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Damaged integrated circuit controll unit Super X3

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  • michelcoenen317
    Hi everybody, My name is Michel Coenen and i am new to this group. I am living in Holland. Since some years i have a Super X3 mill from the Sieg group imported
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 3, 2012
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      Hi everybody,

      My name is Michel Coenen and i am new to this group.
      I am living in Holland.
      Since some years i have a Super X3 mill from the Sieg group imported via a dealer with the company name: Huvema.
      I enjoy working with this mill, it is ideal for a hobbyist as i am.
      The mill is fitted with an 1 KW brushless DC motor.
      Main supply is 230 V AC, but directly converted to 110 V via a transformer inside.

      A couple of months ago something exploded in de motor controll unit, while running idle.
      Nothing else has been damaged, no short circuits or otherwise are visible.
      It appeared to be an 8 pins integrated circuit.
      Because of the damage identification was not possible anymore.
      However, closer examination revealed that also other Ics (not damaged) did not have an identification number.
      Some former collegues now working in Ic manufacturing, told me that it is quite a common practice in China that scrapped Ics (no identification number) still are used by contractors to manufacture products!

      As a first step i contacted the Sieg group in China and they replied very quickly.
      They send me an electrical diagram but unfortunately my execution was different.
      Some photograps of the mill and controll unit were necessary.
      A couple of days after sending them, i did get the answer: this controll unit was not manufactured in their plant. I had to contact the dealer (Huvema) for further assistance.

      So i did. Many mail and 6 weeks later i still had not received any diagram or identification of the damaged component.
      In fact they refused to give me any information and instead i could order a new controll unit for
      approximately 550 $.
      This is absolutely ridiculous. Very very customer unfriendly!

      So I hope that some of you guys can provide me with some information about the controll unit and its components.
      I would appreciate this very much.
      I have got pictures available but I am not sure how to send them.

      Best regards:
      Michel Coenen
    • Andrew
      Michel, The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in Australia and
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 3, 2012
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        Michel,

        The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in
        the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in
        Australia and he has been very helpful in similar matters to me.

        I suspect the controller may be the same as use in the US which would
        make it an "off the shelf" replacement.

        Best of luck with this and hope you have a positive, speedy result.

        Cheers,

        Andrew in Melbourne

        On 03/10/12 23:56, michelcoenen317 wrote:
        > Hi everybody,
        >
        > My name is Michel Coenen and i am new to this group.
        > I am living in Holland.
        > Since some years i have a Super X3 mill from the Sieg group imported via a dealer with the company name: Huvema.
        > I enjoy working with this mill, it is ideal for a hobbyist as i am.
        > The mill is fitted with an 1 KW brushless DC motor.
        > Main supply is 230 V AC, but directly converted to 110 V via a transformer inside.
        >
        > A couple of months ago something exploded in de motor controll unit, while running idle.
        > Nothing else has been damaged, no short circuits or otherwise are visible.
        > It appeared to be an 8 pins integrated circuit.
        > Because of the damage identification was not possible anymore.
        > However, closer examination revealed that also other Ics (not damaged) did not have an identification number.
        > Some former collegues now working in Ic manufacturing, told me that it is quite a common practice in China that scrapped Ics (no identification number) still are used by contractors to manufacture products!
        >
        > As a first step i contacted the Sieg group in China and they replied very quickly.
        > They send me an electrical diagram but unfortunately my execution was different.
        > Some photograps of the mill and controll unit were necessary.
        > A couple of days after sending them, i did get the answer: this controll unit was not manufactured in their plant. I had to contact the dealer (Huvema) for further assistance.
        >
        > So i did. Many mail and 6 weeks later i still had not received any diagram or identification of the damaged component.
        > In fact they refused to give me any information and instead i could order a new controll unit for
        > approximately 550 $.
        > This is absolutely ridiculous. Very very customer unfriendly!
        >
        > So I hope that some of you guys can provide me with some information about the controll unit and its components.
        > I would appreciate this very much.
        > I have got pictures available but I am not sure how to send them.
        >
        > Best regards:
        > Michel Coenen
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • ketanswali1
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 4, 2012
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          --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "michelcoenen317" <michel.coenen@...> wrote:
          > However, closer examination revealed that also other Ics (not damaged) did not have an identification number.
          > Some former collegues now working in Ic manufacturing, told me that it is quite a common practice in China that scrapped Ics (no identification number) still are used by contractors to manufacture products!

          *** So what is your point?. If the maker of the board does not want you to interfier with the circuit board, it is his perogative. There are plenty of un-qualified people out there tring to do repairs. Also, there are plenty of people within China trying to rip-off each others ideas. Everyone has a mouth to feed. So, with the greatest of respect, I fail to see the point of your "!".

