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Re: Kabir's true intentions for joining & posting in this group...

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  • Michael Martin
    MM: Jim was mostly kidding, I m sure. I know that Eckankar teaches the light/sound path, so I was just wondering if any of you still believe in that path. I
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2004
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      MM:
      Jim was mostly kidding, I'm sure. I know that Eckankar teaches the
      light/sound path, so I was just wondering if any of you still believe
      in that path. I thought we might have some common beliefs. I was as
      frank, honest, and forthcoming, in my first message that I could
      possibly be, at least, I thought.

      Sant Mat doesn't believe in forcibly recruiting anyone. It does
      believe in discussing the truth with sincere seekers. There is
      nothing wrong with recruiting, by the way. Walt Whitman, a Param
      Saint, wrote, "I'll recruit with you." Jesus Christ's recruiting is
      well-known.

      If somebody is seeking the truth, and I know the truth, then I see
      it, as my duty, as a human being, to offer the truth to the sincere
      seeker. This has been practiced by Saints, Mystics, and Mahatmas,
      since time immemorial.

      Michael

      --- In X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com, "incensestiks" <dustyrose@c...>
      wrote:
      > I lifted this from his group....they have public archives, so you
      > can see for yourself....red flag warning...they are using cult
      > tactics with us....
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lightfromsoundoasis/
      >
      > First I'll give the answer I posted in regard to them in this
      > matter, then I will post what they've been posting over there all
      > day about infiltrating and trying to recruit the ex-eckists into
      > their group. Bunch of morons! Here is my answer I just posted over
      > there....
      >
      > <<I joined this group in good faith. I have not tried to sway any
      of
      > you away from your path, nor have I tried to recruit you. I would
      > expect the same respect from the members of this group.
      >
      > You say..."Jim: OK. But if they disrespect you over
      > > there, and you need my help, let me know, and I'll
      > > join up, if they'll have me! LOL."
      >
      > Talk about disrespect. What you people are doing is the same
      tactics
      > Paul Twitchell and his predessor's taught eckists to
      do...infiltrate
      > and try to recruit people into eckankar. You people are trying to
      > infiltrate my group and recruit us into your path. Well, it ain't
      > going to happen. You're about as likely to recruit an ex-eckist
      into
      > Radhasoami as you are trying to freeze hell. Like Kabir said, we're
      > an independent bunch. Why? Because we know what cult tactics are,
      > being taught by one of the ultimate masters, Paul Twitchell. We are
      > too smart to fall for them anymore. We spent too many years in the
      > cult, and very quickly recognize another cult's tactics. Please get
      > out of my group if you can't respect it!>>
      >
      > Now here is their bullshit...
      >
      > MM:
      > I'm going to have to wait to see if my first message will be
      > approved
      > over there. The owner of that group is a member of this group,
      too,
      > and his group's link is in our links section. Postings from new
      > members at his group have to be approved.
      >
      > > --- Michael Martin <kabir_75901@y...> wrote:
      > > > MM:
      > > > My message was approved by the owner of X-Eckankar.
      > > > Now, I'm so busy
      > > > with all these groups. Praise God.
      >
      > --- In Lightfromsoundoasis@yahoogroups.com, Jim Sutherland
      > <isydopen@y...> wrote:
      > > Brother Michael, don't try to convert them all over
      > > there. Bring them over here first, so we can watch you
      > > operate! LOL. How many members do they have listed
      > > over there, so far?
      > > Jim
      >
      >
      > MM:
      > They have 30 members, now. They seem to be an independant-minded
      > bunch, but I'm too new to make any assessment, really. Thanks,
      > Jim.
      > I'll just be careful, mostly lurking for a while, using a lot of
      > love
      > and tact.
      >
      > Michael.
      >
      > > ####### Jim: OK. But if they disrespect you over
      > > there, and you need my help, let me know, and I'll
      > > join up, if they'll have me! LOL.
      > > Jim
    • Karen Hunter
      Amazing! Bravo for your response! Karen incensestiks wrote: I lifted this from his group....they have public archives, so you can see
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 1, 2004
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        Amazing! Bravo for your response!
        Karen

        incensestiks <dustyrose@...> wrote:
        I lifted this from his group....they have public archives, so you
        can see for yourself....red flag warning...they are using cult
        tactics with us....

