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Invalidation Arguments (marked souls?)

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  • Non ekster
    And the Master will not reply to the question as these things are beyond our limited intellect. lol It seems that those who question do indeed have the greater
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 3, 2007
      And the Master will not reply to the question as these things are
      beyond our limited intellect. lol It seems that those who question do
      indeed have the greater intellect, imo.

      nonekster ; )

      MISSION STATEMENT OF THE MASTER
      AND THE INTENT OF HIS GOD

      In this argument we want to look at the "Mission" that the Masters
      claim to be given by God
      and also look at certain defining characteristics of that God which we
      can infer from statements
      by the Masters.

      We will use two quotes from RS books as the source documents:
      The first is from the book "The Master Answers" by Charan Singh from 1984.
      The second is data attributed to Sawan Singh from the book
      "With the Three Masters - Vol. II" (1967) Pages 68 and 176.

      Q. 310. The first question referred to the Supreme Lord as sending
      us down here. Now sometimes in the Radha Soami literature,
      may be in some of the discussions, I forgot which, we have
      referred to as being prodigal Sons, which indicates that we came
      down here by our own choice, rather than being sent down by the
      Supreme Lord. Will you comment on that?
      A. How could we have a choice, when we were with
      the Lord? Choice comes through the mind, and
      there is no mind there. We have been sent. We
      have been given mind, to be pulled to and function in
      this world. But we had no mind there. The question
      of our choice did not arise there. If the universe had
      to be created, some souls had to be sent, whether they
      liked it or not. It is not advisable to discuss many
      things. For example, you may have heard or you
      may have read but I do not want to give much
      importance to it that some souls were quite willing
      to come, and others were quite reluctant to come.
      Generally, it is said that saints come for those souls
      who were reluctant to come into this world, and that
      is considered to be one-tenth of the number of souls
      sent here. So, only one-tenth will make their way
      310 THE MASTER ANSWERS (1964 Charan Singh)

      back to the Lord and nine-tenths will stay back here
      to carry on the universe. That is why everybody will
      not be attracted towards the Lord. Some souls are
      required for the universe to go on, unless the Lord
      wants to finish this whole play. Otherwise, if all the
      souls were to go back to Him, there would be an end
      to this universe. So the Saints come for those marked
      souls. The one-tenth are the marked souls for which
      the Masters come, to take them back to the Lord.
      They are known as the marked souls. I did not want
      to discuss this question.

      (below dated June, 1945 and attributed to Sawan Singh)
      Last night Huzur said, The real secret is that
      when this creation was created for the first time it was
      most beautiful and fascinating. It was shown to all
      the souls and they were asked whether they would
      like to live in Satlok or go down to this new creation.
      Eight-ninths of the souls said they wanted to go down
      to the lower creation, and only one-ninth of the souls
      said they wanted to stay at the feet of the Lord. At
      DALHOUSIE, SIRSA, PAROR 69


      this the all-merciful Supreme Father asked the souls
      who did not want to go down, to do so, and to enjoy
      the new creation. He added, however, that He would
      call them back later on. So it is this group comprising
      one-ninth of all the souls that is now going back to
      Satlok. Since the creation is infinite, this one-ninth
      part is also infinite, and some of these souls will always
      be in this world to be taken back. The rest of the
      eight parts will always remain here as a part of this
      creation.

      June, 1945

      Someone asked why this universe was created. Huzur
      replied, This can be understood only after reaching
      Satiok, but the perfect Saints possess this secret, which
      is not to be found in any books, that this entire universe
      was shown to all the souls on the day it was created.
      Eight-ninths of the souls said that they would like to
      live forever in the material. world; but the remaining
      one-ninth said that they did not want anything else
      except God. At this the Supreme Lord said, "All of
      you go down to the material world. Those who have
      asked for me only, I shall come to take them back in
      the form of perfect Saints." I said that it was really
      surprising that these souls liked this material world
      in exchange for the bliss of Satlok. Huzur replied,
      "These souls were then not in Satlok, but were in a
      passive or dormant state. They liked this material
      world because they had not seen any other universe."

      The Masters claim that their "mission" is to find "marked souls" and
      bring them back to God.
      It is further claimed that each Master has been assigned a specific
      number of these "marked souls"
      to locate and return. This is their stated mission throughout the
      many RS books.