          >
          > As a first step i contacted the Sieg group in China and they replied very quickly.
          > They send me an electrical diagram but unfortunately my execution was different.

          *** What electrical diagram did they send you. As far as I am aware, they are not allowed to release detailed ciruit diagrams to anyone, as the circuit board is propriatory to SIEG/sub-component manufacturer. So, I am a little bit puzzled about this comment you have made.

          > Some photograps of the mill and controll unit were necessary.
          > A couple of days after sending them, i did get the answer: this controll unit was not manufactured in their plant. I had to contact the dealer (Huvema) for further assistance.
          >
          *** Please clarify. If possible, post the picture of the control board here, or, email me the picture, to: ketan@..., so that I can see what you are referring to. Its either a SIEG machine you have with the correct SIEG control board, or, it is not.

          > So i did. Many mail and 6 weeks later i still had not received any diagram or identification of the damaged component.
          > In fact they refused to give me any information and instead i could order a new controll unit for
          > approximately 550 $.
          > This is absolutely ridiculous. Very very customer unfriendly!

          *** So six weeks after you contacted Huvema, they said that they can supply you the board at about US$550.00. First, I would respectfully say that SIEG did the correct thing of referring you to the dealer. It is not SIEG policy to allow customers "to repear" circuit boards. I am aware that there are people out there who can reverse engineer and fix these problems. This is up to them, but not somthing that SIEG or its dealers will promote. Second, the cost of the board at US$550.00 seems high. However, I cannot speak on behalf of Huvema. I cannot see this machine on Huvema's website, unless I am looking in the wrong place. So, it is important to figure out what the control board you have looks like, before I could pass any comment. Do you have the original SIEG manual?. In the manual, is it referred to as an SX3 - Part 217 PC Board?.
          >
          > So I hope that some of you guys can provide me with some information about the controll unit and its components.
          > I would appreciate this very much.
          > I have got pictures available but I am not sure how to send them.
          >
          > Best regards:
          > Michel Coenen
          >
        • lists
          In article , ... Not sure what you are trying to suggest here but the removal or obscuring of original manufactures part numbers, or
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 4, 2012
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            In article <k4hg65+j9qj@...>,
            michelcoenen317 <michel.coenen@...> wrote:
            > However, closer examination revealed that also other Ics (not damaged)
            > did not have an identification number. Some former collegues now
            > working in Ic manufacturing, told me that it is quite a common practice
            > in China that scrapped Ics (no identification number) still are used by
            > contractors to manufacture products!

            Not sure what you are trying to suggest here but the removal or obscuring
            of original manufactures part numbers, or the use of "in house" part
            numbers is very common in commercial equipment and always has been.

            If the company is large enough the latter may be custom parts.

            --
            Stuart
            http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html
          • stevenson_engineers
            US boards are different to European boards. US is on 110 volt. John S.
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 4, 2012
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              US boards are different to European boards.
              US is on 110 volt.

              John S.

              --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Michel,
              >
              > The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in
              > the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in
              > Australia and he has been very helpful in similar matters to me.
              >
              > I suspect the controller may be the same as use in the US which would
              > make it an "off the shelf" replacement.
              >
              > Best of luck with this and hope you have a positive, speedy result.
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Andrew in Melbourne
            • Andrew
              John, Yes, the US does run on 110vac. Little machine shop also carry 230vac controllers and power feed units for the X table. It is worth an email. Regards,
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 4, 2012
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                John,

                Yes, the US does run on 110vac. Little machine shop also carry 230vac
                controllers and power feed units for the X table. It is worth an email.

                Regards,

                Andrew in Melbourne


                On 05/10/12 05:18, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                > US boards are different to European boards.
                > US is on 110 volt.
                >
                > John S.
                >
                > --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@...> wrote:
                >> Michel,
                >>
                >> The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in
                >> the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in
                >> Australia and he has been very helpful in similar matters to me.
                >>
                >> I suspect the controller may be the same as use in the US which would
                >> make it an "off the shelf" replacement.
                >>
                >> Best of luck with this and hope you have a positive, speedy result.
                >>
                >> Cheers,
                >>
                >> Andrew in Melbourne
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • stevenson_engineers
                But why would anyone want to deal with the US, pay high shipping and import duties when the card can be had from a local agent ? And chances are it may not be
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 5, 2012
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                  But why would anyone want to deal with the US, pay high shipping and import duties when the card can be had from a local agent ?

                  And chances are it may not be the right card anyway ?

                  John S.