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lightfromsoundoasis/

        First I'll give the answer I posted in regard to them in this
        matter, then I will post what they've been posting over there all
        day about infiltrating and trying to recruit the ex-eckists into
        their group. Bunch of morons! Here is my answer I just posted over
        there....

        <<I joined this group in good faith. I have not tried to sway any of
        you away from your path, nor have I tried to recruit you. I would
        expect the same respect from the members of this group.

        You say..."Jim: OK. But if they disrespect you over
        > there, and you need my help, let me know, and I'll
        > join up, if they'll have me! LOL."

        Talk about disrespect. What you people are doing is the same tactics
        Paul Twitchell and his predessor's taught eckists to do...infiltrate
        and try to recruit people into eckankar. You people are trying to
        infiltrate my group and recruit us into your path. Well, it ain't
        going to happen. You're about as likely to recruit an ex-eckist into
        Radhasoami as you are trying to freeze hell. Like Kabir said, we're
        an independent bunch. Why? Because we know what cult tactics are,
        being taught by one of the ultimate masters, Paul Twitchell. We are
        too smart to fall for them anymore. We spent too many years in the
        cult, and very quickly recognize another cult's tactics. Please get
        out of my group if you can't respect it!>>

        Now here is their bullshit...

        MM:
        I'm going to have to wait to see if my first message will be
        approved
        over there. The owner of that group is a member of this group, too,
        and his group's link is in our links section. Postings from new
        members at his group have to be approved.

        > --- Michael Martin <kabir_75901@y...> wrote:
        > > MM:
        > > My message was approved by the owner of X-Eckankar.
        > > Now, I'm so busy
        > > with all these groups. Praise God.

        --- In Lightfromsoundoasis@yahoogroups.com, Jim Sutherland
        <isydopen@y...> wrote:
        > Brother Michael, don't try to convert them all over
        > there. Bring them over here first, so we can watch you
        > operate! LOL. How many members do they have listed
        > over there, so far?
        > Jim


        MM:
        They have 30 members, now. They seem to be an independant-minded
        bunch, but I'm too new to make any assessment, really. Thanks,
        Jim.
        I'll just be careful, mostly lurking for a while, using a lot of
        love
        and tact.

        Michael.

        > ####### Jim: OK. But if they disrespect you over
        > there, and you need my help, let me know, and I'll
        > join up, if they'll have me! LOL.
        > Jim






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      • Harvey Schneider
        ... From: incensestiks To: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 10:41 AM Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir s
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 1, 2004
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "incensestiks" <dustyrose@...>
          To: <X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 10:41 AM
          Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir's true intentions for joining & posting in
          this group...


          > --- In X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com, Karen Hunter <karenhu2002@y...>
          > wrote:
          > > Amazing! Bravo for your response!
          > > Karen
          >
          > Just goes to show you it isn't just the eckankar morons out there
          > trying to recruit. But then, the Twitch got a lot of his methods
          > from the Sant Mat morons!

          Would you please unpack your phrase:
          "Sant Mat morons."
          If it makes any difference, I was initiated
          by Paul Twitchell's guru: Kirpal Singh. I
          have not so far been able to verify Kirpal's
          representations of the spiritual truths. But,
          despite all the sceptical views I have come
          across, I remain convinced that Kirpal knew
          something important about man's spiritual
          potential that I am not privy to.
          My questioning of your reference to "Sant
          Mat morons" is not meant as a challenge
          to be followed by a defense of Sant Mat,
          but is raised in the spirit of open minded
          inquiry.
          Harvey

          >
          > > incensestiks <dustyrose@c...> wrote:
          > > I lifted this from his group....they have public archives, so you
          > > can see for yourself....red flag warning...they are using cult
          > > tactics with us....
          > >
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lightfromsoundoasis/
          >
          >
          >
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        • Nancy Lorenz
          ... Makes you want to puke doesn t it? Oh well, forgive them for they know not what they do...? I have to commend all you X-Eckankar people, the more I find
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 1, 2004
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            At 06:54 AM 07/01/2004 +0000, you wrote:
            >I lifted this from his group....they have public archives, so you
            >can see for yourself....red flag warning...they are using cult
            >tactics with us....

