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Re: [XSL-FO] 1.1.2 Formatting ...please help

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  • AndrewWatt2001@aol.com
    In a message dated 16/01/01 03:01:30 GMT Standard Time, r_diblasi@hotmail.com writes: Hi Robert, My $0.02 follows below. ... I think the short answer is that
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
      In a message dated 16/01/01 03:01:30 GMT Standard Time, r_diblasi@...
      writes:

      Hi Robert,

      My $0.02 follows below.

      > Hello,
      >
      > What the hell.........I have been reading this sentence over and
      > over
      > and I understand each part but I do not understand the whole.....
      >
      > Formatting 1.1.2
      > "Formatting interprets the result tree in its formatting object
      > tree form to produce the presentation intended by the designer of the
      > stylesheet from which the XML element and attribute tree in the "fo"
      > namespace was constructed."

      I think the short answer is that it is a badly drafted sentence. There are,
      IMHO, more than a few them in the current XSL-FO CR. If you examine the
      XSL-FO CR you will see that there is no identified "editor", unlike the
      position with a typical W3C spec in development. The absence of mention of an
      identified editor seems to be reflected in the absence, at this stage, of
      consistently tight editing of the text.

      > I think the last part is driving me crazy.....
      >
      > "the stylesheet from which the XML element and attribute tree in
      > the "fo" namespace was constructed."

      I think you have probably broken the sentence at the wrong place. Having said
      that try reading the whole sentence replacing "stylesheet from which" with
      "stylesheet using which". That is closer to what I think the editors mean.

      > Someone with a good heart help me.....
      >
      > I believe it to mean
      > Formatting interprets the result tree in its formatting object
      > form......(with Formating objects in the the result tree) .....
      > to product the presentation intended by the designer of the
      > spreedsheet.......it all goes to hell after this point :-)....

      BTW when writing out the sentence you replace "produce" with "product" which
      makes it worse. :)

      LOL ... I have just scrubbed the reply I was about to make. I thought I had
      cracked it, but then it slipped through my fingers. :) Proves your point I
      guess. It's a horrible sentence. :)

      My attempt at a better version:

      "Formatting is the final step of a multi-step process. The first step is the
      production of an XML element and attribute tree (also known as a "result
      tree"), using an XSL style sheet and XML source document. The result tree is
      "objectified" into a tree in the XSL-FO Namespace. Formatting is the process
      of interpreting the result tree (the XML element and attribute tree), in its
      formatting object form, into a display [or visual presentation].".

      Just my $0.02.

      I would also say that for the XSL editors to attempt to equate the
      "intention" of the designer with the actual process of
      formatting/presentation is unwise. That only applies if the designer
      correctly writes a stylesheet to actually produce the result.

      In addition there is a further background suspicion I have (but haven't yet
      had time to look at properly) - that the term "formatting" is being used in
      more than one sense in the XSL-FO CR.

      > Help....
      > Robert A. DiBlasi

      I hope that's clearer. BTW if you look at the diagram a little later in
      Section 1.1.2 that might help you visualise it.

      I have copied this reply to the XSL-editors at W3C. Hopefully they will take
      the problems with this sentence into account when further drafting/editing
      takes place. And if we have both failed to understand the meaning that is
      intended they may, hopefully, provide a response which can be posted on list.

      Andrew Watt
    • r_diblasi@hotmail.com
      Hello Andrew, Amen..... I believe your crack at the concept that was trying to be explained in the XSL spec is much clearer. I still think that the uses of
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
        Hello Andrew,

        Amen.....
        I believe your "crack" at the concept that was trying to be
        explained in the XSL spec is much clearer.

        I still think that the uses of "result tree" (XSLT term I
        believe) and "element and attribute tree" can cause trouble if used
        loosely....

        I'm still having trouble with a phrase that is used:
        "Tree transformation constructs the result tree. In XSL,
        this tree is called the element and attribute tree, with objects
        primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."


        "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????

        What is the spec trying to say????


        As far as I under stand XSL I read so far is:
        (This may not be correct please feel free to pick at :-)

        (tree transformation) the source document is checked by the XSLT
        namespace for "patterns". If a "pattern" is
        found in the source content it is said
        to "match" the XSLT namespace. The XSLT
        namespace checks to see what should happen if
        a "match" has occurred...by looking at its
        Template. The template is a tree fragment. So,
        as pattern are found in the source document
        that match the XSLT namespace, tree fragments
        are produced. the production is called the
        "result tree".