                  --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > John,
                  >
                  > Yes, the US does run on 110vac. Little machine shop also carry 230vac
                  > controllers and power feed units for the X table. It is worth an email.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Andrew in Melbourne
                  >
                  >
                  > On 05/10/12 05:18, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                  > > US boards are different to European boards.
                  > > US is on 110 volt.
                  > >
                  > > John S.
                  > >
                  > > --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@> wrote:
                  > >> Michel,
                  > >>
                  > >> The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in
                  > >> the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in
                  > >> Australia and he has been very helpful in similar matters to me.
                  > >>
                  > >> I suspect the controller may be the same as use in the US which would
                  > >> make it an "off the shelf" replacement.
                  > >>
                  > >> Best of luck with this and hope you have a positive, speedy result.
                  > >>
                  > >> Cheers,
                  > >>
                  > >> Andrew in Melbourne
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Andrew
                  John, With all due respect. I was under the impression the local agent was not able to assist. Cheers, Andrew in Melbourne.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 5, 2012
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                    John,

                    With all due respect. I was under the impression the local agent was not
                    able to assist.

                    Cheers,

                    Andrew in Melbourne.

                    On 06/10/12 08:16, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                    > But why would anyone want to deal with the US, pay high shipping and import duties when the card can be had from a local agent ?
                    >
                    > And chances are it may not be the right card anyway ?
                    >
                    > John S.
                    >
                    > --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@...> wrote:
                    >> John,
                    >>
                    >> Yes, the US does run on 110vac. Little machine shop also carry 230vac
                    >> controllers and power feed units for the X table. It is worth an email.
                    >>
                    >> Regards,
                    >>
                    >> Andrew in Melbourne
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On 05/10/12 05:18, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                    >>> US boards are different to European boards.
                    >>> US is on 110 volt.
                    >>>
                    >>> John S.
                    >>>
                    >>> --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@> wrote:
                    >>>> Michel,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in
                    >>>> the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in
                    >>>> Australia and he has been very helpful in similar matters to me.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> I suspect the controller may be the same as use in the US which would
                    >>>> make it an "off the shelf" replacement.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Best of luck with this and hope you have a positive, speedy result.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Cheers,
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Andrew in Melbourne
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> ------------------------------------
                    >>>
                    >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • stevenson_engineers
                    Andrew, I was replying more in keeping with Ketans reply, he s in the UK which is far nearer than the US and part of the EU and so any cards will share the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                      Andrew,
                      I was replying more in keeping with Ketans reply, he's in the UK which is far nearer than the US and part of the EU and so any cards will share the same voltage.

                      One point not mentioned but I guessing is the age of the machine.
                      The early SX3's had a poorly designed card fitted in that there was no low end torque so a new card would be to the users advantage if this is the case.

                      Another point is that these generic cards for the brushless motors are programmed to suit the application. The KX series of CNC machines have far higher top speeds but less torque to suit small cutters as opposed to big fly cutters that you would use on a manual machine.

                      Even if you knew the chip number where would you get the programming info for it ?

                      As regards manufactures doing this then it's very common. try dealing with say Fanuc or Siemens, you have the same problem but with one ot two zeros on the end of the prices, plus they want a credit card number to even talk to you.

                      John S.

                      --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > John,
                      >
                      > With all due respect. I was under the impression the local agent was not
                      > able to assist.
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > Andrew in Melbourne.
                      >
                      > On 06/10/12 08:16, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                      > > But why would anyone want to deal with the US, pay high shipping and import duties when the card can be had from a local agent ?
                      > >
                      > > And chances are it may not be the right card anyway ?
                      > >
                      > > John S.
                      > >
                      > > --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@> wrote:
                      > >> John,
                      > >>
                      > >> Yes, the US does run on 110vac. Little machine shop also carry 230vac
                      > >> controllers and power feed units for the X table. It is worth an email.
                      > >>
                      > >> Regards,
                      > >>
                      > >> Andrew in Melbourne
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> On 05/10/12 05:18, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                      > >>> US boards are different to European boards.
                      > >>> US is on 110 volt.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> John S.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@> wrote:
                      > >>>> Michel,
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in
                      > >>>> the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in
                      > >>>> Australia and he has been very helpful in similar matters to me.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> I suspect the controller may be the same as use in the US which would
                      > >>>> make it an "off the shelf" replacement.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Best of luck with this and hope you have a positive, speedy result.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Cheers,
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Andrew in Melbourne
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>> ------------------------------------
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • ketanswali1
                      ... Hi Andrew, I think the point is that Michel is after a circuit diagram. He may or may not find one. I don t think he wants to buy one. From the information
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                        --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > John,
                        >
                        > With all due respect. I was under the impression the local agent was not
                        > able to assist.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > Andrew in Melbourne.