            Makes you want to puke doesn't it? Oh well, forgive them for they know not
            what they do...?
            I have to commend all you X-Eckankar people, the more I find out about
            this, (fortunately it was not in my reality to know about this and get
            indoctrinated), the more I see how much courage it took for all of you to
            get out! My hat is off to you!

            And I suppose it's a given that once you opened up the X-Eckankar group to
            the world, for which I am very grateful, you'd get agents of the cults in
            here trying to pull you back, what a waste of time for them! Don't they
            know that once seen it cannot be unseen??? And on the other hand you get
            the nice ones like me who were never in Eck (EEECK!) also after pure truth,
            pure logic, and pure reason from a source without a personal agenda of
            profit, (watch out for false prophets!!!), that does not enslave or bind
            the mind and spirit but frees it! Like Beyond the Ordinary! I toot my
            horn! We (this group) are so way beyond these people who are into the
            "Tyrant & Slave" game that they have no clue... Don't get angry with them,
            leave them to play with their Whips & Chains!

            Love,
            -- Nancy
          • Nancy Lorenz
            ... Gadz, humans will go to war over anything, neighborhood boundaries, country boundaries, Yahoo Group boundaries... ah the limits and fragmentation we place
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 1, 2004
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              >Ya, it's pretty bizarre, isn't it! Well, there was a discussion
              >going on in their group over this, but, I think, after this last
              >post, it's pretty much over for me....

              Gadz, humans will go to war over anything, neighborhood boundaries, country
              boundaries, Yahoo Group boundaries... ah the limits and fragmentation we
              place upon ourselves.

              -- Nancy :-)
            • brupheus
              ... the ... believe ... You thought that did you? A group called X-Eckankookoo and you think we have common beliefs? Sounds like the brewing of a pepsi-coke
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 1, 2004
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                --- In X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Martin"
                <kabir_75901@y...> wrote:
                > MM:
                > Jim was mostly kidding, I'm sure. I know that Eckankar teaches
                the
                > light/sound path, so I was just wondering if any of you still
                believe
                > in that path. I thought we might have some common beliefs.


                You thought that did you? A group called X-Eckankookoo and you think
                we have common beliefs? Sounds like the brewing of a pepsi-coke
                commercial. Mahanta blinked and Sat OldEck appears to offer you the
                TRUE way.

                Perhaps some of my fellow Xers do still hold to some of the
                foundational philosophy of IKONGKAAR. I for one have grown up,
                moved through the very necessary religious phase of my life and am
                now enjoying the next step which is young adulthood. I don't reject
                Harold MLM because I don't like the management though that has been
                a popular trend as of late - I dismiss religion, including my only
                real religion this lifetime as horseshit.

                In fact, I invite any an all to come have a post-cult,
                Xers "horseshit" chant. Someone can read out of the Fairy-Yacht Key
                Goo Clod and then the group can chant "Horseshit!"


                I was as
                > frank, honest, and forthcoming, in my first message that I could
                > possibly be, at least, I thought.
                >
                > Sant Mat doesn't believe in forcibly recruiting anyone. It does
                > believe in discussing the truth with sincere seekers. There is
                > nothing wrong with recruiting, by the way.

                Well I'm sure now that you've made that clear - we Xers are going to
                be much more receptive to your goofy alien-eck promos. I didn't
                know what to think on recruitment but now that you've made it "ok" -
                phew what a relief.



                Walt Whitman, a Param
                > Saint, wrote, "I'll recruit with you." Jesus Christ's recruiting
                is
                > well-known.


                Dude, I knew some Southern Baptists who had become EKnits late in
                life and they were still Baptists with an IK flavoring. The xians
                believe in a tiring and super convoluted scriptural doctrine.
                >
                > If somebody is seeking the truth, and I know the truth, then I see
                > it, as my duty, as a human being, to offer the truth to the
                sincere
                > seeker.

