert
                    ... know ... what was the result of doing this? would be nice to eliminate this as a potential problem. you should be able to feel it getting sticky if the
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 2, 2009
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                      >> Well I got a new mutimeter and rechecked the verf, was 3.5 so I changed
                      >> it to 3.6 but made no difference, then swapped computers and that made
                      >> no difference as well so I have no idea what to do next. Help.

                      > put a load on it (push the gantry with your hand),
                      > while turning the screws by hand, and it's still silky smooth, then you
                      know
                      > lubrication's not the problem... i.e. that it's not binding up under the
                      > load...

                      what was the result of doing this? would be nice to eliminate this as a
                      potential problem. you should be able to feel it getting sticky if the
                      screws are binding only under load...


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • grahamshere
                      ... They all move good under load when moving by hand, I dont know if my dampener s really work or not, if I remove them there is no difference in rapids. they
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 2, 2009
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                        --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Meinert <kevin@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >> Well I got a new mutimeter and rechecked the verf, was 3.5 so I changed
                        > >> it to 3.6 but made no difference, then swapped computers and that made
                        > >> no difference as well so I have no idea what to do next. Help.
                        >
                        > > put a load on it (push the gantry with your hand),
                        > > while turning the screws by hand, and it's still silky smooth, then you
                        > know
                        > > lubrication's not the problem... i.e. that it's not binding up under the
                        > > load...
                        >
                        > what was the result of doing this? would be nice to eliminate this as a
                        > potential problem. you should be able to feel it getting sticky if the
                        > screws are binding only under load...
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        They all move good under load when moving by hand, I dont know if my dampener's really work or not, if I remove them there is no difference in rapids. they move fine while jogging the machine around but once there's load applied that's when they stall, so that would me I do not have a resonance problem right?

                        Graham
                      • Kevin Meinert
                        ... dampener s really ... fine while jogging ... so that would me ... does it stall out when 1.) router turned off and 2.) doing some air paths, and 3.)
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 2, 2009
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                          >> They all move good under load when moving by hand, I dont know if my
                          dampener's really
                          >> work or not, if I remove them there is no difference in rapids. they move
                          fine while jogging
                          >> the machine around but once there's load applied that's when they stall,
                          so that would me
                          >> I do not have a resonance problem right?

                          does it stall out when 1.) router turned off and 2.) doing some air paths,
                          and 3.) putting a load on "by hand", pushing against the motion of the
                          gantry/carriage, etc...

                          Wondering if the router's introducing some noise into stepper control
                          lines...

                          Also, you mentioned rapids were good, what if you slow your rapids down to
                          your milling speed. do they then start to bind? wondering if the
                          resonance is more pronounced at a certain speed.

                          what kind of dampers do you have?


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • grahamshere
                          ... HI, no it doesn t stall while cutting air, only if I apply a small amount of force on the gantry, even with the router off. I use my cutting speed as my
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 3, 2009
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                            --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Meinert <kevin@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >> They all move good under load when moving by hand, I dont know if my
                            > dampener's really
                            > >> work or not, if I remove them there is no difference in rapids. they move
                            > fine while jogging
                            > >> the machine around but once there's load applied that's when they stall,
                            > so that would me
                            > >> I do not have a resonance problem right?
                            >
                            > does it stall out when 1.) router turned off and 2.) doing some air paths,
                            > and 3.) putting a load on "by hand", pushing against the motion of the
                            > gantry/carriage, etc...
                            >
                            > Wondering if the router's introducing some noise into stepper control
                            > lines...
                            >
                            > Also, you mentioned rapids were good, what if you slow your rapids down to
                            > your milling speed. do they then start to bind? wondering if the
                            > resonance is more pronounced at a certain speed.
                            >
                            > what kind of dampers do you have?
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            HI, no it doesn't stall while cutting air, only if I apply a small amount of force on the gantry, even with the router off.
                            I use my cutting speed as my rapids as well, so when I set the gcode in the software the cutting speed is the same as whats set in my mach3 velocity, I do a lot of carving so the bit hardly ever leaves the wood. Well so far at least I squared the machine off, that took me all night to do. wonder if something is blown, but if it was it wouldn't work at all would it? Thanks for helping Kevin. Graham
                          • Ron Thompson
                            I think you may be trying to run too fast. What does it do if you slow it to normal cutting speeds? Steppers have the most torque at slow speeds. ... -- Ron
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 3, 2009
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                              I think you may be trying to run too fast. What does it do if you slow
                              it to normal cutting speeds?
                              Steppers have the most torque at slow speeds.

