Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

suggested xsl-fo processors for floating images and html rendering

Expand Messages
  • Dan Moore
    Hi folks, I ve been lurking on the XSL-FO list for a month or so now. I m working for a company that has some very specific needs that I think XSL-FO might be
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 20, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi folks,

      I've been lurking on the XSL-FO list for a month or so now. I'm working for a company that has some very specific needs that I think XSL-FO might be able to meet. I've done some looking around (http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl/sect3/foreading.html and the fop website) and also some searches on the xsl-fo yahoogroup and the xsl-fo w3c group.

      However, I haven't found a way to do what we want. What we're looking for:

      A processor that supports the fo:float tag. Antenna and Render-X, among others, do this.

      It also needs to render to html. I found a few processors that did this (via this page: http://rkamal.blogspot.com/2004/12/list-of-xsl-fo-processors.html), but most of them used XSLT. What we want is paginated HTML. I'd like to leverage XSL-FO's pagination and then render to HTML.

      The final item is more of a preference: that the processor run on unix and have java APIs. That's not a hard requirement, though.

      Does the list have any suggestions? Am I wrong to be looking at XSL-FO as a possible solution for this? If so, are there any other technologies which might be appropriate?

      Thanks for your time.
      Dan
    • G. Ken Holman
      ... Right ... because the XSL-FO specification says nothing about rendering, most such solutions are just transformations from XML to HTML in parallel with XML
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 20, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        At 2006-01-20 09:25 -0800, Dan Moore wrote:
        >I haven't found a way to do what we want. What we're looking for:
        >
        > A processor that supports the fo:float tag. Antenna and Render-X,
        > among others, do this.
        >
        > It also needs to render to html. I found a few processors that
        > did this (via this page:
        > http://rkamal.blogspot.com/2004/12/list-of-xsl-fo-processors.html),
        > but most of them used XSLT.

        Right ... because the XSL-FO specification says nothing about
        rendering, most such solutions are just transformations from XML to
        HTML in parallel with XML to XSL-FO. The XSL-FO specification only
        describes the interpretation of XSL-FO constructs into an area tree
        representing the content that belongs on each of a set of pages.

        >What we want is paginated HTML.

        I'm guessing here you want a set of hyperlinked pages, "prev" and
        "next" links back and forth to "pages" that have been parcelled out
        from the interpreted content.

        But what is a "page" in a stream of interpreted XSL-FO that uses A4
        or US letter when you are going to HTML? I don't believe it makes
        sense that a "rendered page" (interpreted formatting of XSL-FO
        semantics into an area tree) be the basis for "prev"/"next" links in
        a set of HTML. Consider that a block of lines (e.g. a paragraph)
        only fits half of its lines on a given page, the orphans, and then
        the widow lines go to the next page ... would it make sense to break
        this block of lines into two HTML+CSS pages?

        >I'd like to leverage XSL-FO's pagination and then render to HTML.

        It is common to serialize the creation of HTML from XSL-FO, but the
        commonly-used module produces a single HTML+CSS file for the entire
        flow ... there is no interpretation of a "page" in the HTML+CSS that
        is produced.

        I'm not convinced that area-tree pagination makes the best basis for
        an HTML rendering.

        >The final item is more of a preference: that the processor run on
        >unix and have java APIs. That's not a hard requirement, though.

        True ... for one customer we go from XSL-FO to HTML+CSS using
        Java-based Saxon. The authoring creates the raw XML, an XSLT/XSL-FO
        stylesheet produces an XSL-FO instance (using Saxon), that instance
        is rendered to PDF using an XSL-FO engine, then the self-same XSL-FO
        instance is transformed to a single HTML+CSS file. We only write
        XSLT/XSL-FO stylesheets for the rendering of many different reports,
        because a single XSLT stylesheet works for all reports ... it just
        translates XSL-FO page sequences into HTML+CSS regardless of how the
        XSL-FO page sequences were created.

        > Does the list have any suggestions?

        I use http://www.renderx.com/tools/fo2html.html to transform an
        XSL-FO instance into a single HTML+CSS file. I've had to tweak it
        and wrap it to get some benefits needed that are not provided for by
        the publicly-available version.