                This is Ford Johnson's line. He even claims he doesn't know "what"
                compels him to give this truth. In fact your "duty" comment reminds
                me of this ECK chick I knew long ago - she had this live-in-his-
                parents-basement-and-do-leather-craft-all-day-because-his-mind-is-
                baked guy call me at 3 am and she said "The ECK made me call you."
                I politely told her the ECK was making me hang up and I did.

                I think if Jade is congruent about you inviting people to come check
                out your group - I'm kewl with that. If you want to spam the group
                though (posting messages that are off message with the theme of the
                group - EX ECK)then I think you have confused duty with delusion.

                What I've read so far makes Sant Mat sound like an older ECK with
                the same troubles - who is the Master, what is a Master, how come
                the paper boy is giving out initiations? blah blah blah

                I don't personally care what someone else worships or believes in.
                I care a great deal about ANYONE trying to sell me something when
                I'm not buying. Just in case this isn't coming in clearly - I am
                not in the market for another religion at this time.

                Brupheus

                This has been practiced by Saints, Mystics, and Mahatmas,
                > since time immemorial.
                >
                > Michael
                >
                > --- In X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com, "incensestiks" <dustyrose@c...>
                > wrote:
                > > I lifted this from his group....they have public archives, so
                you
                > > can see for yourself....red flag warning...they are using cult
                > > tactics with us....
                > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lightfromsoundoasis/
                > >
                > > First I'll give the answer I posted in regard to them in this
                > > matter, then I will post what they've been posting over there
                all
                > > day about infiltrating and trying to recruit the ex-eckists into
                > > their group. Bunch of morons! Here is my answer I just posted
                over
                > > there....
                > >
                > > <<I joined this group in good faith. I have not tried to sway
                any
                > of
                > > you away from your path, nor have I tried to recruit you. I
                would
                > > expect the same respect from the members of this group.
                > >
                > > You say..."Jim: OK. But if they disrespect you over
                > > > there, and you need my help, let me know, and I'll
                > > > join up, if they'll have me! LOL."
                > >
                > > Talk about disrespect. What you people are doing is the same
                > tactics
                > > Paul Twitchell and his predessor's taught eckists to
                > do...infiltrate
                > > and try to recruit people into eckankar. You people are trying
                to
                > > infiltrate my group and recruit us into your path. Well, it
                ain't
                > > going to happen. You're about as likely to recruit an ex-eckist
                > into
                > > Radhasoami as you are trying to freeze hell. Like Kabir said,
                we're
                > > an independent bunch. Why? Because we know what cult tactics
                are,
                > > being taught by one of the ultimate masters, Paul Twitchell. We
                are
                > > too smart to fall for them anymore. We spent too many years in
                the
                > > cult, and very quickly recognize another cult's tactics. Please
                get
                > > out of my group if you can't respect it!>>
                > >
                > > Now here is their bullshit...
                > >
                > > MM:
                > > I'm going to have to wait to see if my first message will be
                > > approved
                > > over there. The owner of that group is a member of this group,
                > too,
                > > and his group's link is in our links section. Postings from new
                > > members at his group have to be approved.
                > >
                > > > --- Michael Martin <kabir_75901@y...> wrote:
                > > > > MM:
                > > > > My message was approved by the owner of X-Eckankar.
                > > > > Now, I'm so busy
                > > > > with all these groups. Praise God.
                > >
                > > --- In Lightfromsoundoasis@yahoogroups.com, Jim Sutherland
                > > <isydopen@y...> wrote:
                > > > Brother Michael, don't try to convert them all over
                > > > there. Bring them over here first, so we can watch you
                > > > operate! LOL. How many members do they have listed
                > > > over there, so far?
                > > > Jim
                > >
                > >
                > > MM:
                > > They have 30 members, now. They seem to be an independant-
                minded
                > > bunch, but I'm too new to make any assessment, really. Thanks,
                > > Jim.
                > > I'll just be careful, mostly lurking for a while, using a lot of
                > > love
                > > and tact.
                > >
                > > Michael.
                > >
                > > > ####### Jim: OK. But if they disrespect you over
                > > > there, and you need my help, let me know, and I'll
                > > > join up, if they'll have me! LOL.
                > > > Jim
              • Nancy Lorenz
                ... I had a taste of it in that 4th Way school, not anything as blatant as what Eck seems to be. Although maybe it was then, was a long time ago. Now I see
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 2, 2004
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                  >My hat is off to you!
                  >
                  >Thank you, Nancy! And count yourself lucky you never got pulled into
                  >the eckankar scheme, but, on the other hand, we all get pulled in
                  >somewhere. Part of the life process, I suspect.

