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RE: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi

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  • Moid Alam
    Agreed with Osman and Tarek I am quiet perplexed by the idea of turning a country into a catholic marriage , where there is no way out, no matter what kind
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 23, 2012
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      Agreed with Osman and Tarek

      I am quiet  perplexed by the idea of turning a country into a "catholic marriage", where there is no way out, no matter what kind of emotional/physical abuse parties have to suffer, for any time period.

      A country is a union of constituent groups of ppl and lands with their willing participation. When either the union or the constituent decides to part way, lets respect that. At that time of dissolution of marriage, lets call it a no-fault divorce, and move on. Trying to find out other man or other woman, or accusation of infidelity will just be counter productive. Balochistan and Pakistan had 60+ years to make it right. If they could not do it right in 6 decades, surely, they will never be able to , in 6 more decades.

      At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat




      To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
      From: osman_sher@...
      Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 05:38:35 -0800
      Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi



      Pakistan is the product of a false concept of nationhood. It is the product of the notorious Two-nation Theory, the universally acclaimed trap of the British to divide and rule. Its falsehood is apparent by Pakistani nation dividing itself in the various brands of pseudo-nationalism, mistreating each other, and then happy to get rid of the one that likes to go away. They do not hesitate to say that Baluchis are a nation by themselves, more akin to Iranians, and the people of PK more to Afghanistan, in the same way as the Bengalis had nothing common with West Pakistan. In fact, all the regions of the Subcontinent bordering other countries (Baluchistan, PK, Kashmir, Assam, Bangladesh, Tamil Nadu) were and are Indians at large. “India beyond all doubt possesses a deep underlying fundamental unity, far more profound than that produced either by geographical isolation or by political suzerainty. That unity transcends the innumerable diversities of blood, colour, language, dress, manners and sect.” (See The Oxford History of India, Introduction, Fourth Edition, Vincent A. Smith, edited by Percival Spear)

       

      A nation is made of many components: religion, social values, culture, customs, traditions, language, history, geography, degree of social assimilation, and simply living together for a very long period.

       

      In Pakistan how long we would go on mistreating each other and fragmenting ourselves?


      Osman Sher


      --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...> wrote:

      From: Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...>
      Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
      To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
      Received: Thursday, February 23, 2012, 2:12 AM

       
      Funny how Pakistan's Punjabis see nothing wrong in occupying Balochistan as "settlers", but are adamant in their rejection of say Jewish settlers in the West Bank.

      I reject the Jewish settlers and the Punjabi settlers who came on the backs of the Pakistan Army to loot Balochistan of its resources.

      Disgraceful to see how even supposed writers and intellectuals got nothing out of Dr. Tahir Qazi's fascinating interview, but held on to their addiction of false victimhood.

      Ma'am, I have lived with Khair Bux Marri; I have followed him as one of the great political and intellectual  minds of the Subcontinent. Today you denigrate him and his family, yesterday your parents and other Punjabis danced in joy when Nauroze Khan's family was hanged to death or when Sherroo Marri was demonized as the enemy.

      Very soon Pakistan's Punjab will be left as a landlocked enclave, home to its one million army mimiv=cing an Arab and UP identity as it will become a laughing stock to those children whose parents died in Bangladesh, Balochistan, KP and Sind to stand up for their rights as a free people, not subservient to the fake machismo of surrendering generals.

      When we fought for the rights of the Bangladesh people, we faced similar rants from the Punjabi and Urdu-speaking elites who dreamt of themselves as the rightful owners of a defunct caliphate. They were shamed into humiliation then and they will face humiliation again, but they will only learn to respect others when they respect their own mother tongue and culture they have abandoned.

      The Baloch did not descend on Old Delhi or Lahore to settle there, then why do you wish to take their land and claim it as your own? Live and let live. They don't wish to live with you; why do you impose yourself on them?

      Tarek

      On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Farzana Butt <FarzanaGButt@...> wrote:
       

      If it is "fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out of the woods", it is equally fascinating to see bleeding-heart liberals losing their sense of rationality.
      Hope the following write-up would prove to be a food for thought.
      best,
      FGB
       
      Balochistan killings no one talks about
       
      Saleem Ahmed, Salt Lake City
       
      Lately there has been so much in the news about bullet-ridden bodies of people found in ‘Balochistan’ and the right of the Baloch people.  There was a US Congressional hearing on Balochistan; subsequent to that hearing a bill has been tabled in the Congress asking the US government to support the right of self-determination of the Baloch. There appears to be an international wave of sympathy for the ‘Baloch nationalists fighting for independence.’ It is about time someone would write down the facts so that the people would know what is going on in Pakistan’s ‘Balochistan.’  And I write ‘Balochistan’ in quotation marks because calling Pakistan’s largest province ‘Balochistan’ (land of the Baloch) is where most misunderstanding about the ‘Balochistan’ issue stems from.  A more appropriate name for the largest province of Pakistan would be SWFP (South West Frontier Province)—and that is what I would call it in this article, recognizing the fact that the Baloch people (hardly 45% of SWFP, if we stretch and count African-descent people of Makran as Baloch) are only one of the several ethnic groups living there.
       
      Pakistan is a mismanaged third-world country.  Mismanaged third-world countries are intrinsically unjust.  Pakistan has been an equally bad experience for all ethnicities living in that country: Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Pashtun, Hazara, Baloch, Muhajir, and others.  If Baloch are unhappy with the government of Pakistan they should first find out who is happy with the government.
       