                        Hi Andrew,

                        I think the point is that Michel is after a circuit diagram. He may or may not find one. I don't think he wants to buy one. From the information I have, Huvema used to buy SX3s from SIEG, but has stopped buying this machine from them for around five years. I can hardly see any SIEG machines on their website. If this is the case, there are other SIEG dealers in Holland and in Europe who can help, including ARC.

                        Replacement boards are not as expensive Michel suggests. However, someone can only help him if he shows the pictures of the board he has. His comments on this subject in his original post are confusing. He has been asked for clarification, to which someone can respond if he shows the pictures. I have failed to receive any pictures from him. May be he has taken up your suggestion to contact LMS.

                        He can buy the board from whoever he wants. Be it LMS or someone else. In your post, you suggest that LMS MAY be able to help. LMS may be able to help with a replacement board, but they certainly will not be able to help him with a circuit diagram. If they somehow manage to provide him with a circuit diagram, then this would be against SIEG policy, as it is not supposed to be released to any dealers.

                        For your information, if the board is SX3-#217, and if such a correctly specified component was requested in the U.K., it would cost the U.K. buyer – delivered in the U.K. including local taxes, between US$185.00 to US$250.00 based on current purchasing rates.

                        LMS may be able to supply him with a replacement board, but without knowing what Michel really has, with the greatest of respect, we are all just p***ing in the wind and wasting each others time.

                        The only reason I have come on to this post is to make sure that Michels comments do not lead to further confusion.

                        Ketan at ARC.
                      • ketanswali1
                        ... Also, the above prices depend on wheter the original SX3 has been purchased from ARC or not. ARC tries their best to support customers who have purchased
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                          > For your information, if the board is SX3-#217, and if such a correctly specified component was requested in the U.K., it would cost the U.K. buyer – delivered in the U.K. including local taxes, between US$185.00 to US$250.00 based on current purchasing rates.
                          >

                          Also, the above prices depend on wheter the original SX3 has been purchased from ARC or not. ARC tries their best to support customers who have purchased the machine from them, with a more favourable price for replacement components. So, such cutomers would get the board at around US$185.00, and the buyers who have purchased the machine from elsewhere can buy the board from us at around US$250.00, currently.

                          All boards are tested before dispatch. As a component, they do not come with warranty. In Michels case, if the machine is over five years old, and if the board has blown due to a fault elsewhwere, there is a chance that a new board will also blow - hence not covered by warranty. Also, we do not know if the original board 'blew' because of some experimentation, say for example during trying to convert it to CNC, or, blowing due to power supply overload. All of these are factors which we have come across over the years. In most cases, customers who have purchased machines from us tell us, because we ask them these questions, amongst others to try and determine the cause.

                          For the current boards - part three years at least, extreamly few boards have failed due to component issue. We are aware of the original SX3s when they came out many moons ago. As John S said, they had problems, so we did not sell them. In fact, we were the first dealer in the world to be sent the original model for testing, and we rejected it. We waited until the problems were solved, so ARC does know more about the history of this machine since birth, then many other dealers.

                          Similarly, Andrew, till date, we do not sell SIEG power feed for good reason. In short - consistent torque issues, and consistant reliability issues over time - especially for the 240v versions. Performance for customers of this product has been 50/50 - not odds that I am prepared to accept. I cannot speak for LMS. We have quite a few test units for the X3/SX3 and SX4 power feed in our machine parts grave yard. We have given away quite a few so called original working units 'free' to regular customers to our warehouse who have purchased the said machines, with the condition that we dont want them back :-). So far, ALL have failed within certain periods of time.

                          Ketan at ARC.
                        • Andrew
                          John, I am wondering if there is a business opportunity for someone to develop a replacement controller with support in Europe to handle the voltages there. I
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                            John,

                            I am wondering if there is a business opportunity for someone to develop
                            a replacement controller with support in Europe to handle the voltages
                            there. I am not an electronics engineer and wish I had a better
                            understanding of things to develop such a board.

                            Dealing with some companies which, like you say, need a credit card
                            number before answering any questions is just bad.

