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RE: [XSL-FO] Re: xsl-fo2text

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  • Ludo Rousseau
    Frank wrote Oleg, I don t know of any FO processor that outputs a simple text file with all the formatting characteristics possible in XSL-FO. Often all
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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      Frank wrote
      Oleg,

      I don't know of any FO processor that outputs a simple text file with
      all the formatting characteristics possible in XSL-FO.
      Often all niceties of XSL-FO are not needed.
      If you're interested in outputing to simple plain text, FO is not the
      solution because plain text lacks the formating capabilities of FO.
      In that case, simply using XSLT to output your XML to plain text is
      the answer.

      Not all FO files come from other XML files. There are other tools that
      generate XLS Formatting Objects.
      Ludo Rousseau
      Koblix

      --- In XSL-FO@y..., Oleg Tkachenko <olegt@m...> wrote:
      > Hello there !
      >
      > Has anybody ideas of how can I do xsl-fo to text transformation
      > (rendering) ?
      >
      > --
      > Oleg Tkachenko
      > Multiconn International


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    • Oleg Tkachenko
      ... As Ludo Rousseau kindly pointed, apache s fop has such kind of ability. What would you ... It s simple text format and I have to get output in this form
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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        neuggs@... wrote:
        > I don't know of any FO processor that outputs a simple text file with
        > all the formatting characteristics possible in XSL-FO.
        As Ludo Rousseau kindly pointed, apache's fop has such kind of ability.

        What would you
        > use to read the output of the FO processor and in what format would
        > the processor output the results of the FO area tree?
        It's simple text format and I have to get output in this form for line
        printers and faxes as target devices.
        > If you're interested in outputing to simple plain text, FO is not the
        > solution because plain text lacks the formating capabilities of FO.
        Okay, I don't need all FO capabilities but only a subset.

        > In that case, simply using XSLT to output your XML to plain text is
        > the answer.
        Actually my XML is a pure XSL FO document, generated by some software
        and I have to transform it to format appropriate for a target device,
        such as page printer, line printer, browser, hand-held device, fax and
        so on. Transforming to HTML, WML, PDF isn't a problem, in fact it's pure
        format transformation, but what about line printers and faxes ?
        --
        Oleg Tkachenko
        Multiconn International
      • neuggs@concentric.net
        Ludo, Good point. However, it is the *intent* of XSL to render XML. Composing FOs (like you may compose HTML) is being discouraged by the writers of the Spec.
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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          Ludo,

          Good point. However, it is the *intent* of XSL to render XML.
          Composing FOs (like you may compose HTML) is being discouraged by the
          writers of the Spec.

          That said, your point is taken. Perhaps you have other uses that I'm
          unaware of.

          Regards,
          Frank.


          --- In XSL-FO@y..., "Ludo Rousseau" <Ludo.Rousseau@k...> wrote:
          > Frank wrote
          > Oleg,
          >
          > I don't know of any FO processor that outputs a simple text file
          with
          > all the formatting characteristics possible in XSL-FO.
          > Often all niceties of XSL-FO are not needed.
          > If you're interested in outputing to simple plain text, FO is not
          the
          > solution because plain text lacks the formating capabilities of FO.
          > In that case, simply using XSLT to output your XML to plain text is
          > the answer.
          >
          > Not all FO files come from other XML files. There are other tools
          that
          > generate XLS Formatting Objects.
          > Ludo Rousseau
          > Koblix
          >
          > --- In XSL-FO@y..., Oleg Tkachenko <olegt@m...> wrote:
          > > Hello there !
          > >
          > > Has anybody ideas of how can I do xsl-fo to text transformation
          > > (rendering) ?
          > >
          > > --
          > > Oleg Tkachenko
          > > Multiconn International
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > XSL-FO-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • neuggs@concentric.net
          Hi Oleg, ... Yes, but if you ve tried it, the output isn t what you might be expecting (maybe it is I don t know). The text is the textual representation of
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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            Hi Oleg,

            > As Ludo Rousseau kindly pointed, apache's fop has such kind of
            >ability.
            Yes, but if you've tried it, the output isn't what you might be
            expecting (maybe it is I don't know). The "text" is the textual
            representation of PDF (I think).

            > Actually my XML is a pure XSL FO document, generated by some
            >software and I have to transform it to format appropriate for a
            >target device, such as page printer, line printer, browser, hand-
            >held device, fax and so on. Transforming to HTML, WML, PDF isn't a
            >problem, in fact it's pure format transformation, but what about
            >line printers and faxes ?

