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Precendence of Hidden border style

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  • W. Eliot Kimber
    I m working through the rules for border precendence when border-collapse= collapse-with-precendence . Reading the CSS2 section on borders (17.6.2), there is
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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      I'm working through the rules for border precendence when
      border-collapse="collapse-with-precendence".

      Reading the CSS2 section on borders (17.6.2), there is this statement:

      "Borders with the 'border-style' of 'hidden' take precedence over all
      other conflicting borders. Any border with this value suppresses all
      borders at this location."

      The second sentence seems to imply that "hidden" suppresses all borders,
      regardless of precendence value, but XSL Formatter doesn't do that.

      Since this statement is in the "border conflict" section, it would also
      be reasonable to interpret this to mean simply that "hidden" has a
      higher style precedence than the other style values and any border
      width, but if that's the case, why bother to make this stronger
      statement about the precendence of "hidden"?

      Which interpretation is correct?

      Thanks,

      Eliot
      --
      W. Eliot Kimber, eliot@...
      Consultant, ISOGEN International

      1016 La Posada Dr., Suite 240
      Austin, TX 78752 Phone: 512.656.4139
    • G. Ken Holman
      ... Actually, my experience is that XSL Formatter does do this. See the test below for an example I just prepared to illustrate this. I document on page 262
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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        At 2002-11-05 13:51 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
        >I'm working through the rules for border precendence when
        >border-collapse="collapse-with-precendence".
        >
        >Reading the CSS2 section on borders (17.6.2), there is this statement:
        >
        >"Borders with the 'border-style' of 'hidden' take precedence over all
        >other conflicting borders. Any border with this value suppresses all
        >borders at this location."
        >
        >The second sentence seems to imply that "hidden" suppresses all borders,
        >regardless of precendence value, but XSL Formatter doesn't do that.

        Actually, my experience is that XSL Formatter does do this. See the test
        below for an example I just prepared to illustrate this.

        I document on page 262 of the Third Edition of our book what I found in the
        documentation and experience how the style includes both "hidden" and
        "none" at different ends of the precedence spectrum.

        Note in my test below how the second last example shows the dotted cell
        being lower priority than the table but the hidden cell being higher
        priority than the table. The last example shows the dotted cell being
        higher priority than the "none" cell.

        I hope this helps.

        ............... Ken

        <block>Both cells solid </block>
        <table>
        <table-body>
        <table-row>
        <table-cell border-style="solid">
        <block>First</block>
        </table-cell>
        <table-cell border-style="solid">
        <block>Second</block>
        </table-cell>
        </table-row>
        </table-body>
        </table>
        <block>Both cells solid, the second cell start style is hidden</block>
        <table>
        <table-body>
        <table-row>
        <table-cell border-style="solid">
        <block>First</block>
        </table-cell>
        <table-cell border-style="solid" border-start-style="hidden">
        <block>Second</block>
        </table-cell>
        </table-row>
        </table-body>
        </table>
        <block>First cell solid, the second cell hidden</block>
        <table>
        <table-body>
        <table-row>
        <table-cell border-style="solid">
        <block>First</block>
        </table-cell>
        <table-cell border-style="hidden">
        <block>Second</block>
        </table-cell>
        </table-row>
        </table-body>
        </table>
        <block>First cell solid, the second cell none</block>
        <table>
        <table-body>
        <table-row>
        <table-cell border-style="solid">
        <block>First</block>
        </table-cell>
        <table-cell border-style="none">
        <block>Second</block>
        </table-cell>
        </table-row>
        </table-body>
        </table>
        <block>Table solid, first cell dotted, the second cell hidden</block>
        <table>
        <table-body border-style="solid">
        <table-row>
        <table-cell border-style="dotted">
        <block>First</block>
        </table-cell>
        <table-cell border-style="hidden">
        <block>Second</block>
        </table-cell>
        </table-row>
        </table-body>
        </table>
        <block>Table solid, first cell dotted, the second cell none</block>
        <table>
        <table-body border-style="solid">
        <table-row>
        <table-cell border-style="dotted">
        <block>First</block>
        </table-cell>
        <table-cell border-style="none">
        <block>Second</block>
        </table-cell>
        </table-row>
        </table-body>
        </table>