                            Cheers,

                            Andrew


                            On 06/10/12 18:28, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                            > Andrew,
                            > I was replying more in keeping with Ketans reply, he's in the UK which is far nearer than the US and part of the EU and so any cards will share the same voltage.
                            >
                            > One point not mentioned but I guessing is the age of the machine.
                            > The early SX3's had a poorly designed card fitted in that there was no low end torque so a new card would be to the users advantage if this is the case.
                            >
                            > Another point is that these generic cards for the brushless motors are programmed to suit the application. The KX series of CNC machines have far higher top speeds but less torque to suit small cutters as opposed to big fly cutters that you would use on a manual machine.
                            >
                            > Even if you knew the chip number where would you get the programming info for it ?
                            >
                            > As regards manufactures doing this then it's very common. try dealing with say Fanuc or Siemens, you have the same problem but with one ot two zeros on the end of the prices, plus they want a credit card number to even talk to you.
                            >
                            > John S.
                            >
                            > --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@...> wrote:
                            >> John,
                            >>
                            >> With all due respect. I was under the impression the local agent was not
                            >> able to assist.
                            >>
                            >> Cheers,
                            >>
                            >> Andrew in Melbourne.
                            >>
                            >> On 06/10/12 08:16, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                            >>> But why would anyone want to deal with the US, pay high shipping and import duties when the card can be had from a local agent ?
                            >>>
                            >>> And chances are it may not be the right card anyway ?
                            >>>
                            >>> John S.
                            >>>
                            >>> --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@> wrote:
                            >>>> John,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Yes, the US does run on 110vac. Little machine shop also carry 230vac
                            >>>> controllers and power feed units for the X table. It is worth an email.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Regards,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Andrew in Melbourne
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>> On 05/10/12 05:18, stevenson_engineers wrote:
                            >>>>> US boards are different to European boards.
                            >>>>> US is on 110 volt.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> John S.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <akayton1@> wrote:
                            >>>>>> Michel,
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> The only place I would recommend talking to is Little Machine Shop in
                            >>>>>> the US. Chris Woods runs the place and MAY be able to help. I am in
                            >>>>>> Australia and he has been very helpful in similar matters to me.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> I suspect the controller may be the same as use in the US which would
                            >>>>>> make it an "off the shelf" replacement.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Best of luck with this and hope you have a positive, speedy result.
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Cheers,
                            >>>>>>
                            >>>>>> Andrew in Melbourne
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> ------------------------------------
                            >>>
                            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • johann_ohnesorg
                            Go back and search the Group for schematic as a searchword. There was a guy from England who drew the schematic for the 240V version and he was willing to
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                              Go back and search the Group for "schematic" as a searchword. There was a guy from England who drew the schematic for the 240V version and he was willing to share. Could also be that this was over in the X3/C6 group here on Yahoo.
                              Keling automation sells the X3 controller in the US, he also has good connections to the manufacturer.

                              Before you buy a 550$ controller from the Huvema think about a VFD and a 1kW three phase motor adoption. This will give you a shipload of power, easy to alter speed and more bottom speed torque than you ever asked for. You can find other machines that were converted if you search "+VFD +X3 +conversion" on google.

                              Problem is that the X3 uses a brushless motor instead of a brushed DC type. This involves more electronics and is not as repair friendly. Good thing is that those motors are more robust than brushed ones...

                              Cheers,
                              Johann
                            • ketanswali1
                              ... Johann, Before anyone starts to build up any hopes, you are referring to Les s schematic for the X3 board and not the SX3 board. Also, Les knows what he is
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "johann_ohnesorg" <bigdukeone@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Go back and search the Group for "schematic" as a searchword. There was a guy from England who drew the schematic for the 240V version and he was willing to share. Could also be that this was over in the X3/C6 group here on Yahoo.
                                > Keling automation sells the X3 controller in the US, he also has good connections to the manufacturer.
                                >
                                > Before you buy a 550$ controller from the Huvema think about a VFD and a 1kW three phase motor adoption. This will give you a shipload of power, easy to alter speed and more bottom speed torque than you ever asked for. You can find other machines that were converted if you search "+VFD +X3 +conversion" on google.
                                >
                                > Problem is that the X3 uses a brushless motor instead of a brushed DC type. This involves more electronics and is not as repair friendly. Good thing is that those motors are more robust than brushed ones...
                                >
                                > Cheers,
                                > Johann
                                >
                                Johann,

                                Before anyone starts to build up any hopes, you are referring to Les's schematic for the X3 board and not the SX3 board. Also, Les knows what he is doing. He does not have an SX3/board, and even if he did, some of the chips on the SX3 board are specifically programed by the circuit board sub-contractor/supplier to run the brushless motor for speed/torque, as mentioned by John S.

                                For re-clarification, the X3 board is for the brushed motor.
                                The SX3 board is for the brushless motor. Both the boards are totally different.

                                Ketan at ARC.
                              • ketanswali1
                                ... Johann, I am surprised to read that Keling got into selling the X3 controller board. As far as I am aware, he does not have good connections with SIEG. Are
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                  --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "johann_ohnesorg" <bigdukeone@...> wrote:
                                  > Keling automation sells the X3 controller in the US, he also has good connections to the manufacturer.
                                  >

                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Johann
                                  >
                                  Johann,

                                  I am surprised to read that Keling got into selling the X3 controller board. As far as I am aware, he does not have good connections with SIEG. Are you saying that he has good connections with SIEGs sub-contractor?...