            XSL is intended for the output of XML. The fact that you're
            composing "pure" FOs is really counter to the intent of XSL. If you
            tightly couple your data with your visual representation
            (i.e., "pure" FOs), you've defeated the entire purpose and are better
            off just using HTML. Sorry for the commentary, especially since I
            don't know what you're trying to do. :-)

            Nevertheless, output to printers and faxes, et. al., is the
            responsibility of the FO processor. I seem to recall FOP moving down
            a path that included a printer implementation, but I'm not familiar
            with the status of that work. I do not know of any processor that has
            implemented a fax output format.

            Regards,
            Frank.

            --- In XSL-FO@y..., Oleg Tkachenko <olegt@m...> wrote:
            > neuggs@c... wrote:
            > > I don't know of any FO processor that outputs a simple text file
            with
            > > all the formatting characteristics possible in XSL-FO.
            > As Ludo Rousseau kindly pointed, apache's fop has such kind of
            ability.
            >
            > What would you
            > > use to read the output of the FO processor and in what format
            would
            > > the processor output the results of the FO area tree?
            > It's simple text format and I have to get output in this form for
            line
            > printers and faxes as target devices.
            > > If you're interested in outputing to simple plain text, FO is not
            the
            > > solution because plain text lacks the formating capabilities of
            FO.
            > Okay, I don't need all FO capabilities but only a subset.
            >
            > > In that case, simply using XSLT to output your XML to plain text
            is
            > > the answer.
            > Actually my XML is a pure XSL FO document, generated by some
            software
            > and I have to transform it to format appropriate for a target
            device,
            > such as page printer, line printer, browser, hand-held device, fax
            and
            > so on. Transforming to HTML, WML, PDF isn't a problem, in fact it's
            pure
            > format transformation, but what about line printers and faxes ?
            > --
            > Oleg Tkachenko
            > Multiconn International
          • Falk
            Frank, XSL-FO is XML Format is it not ? So why should it not be intended ? Falk ... From: neuggs@concentric.net To: XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday,
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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              Frank,
              XSL-FO is XML Format is it not ? So why should it not be intended ?
               
              Falk
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 4:48 PM
              Subject: [XSL-FO] Re: xsl-fo2text

              Ludo,

              Good point. However, it is the *intent* of XSL to render XML.
              Composing FOs (like you may compose HTML) is being discouraged by the
              writers of the Spec.

              That said, your point is taken. Perhaps you have other uses that I'm
              unaware of.

              Regards,
              Frank.


              --- In XSL-FO@y..., "Ludo Rousseau" <Ludo.Rousseau@k...> wrote:
              > Frank wrote
              > Oleg,
              >
              > I don't know of any FO processor that outputs a simple text file
              with
              > all the formatting characteristics possible in XSL-FO.
              > Often all niceties of XSL-FO are not needed.
              > If you're interested in outputing to simple plain text, FO is not
              the
              > solution because plain text lacks the formating capabilities of FO.
              > In that case, simply using XSLT to output your XML to plain text is
              > the answer.
              >
              > Not all FO files come from other XML files. There are other tools
              that
              > generate XLS Formatting Objects.
              > Ludo Rousseau
              > Koblix
              >
              > --- In XSL-FO@y..., Oleg Tkachenko <olegt@m...> wrote:
              > > Hello there !
              > >
              > > Has anybody ideas of how can I do xsl-fo to text transformation
              > > (rendering) ?
              > >
              > > --
              > > Oleg Tkachenko
              > > Multiconn International
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > XSL-FO-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              XSL-FO-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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            • neuggs@concentric.net
              Falk, Good question. The answer has to do with separation of business and visual data (in my opinion). Although markups such as HTML (I mean XHTML) and FO are
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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                Falk,

                Good question. The answer has to do with separation of business and
                visual data (in my opinion). Although markups such as HTML (I mean
                XHTML) and FO are XML, they're really the combination of business and
                visual data, with the loss of the business context. That is to say,
                within an FO document, you have no way of separating what is visual
                data and what is business data (and no way of understanding the
                meaning of the business data). The point in parenthesis is a *very*
                important one.

                To be more specific, XSL is intended as the mechanism to represent
                *business* XML. In this way, clear separation is possible. So, what
                I'm saying is, that FOs should really be the result of transforming
                business XML into a visual format by first using XSLT to create FOs,
                then some processor to generate an output format (e.g., PDF, RTF).

                Thanks for asking that one, I see now where I was being ambiguous.

                Regards,
                Frank.