        >Am I wrong to be looking at XSL-FO as a possible solution for this?

        Perhaps ... I don't know of any vendor that takes the "interpreted
        XSL-FO semantics in the area tree" and renders the area tree as HTML.

        >If so, are there any other technologies which might be appropriate?

        In my training material design, the smallest level of granularity
        upon which I write the content is what I call a "pane" ... XSLT
        produces a single HTML page for each pane and hyperlinks every pane
        to its previous one, its next one, the first pane of the current
        frame of panes, the first pane of the first frame of the previous
        lesson of frames, the first frame of the current lesson of frames,
        the first pane of the first frame of the next lesson of frames, the
        first pane of the first frame of the first lesson of the previous
        module of lessons, the first pane of the first lesson of the current
        module of lessons, the first pane of the first lesson of the next
        module of lessons, and the index of all frames and their
        panes. Students of mine might remember the button-box at the top
        right corner of the HTML projection slides, absent in the PDF rendering.

        The governing idea was that "it is easy to aggregate information into
        a set, but very difficult to disaggregate a set into constituent
        components". A common mantra when working with markup. Thus, I use
        XSLT to transform the granular panes into individual hyperlinked HTML
        pages, and then different XSLT to aggregate panes, frames, lessons
        and modules into chapters of PDF using XSL-FO. One set of rendered
        PDF was then published by Prentice Hall into an on-the-shelf
        publication. The same XML source was used both for my electronic
        publications (HTML and another XSL-FO to create different PDF) and
        the paper publications (printed PDF) with a very different look and feel.

        I suggest you do the same, thus getting the control you want for the
        HTML granularity (assuming that's the smallest) and the PDF
        aggregation that makes sense in each medium for the kind of
        information you are working with. Pick an authoring level of
        granularity that gives you the flexibility to do late-binding of
        different levels of aggregation.

        I hope this helps.

        . . . . . . . . . . . . Ken

        --
        Upcoming XSLT/XSL-FO hands-on courses: Denver,CO March 13-17,2006
        World-wide on-site corporate, govt. & user group XML/XSL training.
        G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@...
        Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/f/
        Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995)
        Male Cancer Awareness Aug'05 http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/f/bc
        Legal business disclaimers: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal
      • tokukobayashi2002
        Hello! If you need to convert each page to a html page, it will be possible to achieve the objective by converting AreaTree to HTML. AreaTree is a pagenated,
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 21, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello!

          If you need to convert each page to a html page, it will be possible
          to achieve the objective by converting AreaTree to HTML.

          AreaTree is a pagenated, intermediate XML from XSL FO instance.
          It is not a standard, processor dependent. Guideline is on XSL FO
          specification.

          As GUI of XSL Formatter can save an AreaTree, you may get the idea
          of AreaTree by using a evaluation copy of XSL Formatter.

          I hope it helps.

          Best regards,

          Tokushige Kobayashi


          -- Antenna House, Inc.
          E-mail koba@...
          WWW http://www.antenna.co.jp/ (Japanese)
          PDF Blog http://blog.antenna.co.jp/PDFTool/ (Japanese)
          WWW http://www.antennahouse.com/ (English)
          TEL +81-3-3234-1361 (direct call)
          FAX +81-3-3221-9975

          --- In XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com, Dan Moore <moore234@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi folks,
          >
          > I've been lurking on the XSL-FO list for a month or so now. I'm
          working for a company that has some very specific needs that I think
          XSL-FO might be able to meet. I've done some looking around
          (http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl/sect3/foreading.html and the fop
          website) and also some searches on the xsl-fo yahoogroup and the
          xsl-fo w3c group.
          >
          > However, I haven't found a way to do what we want. What we're
          looking for:
          >
          > A processor that supports the fo:float tag. Antenna and Render-X,
          among others, do this.
          >
          > It also needs to render to html. I found a few processors that did
          this (via this page:
          http://rkamal.blogspot.com/2004/12/list-of-xsl-fo-processors.html),
          but most of them used XSLT. What we want is paginated HTML. I'd like
          to leverage XSL-FO's pagination and then render to HTML.
          >
          > The final item is more of a preference: that the processor run on
          unix and have java APIs. That's not a hard requirement, though.
          >
          > Does the list have any suggestions? Am I wrong to be looking at
          XSL-FO as a possible solution for this? If so, are there any other
          technologies which might be appropriate?
          >
          > Thanks for your time.
          > Dan
          >
        • Dan Moore
          Thanks for the suggestion. I ve looked at FOP, and see that it has an area tree output which I could conceivably further process. Unfortunately, it seems that
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 23, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for the suggestion.