                                  On google search, all I can see is information about Keling CNC conversion kit. Can you give me the link to where it says that Keling can supply the X3 control board?

                                  Three phase motor and control board for the X3 has been heavily tested by John S. Whilst in his tests this combination worked well, there were certain speeds at which torque was totally compromised.

                                  The three phase motor and control board should not be an option for the SX3, because the SX3 system of brushless motor and control board are far more robust then any Chinese brushed motor systems for similar sized machines. The brushless motor with correctly programed control board gives consistant torque throught the speed range.

                                  Ketan at ARC.
                                • Les
                                  ... Hi All, I totally support Ketan s comments about the difference between the X3 and SX3 motor control boards. Tracing the schematic for the X3 board just
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                    --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "ketanswali1" <ketan@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "johann_ohnesorg" <bigdukeone@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Go back and search the Group for "schematic" as a searchword. There was a guy from England who drew the schematic for the 240V version and he was willing to share. Could also be that this was over in the X3/C6 group here on Yahoo.
                                    > > Keling automation sells the X3 controller in the US, he also has good connections to the manufacturer.
                                    > >
                                    > > Before you buy a 550$ controller from the Huvema think about a VFD and a 1kW three phase motor adoption. This will give you a shipload of power, easy to alter speed and more bottom speed torque than you ever asked for. You can find other machines that were converted if you search "+VFD +X3 +conversion" on google.
                                    > >
                                    > > Problem is that the X3 uses a brushless motor instead of a brushed DC type. This involves more electronics and is not as repair friendly. Good thing is that those motors are more robust than brushed ones...
                                    > >
                                    > > Cheers,
                                    > > Johann
                                    > >
                                    > Johann,
                                    >
                                    > Before anyone starts to build up any hopes, you are referring to Les's schematic for the X3 board and not the SX3 board. Also, Les knows what he is doing. He does not have an SX3/board, and even if he did, some of the chips on the SX3 board are specifically programed by the circuit board sub-contractor/supplier to run the brushless motor for speed/torque, as mentioned by John S.
                                    >
                                    > For re-clarification, the X3 board is for the brushed motor.
                                    > The SX3 board is for the brushless motor. Both the boards are totally different.
                                    >
                                    > Ketan at ARC.
                                    >

                                    Hi All,
                                    I totally support Ketan's comments about the difference between the X3 and SX3 motor control boards. Tracing the schematic for the X3 board just required patience. All the components in it are easy to obtain and there are no microcontrollers used. Non of the components had the part numbers removed. Even though I have not seen the SX3 controller I believe it will be much more complex. I think the only realistic option is to buy a replacement board. I do not believe it would be cost effective for someone to design an alternative board as they would not sell enough of them to cover the design cost.

                                    Les Jones.
                                  • michelcoenen317
                                    Hello everybody, Thanks for the many reactions i received on my mail from beginning of the week.( Australia, US and Europe) I was not able to deliver a lot of
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 6, 2012
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                                      Hello everybody,

                                      Thanks for the many reactions i received on my mail from beginning of the week.( Australia, US and Europe)
                                      I was not able to deliver a lot of mails with a reply to yours via my personal mail.(unable to deliver)
                                      Thats why i try it again via this Yahoo channel.

                                      A very special thanks to Ned from the Home Machine Shop!
                                      He has been a great help.
                                      It is clear that my exploded component is a Tiny Switch TNY268P.
                                      (Price per piece: 2,14$)
                                      Ned has given me the possibility now to check if the problem is gone with a new component or that something else is wrong.
                                      In any case i have the chance now to proceed with my mill.
                                      Thank you very much Ned.
                                      I will keep you updated.

                                      Best regards: Michel Coenen
                                    • michelcoenen317
                                      Hello everybody, Today i finally received a replacement for my exploded Little Switch TNY268PN. Thanks to Ned from the Home Machine Shop i have been able to
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 25, 2012
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                                        Hello everybody,

                                        Today i finally received a replacement for my exploded Little Switch
                                        TNY268PN.
                                        Thanks to Ned from the Home Machine Shop i have been able to identify this damaged component.
                                        I have put the switch in the socket and guess what? >> my mill is running smoothly again!!!