                --- In XSL-FO@y..., "Falk" <falk.maechtig@p...> wrote:
                > Frank,
                > XSL-FO is XML Format is it not ? So why should it not be intended ?
                >
                > Falk
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: neuggs@c...
                > To: XSL-FO@y...
                > Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 4:48 PM
                > Subject: [XSL-FO] Re: xsl-fo2text
                >
                >
                > Ludo,
                >
                > Good point. However, it is the *intent* of XSL to render XML.
                > Composing FOs (like you may compose HTML) is being discouraged by
                the
                > writers of the Spec.
                >
                > That said, your point is taken. Perhaps you have other uses that
                I'm
                > unaware of.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Frank.
                >
                >
                > --- In XSL-FO@y..., "Ludo Rousseau" <Ludo.Rousseau@k...> wrote:
                > > Frank wrote
                > > Oleg,
                > >
                > > I don't know of any FO processor that outputs a simple text
                file
                > with
                > > all the formatting characteristics possible in XSL-FO.
                > > Often all niceties of XSL-FO are not needed.
                > > If you're interested in outputing to simple plain text, FO is
                not
                > the
                > > solution because plain text lacks the formating capabilities of
                FO.
                > > In that case, simply using XSLT to output your XML to plain
                text is
                > > the answer.
                > >
                > > Not all FO files come from other XML files. There are other
                tools
                > that
                > > generate XLS Formatting Objects.
                > > Ludo Rousseau
                > > Koblix
                > >
                > > --- In XSL-FO@y..., Oleg Tkachenko <olegt@m...> wrote:
                > > > Hello there !
                > > >
                > > > Has anybody ideas of how can I do xsl-fo to text
                transformation
                > > > (rendering) ?
                > > >
                > > > --
                > > > Oleg Tkachenko
                > > > Multiconn International
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > XSL-FO-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
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                Service.
              • Ludo Rousseau
                Hello Frank, you wrote: XSL is intended for the output of XML. The fact that you re composing pure FOs is really counter to the intent of XSL. If you tightly
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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                  Hello Frank,

                  you wrote:

                  XSL is intended for the output of XML. The fact that you're
                  composing "pure" FOs is really counter to the intent of XSL. If you
                  tightly couple your data with your visual representation
                  (i.e., "pure" FOs), you've defeated the entire purpose and are better
                  off just using HTML. Sorry for the commentary, especially since I
                  don't know what you're trying to do. :-)

                  Nevertheless, output to printers and faxes, et. al., is the
                  responsibility of the FO processor. I seem to recall FOP moving down
                  a path that included a printer implementation, but I'm not familiar
                  with the status of that work. I do not know of any processor that has
                  implemented a fax output format.

                  The word "intent" is used rather frequently. Be aware of people that develop
                  tools "intended" to do a given task. Users are very imaginative to use those
                  same tools for completely different tasks. Maybe that's what made them "good
                  tools". :)
                  But there is also some confusion about XSL. Agreed, XSL Transformation is
                  used to transform an XML document to another XML document.
                  But XSL Formatting Objects is just an XML vocabulary. Why cannot we create
                  this kind of XML documents with the tool we like (or just happens to be
                  available) ?
                  And as far as text formatting for a line printer is concerned, fop probably
                  will make a very poor job of it. :)
                  Regards,
                  Ludo Rousseau
                  Koblix
                • Oleg Tkachenko
                  ... No, text renderer is one of 7 fop s renderers (txt, awt(java window), pcl, xml, mif, ps and pdf) that renders areas to plain text. It really works, well
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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                    neuggs@... wrote:

                    > Yes, but if you've tried it, the output isn't what you might be
                    > expecting (maybe it is I don't know). The "text" is the textual
                    > representation of PDF (I think).
                    No, text renderer is one of 7 fop's renderers (txt, awt(java window),
                    pcl, xml, mif, ps and pdf) that renders areas to plain text. It really
                    works, well done, apache community, unfortunately I cannot use fop in my
                    project :(

                    > XSL is intended for the output of XML. The fact that you're
                    > composing "pure" FOs is really counter to the intent of XSL. If you
                    > tightly couple your data with your visual representation
                    > (i.e., "pure" FOs), you've defeated the entire purpose and are better
                    > off just using HTML.
                    No, I didn't mean it :) Actually I have data in some format (I was
                    rather misleading, so I'll call it "xsl-fo-resembling") and can easily
                    transform it to any *markup* language (HTML for browsers, XSL-FO for
                    page printers, WML etc) but the only problem is text format for line
                    printers and faxes, because here I have to render area tree.
                    --
                    Oleg Tkachenko
                    Multiconn International
                  • Oleg Tkachenko
                    ... I would say composing FO doc by hands is a crazy work :) But what about visual tool that can generate xslt stylesheets to transform input data to visually
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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                      neuggs@... wrote:

                      > Composing FOs (like you may compose HTML) is being discouraged by the
                      > writers of the Spec.
                      I would say composing FO doc by hands is a crazy work :) But what about
                      visual tool that can generate xslt stylesheets to transform input data
                      to visually developed FO docs ?