      Let’s look at the SWFP killings.  Did the world pay any attention to the killings of Punjabi and Muhajir settlers of SWFP throughout 2008, 2009, and 2010?  Is it just a coincidence that the killings of ‘settlers’ have greatly reduced after ‘Baloch nationalists’ have started disappearing and their dead bodies being found in wilderness days later.  No, it is not.  These so-called nationalists were/are the people behind the ethnic cleansing operation.  That old man on his death bed, Khair Bakhsh Marri, studied in Punjab, lived with Punjabis, but later in his life started spewing venom against the Punjabis. That hateful dialog has been picked up by his son, Harbyar Marri, and other so-called ‘Baloch nationalists’ (including the fugitive Brahmdagh Bugti). These people are a disgrace to the beautiful word Sarmachar.  These murderers have more blood on their hands than the worst serial killer.  These so-called ‘Sarmachars’ are responsible for the cold-blooded murder of around 30 teachers—all of them Punjabi or Muhajir-- in various colleges and universities of Balochistan.   What was the crime of those teachers?  Their ethnicity did not fit well in the pipe dream of those people who wish to see Baloch hegemony in areas south of Quetta.  Let me write down a few examples of their ethnic cleansing campaign: On March 7, 2008, Principal Divisional Public College Khuzdar Ashiq Hussain was gunned down; on April 22, 2008, Professor Dr. Safdar Kiyani acting pro-vice chancellor of Balochistan University  was killed outside his residence; on March 30, 2009, Principal Degree College Surab Muhammad Alam Zehri was shot dead; on June 14, 2009, in Kalat, masked motorcyclists shot dead a school teacher Mr. Anwar Baig; on June 17, 2009, BRC Khuzdar Vice Principal Khalid Mehmood Butt was killed; on June 22, 2009, Commerce College principal Amanat Ali Baig was shot dead;  on July 23, 2009 Haji Mohammad Mohsin, the principal of a government high school in Quetta was murdered; on July 24, 2009 Prof Mohammad Sarwar of the Government Degree College, Quetta, was killed by armed men riding a motorcycle; on November 5, 2009, Chairman of Library Science Balochistan University, Professor Khursheed Ansari was killed; on April 27, 2010 Professor Nazima Talib was murdered outside Balochistan University; and the list goes on.
       
      In a just society, Mr. ABC, a local BSO Leader would be arrested for the murder of Professor XYZ, and would be put on trial.  But Pakistan, like many developing countries, is not a just society—it is barely a notch above the animal world.  Out in the wild coyote kills rabbit, lion kills coyote.  Big deal!  Mr. BSO leader killed his Punjabi teacher for no reason other than the ethnicity of his teacher; someone picked up Mr. BSO leader and killed him extra judicially.  Justice done, third-world style.
       
      I am glad Brahmdagh Bugti has reached the right place, Geneva (close to Hague, where the International Criminal Court is).  Hope Brahamdagh Bugti and Harbiyar Marri would be brought to justice for orchestrating ethnic cleansing in Balochistan.  These men, along with the old man Khair Bakhsh Marri, are responsible for inciting hatred against Punjabis and Muhajirs settled in Balochistan.  Just listen to their speeches and you would be convinced these people fit the very definition of demagogues whose inflammatory, hateful speech is resulting in violence against specific communities.  It is anyone’s guess why the Government of Pakistan is not presenting the facts to the international community and get Balochistan Republican Army and other thugs classified as terrorist groups actively involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
       
      Now look at it a different way. God forbid imagine a new land-locked country (bounded by Pashtun areas north of Quetta, Qalat in the west, Makran in the south, and Sindh in the east) called Balochistan coming into existence.  How secure shall other ethnic groups feel, living in Balochistan (the land of the Baloch)—the name of the proposed state suggests a second-class citizenry level for all non-Baloch. Also, Can you imagine a concurrent wave of discrimination rising against the Baloch settlers in various parts of South Asia?  Remember that half of southern Punjab has Baloch blood and may have Baloch names (for example, Liaqat Baloch, Jamat e Islami’s General Secretary); half of western Sindh has Baloch blood and names (for example, Zardari, Pakistan’s current president).  There are Baloch settlers as far east as Utter Pradesh and Gujarat, India.  And the biggest Baloch city (with the highest population of people calling themselves ‘Baloch’) is Karachi, outside ‘Balochistan.’ After the perceived independence of Balochistan (land for the Baloch) should these settled Baloch communities face discrimination and be told by others to go back to where they belong?  A nightmarish prospect, indeed!
       
      The democratic government of Pakistan must act quickly to solve the ‘Balochistan issue.’  The first step in resolving the Balochistan issue would be to divide Balochistan into four provinces: Zhob (Pashtun area north of Quetta), Qalat (historically a separate region), Makran (100 mile wide belt along the coast), and Balochistan (the area in the middle). Through this division the Baloch problem would be reduced to its actual size: the current unrest is not in the Pashtun areas, it is limited to the area between Khuzdar and Quetta.  The proposed division is logical: why should the Pashtun areas be called Balochistan (land of Baloch), or the Makran belt be called Balochistan?  After dividing Balochistan into these new provinces attention should be paid to calm the people in real Balochistan (the proposed new province).  Besides dividing Balochistan for better administration, there is a need to make similar divisions in all other provinces.
       
      -------
      Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi

      It is fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out if the woods to justify the denial of the right of self determination for the Baloch nation by determine that the Baloch are still in a primitive stage of tribalism.

