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Re: 1.1.2 Formatting ...please help

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  • r_diblasi@hotmail.com
    Hello Andrew, Amen..... I believe your crack at the concept that was trying to be explained in the XSL spec is much clearer. I still think that the uses of
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
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      Hello Andrew,

      Amen.....
      I believe your "crack" at the concept that was trying to be
      explained in the XSL spec is much clearer.

      I still think that the uses of "result tree" (XSLT term I
      believe) and "element and attribute tree" can cause trouble if used
      loosely....

      I'm still having trouble with a phrase that is used:
      "Tree transformation constructs the result tree. In XSL,
      this tree is called the element and attribute tree, with objects
      primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."


      "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????

      What is the spec trying to say????


      As far as I under stand XSL I read so far is:
      (This may not be correct please feel free to pick at :-)

      (tree transformation) the source document is checked by the XSLT
      namespace for "patterns". If a "pattern" is
      found in the source content it is said
      to "match" the XSLT namespace. The XSLT
      namespace checks to see what should happen if
      a "match" has occurred...by looking at its
      Template. The template is a tree fragment. So,
      as pattern are found in the source document
      that match the XSLT namespace, tree fragments
      are produced. the production is called the
      "result tree".

      As the "result tree" is being produced is now
      Processed by XSL namespace. The "result tree" is
      now called the "element and attribute tree".
      When a pattern is the "element and attribute
      tree matches the XSL namespace a Formatting
      Object (fo)is inserted into the "element and
      attribute tree". the tree that is produced by
      this process is called the "formatted Object
      tree"

      .........I'll stop here before I make much of a fool of myself :-)

      well.....any comments would be great....
      correction to the above welcomed.....

      sorry for the long post....
      Robert A. DiBlasi

      --- In XSL-FO@egroups.com, AndrewWatt2001@a... wrote:
      > In a message dated 16/01/01 03:01:30 GMT Standard Time,
      r_diblasi@h...
      > writes:
      >
      > Hi Robert,
      >
      > My $0.02 follows below.
      >
      > > Hello,
      > >
      > > What the hell.........I have been reading this sentence over
      and
      > > over
      > > and I understand each part but I do not understand the whole.....
      > >
      > > Formatting 1.1.2
      > > "Formatting interprets the result tree in its formatting
      object
      > > tree form to produce the presentation intended by the designer
      of the
      > > stylesheet from which the XML element and attribute tree in
      the "fo"
      > > namespace was constructed."
      >
      > I think the short answer is that it is a badly drafted sentence.
      There are,
      > IMHO, more than a few them in the current XSL-FO CR. If you examine
      the
      > XSL-FO CR you will see that there is no identified "editor", unlike
      the
      > position with a typical W3C spec in development. The absence of
      mention of an
      > identified editor seems to be reflected in the absence, at this
      stage, of
      > consistently tight editing of the text.
      >
      > > I think the last part is driving me crazy.....
      > >
      > > "the stylesheet from which the XML element and attribute tree in
      > > the "fo" namespace was constructed."
      >
      > I think you have probably broken the sentence at the wrong place.
      Having said
      > that try reading the whole sentence replacing "stylesheet from
      which" with
      > "stylesheet using which". That is closer to what I think the
      editors mean.
      >
      > > Someone with a good heart help me.....
      > >
      > > I believe it to mean
      > > Formatting interprets the result tree in its formatting
      object
      > > form......(with Formating objects in the the result tree) .....
      > > to product the presentation intended by the designer of the
      > > spreedsheet.......it all goes to hell after this point :-)....
      >
      > BTW when writing out the sentence you replace "produce"
      with "product" which
      > makes it worse. :)
      >
      > LOL ... I have just scrubbed the reply I was about to make. I
      thought I had
      > cracked it, but then it slipped through my fingers. :) Proves your
      point I
      > guess. It's a horrible sentence. :)
      >
      > My attempt at a better version:
      >
      > "Formatting is the final step of a multi-step process. The first
      step is the
      > production of an XML element and attribute tree (also known as
      a "result
      > tree"), using an XSL style sheet and XML source document. The
      result tree is
      > "objectified" into a tree in the XSL-FO Namespace. Formatting is
      the process
      > of interpreting the result tree (the XML element and attribute
      tree), in its
      > formatting object form, into a display [or visual presentation].".
      >
      > Just my $0.02.
      >
      > I would also say that for the XSL editors to attempt to equate the
      > "intention" of the designer with the actual process of
      > formatting/presentation is unwise. That only applies if the
      designer
      > correctly writes a stylesheet to actually produce the result.
      >
      > In addition there is a further background suspicion I have (but
      haven't yet
      > had time to look at properly) - that the term "formatting" is being
      used in
      > more than one sense in the XSL-FO CR.
      >
      > > Help....
      > > Robert A. DiBlasi
      >
      > I hope that's clearer. BTW if you look at the diagram a little
      later in
      > Section 1.1.2 that might help you visualise it.
      >
      > I have copied this reply to the XSL-editors at W3C. Hopefully they
      will take
      > the problems with this sentence into account when further
      drafting/editing
      > takes place. And if we have both failed to understand the meaning
      that is
      > intended they may, hopefully, provide a response which can be
      posted on list.
      >
      > Andrew Watt
    • AndrewWatt2001@aol.com
      In a message dated 16/01/01 19:14:49 GMT Standard Time, r_diblasi@hotmail.com ... Robert, Due to time constraints I will respond only to this question at
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
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        In a message dated 16/01/01 19:14:49 GMT Standard Time, r_diblasi@...
        writes:

        > "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????
        >
        > What is the spec trying to say????

        Robert,

        Due to time constraints I will respond only to this question at present.

        The XSL-FO spec uses three terms (as I read it) for the same thing - in each
        case the namespace URI is http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Format.

        The spec, as I recall, uses three terms each of which appears to me to refer
        to that same namespace URI and therefore mean the same.

        The three terms are:

        1. XSL Namespace
        2. "fo" namespace
        3. "formatting objects" namespace

        I am doing all this from memory so forgive me if I slip up on a word or two.

        The spec also goes on to refer to "the" XSL Namespace.

        But there are, in fact, two "XSL" Namespaces. XSL consists of both XSLT and
        XSL-FO. The CR needs to edited more tightly in my opinion to reflect that
        reality.

        There is (my terms)
        1. An XSLT namespace for which the namespace URI is
        http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform
        and
        2. An XSL-FO namespace for which the namespace URI is
        http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Format.

        Since both XSLT and XSL-FO **together** constitute "XSL" we have two distinct
        "XSL" namespaces with the respective namespace URIs which I have just given.

        In my view the XSL spec editors need to take that on board and introduce
        greater precision and consistency in the use of terms.

        I posted on another list recently about a related issue. I will try to dig
        that out and post it within the next hour or two.

        Andrew Watt
      • r_diblasi@hotmail.com
        Hello Chris, Bingo.... That is what I was looking for...a simple, boiled down, no nonsence, explanation......I hope thats what we are are looking for!! nice
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
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          Hello Chris,

          Bingo....
          That is what I was looking for...a simple, boiled down, no
          nonsence, explanation......I hope thats what we are are looking for!!

          nice touch....adding the SVG namespace :-)

          thanks for your comment
          Robert A. DiBlasi


          --- In XSL-FO@egroups.com, "Chris Ryland" <cpr@e...> wrote:

          I think all it's trying to say is that, after tree transformation by
          XLST, the resulting tree is mostly FO objects (with the possibility
          of other namespace objects, such as SVG).

          Cheers!
          Chris Ryland * Em Software, Inc. * www.emsoftware.com
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: r_diblasi@h...
          > To: XSL-FO@egroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:27 AM
          > Subject: [XSL-FO] Re: 1.1.2 Formatting ...please help
          >
          >
          > Hello Andrew,
          >
          > Amen.....
          > I believe your "crack" at the concept that was trying to
          be
          > explained in the XSL spec is much clearer.
          >
          > I still think that the uses of "result tree" (XSLT term I
          > believe) and "element and attribute tree" can cause trouble if
          used
          > loosely....
          >
          > I'm still having trouble with a phrase that is used:
          > "Tree transformation constructs the result tree. In XSL,
          > this tree is called the element and attribute tree, with objects
          > primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."
          >
          >
          > "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????
          >
          > What is the spec trying to say????
        • Chris Ryland
          I think all it s trying to say is that, after tree transformation by XLST, the resulting tree is mostly FO objects (with the possibility of other namespace
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
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            I think all it's trying to say is that, after tree transformation by XLST, the resulting tree is mostly FO objects (with the possibility of other namespace objects, such as SVG).

            Cheers!
            Chris Ryland * Em Software, Inc. * www.emsoftware.com
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:27 AM
            Subject: [XSL-FO] Re: 1.1.2 Formatting ...please help

            Hello Andrew,

            Amen.....
                   I believe your "crack" at the concept that was trying to be
            explained in the XSL spec is much clearer.

                  I still think that the uses of "result tree" (XSLT term I
            believe) and "element and attribute tree" can cause trouble if  used
            loosely....

            I'm still having trouble with a phrase that is used:
                     "Tree transformation constructs the result tree. In XSL,
            this tree is called the element and attribute tree, with objects
            primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."


            "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????

            What is the spec trying to say????
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