            I've looked at FOP, and see that it has an area tree output which I could conceivably further process. Unfortunately, it seems that neither version of FOP (stable or dev) plans support for fo:float.

            Do you know of any processors (free or commercial), that expose the AreaTree without using the GUI? Does XSLFormatter allow that?

            Dan

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: tokukobayashi2002 <koba@...>
            To: XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 18:56:30
            Subject: [XSL-FO] Re: suggested xsl-fo processors for floating images and html rendering

            Hello!

            If you need to convert each page to a html page, it will be possible
            to achieve the objective by converting AreaTree to HTML.

            AreaTree is a pagenated, intermediate XML from XSL FO instance.
            It is not a standard, processor dependent. Guideline is on XSL FO
            specification.

            As GUI of XSL Formatter can save an AreaTree, you may get the idea
            of AreaTree by using a evaluation copy of XSL Formatter.

            I hope it helps.

            Best regards,

            Tokushige Kobayashi


            -- Antenna House, Inc.
            E-mail koba@...
            WWW http://www.antenna.co.jp/ (Japanese)
            PDF Blog http://blog.antenna.co.jp/PDFTool/ (Japanese)
            WWW http://www.antennahouse.com/ (English)
            TEL +81-3-3234-1361 (direct call)
            FAX +81-3-3221-9975

            --- In XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com, Dan Moore <moore234@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi folks,
            >
            > I've been lurking on the XSL-FO list for a month or so now. I'm
            working for a company that has some very specific needs that I think
            XSL-FO might be able to meet. I've done some looking around
            (http://www.dpawson.co.uk/xsl/sect3/foreading.html and the fop
            website) and also some searches on the xsl-fo yahoogroup and the
            xsl-fo w3c group.
            >
            > However, I haven't found a way to do what we want. What we're
            looking for:
            >
            > A processor that supports the fo:float tag. Antenna and Render-X,
            among others, do this.
            >
            > It also needs to render to html. I found a few processors that did
            this (via this page:
            http://rkamal.blogspot.com/2004/12/list-of-xsl-fo-processors.html),
            but most of them used XSLT. What we want is paginated HTML. I'd like
            to leverage XSL-FO's pagination and then render to HTML.
            >
            > The final item is more of a preference: that the processor run on
            unix and have java APIs. That's not a hard requirement, though.
            >
            > Does the list have any suggestions? Am I wrong to be looking at
            XSL-FO as a possible solution for this? If so, are there any other
            technologies which might be appropriate?
            >
            > Thanks for your time.
            > Dan
            >






            SPONSORED LINKS
            Xml xsl Xsl Xsl fo Xsl tutorial
            YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

            Visit your group "XSL-FO" on the web.
            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            XSL-FO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dan Moore
            Hi, ... I m sorry I wasn t clear. What we want is to have printed web page break nicely. The document will still be in one pane when viewed, so it won t be
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 23, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi,

              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: G. Ken Holman <gkholman@...>
              > To: xsl-fo@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 20:32:34
              > Subject: Re: [XSL-FO] suggested xsl-fo processors for floating images and html rendering

              > At 2006-01-20 09:25 -0800, Dan Moore wrote:
              > >I haven't found a way to do what we want. What we're looking for:
              > >
              > > A processor that supports the fo:float tag. Antenna and Render-X,
              > > among others, do this.
              > >
              > > It also needs to render to html. I found a few processors that
              > > did this (via this page:
              > > http://rkamal.blogspot.com/2004/12/list-of-xsl-fo-processors.html),
              > > but most of them used XSLT.
              >
              > Right ... because the XSL-FO specification says nothing about
              > rendering, most such solutions are just transformations from XML to
              > HTML in parallel with XML to XSL-FO. The XSL-FO specification only
              > describes the interpretation of XSL-FO constructs into an area tree
              > representing the content that belongs on each of a set of pages.
              >
              > >What we want is paginated HTML.
              >
              > I'm guessing here you want a set of hyperlinked pages, "prev" and
              > "next" links back and forth to "pages" that have been parcelled out
              > from the interpreted content.