      Many RS books contain glossaries, but the term "marked soul" is not
      defined in any of them.

      So, just what is a "marked soul". From the above quotes we can see
      that a "marked soul"
      is a soul which came from Sach Khand. It is a statement of fact or
      citizenship - marked souls
      are citizens of Sach Khand and so have the right to return there. You
      cannot earn the right
      to be a "marked soul". You either are or are not. Either way you
      cannot change it. The
      concept of karmas or good or bad works has nothing at all to do with
      being a marked soul.
      The Masters then state the number of marked souls at about 10% of all
      souls.

      So, what if you are not a "marked soul". Well, if you are a member of
      the 90% of non-marked
      souls, according to the Masters, there is no hope for you regardless
      of how good you are.
      In the model for the Universe as given in the above quotes, non-marked
      souls never reach
      God. When they are not being "used" to animate life forms in the
      creation, they are "stored"
      in a "dormant state" until needed.

      I do not believe that I can find, in the language that we use here to
      communicate with one another,
      the words to adequately express the gravity of what is being stated in
      the above quotes.
      Please read them carefully. We begin at a point where the material
      creation had not yet been
      conceived. Souls lived in the Spiritual realms. Now it is time to
      create the lower or material
      worlds. It is desired that these worlds be populated by animate
      creatures which necessitates
      that these creatures have souls. The souls used for this purpose are
      not souls from the spiritual
      planes. They are souls from "a dormant state" - souls who "had never
      been in Sat Lock".
      These souls are destined to "always remain here as part of this
      creation". They will have
      lifetime after lifetime - hopes and dreams - good and bad times, but
      the most they can hope
      for (although they do not know this) is to be put back into "a dormant
      state". They will
      never reach God - they will never see God. Saints will not help them.
      Only the special
      10% who came from an active existence in the Spiritual planes have the
      right (divine right ?)
      to return to those high planes. They have the passport - "the mark"
      by definition or
      divine right or whatever. It is irrelevant what they have done or do
      now or will do in the
      future. None of this has any effect on the fact that they are "marked
      souls" and therefore
      have the right to access the Spiritual worlds. Similarly, those 90%
      who are "not marked"
      have no right and no hope of gaining any right regardless of anything
      they may do.

      Now, this is a simply horrible model for the Universe and for God's
      intentions. If true, we might
      as well all hang it up because we are dealing with a God which is
      vastly different from what
      is generally believed. This is a model for a totally non evolving
      Universe - a stagnant place
      where souls spin around but accomplish nothing ruled by a God who
      creates souls for "utility"
      and not out of Love that they might develop and grow and achieve
      fulfillment.

      It also suggests an elitist or "master race" type attitude on the part
      of the Masters. The Masters
      and their students, of course, are members of the "marked soul class"
      and the "masses" or
      the general population is the "non-marked soul class" which is doomed
      and does not count.
      To accept this RS model, then, is to worship a God who does NOT have
      "unconditional love"
      but who instead has very conditional love for specific souls and no
      regard for others.

      The most likely possibility here is that the god of RS is not the
      ultimate God but rather one
      of the many "gods" which are worshipped by the various sects in India.

      In fairness, I wrote to Gurinder Singh and asked him to explain or
      clarify the quotes used
      above. As usual, he refused to give any meaningful answer and simply
      stated that "our
      limited minds cannot understand these things". He also added some
      advice saying, "I
      would advise you not to activate the mind unnecessarily". It is good
      advice, of course.
      If you are a mindless zombie you will have no trouble accepting anything.
      However, my "limited mind" has no trouble seeing what is being said in
      the above quotes-
      and I do not agree with it and I do not feel that the "god" being
      described here is the
      ultimate and "for real" god.


