Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [XSL-FO] XSL-FO and Quark Xpress

Expand Messages
  • Ryan Graham
    You may want to look into XML Toolworks by Media Entities: http://www.mediaentities.com/ It claims to do what you need it to do. HTH, RG ... From:
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 5, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      You may want to look into XML Toolworks by Media Entities:

      http://www.mediaentities.com/

      It claims to do what you need it to do.

      HTH,
      RG

      -----Original Message-----
      From: icastleton105 [mailto:ian.castleton@...]
      Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:50 AM
      To: XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [XSL-FO] XSL-FO and Quark Xpress


      I am an IT project manager for a large UK newspaper publisher. I am
      investigating the possibility of building a content-sharing system
      for our 250+ titles to promote the reuse of articles (such as
      motoring, entertainment, gardening, holidays, etc) in as rich as
      format as possible.

      A major objective of the project is to store sets of layout data with
      each article, each set representing the "shape" with which the
      article has been composed in previous uses. Then a page makeup
      operator can select an article "shape" to fit the space available on
      a page, and place the article with this shape directly on the page
      without having to define the article layout manually.

      I am interested in using XSL-FO as the interchange format for these
      articles, and am looking for tools to convert this into and from the
      proprietary formats used by the page makeup applications we use -
      mainly Quark Xpress, but also Adobe InDesign and others.

      Is anyone aware of a supplier of Quark Xtensions which can import XSL-
      FO and create a Quark "article" (ie a collection of chained text
      boxes into which the article content is placed), and which can export
      such an article into XSL-FO for storage and reuse?


      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      ADVERTISEMENT






      Yahoo! Groups Links

      To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XSL-FO/

      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      XSL-FO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
    • Dave Pawson
      Call me cynical, but XML and UK publishers seem about 15 years out of synch? If you want to go the xml route, its doable, but expect the huh response from
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 5, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Call me cynical, but XML and UK publishers
        seem about 15 years out of synch?

        If you want to go the xml route,
        its doable, but expect the 'huh' response
        from many of your colleagues.

        I hope I'm wrong btw.

        regards DaveP


        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: icastleton105 [mailto:ian.castleton@...]
        >Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:50 AM
        >To: XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [XSL-FO] XSL-FO and Quark Xpress
        >
        >
        >I am an IT project manager for a large UK newspaper publisher. I am
        >investigating the possibility of building a content-sharing system
        >for our 250+ titles to promote the reuse of articles (such as
        >motoring, entertainment, gardening, holidays, etc) in as rich as
        >format as possible.
        >
        >A major objective of the project is to store sets of layout data with
        >each article, each set representing the "shape" with which the
        >article has been composed in previous uses. Then a page makeup
        >operator can select an article "shape" to fit the space available on
        >a page, and place the article with this shape directly on the page
        >without having to define the article layout manually.
        >
        >I am interested in using XSL-FO as the interchange format for these
        >articles, and am looking for tools to convert this into and from the
        >proprietary formats used by the page makeup applications we use -
        >mainly Quark Xpress, but also Adobe InDesign and others.
        >
        >Is anyone aware of a supplier of Quark Xtensions which can import XSL-
        >FO and create a Quark "article" (ie a collection of chained text
        >boxes into which the article content is placed), and which can export
        >such an article into XSL-FO for storage and reuse?
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        >ADVERTISEMENT
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >To visit your group on the web, go to:
        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XSL-FO/
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >XSL-FO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Eliot Kimber
        ... Unless the layouts for your articles are simpler than most, it is likely that XSL-FO 1.0 cannot meet your requirements. If you are trying to use FO to
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 5, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          > >A major objective of the project is to store sets of layout data with
          > >each article, each set representing the "shape" with which the
          > >article has been composed in previous uses. Then a page makeup
          > >operator can select an article "shape" to fit the space available on
          > >a page, and place the article with this shape directly on the page
          > >without having to define the article layout manually.
          > >
          > >I am interested in using XSL-FO as the interchange format for these
          > >articles, and am looking for tools to convert this into and from the
          > >proprietary formats used by the page makeup applications we use -
          > >mainly Quark Xpress, but also Adobe InDesign and others.