              I'm sorry I wasn't clear. What we want is to have printed web page break nicely. The document will still be in one pane when viewed, so it won't be broken up into hyperlinked pages.

              ... snip ...

              > > Does the list have any suggestions?
              >
              > I use http://www.renderx.com/tools/fo2html.html to transform an
              > XSL-FO instance into a single HTML+CSS file. I've had to tweak it
              > and wrap it to get some benefits needed that are not provided for by
              > the publicly-available version.

              Thanks. I found this nosing around after I had posted. This is great in that it turns the XSL-FO to HTML, but it doesn't preserve pagination. I'm sure that's because pagination is not a property of the XSL-FO stylesheet, but rather an outgrowth of the processor applying the XSL-FO to content.

              > >Am I wrong to be looking at XSL-FO as a possible solution for this?
              >
              > Perhaps ... I don't know of any vendor that takes the "interpreted
              > XSL-FO semantics in the area tree" and renders the area tree as HTML.

              OK. Do you know of any vendors that make that area tree available so that we might be able to translate the area tree to HTML via a plugin or extension? I've looked at FOP, which does provide an XMLRenderer. But, unfortunately, FOP does not support fo:float, which is another requirement.

              > >If so, are there any other technologies which might be appropriate?
              >
              > In my training material design, the smallest level of granularity
              > upon which I write the content is what I call a "pane" ... XSLT
              > produces a single HTML page for each pane and hyperlinks every pane
              > to its previous one, its next one, the first pane of the current
              > frame of panes, the first pane of the first frame of the previous
              > lesson of frames, the first frame of the current lesson of frames,
              > the first pane of the first frame of the next lesson of frames, the
              > first pane of the first frame of the first lesson of the previous
              > module of lessons, the first pane of the first lesson of the current
              > module of lessons, the first pane of the first lesson of the next
              > module of lessons, and the index of all frames and their
              > panes. Students of mine might remember the button-box at the top
              > right corner of the HTML projection slides, absent in the PDF rendering.
              >
              > The governing idea was that "it is easy to aggregate information into
              > a set, but very difficult to disaggregate a set into constituent
              > components". A common mantra when working with markup. Thus, I use
              > XSLT to transform the granular panes into individual hyperlinked HTML
              > pages, and then different XSLT to aggregate panes, frames, lessons
              > and modules into chapters of PDF using XSL-FO. One set of rendered
              > PDF was then published by Prentice Hall into an on-the-shelf
              > publication. The same XML source was used both for my electronic
              > publications (HTML and another XSL-FO to create different PDF) and
              > the paper publications (printed PDF) with a very different look and feel.
              >
              > I suggest you do the same, thus getting the control you want for the
              > HTML granularity (assuming that's the smallest) and the PDF
              > aggregation that makes sense in each medium for the kind of
              > information you are working with. Pick an authoring level of
              > granularity that gives you the flexibility to do late-binding of
              > different levels of aggregation.

              I think I get what you're saying. However, what we want is a 'pane' that corresponds to a printed 8 1/2" by 11" page. And I don't know how to get that without using a tool like XSL-FO (or counting characters + font metrics, a solution I'm trying to shy away from).

              Thanks for your suggestions.
              Dan





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Eliot Kimber
              ... Both XEP and XSL Formatter provide some form of area tree that you can post-process. ... I m still not sure I understand exactly what you re looking for,
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 23, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Dan Moore wrote:
                >> Perhaps ... I don't know of any vendor that takes the "interpreted
                >> XSL-FO semantics in the area tree" and renders the area tree as
                >> HTML.
                >
                > OK. Do you know of any vendors that make that area tree available so
                > that we might be able to translate the area tree to HTML via a plugin
                > or extension? I've looked at FOP, which does provide an XMLRenderer.
                > But, unfortunately, FOP does not support fo:float, which is another
                > requirement.