      GO TO MAIN PAGE
    • Non ekster
      http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/mission.htm ... 1984. ... anything.
      Message 2 of 2 , Oct 3, 2007
        http://www.geocities.com/rssbdata/mission.htm

        --- In X-Eckankar_The-Chains-of-Eck@yahoogroups.com, "Non ekster"
        <eckchains@...> wrote:
        >
        > And the Master will not reply to the question as these things are
        > beyond our limited intellect. lol It seems that those who question do
        > indeed have the greater intellect, imo.
        >
        > nonekster ; )
        >
        > MISSION STATEMENT OF THE MASTER
        > AND THE INTENT OF HIS GOD
        >
        > In this argument we want to look at the "Mission" that the Masters
        > claim to be given by God
        > and also look at certain defining characteristics of that God which we
        > can infer from statements
        > by the Masters.
        >
        > We will use two quotes from RS books as the source documents:
        > The first is from the book "The Master Answers" by Charan Singh from
        1984.
        > The second is data attributed to Sawan Singh from the book
        > "With the Three Masters - Vol. II" (1967) Pages 68 and 176.
        >
        > Q. 310. The first question referred to the Supreme Lord as sending
        > us down here. Now sometimes in the Radha Soami literature,
        > may be in some of the discussions, I forgot which, we have
        > referred to as being prodigal Sons, which indicates that we came
        > down here by our own choice, rather than being sent down by the
        > Supreme Lord. Will you comment on that?
        > A. How could we have a choice, when we were with
        > the Lord? Choice comes through the mind, and
        > there is no mind there. We have been sent. We
        > have been given mind, to be pulled to and function in
        > this world. But we had no mind there. The question
        > of our choice did not arise there. If the universe had
        > to be created, some souls had to be sent, whether they
        > liked it or not. It is not advisable to discuss many
        > things. For example, you may have heard or you
        > may have read but I do not want to give much
        > importance to it that some souls were quite willing
        > to come, and others were quite reluctant to come.
        > Generally, it is said that saints come for those souls
        > who were reluctant to come into this world, and that
        > is considered to be one-tenth of the number of souls
        > sent here. So, only one-tenth will make their way
        > 310 THE MASTER ANSWERS (1964 Charan Singh)
        >
        > back to the Lord and nine-tenths will stay back here
        > to carry on the universe. That is why everybody will
        > not be attracted towards the Lord. Some souls are
        > required for the universe to go on, unless the Lord
        > wants to finish this whole play. Otherwise, if all the
        > souls were to go back to Him, there would be an end
        > to this universe. So the Saints come for those marked
        > souls. The one-tenth are the marked souls for which
        > the Masters come, to take them back to the Lord.
        > They are known as the marked souls. I did not want
        > to discuss this question.
        >
        > (below dated June, 1945 and attributed to Sawan Singh)
        > Last night Huzur said, The real secret is that
        > when this creation was created for the first time it was
        > most beautiful and fascinating. It was shown to all
        > the souls and they were asked whether they would
        > like to live in Satlok or go down to this new creation.
        > Eight-ninths of the souls said they wanted to go down
        > to the lower creation, and only one-ninth of the souls
        > said they wanted to stay at the feet of the Lord. At
        > DALHOUSIE, SIRSA, PAROR 69
        >
        >
        > this the all-merciful Supreme Father asked the souls
        > who did not want to go down, to do so, and to enjoy
        > the new creation. He added, however, that He would
        > call them back later on. So it is this group comprising
        > one-ninth of all the souls that is now going back to
        > Satlok. Since the creation is infinite, this one-ninth
        > part is also infinite, and some of these souls will always
        > be in this world to be taken back. The rest of the
        > eight parts will always remain here as a part of this
        > creation.
        >
        > June, 1945
        >
        > Someone asked why this universe was created. Huzur
        > replied, This can be understood only after reaching
        > Satiok, but the perfect Saints possess this secret, which
        > is not to be found in any books, that this entire universe
        > was shown to all the souls on the day it was created.
        > Eight-ninths of the souls said that they would like to
        > live forever in the material. world; but the remaining
        > one-ninth said that they did not want anything else
        > except God. At this the Supreme Lord said, "All of
        > you go down to the material world. Those who have
        > asked for me only, I shall come to take them back in
        > the form of perfect Saints." I said that it was really
        > surprising that these souls liked this material world
        > in exchange for the bliss of Satlok. Huzur replied,
        > "These souls were then not in Satlok, but were in a
        > passive or dormant state. They liked this material
        > world because they had not seen any other universe."
        >