      The Baloch have a distinct language, culture, cuisine, music, customs and history. Isn't it disgusting that the an entire distinct nation is considered unworthy of nationhood, yet the Arabs can have not one, but 22 countries and this fact is lost on supposed avid Marxists.

      The UAE and Oman as well as Qatar and Kuwait and Lebanon and Jordan can be separate countries, but not Balochistan or Kurdistan.

      None of my Baloch comrades are sirdars and even Sardar Ataullah or Nawab Khair Bux are far more enlightened than their morose feudal-minded critics from the villages of UP.

      Tarek

      -
      Sent from my iPhone

      On 2012-02-21, at 10:25 AM, 7243 <abbas7243@...> wrote:

      Dr. Ehtisham wrote:

      "A very pertinent question was raised by your interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of Baluchistan."

      How does this question becomes pertinent only to independence of Baluchistan.

      Did we or do we ever question who primarily would benefit or benefited from the secession of 5 Muslim majority states from Hindu majority India - ordinary Mohammed and Khadijha?

      The interviewer in conclusion comments; only the lords have benefited from the secession of Bengal from Pakistan not the ordinary Bengali(may not be her exact words). Well, who is benefiting or benefited in what is left of Pakistan - ordinary Khuda Bux and Allah Wasaee?

      For the sixty four years we did nothing and showed any concern for our ordinary Baluch brethren when our ruling establishment(mercenary army, civil service and feudal lords)not just bribed the compliant Baluch sardars, but also aided and abetted in perpetuation of their medieval sardari system.

      Now this sudden concern for the ordinary Baluch sounds hollow.

      Abbas

      --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Syed Ehtisham <syedmae@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Tahir,
      > Very good and comprehensive interview which I would recommend every one interested in Pakistan and Baluchistan should watch in its entirety.
      > I have a few reservations. Nation state is a very late development in human history. People used to owe allegiance to tribal chiefs, feudal landowners and kings. Then about 35% of Baluchis live in Iran. And when I lived in Quetta in the 1950s, about 40% of the population of the province was Pakhtoon.
      > Baluchis are still in the tribal stage, so it is difficult to apply the definition of a nation to them.
      > A very pertinent question was raised by your interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of Baluchistan.
      > In my opinion Pakistan needs a working class struggle. Sindhi, Baluchi, Punjabi and Pashtun nationalism is a distraction from attention to the working class.

      > E
      >
      > Dr. S. Akhtar Ehtisham
      > (607) 776-3336
      > P.O. Box 469,
      > Bath NY 14810
      > USA
      > Blog syedehtisham.blogspot.com
      > All religions try to take over the establishment and if they fail, they collaborate with it, be it feudal or capitalist.
      >
      > --- On Sun, 2/19/12, Tahir Qazi <qazimd@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Tahir Qazi <qazimd@...>
      > Subject: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
      > To: "Syed Ehtisham" <syedmae@...>
      > Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012, 12:50 PM
      >
      >
      > Dear Dr. Sahib:
      > Its been a long time. Hope you are well ... Below is the link of my talk on Rawal TV with the anchor Rubina Faisal on Balochistan:
      >
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmgePhlSUs
      > Any comments or feedback is welcome.
      > Regards,
      >
      > Tahir
      >
      > -- Tahir M. Qazi, MD
      > Clinical Neurophysiology
      >
      > Neuromuscular Diseases
      > Physical Medicine & Rehab.
      >








      --
      http://www.TarekFatah.com


    • aziz_yadayada
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 23, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        <<At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat>> very well put, human rights is critical to peaceful co-existence...agree

        Boundaries have always been artificial in nature can't imagine going back to tribalism and patriarchal self proclaimed autocratic sovereignty of tribal leaders in Sudan, take the example of a new nation of Southern Sudan creating a new artificial boundary for peaceful coexistence north and Christian south division has not brought peace to the new nation of Southern Sudan with further demand for power and tribal separation resulting in tribal conflict and fighting.

        There are 500 Bantu tribes in Sudan and people of Darfur being one of them some have compared Darfur with Balochistan. 500 nations within Sudan might be desirable where people can't come together for common good even if it means return to tribalism or tribal democracy some would argue.

        The other solution is what Tanzania did with its 200 tribes was to strip tribal leaders of its political power at regional level introducing direct democracy political representation for each of the 200 tribes in a centralized government creating one Tanzanite national identity, co equal rights, I suppose the same solution may not be practical in all circumstances where an Ethnic groups are divided between three countries like the Kurds in Iran, Iraq and Syria or Baloch in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, The debate will always remain what constitutes historically defined boundary for such a new nation and how to deal with such an issue.

        Lack of respect for fundamental human rights, insurgency, corruption and political terrorism in terms of ethnic loyalties, Sindhi, Punjabi etc and Pakistan's failure to mitigate such issues does not help to create a national unity Government, Osman Saheb is right in that Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed.

