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morse3 or r8

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  • alex4459jopiklal44
    hello group.. I am new member.. live in sonderborg in denmark and I have used a minilathe for a few years ..Now I think of buying a mill I had a mill.. or
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 6, 2011
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      hello group.. I am new member.. live in sonderborg in denmark and I have used a minilathe for a few years ..Now I think of buying a mill

      I had a mill.. or thought so.. the Proxxon BFW40 with BF2000 stand and x table KT150... but each time I try to mill a pice of iron the mill dig into the iron and I have several defect end mills now..So I think of buying the X2 from ARC.. I can see that ARC have replaced the collum with a better than the original.. and maybe you will agree that this is also very important for the best results..
      ARC have one mashine with morsetaper MT3 and another version with R8.

      finaly my question to you all.. what is the best solution of those two
      how do R8 work ..
      hope you will give your thoughts about this and maybe other things to
      take into account when buying a mill
      alex
    • will_cambs_913
      Hi Alex, I asked this exact question from Arceurotrade when I ordered my mill. their response was that R8 fittings fell out when you undid the drawbar
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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        Hi Alex,
        I asked this exact question from Arceurotrade when I ordered my mill.
        their response was that R8 fittings 'fell out' when you undid the drawbar whereas M3 stay sticked until you tapped them with a hammer.

        Thus R8 cause less wear in the bearings as you don't hammer the head to remove them.

        However - it does seem that R8 are less available (i.e. there is a smaller range of suppliers, the range of tools is the same).


        Essentially tapers are designed to do two things - cause alignment and stick (or not stick) in place. The shallow tapers (like the morse taper) stick without load, the aggressive tapers such as those on the head of the R8 do not stick unless loaded with a drawbar.

        Thus you will always see an R8 being used with a drawbar.

        In a mill or a headstock of a lathe you will need to use a drawbar even for the Morse tapers

        --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "alex4459jopiklal44" <christiansen_alex@...> wrote:
        >
        > hello group.. I am new member.. live in sonderborg in denmark and I have used a minilathe for a few years ..Now I think of buying a mill
        >
        > I had a mill.. or thought so.. the Proxxon BFW40 with BF2000 stand and x table KT150... but each time I try to mill a pice of iron the mill dig into the iron and I have several defect end mills now..So I think of buying the X2 from ARC.. I can see that ARC have replaced the collum with a better than the original.. and maybe you will agree that this is also very important for the best results..
        > ARC have one mashine with morsetaper MT3 and another version with R8.
        >
        > finaly my question to you all.. what is the best solution of those two
        > how do R8 work ..
        > hope you will give your thoughts about this and maybe other things to
        > take into account when buying a mill
        > alex
        >
      • reh4105
        I have to tap my R-8 collets loose after I loosen the drawbar... But the MT collets would be harder to get loose.
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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          I have to tap my R-8 collets loose after I loosen the drawbar... But the MT collets would be harder to get loose.

          --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "will_cambs_913" <Will_Munns@...> wrote:
          >

          > their response was that R8 fittings 'fell out' when you undid the drawbar whereas M3 stay sticked until you tapped them with a hammer.
          >
        • ketanswali1
          ... Alex, Some points to note: 1. We have greater demand from customers for R8 then MT3 2. In my opinion, there is no major advantage for MT3 or R8 at this
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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            --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "alex4459jopiklal44" <christiansen_alex@...> wrote:
            >
            > hello group.. I am new member.. live in sonderborg in denmark and I have used a minilathe for a few years ..Now I think of buying a mill
            >
            > I had a mill.. or thought so.. the Proxxon BFW40 with BF2000 stand and x table KT150... but each time I try to mill a pice of iron the mill dig into the iron and I have several defect end mills now..So I think of buying the X2 from ARC.. I can see that ARC have replaced the collum with a better than the original.. and maybe you will agree that this is also very important for the best results..
            > ARC have one mashine with morsetaper MT3 and another version with R8.
            >
            > finaly my question to you all.. what is the best solution of those two
            > how do R8 work ..
            > hope you will give your thoughts about this and maybe other things to
            > take into account when buying a mill
            > alex
            >
            Alex,

            Some points to note:

            1. We have greater demand from customers for R8 then MT3
            2. In my opinion, there is no major advantage for MT3 or R8 at this size of machine which is being considered. For larger size machines, such as the X3 / old Bridgeports, there is definately a preference of R8 over MT3. Yes, you will have to hit the drawbar harder to remove MT3 taper tooling, where as R8 tooling will come out with a light tap.
            3. In the old days, R8 tooling was more expensive, mainly used by industry, where as MT tooling was cheaper, and used by the hobby market. Now days, not much difference in cost in my opinion.
            4. Some of our customers already have MT3 tooling or R8 toolings which helps them to decide which way they will go when choosing a mill.
            5. Some of our customers have a preferred choice of MT3 or R8, which is based on personal experience or opinion. These customers cannot be persuaded to change from one system to another.