        --
        Upcoming hands-on in-depth XSLT/XPath and/or XSL-FO:
        - North America: Feb 3 - Feb 7,2003

        G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@...
        Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/f/
        Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995)
        ISBN 0-13-065196-6 Definitive XSLT and XPath
        ISBN 0-13-140374-5 Definitive XSL-FO
        ISBN 1-894049-08-X Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath
        ISBN 1-894049-10-1 Practical Formatting Using XSL-FO
        Next conference training: 2002-12-08,03-03,06
      • W. Eliot Kimber
        ... In your example all the conflicting rules have the same (implicit) precedence value. However, if you set the precedence so that the hidden border has a
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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          G. Ken Holman wrote:

          > Actually, my experience is that XSL Formatter does do this. See the test
          > below for an example I just prepared to illustrate this.

          In your example all the conflicting rules have the same (implicit)
          precedence value. However, if you set the precedence so that the hidden
          border has a lower numeric precedence than the other rule, the hidden
          rule is *not* applied. I can read the CSS2 spec as suggesting that it
          *should* be applied. But I can read it as suggesting that it shouldn't
          (that is, numeric precedence always governs).

          Cheers,

          E.
          --
          W. Eliot Kimber, eliot@...
          Consultant, ISOGEN International

          1016 La Posada Dr., Suite 240
          Austin, TX 78752 Phone: 512.656.4139
        • G. Ken Holman
          ... Really? I understand the table has higher precedence (5) than the cell (4) and that my demonstration shows how the cell s hidden is stronger than the
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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            At 2002-11-05 14:43 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
            >G. Ken Holman wrote:
            >
            > > Actually, my experience is that XSL Formatter does do this. See the test
            > > below for an example I just prepared to illustrate this.
            >
            >In your example all the conflicting rules have the same (implicit)
            >precedence value.

            Really? I understand the table has higher precedence (5) than the cell (4)
            and that my demonstration shows how the cell's "hidden" is stronger than
            the table's "solid".

            >However, if you set the precedence so that the hidden
            >border has a lower numeric precedence than the other rule, the hidden
            >rule is *not* applied.

            But according to 7.26.1-4 the table cell has lower precedence than the
            table, so my second last example illustrates the correct behaviour of the
            table's edge being hidden by the cell specification.

            >I can read the CSS2 spec as suggesting that it
            >*should* be applied. But I can read it as suggesting that it shouldn't
            >(that is, numeric precedence always governs).

            Remember that the XSL-FO spec overrides the CSS2 spec.

            Sections 7.26.1-4 show the implicit precedence of each of the constructs.

            Section 6.7.10 states "Any border with this value [hidden] suppresses all
            borders at this location".

            When I wrote page 262 of our book it was this same section that mentions
            how "none" is only ever invisible when *all* specifications are "none"
            (which happens to be the default).

            Does this help?

            .................. Ken


            --
            Upcoming hands-on in-depth XSLT/XPath and/or XSL-FO:
            - North America: Feb 3 - Feb 7,2003

            G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@...
            Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/f/
            Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995)
            ISBN 0-13-065196-6 Definitive XSLT and XPath
            ISBN 0-13-140374-5 Definitive XSL-FO
            ISBN 1-894049-08-X Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath
            ISBN 1-894049-10-1 Practical Formatting Using XSL-FO
            Next conference training: 2002-12-08,03-03,06
          • W. Eliot Kimber
            ... You are correct--I forgot about that. But in my sample, I m setting the precedence explicitly for two conflicting cells. e.g.:
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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              G. Ken Holman wrote:
              > At 2002-11-05 14:43 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
              >
              >>G. Ken Holman wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>>Actually, my experience is that XSL Formatter does do this. See the test
              >>>below for an example I just prepared to illustrate this.
              >>
              >>In your example all the conflicting rules have the same (implicit)
              >>precedence value.
              >
              >
              > Really? I understand the table has higher precedence (5) than the cell (4)
              > and that my demonstration shows how the cell's "hidden" is stronger than
              > the table's "solid".