        Aziz

        --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Moid Alam <moidalam@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Agreed with Osman and Tarek
        > I am quiet perplexed by the idea of turning a country into a "catholic marriage", where there is no way out, no matter what kind of emotional/physical abuse parties have to suffer, for any time period.
        > A country is a union of constituent groups of ppl and lands with their willing participation. When either the union or the constituent decides to part way, lets respect that. At that time of dissolution of marriage, lets call it a no-fault divorce, and move on. Trying to find out other man or other woman, or accusation of infidelity will just be counter productive. Balochistan and Pakistan had 60+ years to make it right. If they could not do it right in 6 decades, surely, they will never be able to , in 6 more decades.
        > At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat
        >
        >
        > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
        > From: osman_sher@...
        > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 05:38:35 -0800
        > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
        >
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        > Pakistan
        > is the product of a false concept of nationhood. It is the product of the
        > notorious Two-nation Theory, the universally acclaimed trap of the British to
        > divide and rule. Its falsehood is apparent by Pakistani nation dividing itself
        > in the various brands of pseudo-nationalism, mistreating each other, and then
        > happy to get rid of the one that likes to go away. They do not hesitate to say
        > that Baluchis are a nation by themselves, more akin to Iranians, and the people
        > of PK more to Afghanistan,
        > in the same way as the Bengalis had nothing common with West
        > Pakistan. In fact, all the regions of the Subcontinent bordering
        > other countries (Baluchistan, PK, Kashmir,
        > Assam, Bangladesh,
        > Tamil Nadu) were and are Indians at large. "India
        > beyond all doubt possesses a deep underlying fundamental unity, far more
        > profound than that produced either by geographical isolation or by political
        > suzerainty. That unity transcends the innumerable diversities of blood, colour,
        > language, dress, manners and sect." (See
        > The Oxford History of India, Introduction, Fourth Edition, Vincent A.
        > Smith, edited by Percival Spear)
        >
        >
        >
        > A nation is made of many components: religion, social values, culture, customs, traditions, language, history, geography,
        > degree of social assimilation, and simply living together for a very long
        > period.
        >
        >
        >
        > In Pakistan
        > how long we would go on mistreating each other and fragmenting ourselves?
        > Osman Sher
        > --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...>
        > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
        > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
        > Received: Thursday, February 23, 2012, 2:12 AM
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        > Funny how Pakistan's Punjabis see nothing wrong in occupying Balochistan as "settlers", but are adamant in their rejection of say Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
        > I reject the Jewish settlers and the Punjabi settlers who came on the backs of the Pakistan Army to loot Balochistan of its resources.
        >
        >
        > Disgraceful to see how even supposed writers and intellectuals got nothing out of Dr. Tahir Qazi's fascinating interview, but held on to their addiction of false victimhood.
        >
        >
        > Ma'am, I have lived with Khair Bux Marri; I have followed him as one of the great political and intellectual minds of the Subcontinent. Today you denigrate him and his family, yesterday your parents and other Punjabis danced in joy when Nauroze Khan's family was hanged to death or when Sherroo Marri was demonized as the enemy.
        >
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        > Very soon Pakistan's Punjab will be left as a landlocked enclave, home to its one million army mimiv=cing an Arab and UP identity as it will become a laughing stock to those children whose parents died in Bangladesh, Balochistan, KP and Sind to stand up for their rights as a free people, not subservient to the fake machismo of surrendering generals.
        >
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        > When we fought for the rights of the Bangladesh people, we faced similar rants from the Punjabi and Urdu-speaking elites who dreamt of themselves as the rightful owners of a defunct caliphate. They were shamed into humiliation then and they will face humiliation again, but they will only learn to respect others when they respect their own mother tongue and culture they have abandoned.
        >
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        > The Baloch did not descend on Old Delhi or Lahore to settle there, then why do you wish to take their land and claim it as your own? Live and let live. They don't wish to live with you; why do you impose yourself on them?
        >
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        > Tarek
        >
        > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Farzana Butt <FarzanaGButt@...> wrote:
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        > If it is "fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out of the woods", it is equally fascinating to see bleeding-heart liberals losing their sense of rationality.
        > Hope the following write-up would prove to be a food for thought.best,FGB
        >
        > Balochistan killings no one talks about
        >
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        > Saleem Ahmed, Salt Lake City
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        > Lately there has been so much in the news about bullet-ridden bodies of people found in `Balochistan' and the right of the Baloch people. There was a US Congressional hearing on Balochistan; subsequent to that hearing a bill has been tabled in the Congress asking the US government to support the right of self-determination of the Baloch. There appears to be an international wave of sympathy for the `Baloch nationalists fighting for independence.' It is about time someone would write down the facts so that the people would know what is going on in Pakistan's `Balochistan.' And I write `Balochistan' in quotation marks because calling Pakistan's largest province `Balochistan' (land of the Baloch) is where most misunderstanding about the `Balochistan' issue stems