            Kind Regards, Ketan @ ARC.
          • nedtron
            Greetings Alex, The R8 (Rockwell #8 taper) collet spindle was the standard used for decades on American made light to medium duty industrial milling machines
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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              Greetings Alex,

              The R8 (Rockwell #8 taper) collet spindle was the standard used for decades on American made light to medium duty industrial milling machines such as the Bridgeport.

              Today's American made CNC industrial milling machines primarily use CAT-V or BT spindles and the R8 spindle is still present on a few industrial manual machines and is common on Asian made machines and hobbyist machines.

              The R8 collet spindle accomodates larger diameter tooling and more torque than a Morse taper #3 spindle.

              The R8 collet spindle includes a key pin that engages a keyway in the R8 collet to prevent slippage or rotation of the collet in the spindle for higher torque applications.

              R8 collets are readily available in the United States and there is far more R8 tooling available in the United States than there is Morse taper #3 tooling.

              Hardinge of New York is the premiere manufacturer of R8 tooling and the current manufacturer of the Bridgeport mills.

              Hardinge manufactures R8 round collets in sizes from 1/64" to 1" in 1/64" increments and R8 metric round collets in sizes from 2mm to 20mm in 1mm increments.

              Hardinge also provides R8 square collets, R8 hex collets and R8 adapters to ER collets and Morse taper tooling:

              http://shophardinge.com/search.aspx?str=r8

              In the United States there are many sources for economical R8 collets which are primarily manufactured in Asia:

              http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=500

              http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-pc-Precision-R-8-Collet-Set/G1646

              http://www.victornet.com/report/Collets-R8/263.html

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com/CDCO_Tools_R8.pdf

              http://www.archcity.net/cutters_r8tooling.html

              The R8 collet spindle will accomodate R8 collets upto 1" and allows use of boring heads, shell mills, face mills, arbor cutters, gear cutters and other cutters with shanks upto 1".

              Video clips of a shell mill making a 1/4" deep single pass cut on the R8 spindle on a Grizzly G0619 (Sieg SX3):

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com/X3_ENCO_VISE_WEB/X3_Mill_Pass-1.AVI

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com/X3_ENCO_VISE_WEB/X3_Mill_Pass-2.AVI

              Video clip of a shell mill on the R8 spindle of a Smithy Granite:

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com/video/Video_Neds/SHELL_MILL_SMITHY.mov

              Video clip of a gear cutter on the R8 spindle of a Smithy Granite:

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com/Change_Gear/Change_Gear-Desktop.m4v

              R8 shell mills / R8 face mills:

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com/FACE_MILLS.jpg

              My favorite R8 face mill:

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com/Glacern_FM45-400_Face_Mill.jpg

              I definitely prefer the R8 spindle over a Morse taper #3 spindle.

              However, R8 collet and tooling availability may be an issue in Europe.

              An R8 collet that is properly tightened and seated in the R8 spindle will require a light tap with a hammer or a mallet to unseat the collet.

              I use a plastic dead blow hammer for unseating the R8 collets.

              ENCO sells a draw bar hammer intended for R8 spindles that has a brass striker and a wrench socket for the draw bar:

              http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=3905649&PMAKA=891-5995

              Ned

              http://www.home-machine-shop.com

              --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, "alex4459jopiklal44" <christiansen_alex@...> wrote:
              >
              > hello group.. I am new member.. live in sonderborg in denmark and I have used a minilathe for a few years ..Now I think of buying a mill
              >
              > I had a mill.. or thought so.. the Proxxon BFW40 with BF2000 stand and x table KT150... but each time I try to mill a pice of iron the mill dig into the iron and I have several defect end mills now..So I think of buying the X2 from ARC.. I can see that ARC have replaced the collum with a better than the original.. and maybe you will agree that this is also very important for the best results..
              > ARC have one mashine with morsetaper MT3 and another version with R8.
              >
              > finaly my question to you all.. what is the best solution of those two
              > how do R8 work ..
              > hope you will give your thoughts about this and maybe other things to
              > take into account when buying a mill
              > alex
              >

            • John Haine
              R8 every time. You can buy them quite economically from MSC/J&L. They don t get stuck like MTs do and hold like B******y. Use 7/16 AF threaded bar as
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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                R8 every time. You can buy them quite economically from MSC/J&L. They
                don't get stuck like MTs do and hold like B******y. Use 7/16 AF
                threaded bar as drawbar.
              • johann_ohnesorg
                Hy Alex, as the others said, the MT3 is a self locking taper that is widely used, the R8 is more an american thing. In normal life, you´ll use a ER collet
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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                  Hy Alex,
                  as the others said, the MT3 is a self locking taper that is widely used, the R8 is more an american thing.
                  In normal life, you´ll use a ER collet chuck to hold mills and if it´s MT3 you can use it in the lathes headstock, too. Good for precision work.
                  It should be a ISO30 taper but only very few distributors sell that one for the X3 and none of these is in your vicinity. This opens up the machine for industrial tooling and would be a real step ahead.