                                        In the documentation of the Little Switch, i noticed that for cooling reasons the component must be SOLDERED to a CERTAIN AMOUNT of copper on the PCB. In my Super X3 the component is not soldered but in a socket and the amount of copper is less then half of what it should be.
                                        I remember that the day the component exploded, temperature was exceptionally high in Holland and for the first time i operated the mill for a couple of hours (not with high load but during longer period)
                                        So i am pretty much convinced that there is a potential thermal problem in my PCB.
                                        Therefor i have also installed a microfan in the back of the machine close to the Little Switch, in order to prevent future thermal problems.

                                        Well, i am a happy hobbyist because my mill is up and running again.
                                        Problem solved for a couple of euros!

                                        Ned again many thanks!!!

                                        Best regards: Michel Coenen


                                        --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "michelcoenen317" <michel.coenen@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hello everybody,
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for the many reactions i received on my mail from beginning of the week.( Australia, US and Europe)
                                        > I was not able to deliver a lot of mails with a reply to yours via my personal mail.(unable to deliver)
                                        > Thats why i try it again via this Yahoo channel.
                                        >
                                        > A very special thanks to Ned from the Home Machine Shop!
                                        > He has been a great help.
                                        > It is clear that my exploded component is a Tiny Switch TNY268P.
                                        > (Price per piece: 2,14$)
                                        > Ned has given me the possibility now to check if the problem is gone with a new component or that something else is wrong.
                                        > In any case i have the chance now to proceed with my mill.
                                        > Thank you very much Ned.
                                        > I will keep you updated.
                                        >
                                        > Best regards: Michel Coenen
                                        >
                                      • lists
                                        In article , ... In the past, when I have dumped old PCs, I have often prized off the little heatsinks which exist on some of the
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 25, 2012
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                                          In article <k6b4vh+o3u1@...>,
                                          michelcoenen317 <michel.coenen@...> wrote:
                                          > So i am pretty much convinced that there is a potential thermal problem
                                          > in my PCB. Therefor i have also installed a microfan in the back of the
                                          > machine close to the Little Switch, in order to prevent future thermal
                                          > problems.

                                          In the past, when I have dumped old PCs, I have often prized off the
                                          little heatsinks which exist on some of the chips on the motherboard.
                                          Something like that, glued on to the top of the chip, might well help in
                                          this situation

                                          --
                                          Stuart
                                          http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html
                                        • nedtron
                                          Greetings Stuart, Your recommendation of an IC chip heat sink is absolutely correct ! I recommended that Michel install either a purchased or a home made heat
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 27, 2012
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                                            Greetings Stuart,

                                            Your recommendation of an IC chip heat sink is absolutely correct !

                                            I recommended that Michel install either a purchased or a home made heat sink on his replacement Tiny Switch IC.

                                            The earlier generation SX3 circuit board has two socketed ICs, the MC33035 brushless DC motor control IC and the Tiny Switch TNY268P SMPS (switch mode power supply) switch IC and does not contain a microcontroller or a programmable device so the circuit board is very serviceable with readily available off the shelf components.

                                            As the Tiny Switch TNY268P SMPS switch IC was socketed, it possibly suggests that its replacement or failure was expected.

                                            I also recommended that Michel install a cooling fan to provide some air flow for the Tiny Switch IC heat sink.

                                            The later generation SX3 circuit boards have a Viper22 SMPS switch IC mounted directly to the circuit board and do not appear to have SMPS switch IC reliability issues.

                                            The later generation SX3 circuit boards have an Atmel ATmega8 microcontroller and are serviceable with off the shelf parts except for a microcontroller failure due to the required programming of the Atmel ATmega8.

                                            I have seen three SX3 machines with later generation circuit boards experiencing dimming of the front LCD display or no LCD display operation and other abnormalties such as unexpected reversing of the spindle direction.

                                            In each case the culprit was one of the three 5 volt regulator ICs overheating and the addition of coolng fans to the control enclosure eliminated any future problems:

                                            http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_Cooling_Upgrade_1.jpg

                                            http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_Cooling_Upgrade_2.jpg

                                            Due to the Tiny Switch issue on the earlier generation SX3 circuit board and the 5 volt regulator issue on the later generation SX3 circuit boards, I think that enclosure cooling fans are a good practice for SX3 mills.