        > from. A more appropriate name for the largest province of Pakistan would be SWFP (South West Frontier Province)—and that is what I would call it in this article, recognizing the fact that the Baloch people (hardly 45% of SWFP, if we stretch and count African-descent people of Makran as Baloch) are only one of the several ethnic groups living there.
        >
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        > Pakistan is a mismanaged third-world country. Mismanaged third-world countries are intrinsically unjust. Pakistan has been an equally bad experience for all ethnicities living in that country: Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Pashtun, Hazara, Baloch, Muhajir, and others. If Baloch are unhappy with the government of Pakistan they should first find out who is happy with the government.
        >
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        > Let's look at the SWFP killings. Did the world pay any attention to the killings of Punjabi and Muhajir settlers of SWFP throughout 2008, 2009, and 2010? Is it just a coincidence that the killings of `settlers' have greatly reduced after `Baloch nationalists' have started disappearing and their dead bodies being found in wilderness days later. No, it is not. These so-called nationalists were/are the people behind the ethnic cleansing operation. That old man on his death bed, Khair Bakhsh Marri, studied in Punjab, lived with Punjabis, but later in his life started spewing venom against the Punjabis. That hateful dialog has been picked up by his son, Harbyar Marri, and other so-called `Baloch
        > nationalists' (including the fugitive Brahmdagh Bugti). These people are a disgrace to the beautiful word Sarmachar. These murderers have more blood on their hands than the worst serial killer. These so-called `Sarmachars' are responsible for the cold-blooded murder of around 30 teachers—all of them Punjabi or Muhajir-- in various colleges and universities of Balochistan. What was the crime of those teachers? Their ethnicity did not fit well in the pipe dream of those people who wish to see Baloch hegemony in areas south of Quetta. Let me write down a few examples of their ethnic cleansing campaign: On March 7, 2008, Principal Divisional Public College Khuzdar Ashiq Hussain was gunned down; on April
        > 22, 2008, Professor Dr. Safdar Kiyani acting pro-vice chancellor of Balochistan University was killed outside his residence; on March 30, 2009, Principal Degree College Surab Muhammad Alam Zehri was shot dead; on June 14, 2009, in Kalat, masked motorcyclists shot dead a school teacher Mr. Anwar Baig; on June 17, 2009, BRC Khuzdar Vice Principal Khalid Mehmood Butt was killed; on June 22, 2009, Commerce College principal Amanat Ali Baig was shot dead; on July 23, 2009 Haji Mohammad Mohsin, the principal of a government high school in Quetta was murdered; on July 24, 2009 Prof Mohammad Sarwar of the Government Degree College, Quetta, was killed by armed men riding a motorcycle; on November 5, 2009, Chairman of Library Science Balochistan University, Professor Khursheed Ansari was killed; on April 27, 2010 Professor Nazima Talib was murdered outside Balochistan University; and the
        > list goes on.
        >
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        > In a just society, Mr. ABC, a local BSO Leader would be arrested for the murder of Professor XYZ, and would be put on trial. But Pakistan, like many developing countries, is not a just society—it is barely a notch above the animal world. Out in the wild coyote kills rabbit, lion kills coyote. Big deal! Mr. BSO leader killed his Punjabi teacher for no reason other than the ethnicity of his teacher; someone picked up Mr. BSO leader and killed him extra judicially. Justice done, third-world style.
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        > I am glad Brahmdagh Bugti has reached the right place, Geneva (close to Hague, where the International Criminal Court is). Hope Brahamdagh Bugti and Harbiyar Marri would be brought to justice for orchestrating ethnic cleansing in Balochistan. These men, along with the old man Khair Bakhsh Marri, are responsible for inciting hatred against Punjabis and Muhajirs settled in Balochistan. Just listen to their speeches and you would be convinced these people fit the very definition of demagogues whose inflammatory, hateful speech is resulting in violence against specific communities. It is anyone's guess why the Government of Pakistan is not presenting the facts to the international community and get Balochistan Republican Army and other thugs
        > classified as terrorist groups actively involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
        >
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Now look at it a different way. God forbid imagine a new land-locked country (bounded by Pashtun areas north of Quetta, Qalat in the west, Makran in the south, and Sindh in the east) called Balochistan coming into existence. How secure shall other ethnic groups feel, living in Balochistan (the land of the Baloch)—the name of the proposed state suggests a second-class citizenry level for all non-Baloch. Also, Can you imagine a concurrent wave of discrimination rising against the Baloch settlers in various parts of South Asia? Remember that half of southern Punjab has Baloch blood and may have Baloch names (for example, Liaqat Baloch, Jamat e Islami's General Secretary); half of western Sindh has Baloch blood and names (for example, Zardari, Pakistan's current