              You are correct--I forgot about that. But in my sample, I'm setting the
              precedence explicitly for two conflicting cells. e.g.:

              <fo:table-row>
              <fo:table-cell
              border-end-precedence="9"
              border-end-style="hidden"
              border-end-width="2pt"
              ><fo:block>r1c1</fo:block</fo:table-cell>
              <fo:table-cell
              border-start-precedence="10"
              border-start-style="solid"
              border-end-width="2pt"
              ><fo:block>r1c2</fo:block</fo:table-cell>
              </fo:table-row>

              With this example, the conflicting rule is not hidden.

              > Section 6.7.10 states "Any border with this value [hidden] suppresses all
              > borders at this location".

              The problem I see is that the sentence prior to this one explicitly says
              "conficting borders"--it's ambiguous from these two sentences whether by
              "conflicting" is meant "borders with the same precedence and width" or
              "borders with a non-none value for style".

              I think that the former (stronger) meaning is intended, and it's clear
              that that's how you interpreted it as well. But my example above does
              not appear to reflect that interpretation with XSL Formatter (and XEP
              does not yet support rule collapsing).

              Cheers,

              E.
              --
              W. Eliot Kimber, eliot@...
              Consultant, ISOGEN International

              1016 La Posada Dr., Suite 240
              Austin, TX 78752 Phone: 512.656.4139
            • W. Eliot Kimber
              ... Interestingly, the default preferences for the different borders (table, row, etc.) seems to conflict with condition 5 in 6.7.10, which says that cell has
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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                G. Ken Holman wrote:

                > But according to 7.26.1-4 the table cell has lower precedence than the
                > table, so my second last example illustrates the correct behaviour of the
                > table's edge being hidden by the cell specification.

                Interestingly, the default preferences for the different borders (table,
                row, etc.) seems to conflict with condition 5 in 6.7.10, which says that
                cell has the highest. This statement only makes sense if all of the
                discussion of conflict resolution (the list and preceding para starting
                "If the value of the border-collapse trait is "collapse"...") is with
                respect to borders that have identical precedence values. This reading
                would support the behavior I'm seeing with XSL Formatter.

                Cheers,

                E.
                --
                W. Eliot Kimber, eliot@...
                Consultant, ISOGEN International

                1016 La Posada Dr., Suite 240
                Austin, TX 78752 Phone: 512.656.4139
              • G. Ken Holman
                ... I just added the above (with repairs to the markup) to my test page it is is, indeed, being hidden as I thought it should. Note that the fo:block isn t
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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                  At 2002-11-05 15:37 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
                  >G. Ken Holman wrote:
                  > > Really? I understand the table has higher precedence (5) than the cell
                  > (4)
                  > > and that my demonstration shows how the cell's "hidden" is stronger than
                  > > the table's "solid".
                  >
                  >You are correct--I forgot about that. But in my sample, I'm setting the
                  >precedence explicitly for two conflicting cells. e.g.:
                  >
                  ><fo:table-row>
                  ><fo:table-cell
                  > border-end-precedence="9"
                  > border-end-style="hidden"
                  > border-end-width="2pt"
                  > ><fo:block>r1c1</fo:block</fo:table-cell>
                  ><fo:table-cell
                  > border-start-precedence="10"
                  > border-start-style="solid"
                  > border-end-width="2pt"
                  > ><fo:block>r1c2</fo:block</fo:table-cell>
                  ></fo:table-row>
                  >
                  >With this example, the conflicting rule is not hidden.

                  I just added the above (with repairs to the markup) to my test page it is
                  is, indeed, being hidden as I thought it should. Note that the fo:block
                  isn't properly terminated and the second cell is setting the width of the
                  end, not the start.