                  Are you really aiming for a X2? Why not an X3 or an SX3, it´s far more machine even with the higher price. I have a heavily modified X2 clone and what upset me was the bad Z-axis feed and that it has no quill to drill and mill small parts. Another thing: The X3 has a bigger work envelope and more space on the table to bolt bigger parts or fixtures down.

                  Cheers,
                  Johann
                • alex4459jopiklal44
                  thank you to all of you that have given me very good information on the taper system...I think that R8 seem to be the one to choose but I will give it some
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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                    thank you to all of you that have given me very good information
                    on the taper system...I think that R8 seem to be the one to choose but I will give it some time before I order.
                    I have decided to buy the mashine at ARC mainly because of the fixed column ...actually I can't imagine that I would really need to tilt it.
                    I only have a little kitchen where the lathe allready take up space, and that is also the reason,not to get the X3..:) there have to be place for cooking too..
                    again.. thank you for your time and expertice
                    alex
                  • Bob and Terrie
                    I got the X2 mill and decided on the R8 because most bigger machines use an R8. If I ever want to upgrade, I won’t need to buy all new tools... I’m very
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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                      I got the X2 mill and decided on the R8 because most bigger machines use an R8. If I ever want to upgrade, I won’t need to buy all new tools...
                       
                      I’m very happy!
                      Bob
                       
                      Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 1:23 PM
                      Subject: [X_Series_Mills] Re: morse3 or r8
                       
                       


                      thank you to all of you that have given me very good information
                      on the taper system...I think that R8 seem to be the one to choose but I will give it some time before I order.
                      I have decided to buy the mashine at ARC mainly because of the fixed column ...actually I can't imagine that I would really need to tilt it.
                      I only have a little kitchen where the lathe allready take up space, and that is also the reason,not to get the X3..:) there have to be place for cooking too..
                      again.. thank you for your time and expertice
                      alex

                    • lists
                      In article , ... Here is another question: Larger drills have a MT2 shank. I know it is easy to get a sleeve to fit them in a MT3 but
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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                        In article <j6l1n7+v50e@...>,
                        alex4459jopiklal44 <christiansen_alex@...> wrote:
                        > finaly my question to you all.. what is the best solution of those two
                        > how do R8 work ..

                        Here is another question:

                        Larger drills have a MT2 shank. I know it is easy to get a sleeve to fit
                        them in a MT3 but how about R8?

                        --
                        Stuart
                        http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html
                      • Bob and Terrie
                        How about this? http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=516&PMITEM=213-7003 Bob From: lists Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:33 PM To:
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 7, 2011
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                          How about this?
                           
                           
                          Bob
                           
                          From: lists
                          Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 4:33 PM
                          Subject: Re: [X_Series_Mills] morse3 or r8
                           
                           

                          In article <mailto:j6l1n7%2Bv50e%40eGroups.com>,
                          alex4459jopiklal44 <mailto:christiansen_alex%40hotmail.com> wrote:

                          > finaly my question to you all.. what is the best solution of
                          those two
                          > how do R8 work ..

                          Here is another question:

                          Larger drills have a MT2 shank. I know it is easy to get a sleeve to fit
                          them in a MT3 but how about R8?

                          --
                          Stuart
                          http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html

                        • ketanswali1
                          ... Funny you should ask that. Sold one yesterday over the counter, so I remembered :-). Have a look at the bottom of this page:
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 8, 2011
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                            --- In X_Series_Mills@yahoogroups.com, lists <Stuartlists@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > In article <j6l1n7+v50e@...>,
                            > alex4459jopiklal44 <christiansen_alex@...> wrote:
                            > > finaly my question to you all.. what is the best solution of those two
                            > > how do R8 work ..
                            >
                            > Here is another question:
                            >
                            > Larger drills have a MT2 shank. I know it is easy to get a sleeve to fit
                            > them in a MT3 but how about R8?
                            >
                            > --
                            > Stuart
                            > http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html
                            >
                            Funny you should ask that. Sold one yesterday over the counter, so I remembered :-). Have a look at the bottom of this page:

                            http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Adaptors-Sleeves

                            Ketan at ARC.
                          • lists
                            In article , ... Good to know, ta. I may still choose a MT though for my next mill, which I hope to be in a position to order in the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 8, 2011
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                              In article <j6p0n9+oloj@...>,
                              ketanswali1 <ketan@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > Funny you should ask that. Sold one yesterday over the counter, so I
                              > remembered :-). Have a look at the bottom of this page:

                              > http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Adaptors-Sleeves

                              Good to know, ta. I may still choose a MT though for my next mill, which I
                              hope to be in a position to order in the new year.

                              My bid to be a Santa with http://www.santaforhire.co.uk/ to raise the cash
                              seems to be progressing but after a long talk on Wednesday with the chief
                              Santa, its beginning to sound a bit more scary than I thought.

                              --
                              Stuart
                              http://www.torrens.org.uk/ZFC/gallery/winsor.html
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