                      --
                      Oleg Tkachenko
                      Multiconn International
                    • neuggs@concentric.net
                      Ludo, Point taken. I agree that people are free to use XSL as they choose aand that, perhaps, in some instances, there is good reason to compose FOs in a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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                        Ludo,

                        Point taken. I agree that people are "free" to use XSL as they choose
                        aand that, perhaps, in some instances, there is good reason to
                        compose FOs in a "pure" fashion.

                        My own experience, however, is that I've not seen such a situation.
                        Thanks for suggesting that such a situation exists, can you elaborate?

                        Many thanks.

                        Regards,
                        Frank.



                        --- In XSL-FO@y..., "Ludo Rousseau" <Ludo.Rousseau@k...> wrote:
                        > Hello Frank,
                        >
                        > you wrote:
                        >
                        > XSL is intended for the output of XML. The fact that you're
                        > composing "pure" FOs is really counter to the intent of XSL. If you
                        > tightly couple your data with your visual representation
                        > (i.e., "pure" FOs), you've defeated the entire purpose and are
                        better
                        > off just using HTML. Sorry for the commentary, especially since I
                        > don't know what you're trying to do. :-)
                        >
                        > Nevertheless, output to printers and faxes, et. al., is the
                        > responsibility of the FO processor. I seem to recall FOP moving down
                        > a path that included a printer implementation, but I'm not familiar
                        > with the status of that work. I do not know of any processor that
                        has
                        > implemented a fax output format.
                        >
                        > The word "intent" is used rather frequently. Be aware of people
                        that develop
                        > tools "intended" to do a given task. Users are very imaginative to
                        use those
                        > same tools for completely different tasks. Maybe that's what made
                        them "good
                        > tools". :)
                        > But there is also some confusion about XSL. Agreed, XSL
                        Transformation is
                        > used to transform an XML document to another XML document.
                        > But XSL Formatting Objects is just an XML vocabulary. Why cannot we
                        create
                        > this kind of XML documents with the tool we like (or just happens
                        to be
                        > available) ?
                        > And as far as text formatting for a line printer is concerned, fop
                        probably
                        > will make a very poor job of it. :)
                        > Regards,
                        > Ludo Rousseau
                        > Koblix
                      • neuggs@concentric.net
                        Oleg, ... I think a visual tool that can allow the manipulation of XML to a visual format allowing the creation of the corresponding stylesheet (s) would be a
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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                          Oleg,

                          > I would say composing FO doc by hands is a crazy work :) But what ?
                          >about visual tool that can generate xslt stylesheets to transform
                          >input data to visually developed FO docs ?

                          I think a visual tool that can allow the manipulation of XML to a
                          visual format allowing the creation of the corresponding stylesheet
                          (s) would be a wonderful thing. That was not my interpretation of
                          what you meant by creating "pure" FO documents.

                          Regards,
                          Frank.


                          --- In XSL-FO@y..., Oleg Tkachenko <olegt@m...> wrote:
                          > neuggs@c... wrote:
                          >
                          > > Composing FOs (like you may compose HTML) is being discouraged by
                          the
                          > > writers of the Spec.
                          > I would say composing FO doc by hands is a crazy work :) But what
                          about
                          > visual tool that can generate xslt stylesheets to transform input
                          data
                          > to visually developed FO docs ?
                          >
                          > --
                          > Oleg Tkachenko
                          > Multiconn International
                        • Ludo Rousseau
                          Frank wrote: Point taken. I agree that people are free to use XSL as they choose aand that, perhaps, in some instances, there is good reason to compose FOs
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 16, 2001
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                            Frank wrote:
                            Point taken. I agree that people are "free" to use XSL as they choose
                            aand that, perhaps, in some instances, there is good reason to
                            compose FOs in a "pure" fashion.

                            My own experience, however, is that I've not seen such a situation.
                            Thanks for suggesting that such a situation exists, can you elaborate?

                            =========
                            Frank,
                            we recently had a project proposal for a potential customer here at Koblix
                            for transforming "old" text documents that have formatting markup (but we
                            speak about an epoch long before XML and the like). We proposed a
                            "transformer" that outputs directly to FO.
                            Regards,
                            Ludo Rousseau
                            Koblix
                          • ronald heller
                            Fop has a txt renderer I believe (-txt in stead of -pdf): look at the parameters you have to set on fop for doing so: http://xml.apache.org/fop/running.html
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 17, 2001
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                              Fop has a txt renderer I believe (-txt in stead of -pdf):

                              look at the parameters you have to set on fop for doing so:
                              http://xml.apache.org/fop/running.html


                              Ronald
                              >>Has anybody ideas of how can I do xsl-fo to text transformation
                              >>(rendering) ?
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