                  So my version of XSL Formatter is working as expected ... I'm running
                  version 2.3.2002.1031 that I downloaded the other day: XFE23M1A.EXE ... I'm
                  not seeing what you are seeing, as I'm seeing the hidden overriding the
                  solid on the shared border, so no edges are showing at all.

                  I then modified it to make the second cell have the entire border turned
                  on, and I see the lower precedence hidden is correctly hiding the shared edge.

                  I've attached an image of what I see on my screen ... try the code below
                  and let me know how it works for you. Perhaps you are only dealing with an
                  old implementation issue.

                  ...................... Ken

                  <block space-before="20mm">Eliot's test unmodified (but fixed)</block>
                  <table>
                  <table-body>
                  <table-row>
                  <table-cell
                  border-end-precedence="9"
                  border-end-style="hidden"
                  border-end-width="2pt"
                  ><block>r1c1</block></table-cell>
                  <table-cell
                  border-start-precedence="10"
                  border-start-style="solid"
                  border-start-width="2pt"
                  ><block>r1c2</block></table-cell>
                  </table-row>
                  </table-body>
                  </table>

                  <block>Eliot's test modified</block>
                  <table>
                  <table-body>
                  <table-row>
                  <table-cell
                  border-end-precedence="9"
                  border-end-style="hidden"
                  border-end-width="2pt"
                  ><block>r1c1</block></table-cell>
                  <table-cell
                  border-start-precedence="10"
                  border-style="solid"
                  border-start-width="2pt"
                  ><block>r1c2</block></table-cell>
                  </table-row>
                  </table-body>
                  </table>

                  ----------


                  --
                  Upcoming hands-on in-depth XSLT/XPath and/or XSL-FO:
                  - North America: Feb 3 - Feb 7,2003

                  G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@...
                  Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/f/
                  Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995)
                  ISBN 0-13-065196-6 Definitive XSLT and XPath
                  ISBN 0-13-140374-5 Definitive XSL-FO
                  ISBN 1-894049-08-X Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath
                  ISBN 1-894049-10-1 Practical Formatting Using XSL-FO
                  Next conference training: 2002-12-08,03-03,06


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • G. Ken Holman
                  ... The attachment didn t make it through. What I have is in ASCII graphics as: Eliot s test unmodified (but fixed) r1c1 r1c2 Eliot s test modified ... r1c1
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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                    At 2002-11-05 18:30 -0500, I wrote:
                    >I've attached an image of what I see on my screen ... try the code below
                    >and let me know how it works for you. Perhaps you are only dealing with an
                    >old implementation issue.

                    The attachment didn't make it through.

                    What I have is in ASCII graphics as:

                    Eliot's test unmodified (but fixed)

                    r1c1 r1c2

                    Eliot's test modified
                    ------
                    r1c1 r1c2 |
                    ------

                    Which is what I would expect. In both cases the first cell's "hidden" is
                    overriding the higher precedence "solid" of the next cell.

                    ................. Ken

                    <block space-before="20mm">Eliot's test unmodified (but fixed)</block>
                    <table>
                    <table-body>
                    <table-row>
                    <table-cell
                    border-end-precedence="9"
                    border-end-style="hidden"
                    border-end-width="2pt"
                    ><block>r1c1</block></table-cell>
                    <table-cell
                    border-start-precedence="10"
                    border-start-style="solid"
                    border-start-width="2pt"
                    ><block>r1c2</block></table-cell>
                    </table-row>
                    </table-body>
                    </table>

                    <block>Eliot's test modified</block>
                    <table>
                    <table-body>
                    <table-row>
                    <table-cell
                    border-end-precedence="9"
                    border-end-style="hidden"
                    border-end-width="2pt"
                    ><block>r1c1</block></table-cell>
                    <table-cell
                    border-start-precedence="10"
                    border-style="solid"
                    border-start-width="2pt"
                    ><block>r1c2</block></table-cell>
                    </table-row>
                    </table-body>
                    </table>


                    --
                    Upcoming hands-on in-depth XSLT/XPath and/or XSL-FO:
                    - North America: Feb 3 - Feb 7,2003