          Unless the layouts for your articles are simpler than most, it is likely
          that XSL-FO 1.0 cannot meet your requirements. If you are trying to use
          FO to represent the article in its pre-paginated form in such a way that
          an FO renderer would be able to produce a reasonable approximation of
          the printed article, I think there might be some limitations.

          Alternatively, you could do it if every page were treated as a set of
          absolutely-positioned block-containers with no explicit relationship
          between the blocks on different pages (that is, the FO would not be able
          to reflect the fact that the text at the start of a block on page 2 was
          in fact the continuation of the text in a block on page 1). But this
          would be sort of a twisted use of XSL-FO (although it might have some
          value--it's not competely clear what your business drivers are).

          That is, XSL-FO provides no direct way to express the sorts of
          multi-flow layouts one can design with Quark and InDesign and therefore
          may not be of much use as an interchange mechanism between those tools,
          except in the very brute force way mentioned above.

          I've done a good bit of analysis for journal publishers and one of my
          conclusions was that XSL-FO 1.0 is simply not up to the task of
          representing most journal and magazine layouts. XSL-FO 1.1 will get
          closer but will still not do everything that is required by what I
          characterize as "mildly-designed" publications, that is, journals that
          are more than just columns of content with graphics but that are not as
          designed as glossy magazines where you need things like
          arbitrarily-shaped runarounds and fine control over typographic details.
          It's important to remember that XSL-FO was designed, at least initially,
          to satisfy the requirements of documents that are traditionally produced
          in a very mechanical and regular way, such as business documents
          (reports, invoices, etc.) and technical documentation. It was not
          intended to satisfy the requirements of more heavily designed documents,
          such as periodicals.

          [Some of the design requirements could, at least in theory, be met by
          SVG embedded within XSL-FO (or visa versa), but for this vision to be
          fully realized I think there would need to be a more complete
          integration of SVG and XSL-FO such that one could embed flow objects in
          SVGs with the FO renderer and SVG renderer communicating with other. For
          example, one could imagine using SVG to define a curve that the FO
          renderer would then use as the boundary within which it rendered some
          set of flow objects, but this is beyond either current FO and SVG
          implementations or the standards they implement. I know this idea has
          long been in the minds behind both specifications, but you have to walk
          before you can run....]

          The areas that were most needed were:

          - Within-column top and bottom floats. XSL-FO 1.0 only provides
          full-page top floats and does not provide a bottom float distinct from
          footnotes (which can be used to achieve "bottom floats", but only if you
          don't also need footnotes on the same page).

          - Column footnotes (although both XEP and XSL Formatter provide
          extensions for column footnotes).

          - Ability to have text in two different columns be intruded upon by an
          absolutely-positioned area. For example, a typical page treatment is to
          have a two-column layout where the first page of the article has a
          graphic centered in the page and intruding about 1/2 away into each
          column. While XSL-FO 1.0 has side floats, which allow you to intrude
          into one column or the other, you have no way to intrude into both
          columns. You can simulate it with some clever tricks, but only if you
          can determine what content starts the second column.

          If you're looking for a reasonably generic XML representation of
          "designed" documents, you might take a look at the UltraXML product from
          WebX Systems (http://webxsystems.com/). It attempts to compete with
          Quark or InDesign but using a pure XML approach. It's not
          standards-based, because no standard currently exists for expressing
          these sorts of complex designs, but it's overall approach seems to be
          consistent with the general XSL-FO approach. It provides both
          interactive tweaking of presentation as well as batch-based composition
          using normal XML-to-XML transformation approaches. I haven't used it
          myself but from what I've seen it looks promising.