        > president). There are Baloch settlers as far east as Utter Pradesh and Gujarat, India. And the biggest Baloch city (with the highest population of people calling themselves `Baloch') is Karachi, outside `Balochistan.' After the perceived independence of Balochistan (land for the Baloch) should these settled Baloch communities face discrimination and be told by others to go back to where they belong? A nightmarish prospect, indeed!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The democratic government of Pakistan must act quickly to solve the `Balochistan issue.' The first step in resolving the Balochistan issue would be to divide Balochistan into four provinces: Zhob (Pashtun area north of Quetta), Qalat (historically a separate region), Makran (100 mile wide belt along the coast), and Balochistan (the area in the middle). Through this division the Baloch problem would be reduced to its actual size: the current unrest is not in the Pashtun areas, it is limited to the area between Khuzdar and Quetta. The proposed division is logical: why should the Pashtun areas be called Balochistan (land of Baloch), or the Makran belt be called Balochistan? After dividing Balochistan into these new provinces attention should be paid to calm the people in real Balochistan (the
        > proposed new province). Besides dividing Balochistan for better administration, there is a need to make similar divisions in all other provinces.
        >
        >
        > -------Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir
        > Qazi
        >
        >
        > It is fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out if the woods to
        > justify the denial of the right of self determination for the Baloch nation by
        > determine that the Baloch are still in a primitive stage of tribalism.
        >
        >
        > The Baloch have a distinct language, culture, cuisine, music, customs and
        > history. Isn't it disgusting that the an entire distinct nation is considered
        > unworthy of nationhood, yet the Arabs can have not one, but 22 countries and
        > this fact is lost on supposed avid Marxists.
        >
        >
        > The UAE and Oman as well as Qatar and Kuwait and Lebanon and Jordan can be
        > separate countries, but not Balochistan or Kurdistan.
        >
        >
        > None of my Baloch comrades are sirdars and even Sardar Ataullah or Nawab
        > Khair Bux are far more enlightened than their morose feudal-minded critics from
        > the villages of UP.
        >
        >
        > Tarek
        >
        > -
        > Sent from my iPhone
        >
        > On 2012-02-21, at 10:25 AM, 7243 <abbas7243@>
        > wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dr. Ehtisham wrote:
        >
        > "A very pertinent question was raised by your
        > interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
        > Baluchistan."
        >
        > How does this question becomes pertinent only to
        > independence of Baluchistan.
        >
        > Did we or do we ever question who primarily
        > would benefit or benefited from the secession of 5 Muslim majority states from
        > Hindu majority India - ordinary Mohammed and Khadijha?
        >
        > The interviewer in
        > conclusion comments; only the lords have benefited from the secession of Bengal
        > from Pakistan not the ordinary Bengali(may not be her exact words). Well, who is
        > benefiting or benefited in what is left of Pakistan - ordinary Khuda Bux and
        > Allah Wasaee?
        >
        > For the sixty four years we did nothing and showed any
        > concern for our ordinary Baluch brethren when our ruling establishment(mercenary
        > army, civil service and feudal lords)not just bribed the compliant Baluch
        > sardars, but also aided and abetted in perpetuation of their medieval sardari
        > system.
        >
        > Now this sudden concern for the ordinary Baluch sounds
        > hollow.
        >
        > Abbas
        >
        > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
        > Syed Ehtisham <syedmae@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Tahir,
        > >
        > Very good and comprehensive interview which I would recommend every one
        > interested in Pakistan and Baluchistan should watch in its entirety.
        > > I
        > have a few reservations. Nation state is a very late development in human
        > history. People used to owe allegiance to tribal chiefs, feudal landowners and
        > kings. Then about 35% of Baluchis live in Iran. And when I lived in Quetta in
        > the 1950s, about 40% of the population of the province was Pakhtoon.
        > >
        > Baluchis are still in the tribal stage, so it is difficult to apply the
        > definition of a nation to them.
        > > A very pertinent question was raised by
        > your interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
        > Baluchistan.
        > > In my opinion Pakistan needs a working class struggle.
        > Sindhi, Baluchi, Punjabi and Pashtun nationalism is a distraction from attention
        > to the working class.
        > > E
        > >
        > > Dr. S. Akhtar Ehtisham
        > >
        > (607) 776-3336
        > > P.O. Box 469,
        > > Bath NY 14810
        > > USA
        > >
        > Blog syedehtisham.blogspot.com
        > >
        > All religions try to take over the establishment and if they fail, they
        > collaborate with it, be it feudal or capitalist.
        > >
        > > --- On Sun,
        > 2/19/12, Tahir Qazi <qazimd@> wrote:
        > >
        > > From: Tahir Qazi
        > <qazimd@>
        > > Subject: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
        > > To:
        > "Syed Ehtisham" <syedmae@>
        > > Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012,
        > 12:50 PM
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear Dr. Sahib:
        > > Its been a long time.
        > Hope you are well ... Below is the link of my talk on Rawal TV with the anchor
        > Rubina Faisal on Balochistan:
        > >
        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmgePhlSUs
        > >
        > Any comments or feedback is welcome.
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > >
        > Tahir
        > >
        > > -- Tahir M. Qazi, MD
        > > Clinical
        > Neurophysiology
        > >
        > > Neuromuscular Diseases
        > > Physical
        > Medicine & Rehab.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > http://www.TarekFatah.com
        >
      • Moid Alam
        Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed. Lets not forget the India s festering wound: Kashmir. For more than 100 of
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 24, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          " Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed.  "