                              grahamshere wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Xylotex%40yahoogroups.com>, Kevin
                              > Meinert <kevin@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > >> They all move good under load when moving by hand, I dont know if my
                              > > dampener's really
                              > > >> work or not, if I remove them there is no difference in rapids.
                              > they move
                              > > fine while jogging
                              > > >> the machine around but once there's load applied that's when they
                              > stall,
                              > > so that would me
                              > > >> I do not have a resonance problem right?
                              > >
                              > > does it stall out when 1.) router turned off and 2.) doing some air
                              > paths,
                              > > and 3.) putting a load on "by hand", pushing against the motion of the
                              > > gantry/carriage, etc...
                              > >
                              > > Wondering if the router's introducing some noise into stepper control
                              > > lines...
                              > >
                              > > Also, you mentioned rapids were good, what if you slow your rapids
                              > down to
                              > > your milling speed. do they then start to bind? wondering if the
                              > > resonance is more pronounced at a certain speed.
                              > >
                              > > what kind of dampers do you have?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > HI, no it doesn't stall while cutting air, only if I apply a small
                              > amount of force on the gantry, even with the router off.
                              > I use my cutting speed as my rapids as well, so when I set the gcode in
                              > the software the cutting speed is the same as whats set in my mach3
                              > velocity, I do a lot of carving so the bit hardly ever leaves the wood.
                              > Well so far at least I squared the machine off, that took me all night
                              > to do. wonder if something is blown, but if it was it wouldn't work at
                              > all would it? Thanks for helping Kevin. Graham
                              >
                              >

                              --


                              Ron Thompson
                              Riding my '07 XL883C Sportster
                              On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast,
                              right beside the Kennedy Space Center,
                              USA

                              http://www.plansandprojects.com
                              My hobby pages are here:
                              http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/

                              Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
                              http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/

                              Add yourself to the member map here:
                              http://www.frappr.com/castinghobby

                              Want to have some fun? The next time you're at McDonald's, wait until
                              the kid has your change ready and then say "Wait, I've got the two cents."
                              -Ron Thompson
                            • grahamshere
                              ... I lower the speeds and see, you may be right. thanks . Graham
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 3, 2009
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                                --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com, Ron Thompson <barebooger@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I think you may be trying to run too fast. What does it do if you slow
                                > it to normal cutting speeds?
                                > Steppers have the most torque at slow speeds.
                                >
                                > grahamshere wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In Xylotex@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Xylotex%40yahoogroups.com>, Kevin
                                > > Meinert <kevin@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > >> They all move good under load when moving by hand, I dont know if my
                                > > > dampener's really
                                > > > >> work or not, if I remove them there is no difference in rapids.
                                > > they move
                                > > > fine while jogging
                                > > > >> the machine around but once there's load applied that's when they
                                > > stall,
                                > > > so that would me
                                > > > >> I do not have a resonance problem right?
                                > > >
                                > > > does it stall out when 1.) router turned off and 2.) doing some air
                                > > paths,
                                > > > and 3.) putting a load on "by hand", pushing against the motion of the
                                > > > gantry/carriage, etc...
                                > > >
                                > > > Wondering if the router's introducing some noise into stepper control
                                > > > lines...
                                > > >
                                > > > Also, you mentioned rapids were good, what if you slow your rapids
                                > > down to
                                > > > your milling speed. do they then start to bind? wondering if the
                                > > > resonance is more pronounced at a certain speed.
                                > > >
                                > > > what kind of dampers do you have?
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > > HI, no it doesn't stall while cutting air, only if I apply a small
                                > > amount of force on the gantry, even with the router off.
                                > > I use my cutting speed as my rapids as well, so when I set the gcode in
                                > > the software the cutting speed is the same as whats set in my mach3
                                > > velocity, I do a lot of carving so the bit hardly ever leaves the wood.
                                > > Well so far at least I squared the machine off, that took me all night
                                > > to do. wonder if something is blown, but if it was it wouldn't work at
                                > > all would it? Thanks for helping Kevin. Graham
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > --
                                >
                                >
                                > Ron Thompson
                                > Riding my '07 XL883C Sportster
                                > On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast,
                                > right beside the Kennedy Space Center,
                                > USA
                                >
                                > http://www.plansandprojects.com
                                > My hobby pages are here:
                                > http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/
                                >
                                > Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
                                > http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/
                                >
                                > Add yourself to the member map here:
                                > http://www.frappr.com/castinghobby
                                >
                                > Want to have some fun? The next time you're at McDonald's, wait until
                                > the kid has your change ready and then say "Wait, I've got the two cents."
                                > -Ron Thompson
                                >
                                I lower the speeds and see, you may be right. thanks . Graham
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