                Both XEP and XSL Formatter provide some form of area tree that you can
                post-process.

                > I think I get what you're saying. However, what we want is a 'pane'
                > that corresponds to a printed 8 1/2" by 11" page. And I don't know
                > how to get that without using a tool like XSL-FO (or counting
                > characters + font metrics, a solution I'm trying to shy away from).

                I'm still not sure I understand exactly what you're looking for, but
                using the area tree you should be able to at least capture the page
                breaks so that whatever generates your HTML can reflect it in some way.

                Cheers,

                Eliot

                --
                W. Eliot Kimber
                Professional Services
                Innodata Isogen
                9390 Research Blvd, #410
                Austin, TX 78759
                (512) 372-8841

                ekimber@...
                www.innodata-isogen.com
              • tokukobayashi2002
                Hello, ... could conceivably further process. Unfortunately, it seems that neither version of FOP (stable or dev) plans support for fo:float. ... I am not
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 24, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello,

                  --- In XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com, Dan Moore <moore234@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks for the suggestion.
                  >
                  > I've looked at FOP, and see that it has an area tree output which I
                  could conceivably further process. Unfortunately, it seems that
                  neither version of FOP (stable or dev) plans support for fo:float.
                  >

                  I am not familiar with FOP.

                  > Do you know of any processors (free or commercial), that expose the
                  AreaTree without using the GUI? Does XSLFormatter allow that?

                  In the case of XSL Formatter, it will be possible to generate areatree
                  by using @AreaTree instead of @PDF at any interface such as command
                  line etc.

                  I hope it will be helpful.

                  Tokushige Kobayashi
                  -- Antenna House, Inc.
                  E-mail koba@...
                  WWW http://www.antenna.co.jp/ (Japanese)
                  PDF Blog http://blog.antenna.co.jp/PDFTool/ (Japanese)
                  WWW http://www.antennahouse.com/ (English)
                  TEL +81-3-3234-1361 (direct call)
                  FAX +81-3-3221-9975
                • Eliot Kimber
                  ... It does, as does XEP (which has no GUI, only an API and a command line). Cheers, Eliot -- W. Eliot Kimber Professional Services Innodata Isogen 9390
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 24, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dan Moore wrote:

                    > Do you know of any processors (free or commercial), that expose the
                    > AreaTree without using the GUI? Does XSLFormatter allow that?

                    It does, as does XEP (which has no GUI, only an API and a command line).

                    Cheers,

                    Eliot
                    --
                    W. Eliot Kimber
                    Professional Services
                    Innodata Isogen
                    9390 Research Blvd, #410
                    Austin, TX 78759
                    (512) 372-8841

                    ekimber@...
                    www.innodata-isogen.com
                  • Dan Moore
                    OK. Looks like there are a couple of viable solutions. I will investigate further. I d like to thank everyone who chimed in for their time and input. Dan ...
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 24, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      OK. Looks like there are a couple of viable solutions. I will investigate further.

                      I'd like to thank everyone who chimed in for their time and input.

                      Dan

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Eliot Kimber
                      To: XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 08:06:28
                      Subject: Re: [XSL-FO] Re: suggested xsl-fo processors for floating images and html rendering

                      Dan Moore wrote:

                      > Do you know of any processors (free or commercial), that expose the
                      > AreaTree without using the GUI? Does XSLFormatter allow that?

                      It does, as does XEP (which has no GUI, only an API and a command line).

                      Cheers,

                      Eliot
                      --
                      W. Eliot Kimber
                      Professional Services
                      Innodata Isogen
                      9390 Research Blvd, #410
                      Austin, TX 78759
                      (512) 372-8841

                      ekimber@...
                      www.innodata-isogen.com




                      SPONSORED LINKS
                      Xml xsl Xsl Xsl fo Xsl tutorial
                      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

                      Visit your group "XSL-FO" on the web.
                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      XSL-FO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.