          Cheers,

          Eliot
          --
          W. Eliot Kimber
          Professional Services
          Innodata Isogen
          9030 Research Blvd, #410
          Austin, TX 78758
          (512) 372-8122

          eliot@...
          www.innodata-isogen.com
        • icastleton105
          ... likely ... to use ... that ... of ... Thanks for your feedback. The type of articles we are intending to reuse this way do in general have a fairly simple
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 9, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In XSL-FO@yahoogroups.com, Eliot Kimber <ekimber@i...> wrote:
            > Unless the layouts for your articles are simpler than most, it is
            likely
            > that XSL-FO 1.0 cannot meet your requirements. If you are trying
            to use
            > FO to represent the article in its pre-paginated form in such a way
            that
            > an FO renderer would be able to produce a reasonable approximation
            of
            > the printed article, I think there might be some limitations.
            >
            Thanks for your feedback. The type of articles we are intending to
            reuse this way do in general have a fairly simple layout, and will
            not flow across multiple pages. The aim of the project is to speed
            up (and possibly even automate) the page composition process,
            particularly for freesheets, by allowing the reuse of a library of
            pre-shaped articles, even if they do require manual editing to fit.

            > If you're looking for a reasonably generic XML representation of
            > "designed" documents, you might take a look at the UltraXML product
            from
            > WebX Systems (http://webxsystems.com/). It attempts to compete with
            > Quark or InDesign but using a pure XML approach. It's not
            > standards-based, because no standard currently exists for
            expressing
            > these sorts of complex designs, but it's overall approach seems to
            be
            > consistent with the general XSL-FO approach. It provides both
            > interactive tweaking of presentation as well as batch-based
            composition
            > using normal XML-to-XML transformation approaches. I haven't used
            it
            > myself but from what I've seen it looks promising.
            >
            UltraXML looks promising, but we have already built a content
            management system which can manage XML.

            Regards,

            Ian
          • Eliot Kimber
            ... I was only refering to the formatting/editing component of UltraXML. I have no opinion on their content management features having neither used nor
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 9, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              icastleton105 wrote:

              > > using normal XML-to-XML transformation approaches. I haven't used
              > it
              > > myself but from what I've seen it looks promising.
              > >
              > UltraXML looks promising, but we have already built a content
              > management system which can manage XML.

              I was only refering to the formatting/editing component of UltraXML. I
              have no opinion on their content management features having neither used
              nor researched them.

              Cheers,

              E.
              --
              W. Eliot Kimber
              Professional Services
              Innodata Isogen
              9030 Research Blvd, #410
              Austin, TX 78758
              (512) 372-8122

              eliot@...
              www.innodata-isogen.com
            • Klaas_Bals@inventivedesigners.com
              ... You might want to take a look at our Scriptura product, that allows you to visually design documents. It can export XSLT stylesheets that generate XSL-FO,
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 11, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                "icastleton105" <ian.castleton@...> wrote on 02/09/2004 01:25:41 PM:

                > Thanks for your feedback. The type of articles we are intending to
                > reuse this way do in general have a fairly simple layout, and will
                > not flow across multiple pages. The aim of the project is to speed
                > up (and possibly even automate) the page composition process,
                > particularly for freesheets, by allowing the reuse of a library of
                > pre-shaped articles, even if they do require manual editing to fit.

                You might want to take a look at our Scriptura product, that allows you to
                visually design documents. It can export XSLT stylesheets that generate
                XSL-FO, or you can use it to go to the final output format directly. It
                does support flowing of content to multiple pages etc, but as this is more
                difficult that not flowing to multiple pages, it can certainly satify your
                needs of generating just one page.

                Best regards,
                -----
                Klaas Bals - Technical Manager

                Scriptura - a WYSIWYG XSL-FO editor: www.scriptura-xsl.com

                Inventive Designers
                Direct Phone: +32 - 3 - 8210183
                Office Phone: +32 - 3 - 8210170
                Office Fax: +32 - 3 - 8210171
                Email: Klaas_Bals at inventivedesigners dot com
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.