        > The Masters claim that their "mission" is to find "marked souls" and
        > bring them back to God.
        > It is further claimed that each Master has been assigned a specific
        > number of these "marked souls"
        > to locate and return. This is their stated mission throughout the
        > many RS books.
        >
        > Many RS books contain glossaries, but the term "marked soul" is not
        > defined in any of them.
        >
        > So, just what is a "marked soul". From the above quotes we can see
        > that a "marked soul"
        > is a soul which came from Sach Khand. It is a statement of fact or
        > citizenship - marked souls
        > are citizens of Sach Khand and so have the right to return there. You
        > cannot earn the right
        > to be a "marked soul". You either are or are not. Either way you
        > cannot change it. The
        > concept of karmas or good or bad works has nothing at all to do with
        > being a marked soul.
        > The Masters then state the number of marked souls at about 10% of all
        > souls.
        >
        > So, what if you are not a "marked soul". Well, if you are a member of
        > the 90% of non-marked
        > souls, according to the Masters, there is no hope for you regardless
        > of how good you are.
        > In the model for the Universe as given in the above quotes, non-marked
        > souls never reach
        > God. When they are not being "used" to animate life forms in the
        > creation, they are "stored"
        > in a "dormant state" until needed.
        >
        > I do not believe that I can find, in the language that we use here to
        > communicate with one another,
        > the words to adequately express the gravity of what is being stated in
        > the above quotes.
        > Please read them carefully. We begin at a point where the material
        > creation had not yet been
        > conceived. Souls lived in the Spiritual realms. Now it is time to
        > create the lower or material
        > worlds. It is desired that these worlds be populated by animate
        > creatures which necessitates
        > that these creatures have souls. The souls used for this purpose are
        > not souls from the spiritual
        > planes. They are souls from "a dormant state" - souls who "had never
        > been in Sat Lock".
        > These souls are destined to "always remain here as part of this
        > creation". They will have
        > lifetime after lifetime - hopes and dreams - good and bad times, but
        > the most they can hope
        > for (although they do not know this) is to be put back into "a dormant
        > state". They will
        > never reach God - they will never see God. Saints will not help them.
        > Only the special
        > 10% who came from an active existence in the Spiritual planes have the
        > right (divine right ?)
        > to return to those high planes. They have the passport - "the mark"
        > by definition or
        > divine right or whatever. It is irrelevant what they have done or do
        > now or will do in the
        > future. None of this has any effect on the fact that they are "marked
        > souls" and therefore
        > have the right to access the Spiritual worlds. Similarly, those 90%
        > who are "not marked"
        > have no right and no hope of gaining any right regardless of anything
        > they may do.
        >
        > Now, this is a simply horrible model for the Universe and for God's
        > intentions. If true, we might
        > as well all hang it up because we are dealing with a God which is
        > vastly different from what
        > is generally believed. This is a model for a totally non evolving
        > Universe - a stagnant place
        > where souls spin around but accomplish nothing ruled by a God who
        > creates souls for "utility"
        > and not out of Love that they might develop and grow and achieve
        > fulfillment.
        >
        > It also suggests an elitist or "master race" type attitude on the part
        > of the Masters. The Masters
        > and their students, of course, are members of the "marked soul class"
        > and the "masses" or
        > the general population is the "non-marked soul class" which is doomed
        > and does not count.
        > To accept this RS model, then, is to worship a God who does NOT have
        > "unconditional love"
        > but who instead has very conditional love for specific souls and no
        > regard for others.
        >
        > The most likely possibility here is that the god of RS is not the
        > ultimate God but rather one
        > of the many "gods" which are worshipped by the various sects in India.
        >
        > In fairness, I wrote to Gurinder Singh and asked him to explain or
        > clarify the quotes used
        > above. As usual, he refused to give any meaningful answer and simply
        > stated that "our
        > limited minds cannot understand these things". He also added some
        > advice saying, "I
        > would advise you not to activate the mind unnecessarily". It is good
        > advice, of course.
        > If you are a mindless zombie you will have no trouble accepting
        anything.
        > However, my "limited mind" has no trouble seeing what is being said in
        > the above quotes-
        > and I do not agree with it and I do not feel that the "god" being
        > described here is the
        > ultimate and "for real" god.
        >
        >
        > GO TO MAIN PAGE
        >
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