                    G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@...
                    Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/f/
                    Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995)
                    ISBN 0-13-065196-6 Definitive XSLT and XPath
                    ISBN 0-13-140374-5 Definitive XSL-FO
                    ISBN 1-894049-08-X Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath
                    ISBN 1-894049-10-1 Practical Formatting Using XSL-FO
                    Next conference training: 2002-12-08,03-03,06
                  • W. Eliot Kimber
                    ... The difference is I m specifying collapse-with-precedence, not collapse. When I specify border-collapse= collapse , I get Ken s result. When I specify
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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                      G. Ken Holman wrote:

                      > I just added the above (with repairs to the markup) to my test page it is
                      > is, indeed, being hidden as I thought it should. Note that the fo:block
                      > isn't properly terminated and the second cell is setting the width of the
                      > end, not the start.

                      The difference is I'm specifying collapse-with-precedence, not collapse.
                      When I specify border-collapse="collapse", I get Ken's result. When I
                      specify collapse-with-precedence, I get my results.

                      That makes sense to the degree that the "collapse" reflects the pure
                      CSS2 collapse model and I don't think there's any ambiguity about the
                      intepretation of "hidden" for "collapse".

                      However, I still think it's unclear whether or not hidden should always
                      take precedence for "collapse-with-precedence". I think XSL Formatter's
                      implementation is a reasonable one but I can't completely justify it
                      given the words in the spec.

                      Cheers,

                      E.

                      --
                      W. Eliot Kimber, eliot@...
                      Consultant, ISOGEN International

                      1016 La Posada Dr., Suite 240
                      Austin, TX 78752 Phone: 512.656.4139
                    • G. Ken Holman
                      ... I agree ... I ve just tried it with collapse-with-precedence. ... Granted ... we are now singing from the same song sheet. ... What if we looked at 6.7.10
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 5, 2002
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                        At 2002-11-05 17:52 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
                        >The difference is I'm specifying collapse-with-precedence, not collapse.
                        >When I specify border-collapse="collapse", I get Ken's result. When I
                        >specify collapse-with-precedence, I get my results.

                        I agree ... I've just tried it with collapse-with-precedence.

                        >That makes sense to the degree that the "collapse" reflects the pure
                        >CSS2 collapse model and I don't think there's any ambiguity about the
                        >intepretation of "hidden" for "collapse".

                        Granted ... we are now singing from the same song sheet.

                        >However, I still think it's unclear whether or not hidden should always
                        >take precedence for "collapse-with-precedence". I think XSL Formatter's
                        >implementation is a reasonable one but I can't completely justify it
                        >given the words in the spec.

                        What if we looked at 6.7.10 as follows?

                        - my observations regarding hidden having precedence are
                        based on behaviours explicitly described under the
                        paragraph starting "If the border-collapse trait is
                        collapse..." and are numbered as to associate those
                        points only with a trait of that value
                        - the preceding paragraph starting "If the border-collapse
                        trait is collapse-with-precedence" explicitly states:
                        "the border for each side of the cell is determined by,
                        for each segment of a border, selecting, from all
                        border specifications for that segment, the border
                        that has the highest precedence."
                        - there is nothing in collapse-with-precedence that has
                        anything to do with style, therefore, all determination
                        is being done with precedence (hence, I suppose, the
                        name!)

                        And that I think is sufficient justification for the XSL Formatter behaviour.

                        Interestingly, I'm now getting some undesirable wrapping of the first cell,
                        but I am getting a border that is not overridden by the hidden.

                        Eliot's test unmodified (but fixed)

                        r1c1 r1c2

                        Eliot's test modified
                        ------
                        r1c1 r1c2 |
                        ------
                        Eliot's test using collapse-with-precedence
                        -------
                        r1c |r1c2 |
                        1 -------

                        All along in this discussion I was thinking of "collapse" and I never
                        considered "collapse-with-precedence", so I apologize for not having even
                        looked at that part of the spec during my writing today.

                        Now I have to add this caveat to page 262 of the book.