        As the "result tree" is being produced is now
        Processed by XSL namespace. The "result tree" is
        now called the "element and attribute tree".
        When a pattern is the "element and attribute
        tree matches the XSL namespace a Formatting
        Object (fo)is inserted into the "element and
        attribute tree". the tree that is produced by
        this process is called the "formatted Object
        tree"

        .........I'll stop here before I make much of a fool of myself :-)

        well.....any comments would be great....
        correction to the above welcomed.....

        sorry for the long post....
        Robert A. DiBlasi

        --- In XSL-FO@egroups.com, AndrewWatt2001@a... wrote:
        > In a message dated 16/01/01 03:01:30 GMT Standard Time,
        r_diblasi@h...
        > writes:
        >
        > Hi Robert,
        >
        > My $0.02 follows below.
        >
        > > Hello,
        > >
        > > What the hell.........I have been reading this sentence over
        and
        > > over
        > > and I understand each part but I do not understand the whole.....
        > >
        > > Formatting 1.1.2
        > > "Formatting interprets the result tree in its formatting
        object
        > > tree form to produce the presentation intended by the designer
        of the
        > > stylesheet from which the XML element and attribute tree in
        the "fo"
        > > namespace was constructed."
        >
        > I think the short answer is that it is a badly drafted sentence.
        There are,
        > IMHO, more than a few them in the current XSL-FO CR. If you examine
        the
        > XSL-FO CR you will see that there is no identified "editor", unlike
        the
        > position with a typical W3C spec in development. The absence of
        mention of an
        > identified editor seems to be reflected in the absence, at this
        stage, of
        > consistently tight editing of the text.
        >
        > > I think the last part is driving me crazy.....
        > >
        > > "the stylesheet from which the XML element and attribute tree in
        > > the "fo" namespace was constructed."
        >
        > I think you have probably broken the sentence at the wrong place.
        Having said
        > that try reading the whole sentence replacing "stylesheet from
        which" with
        > "stylesheet using which". That is closer to what I think the
        editors mean.
        >
        > > Someone with a good heart help me.....
        > >
        > > I believe it to mean
        > > Formatting interprets the result tree in its formatting
        object
        > > form......(with Formating objects in the the result tree) .....
        > > to product the presentation intended by the designer of the
        > > spreedsheet.......it all goes to hell after this point :-)....
        >
        > BTW when writing out the sentence you replace "produce"
        with "product" which
        > makes it worse. :)
        >
        > LOL ... I have just scrubbed the reply I was about to make. I
        thought I had
        > cracked it, but then it slipped through my fingers. :) Proves your
        point I
        > guess. It's a horrible sentence. :)
        >
        > My attempt at a better version:
        >
        > "Formatting is the final step of a multi-step process. The first
        step is the
        > production of an XML element and attribute tree (also known as
        a "result
        > tree"), using an XSL style sheet and XML source document. The
        result tree is
        > "objectified" into a tree in the XSL-FO Namespace. Formatting is
        the process
        > of interpreting the result tree (the XML element and attribute
        tree), in its
        > formatting object form, into a display [or visual presentation].".
        >
        > Just my $0.02.
        >
        > I would also say that for the XSL editors to attempt to equate the
        > "intention" of the designer with the actual process of
        > formatting/presentation is unwise. That only applies if the
        designer
        > correctly writes a stylesheet to actually produce the result.
        >
        > In addition there is a further background suspicion I have (but
        haven't yet
        > had time to look at properly) - that the term "formatting" is being
        used in
        > more than one sense in the XSL-FO CR.
        >
        > > Help....
        > > Robert A. DiBlasi
        >
        > I hope that's clearer. BTW if you look at the diagram a little
        later in
        > Section 1.1.2 that might help you visualise it.
        >
        > I have copied this reply to the XSL-editors at W3C. Hopefully they
        will take
        > the problems with this sentence into account when further
        drafting/editing
        > takes place. And if we have both failed to understand the meaning
        that is
        > intended they may, hopefully, provide a response which can be
        posted on list.
        >
        > Andrew Watt
      • AndrewWatt2001@aol.com
        In a message dated 16/01/01 19:14:49 GMT Standard Time, r_diblasi@hotmail.com ... Robert, Due to time constraints I will respond only to this question at
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
          In a message dated 16/01/01 19:14:49 GMT Standard Time, r_diblasi@...
          writes:

          > "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????
          >
          > What is the spec trying to say????