                                            The SX3 BLDC (Brush Less DC) motor is also repairable:

                                            http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_BLDC_Motor/

                                            Ned

                                            --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, lists <Stuartlists@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > In article <k6b4vh+o3u1@...,
                                            > michelcoenen317 michel.coenen@... wrote:
                                            > > So i am pretty much convinced that there is a potential thermal problem
                                            > > in my PCB. Therefor i have also installed a microfan in the back of the
                                            > > machine close to the Little Switch, in order to prevent future thermal
                                            > > problems.
                                            >
                                            > In the past, when I have dumped old PCs, I have often prized off the
                                            > little heatsinks which exist on some of the chips on the motherboard.
                                            > Something like that, glued on to the top of the chip, might well help in
                                            > this situation
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Stuart
                                            > http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html
                                            >

                                          • michelcoenen317
                                            Hello Stuart, Ned   Sorry for my late reply. Thanks for the advise.   I will install a heat sink as well in order to prevent that things get difficult
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 27, 2012
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                                              Hello Stuart, Ned
                                               
                                              Sorry for my late reply.
                                              Thanks for the advise.
                                               
                                              I will install a heat sink as well in order to prevent that things get difficult again..
                                              (It will be a home made of course, i like to do things with hand and brains)
                                               
                                              The analysis of Ned is interesting to me ( i am a mechanical guy with electronics as a hobby)
                                              Despite that, it shows to me the development of the motor and display controls of a product from just born as a baby via several stages to a mature product.
                                              Maybe also Different interests in different parts of the world play a role in this.( why are there fundamentally different versions of the controller, i do not know)
                                               
                                              Anyway, a good network again proved to be very valuable in order to solve  practical problem in a very efficient way.
                                               
                                              Thanks guys!
                                               
                                              best regards: Michel Coenen 
                                               

                                              --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "nedtron" <ned@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Greetings Stuart,
                                              >
                                              > Your recommendation of an IC chip heat sink is absolutely correct !
                                              >
                                              > I recommended that Michel install either a purchased or a home made heat
                                              > sink on his replacement Tiny Switch IC.
                                              >
                                              > The earlier generation SX3 circuit board has two socketed ICs, the
                                              > MC33035 brushless DC motor control IC and the Tiny Switch TNY268P SMPS
                                              > (switch mode power supply) switch IC and does not contain a
                                              > microcontroller or a programmable device so the circuit board is very
                                              > serviceable with readily available off the shelf components.
                                              >
                                              > As the Tiny Switch TNY268P SMPS switch IC was socketed, it possibly
                                              > suggests that its replacement or failure was expected.
                                              >
                                              > I also recommended that Michel install a cooling fan to provide some air
                                              > flow for the Tiny Switch IC heat sink.
                                              >
                                              > The later generation SX3 circuit boards have a Viper22 SMPS switch IC
                                              > mounted directly to the circuit board and do not appear to have SMPS
                                              > switch IC reliability issues.
                                              >
                                              > The later generation SX3 circuit boards have an Atmel ATmega8
                                              > microcontroller and are serviceable with off the shelf parts except for
                                              > a microcontroller failure due to the required programming of the Atmel
                                              > ATmega8.
                                              >
                                              > I have seen three SX3 machines with later generation circuit boards
                                              > experiencing dimming of the front LCD display or no LCD display
                                              > operation and other abnormalties such as unexpected reversing of the
                                              > spindle direction.
                                              >
                                              > In each case the culprit was one of the three 5 volt regulator ICs
                                              > overheating and the addition of coolng fans to the control enclosure
                                              > eliminated any future problems:
                                              >
                                              > http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_Cooling_Upgrade_1.jpg
                                              > <http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_Cooling_Upgrade_1.jpg>
                                              >
                                              > http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_Cooling_Upgrade_2.jpg
                                              > <http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_Cooling_Upgrade_2.jpg>
                                              >
                                              > Due to the Tiny Switch issue on the earlier generation SX3 circuit board
                                              > and the 5 volt regulator issue on the later generation SX3 circuit
                                              > boards, I think that enclosure cooling fans are a good practice for SX3
                                              > mills.
                                              >
                                              > The SX3 BLDC (Brush Less DC) motor is also repairable:
                                              >
                                              > http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_BLDC_Motor/
                                              > <http://www.home-machine-shop.com/SX3_BLDC_Motor/>
                                              >
                                              > Ned
                                              >
                                              > --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, lists <Stuartlists@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > In article <k6b4vh+o3u1@,
                                              > > michelcoenen317 michel.coenen@ wrote:
                                              > > > So i am pretty much convinced that there is a potential thermal
                                              > problem
                                              > > > in my PCB. Therefor i have also installed a microfan in the back of
                                              > the
                                              > > > machine close to the Little Switch, in order to prevent future
                                              > thermal
                                              > > > problems.
                                              > >
                                              > > In the past, when I have dumped old PCs, I have often prized off the
                                              > > little heatsinks which exist on some of the chips on the motherboard.
                                              > > Something like that, glued on to the top of the chip, might well help
                                              > in
                                              > > this situation
                                              > >
                                              > > --
                                              > > Stuart
                                              > > http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html
                                              > >
                                              >
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