                        Thanks, Eliot, for working through this with me. Please let me know if you
                        still have reservations regarding the XSL Formatter behaviour, because I've
                        been convinced by what I cited above (except for the undesirable wrapping).

                        ..................... Ken

                        <block space-before="20mm">Eliot's test unmodified (but fixed)</block>
                        <table>
                        <table-body>
                        <table-row>
                        <table-cell
                        border-end-precedence="9"
                        border-end-style="hidden"
                        border-end-width="2pt"
                        ><block>r1c1</block></table-cell>
                        <table-cell
                        border-start-precedence="10"
                        border-start-style="solid"
                        border-start-width="2pt"
                        ><block>r1c2</block></table-cell>
                        </table-row>
                        </table-body>
                        </table>

                        <block>Eliot's test modified</block>
                        <table>
                        <table-body>
                        <table-row>
                        <table-cell
                        border-end-precedence="9"
                        border-end-style="hidden"
                        border-end-width="2pt"
                        ><block>r1c1</block></table-cell>
                        <table-cell
                        border-start-precedence="10"
                        border-style="solid"
                        border-start-width="2pt"
                        ><block>r1c2</block></table-cell>
                        </table-row>
                        </table-body>
                        </table>

                        <block>Eliot's test using collapse-with-precedence</block>
                        <table border-collapse="collapse-with-precedence">
                        <table-body>
                        <table-row>
                        <table-cell
                        border-end-precedence="9"
                        border-end-style="hidden"
                        border-end-width="2pt"
                        ><block>r1c1</block></table-cell>
                        <table-cell
                        border-start-precedence="10"
                        border-style="solid"
                        border-start-width="2pt"
                        ><block>r1c2</block></table-cell>
                        </table-row>
                        </table-body>
                        </table>



                        --
                        Upcoming hands-on in-depth XSLT/XPath and/or XSL-FO:
                        - North America: Feb 3 - Feb 7,2003

                        G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@...
                        Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/f/
                        Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (F:-0995)
                        ISBN 0-13-065196-6 Definitive XSLT and XPath
                        ISBN 0-13-140374-5 Definitive XSL-FO
                        ISBN 1-894049-08-X Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath
                        ISBN 1-894049-10-1 Practical Formatting Using XSL-FO
                        Next conference training: 2002-12-08,03-03,06
                      • W. Eliot Kimber
                        ... I think you are correct--I think I was reading precedence in that paragraph in the generic sense (the sense it is meant for collapse ) and not in the
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 6, 2002
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                          G. Ken Holman wrote:

                          >>However, I still think it's unclear whether or not hidden should always
                          >>take precedence for "collapse-with-precedence". I think XSL Formatter's
                          >>implementation is a reasonable one but I can't completely justify it
                          >>given the words in the spec.
                          >
                          >
                          > What if we looked at 6.7.10 as follows?
                          >
                          > - my observations regarding hidden having precedence are
                          > based on behaviours explicitly described under the
                          > paragraph starting "If the border-collapse trait is
                          > collapse..." and are numbered as to associate those
                          > points only with a trait of that value
                          > - the preceding paragraph starting "If the border-collapse
                          > trait is collapse-with-precedence" explicitly states:
                          > "the border for each side of the cell is determined by,
                          > for each segment of a border, selecting, from all
                          > border specifications for that segment, the border
                          > that has the highest precedence."
                          > - there is nothing in collapse-with-precedence that has
                          > anything to do with style, therefore, all determination
                          > is being done with precedence (hence, I suppose, the
                          > name!)
                          >
                          > And that I think is sufficient justification for the XSL Formatter behaviour.

                          I think you are correct--I think I was reading precedence in that
                          paragraph in the generic sense (the sense it is meant for "collapse")
                          and not in the border-*-precedence sense.

                          Thanks, I feel better about this now.

                          Cheers,

                          E.
                          --
                          W. Eliot Kimber, eliot@...
                          Consultant, ISOGEN International

                          1016 La Posada Dr., Suite 240
                          Austin, TX 78752 Phone: 512.656.4139
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