          Robert,

          Due to time constraints I will respond only to this question at present.

          The XSL-FO spec uses three terms (as I read it) for the same thing - in each
          case the namespace URI is http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Format.

          The spec, as I recall, uses three terms each of which appears to me to refer
          to that same namespace URI and therefore mean the same.

          The three terms are:

          1. XSL Namespace
          2. "fo" namespace
          3. "formatting objects" namespace

          I am doing all this from memory so forgive me if I slip up on a word or two.

          The spec also goes on to refer to "the" XSL Namespace.

          But there are, in fact, two "XSL" Namespaces. XSL consists of both XSLT and
          XSL-FO. The CR needs to edited more tightly in my opinion to reflect that
          reality.

          There is (my terms)
          1. An XSLT namespace for which the namespace URI is
          http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform
          and
          2. An XSL-FO namespace for which the namespace URI is
          http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Format.

          Since both XSLT and XSL-FO **together** constitute "XSL" we have two distinct
          "XSL" namespaces with the respective namespace URIs which I have just given.

          In my view the XSL spec editors need to take that on board and introduce
          greater precision and consistency in the use of terms.

          I posted on another list recently about a related issue. I will try to dig
          that out and post it within the next hour or two.

          Andrew Watt
        • r_diblasi@hotmail.com
          Hello Chris, Bingo.... That is what I was looking for...a simple, boiled down, no nonsence, explanation......I hope thats what we are are looking for!! nice
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
            Hello Chris,

            Bingo....
            That is what I was looking for...a simple, boiled down, no
            nonsence, explanation......I hope thats what we are are looking for!!

            nice touch....adding the SVG namespace :-)

            thanks for your comment
            Robert A. DiBlasi


            --- In XSL-FO@egroups.com, "Chris Ryland" <cpr@e...> wrote:

            I think all it's trying to say is that, after tree transformation by
            XLST, the resulting tree is mostly FO objects (with the possibility
            of other namespace objects, such as SVG).

            Cheers!
            Chris Ryland * Em Software, Inc. * www.emsoftware.com
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: r_diblasi@h...
            > To: XSL-FO@egroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:27 AM
            > Subject: [XSL-FO] Re: 1.1.2 Formatting ...please help
            >
            >
            > Hello Andrew,
            >
            > Amen.....
            > I believe your "crack" at the concept that was trying to
            be
            > explained in the XSL spec is much clearer.
            >
            > I still think that the uses of "result tree" (XSLT term I
            > believe) and "element and attribute tree" can cause trouble if
            used
            > loosely....
            >
            > I'm still having trouble with a phrase that is used:
            > "Tree transformation constructs the result tree. In XSL,
            > this tree is called the element and attribute tree, with objects
            > primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."
            >
            >
            > "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????
            >
            > What is the spec trying to say????
          • Chris Ryland
            I think all it s trying to say is that, after tree transformation by XLST, the resulting tree is mostly FO objects (with the possibility of other namespace
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 16, 2001
              I think all it's trying to say is that, after tree transformation by XLST, the resulting tree is mostly FO objects (with the possibility of other namespace objects, such as SVG).

              Cheers!
              Chris Ryland * Em Software, Inc. * www.emsoftware.com
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:27 AM
              Subject: [XSL-FO] Re: 1.1.2 Formatting ...please help

              Hello Andrew,

              Amen.....
                     I believe your "crack" at the concept that was trying to be
              explained in the XSL spec is much clearer.

                    I still think that the uses of "result tree" (XSLT term I
              believe) and "element and attribute tree" can cause trouble if  used
              loosely....

              I'm still having trouble with a phrase that is used:
                       "Tree transformation constructs the result tree. In XSL,
              this tree is called the element and attribute tree, with objects
              primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."


              "with objects primarily in the "formatting object" namespace."????

              What is the spec trying to say????
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