          Lets not forget the India's festering wound: Kashmir. For more than 100 of years, Kashmir has been managed by a minority govt aligned with the central govt (first it was English, then came the Indian rulers). Talk to most Indians about the human rights abuses in Kashmir, and the demand for plebiscite to find out what Kashmiris want, and u see a lot of frothing at the mouth. On average, most South Asians want to keep their country united by using whatever they have in hands: bullets, fighter jets, tanks, etc etc. I once suggested to an Indian friend that if Canada could give Quebec a right to vote on freedom, why not India. And the answer was "We are not Canada, if we let this happen , every other state will break apart". 

          From the first remark, "We are Canada", I think he meant "we r not as civilized ppl"
          From "if we let this happen , every other state will break apart", I think he meant "People only understand the meaning of dunda. The reason they r living within the country is because the center has danda".

          Indians and Pakistanis are alike in this thinking. If this is how we treat each other, there wont be any peace.

          Thanks



          > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
          > From: yadayada465@...
          > Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 06:04:40 +0000
          > Subject: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
          >
          > <<At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat>> very well put, human rights is critical to peaceful co-existence...agree
          >
          > Boundaries have always been artificial in nature can't imagine going back to tribalism and patriarchal self proclaimed autocratic sovereignty of tribal leaders in Sudan, take the example of a new nation of Southern Sudan creating a new artificial boundary for peaceful coexistence north and Christian south division has not brought peace to the new nation of Southern Sudan with further demand for power and tribal separation resulting in tribal conflict and fighting.
          >
          > There are 500 Bantu tribes in Sudan and people of Darfur being one of them some have compared Darfur with Balochistan. 500 nations within Sudan might be desirable where people can't come together for common good even if it means return to tribalism or tribal democracy some would argue.
          >
          > The other solution is what Tanzania did with its 200 tribes was to strip tribal leaders of its political power at regional level introducing direct democracy political representation for each of the 200 tribes in a centralized government creating one Tanzanite national identity, co equal rights, I suppose the same solution may not be practical in all circumstances where an Ethnic groups are divided between three countries like the Kurds in Iran, Iraq and Syria or Baloch in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, The debate will always remain what constitutes historically defined boundary for such a new nation and how to deal with such an issue.
          >
          > Lack of respect for fundamental human rights, insurgency, corruption and political terrorism in terms of ethnic loyalties, Sindhi, Punjabi etc and Pakistan's failure to mitigate such issues does not help to create a national unity Government, Osman Saheb is right in that Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed.
          >
          > Aziz
          >
          > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Moid Alam <moidalam@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Agreed with Osman and Tarek
          > > I am quiet perplexed by the idea of turning a country into a "catholic marriage", where there is no way out, no matter what kind of emotional/physical abuse parties have to suffer, for any time period.
          > > A country is a union of constituent groups of ppl and lands with their willing participation. When either the union or the constituent decides to part way, lets respect that. At that time of dissolution of marriage, lets call it a no-fault divorce, and move on. Trying to find out other man or other woman, or accusation of infidelity will just be counter productive. Balochistan and Pakistan had 60+ years to make it right. If they could not do it right in 6 decades, surely, they will never be able to , in 6 more decades.
          > > At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat
          > >
          > >
          > > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
          > > From: osman_sher@...
          > > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 05:38:35 -0800
          > > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Pakistan
          > > is the product of a false concept of nationhood. It is the product of the
          > > notorious Two-nation Theory, the universally acclaimed trap of the British to
          > > divide and rule. Its falsehood is apparent by Pakistani nation dividing itself
          > > in the various brands of pseudo-nationalism, mistreating each other, and then
          > > happy to get rid of the one that likes to go away. They do not hesitate to say
          > > that Baluchis are a nation by themselves, more akin to Iranians, and the people
          > > of PK more to Afghanistan,
          > > in the same way as the Bengalis had nothing common with West
          > > Pakistan. In fact, all the regions of the Subcontinent bordering
          > > other countries (Baluchistan, PK, Kashmir,
          > > Assam, Bangladesh,
          > > Tamil Nadu) were and are Indians at large. "India
          > > beyond all doubt possesses a deep underlying fundamental unity, far more
          > > profound than that produced either by geographical isolation or by political
          > > suzerainty. That unity transcends the innumerable diversities of blood, colour,
          > > language, dress, manners and sect." (See
          > > The Oxford History of India, Introduction, Fourth Edition, Vincent A.
          > > Smith, edited by Percival Spear)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > A nation is made of many components: religion, social values, culture, customs, traditions, language, history, geography,
          > > degree of social assimilation, and simply living together for a very long
          > > period.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In Pakistan
          > > how long we would go on mistreating each other and fragmenting ourselves?
          > > Osman Sher
          > > --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > From: Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...>
          > > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
          > > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
          > > Received: Thursday, February 23, 2012, 2:12 AM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Funny how Pakistan's Punjabis see nothing wrong in occupying Balochistan as "settlers", but are adamant in their rejection of say Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
          > > I reject the Jewish settlers and the Punjabi settlers who came on the backs of the Pakistan Army to loot Balochistan of its resources.
          > >
          > >
          > > Disgraceful to see how even supposed writers and intellectuals got nothing out of Dr. Tahir Qazi's fascinating interview, but held on to their addiction of false victimhood.
          > >
          > >
          > > Ma'am, I have lived with Khair Bux Marri; I have followed him as one of the great political and intellectual minds of the Subcontinent. Today you denigrate him and his family, yesterday your parents and other Punjabis danced in joy when Nauroze Khan's family was hanged to death or when Sherroo Marri was demonized as the enemy.
          > >
          > >
          > > Very soon Pakistan's Punjab will be left as a landlocked enclave, home to its one million army mimiv=cing an Arab and UP identity as it will become a laughing stock to those children whose parents died in Bangladesh, Balochistan, KP and Sind to stand up for their rights as a free people, not subservient to the fake machismo of surrendering generals.