                  I had a taste of it in that 4th Way school, not anything as blatant as what
                  Eck seems to be. Although maybe it was then, was a long time ago. Now I
                  see that all beings on this planet are cross-cultural, or our culture is
                  not who we are, everybody has the same brain although many of them are full
                  of crap! Anyway, our soul, spirit, observer whatever you call it is way
                  above all that BS. Ramtha says "*you* are the way, the path, and the
                  light" and nobody else should we ever put between ourselves and our own
                  greatness. He says we are God, although forgotten, and we need no
                  moderator in between to translate divinity for us. We only need knowledge
                  and he is endeavoring to help us remember who we are. Very cool! I love
                  the liberation this brings, you can love him for what he is attempting to
                  do but you cannot worship him, he leaves nothing to grab onto to worship,
                  how refreshing! Instead you see your potential to become what he is.

                  >I'm glad you opted to stay in the group and sometimes be our voice of
                  >reason within the
                  >insanity.

                  Thank you me too, I post as often as I can, you can imagine how busy we are!

                  >What a hoot today was! Well, I imagine, because we have an X in our
                  >group name, that'll draw every loonie out there who wants to be our
                  >saviour.

                  Well, if anything it will be entertaining.

                  >But, like you said, once we see the truth, it cannot be
                  >unseen. Or, to put it another way, we have seen both sides of the
                  >coin - being in a cult, and now being out of a cult. They are only
                  >seeing one side....the cult.

                  They are all like born again christians. Religions have been the worst
                  most horrendous murderous cults in our history for centuries. Makes these
                  groups like Eck and so many others look like little street corner scam
                  artists, big fish in little tanks, they have no idea how outgunned they are.

                  >But, the question begs, do I really need to be in that group *g*

                  Only if you are a glutton for punishment! :-)

                  >We're not angry at them, but, part of what this group is about is to
                  >expose the cult mind-set.

                  An excellent agenda indeed! That's what our program is about too, and over
                  time I've seen how the cult mindset spreads into so many areas, not just
                  the obvious ones. Dr Gerald Epstein speaks about the 12 major false
                  beliefs. Today Paul Von Ward spoke beautifully of the physiological
                  conditioning in religions and cultures. He is a fabulous historian who
                  says the powers that be don't want us to know our history or we would see
                  what's going on, it was really a great talk. His new book "Gods, Genes &
                  Consciousness" just came out you may be interested in that, there's a link
                  on his page on our site to the bookstore.

                  >Oh, well. Must be time for a breather until the next battle.

                  Calm before the storm, enjoy it while it lasts!

                  Love,
                  -- Nancy

                  >love, jade
                • Nancy Lorenz
                  ... Hi Brupheus, I know this situation isn t funny but your whole post here cracked me up! You are very witty and clever hitting the nail on the head very
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 2, 2004
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                    >In fact, I invite any an all to come have a post-cult,
                    >Xers "horseshit" chant. Someone can read out of the Fairy-Yacht Key
                    >Goo Clod and then the group can chant "Horseshit!"

                    Hi Brupheus, I know this situation isn't funny but your whole post here
                    cracked me up! You are very witty and clever hitting the nail on the head
                    very eloquently!

                    -- Nancy
                  • brupheus
                    ... Key ... here ... the head ... Hi Nancy! It can be funny. We can laugh at our past and accept that we did choose to believe in a religious mythology that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 2, 2004
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                      --- In X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lorenz <nancy@b...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >In fact, I invite any an all to come have a post-cult,
                      > >Xers "horseshit" chant. Someone can read out of the Fairy-Yacht
                      Key
                      > >Goo Clod and then the group can chant "Horseshit!"
                      >
                      > Hi Brupheus, I know this situation isn't funny but your whole post
                      here
                      > cracked me up! You are very witty and clever hitting the nail on
                      the head
                      > very eloquently!
                      >
                      > -- Nancy

                      Hi Nancy!

                      It can be funny. We can laugh at our past and accept that we did
                      choose to believe in a religious mythology that we no longer believe
                      in. We can really laugh at the present prospect of someone who
                      comes on to our little group and sees if he or she can rekindle some
                      of that religious fevor. Perhaps even a few of us still
                      need "something". If so - that is for the individual to decide.
                      I'm an x-eckist and I'm just grateful that unlike the mail-order
                      religion I joined all those decades ago, I can get a quicker turn
                      around time in my present post-religious reflection and exploration.

                      I thank you for the compliment and I hope that others might find my
                      posts more enjoyable than droning and zzzzzzz.

                      I find it ironic that I had to join an x-eck group to discover that
                      not only did paul plagarize but there's a very eck-like religion
                      that predates eckanchoochoo and that they had very similar
                      challenges (religious division)that our alma mater had. And it was
                      the pseudo-master (according to the historic account of Sant Mat)
                      that some present day "paths" stem from.

                      My theory is that each "guru" got addicted to all that attention and
                      either believed some of the bullshit to begin with or began to
                      believe it because it aided the fulfillment through delusions. I
                      think an eckanwhatever might do very well if the leader NEVER
                      believed in the horseshit and was very focused on making it easy to
                      drink the koolaide. The mistake is when the "leader(s)" let "the"
                      philosophy and "their" philosophy mingle a little bit.

                      My father once told me it was "ok" to lie, just never lie to
                      yourself. Unfortunately when you begin to develop an addiction to
                      being worshiped and getting paid to be worshiped - to seem genuine,
                      you must take on at least temporarily the constructs of the religion
                      (getting in character) and the danger of that is - if you do it long
                      enough, you might actually begin to believe you are that character,
                      even a little bit.

                      Isn't it interesting that 2 LEMs down the line from Paul was a self-
                      admited neurotic proof-reader. I think it's fascinating where you
                      can find "god". "God's in the proof-reader room looking over some
                      manuscripts and waiting for his medicines to kick in"

                      Finally - habit is a hard wave of momentum to overcome. If you've
                      been the LEM for over 20 years or in Sant Mat for 40 years - you've
                      built up lots of reasons to have stayed in the religion. Just think
                      about people who ate steak for 40 years and then one day modern
                      health experts demonstrate clearly how "bad" it is for you. It's
                      much easier to dismiss the crazy-communists than to accept that
                      you've been stuffing your body with hormones and whatnot for an
                      entire lifetime.

                      I think keeping your sense of humor is a great comfort when faced
                      with all the crazymaking information and events that fill up the
                      world today.

                      You are welcome to make fun of me to see if I really mean this.

                      Brupheus
                    • Harvey Schneider
                      ... From: brupheus To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:56 PM Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir s true
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 3, 2004
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "brupheus" <neomerkabah@...>
                        To: <X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:56 PM
                        Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir's true intentions for joining & posting in
                        this group...


                        >
                        > I find it ironic that I had to join an x-eck group to discover that
                        > not only did paul plagarize but there's a very eck-like religion
                        > that predates eckanchoochoo and that they had very similar
                        > challenges (religious division)that our alma mater had. And it was
                        > the pseudo-master (according to the historic account of Sant Mat)
                        > that some present day "paths" stem from.

                        Hi Brupheus,

                        Two questions for you:

                        Who is the pseudo-master of Sant Mat?

                        What is your source for "the historical
                        account" of Sant Mat?

                        Controversies about authenticity and
                        succession in Sant Mat can be traced
                        back to its modern founding by Shiv
                        Dayal Singh. I am still looking for a
                        reliable source of information about
                        the movement. Any help you can
                        provide will be appreciated.

                        Harvey
                      • Harvey Schneider
                        ... From: incensestiks To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir s true
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "incensestiks" <dustyrose@...>
                          To: <X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 10:55 AM
                          Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir's true intentions for joining & posting in
                          this group...


                          > --- In X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey Schneider"
                          > <haarvi1@n...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Hi Brupheus,
                          > >
                          > > Two questions for you:
                          > >
                          > > Who is the pseudo-master of Sant Mat?
                          > >
                          > > What is your source for "the historical
                          > > account" of Sant Mat?
                          > >
                          > > Controversies about authenticity and
                          > > succession in Sant Mat can be traced
                          > > back to its modern founding by Shiv
                          > > Dayal Singh. I am still looking for a
                          > > reliable source of information about
                          > > the movement. Any help you can
                          > > provide will be appreciated.
                          > >
                          > > Harvey
                          >
                          > Hi Harvey. I assume you've done lots of research. Am I right in
                          > asking that you are looking for validation of the Sant Mat path?

                          Hi Jade,
                          Thanks for sending a reply to this query.
                          Although you didn't send an answer to
                          my question.
                          Perhaps because I had asked what
                          Brupheus had in mind by his references
                          to "the pseudo master of Sant Mat" and
                          the "historical account" which reveals
                          the truth and exposes the fakes.
                          As I said in my initial post to you, I am
                          an initiate of Kirpal Singh. My guess
                          is that Brupheus is accepting the
                          historical account of Kirpal's rivals in
                          the Beas group and referring to Kirpal
                          as the fake. Just a guess, of course.
                          I don't at all claim to know the truth of
                          the matter, since, as I said in my post,
                          I haven't been able to confirm or deny
                          Kirpal's teachings.
                          The Sant Mat teachings are all but
                          impossible for just about everyone
                          to have reliably certain information
                          about since the standards for truth
                          about the inner worlds are near to
                          impossibly indeterminate.
                          From an outer vantage point the history
                          can be quite intriguing - if you like
                          Rashomonic complexity and uncertainty.
                          Brupheus's characterisations struck me
                          as either narrowly partisan or naively
                          sophomoric, or perhaps a mixture of
                          both.
                          BTW, should I expect an answer to my
                          request for an expansion/explanation of
                          the political view you expressed about
                          9/11?
                          Harvey

                          >
                          > Keep in mind that what I'm saying is from the mouth of a
                          > non-believer in god and relgions. So, the reason I say that is, I
                          > have noticed that almost any path I have encountered runs along the
                          > same basic belief system, with just enough variation to make it
                          > somewhat different from the next guys. Mankind seems to need to know
                          > why we're here: we need a purpose. Yes, I say that it would be nice
                          > to know, but from my own view, I don't think it's going to happen,
                          > because no one has figured it out yet.
                          >
                          > Anyhoo, in an earlier post I said I didn't have the time nor the
                          > inclination to check out this path. I was wrong. I decided that if
                          > I'm going to be running this kind of group, then maybe I should know
                          > about other paths, so am slowly, but surely, checking them out. At
                          > least the ones that tie in with Eckankar: Sant Mat, Scientology, and
                          > the off-shoots that ex-eckists started up. Should make for an
                          > interesting study, but what is life, if not interesting.
                          >
                          > Might keep me out of trouble, too, but I doubt it. Most likely it
                          > will get me into more trouble *g*
                          >
                          > Have a great day!
                          >
                          >
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                        • Harvey Schneider
                          ... From: incensestiks To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:29 PM Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir s true
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 5, 2004
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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "incensestiks" <dustyrose@...>
                            To: <X-Eckankar@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:29 PM
                            Subject: [X-Eckankar] Re: Kabir's true intentions for joining & posting in
                            this group...


                            > > BTW, should I expect an answer to my
                            > > request for an expansion/explanation of
                            > > the political view you expressed about
                            > > 9/11?
                            > > Harvey
                            >
                            > Yeppers! But I'm trying to answer the posts in somewhat the order
                            > they came in, as well as not be too chatty in order to give others a
                            > chance for their say - on anything. Plus, allow everyone to get back
                            > on their feet after a long US holiday weekend. I'm a Canadian, so it
                            > didn't affect me, but we did celebrate our Canada Day holiday on
                            > July the 1st. What did I do for the holiday? That was the day
                            > Michael Martin (Kabir) tried to infiltrate the group, so that was my
                            > holiday *LOL*
                            >
                            > jade

                            Sorry for the bum's rush.
                            I am curious.
                            But there's no hurry.
                            Put me at the end of
                            your list.
                            You're doing fine.
                            Harvey
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