          > >
          > >
          > > When we fought for the rights of the Bangladesh people, we faced similar rants from the Punjabi and Urdu-speaking elites who dreamt of themselves as the rightful owners of a defunct caliphate. They were shamed into humiliation then and they will face humiliation again, but they will only learn to respect others when they respect their own mother tongue and culture they have abandoned.
          > >
          > >
          > > The Baloch did not descend on Old Delhi or Lahore to settle there, then why do you wish to take their land and claim it as your own? Live and let live. They don't wish to live with you; why do you impose yourself on them?
          > >
          > >
          > > Tarek
          > >
          > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Farzana Butt <FarzanaGButt@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > If it is "fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out of the woods", it is equally fascinating to see bleeding-heart liberals losing their sense of rationality.
          > > Hope the following write-up would prove to be a food for thought.best,FGB
          > >
          > > Balochistan killings no one talks about
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Saleem Ahmed, Salt Lake City
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Lately there has been so much in the news about bullet-ridden bodies of people found in `Balochistan' and the right of the Baloch people. There was a US Congressional hearing on Balochistan; subsequent to that hearing a bill has been tabled in the Congress asking the US government to support the right of self-determination of the Baloch. There appears to be an international wave of sympathy for the `Baloch nationalists fighting for independence.' It is about time someone would write down the facts so that the people would know what is going on in Pakistan's `Balochistan.' And I write `Balochistan' in quotation marks because calling Pakistan's largest province `Balochistan' (land of the Baloch) is where most misunderstanding about the `Balochistan' issue stems
          > > from. A more appropriate name for the largest province of Pakistan would be SWFP (South West Frontier Province)—and that is what I would call it in this article, recognizing the fact that the Baloch people (hardly 45% of SWFP, if we stretch and count African-descent people of Makran as Baloch) are only one of the several ethnic groups living there.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Pakistan is a mismanaged third-world country. Mismanaged third-world countries are intrinsically unjust. Pakistan has been an equally bad experience for all ethnicities living in that country: Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Pashtun, Hazara, Baloch, Muhajir, and others. If Baloch are unhappy with the government of Pakistan they should first find out who is happy with the government.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Let's look at the SWFP killings. Did the world pay any attention to the killings of Punjabi and Muhajir settlers of SWFP throughout 2008, 2009, and 2010? Is it just a coincidence that the killings of `settlers' have greatly reduced after `Baloch nationalists' have started disappearing and their dead bodies being found in wilderness days later. No, it is not. These so-called nationalists were/are the people behind the ethnic cleansing operation. That old man on his death bed, Khair Bakhsh Marri, studied in Punjab, lived with Punjabis, but later in his life started spewing venom against the Punjabis. That hateful dialog has been picked up by his son, Harbyar Marri, and other so-called `Baloch
          > > nationalists' (including the fugitive Brahmdagh Bugti). These people are a disgrace to the beautiful word Sarmachar. These murderers have more blood on their hands than the worst serial killer. These so-called `Sarmachars' are responsible for the cold-blooded murder of around 30 teachers—all of them Punjabi or Muhajir-- in various colleges and universities of Balochistan. What was the crime of those teachers? Their ethnicity did not fit well in the pipe dream of those people who wish to see Baloch hegemony in areas south of Quetta. Let me write down a few examples of their ethnic cleansing campaign: On March 7, 2008, Principal Divisional Public College Khuzdar Ashiq Hussain was gunned down; on April
          > > 22, 2008, Professor Dr. Safdar Kiyani acting pro-vice chancellor of Balochistan University was killed outside his residence; on March 30, 2009, Principal Degree College Surab Muhammad Alam Zehri was shot dead; on June 14, 2009, in Kalat, masked motorcyclists shot dead a school teacher Mr. Anwar Baig; on June 17, 2009, BRC Khuzdar Vice Principal Khalid Mehmood Butt was killed; on June 22, 2009, Commerce College principal Amanat Ali Baig was shot dead; on July 23, 2009 Haji Mohammad Mohsin, the principal of a government high school in Quetta was murdered; on July 24, 2009 Prof Mohammad Sarwar of the Government Degree College, Quetta, was killed by armed men riding a motorcycle; on November 5, 2009, Chairman of Library Science Balochistan University, Professor Khursheed Ansari was killed; on April 27, 2010 Professor Nazima Talib was murdered outside Balochistan University; and the
          > > list goes on.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In a just society, Mr. ABC, a local BSO Leader would be arrested for the murder of Professor XYZ, and would be put on trial. But Pakistan, like many developing countries, is not a just society—it is barely a notch above the animal world. Out in the wild coyote kills rabbit, lion kills coyote. Big deal! Mr. BSO leader killed his Punjabi teacher for no reason other than the ethnicity of his teacher; someone picked up Mr. BSO leader and killed him extra judicially. Justice done, third-world style.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I am glad Brahmdagh Bugti has reached the right place, Geneva (close to Hague, where the International Criminal Court is). Hope Brahamdagh Bugti and Harbiyar Marri would be brought to justice for orchestrating ethnic cleansing in Balochistan. These men, along with the old man Khair Bakhsh Marri, are responsible for inciting hatred against Punjabis and Muhajirs settled in Balochistan. Just listen to their speeches and you would be convinced these people fit the very definition of demagogues whose inflammatory, hateful speech is resulting in violence against specific communities. It is anyone's guess why the Government of Pakistan is not presenting the facts to the international community and get Balochistan Republican Army and other thugs
          > > classified as terrorist groups actively involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Now look at it a different way. God forbid imagine a new land-locked country (bounded by Pashtun areas north of Quetta, Qalat in the west, Makran in the south, and Sindh in the east) called Balochistan coming into existence. How secure shall other ethnic groups feel, living in Balochistan (the land of the Baloch)—the name of the proposed state suggests a second-class citizenry level for all non-Baloch. Also, Can you imagine a concurrent wave of discrimination rising against the Baloch settlers in various parts of South Asia? Remember that half of southern Punjab has Baloch blood and may have Baloch names (for example, Liaqat Baloch, Jamat e Islami's General Secretary); half of western Sindh has Baloch blood and names (for example, Zardari, Pakistan's current
          > > president). There are Baloch settlers as far east as Utter Pradesh and Gujarat, India. And the biggest Baloch city (with the highest population of people calling themselves `Baloch') is Karachi, outside `Balochistan.' After the perceived independence of Balochistan (land for the Baloch) should these settled Baloch communities face discrimination and be told by others to go back to where they belong? A nightmarish prospect, indeed!
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The democratic government of Pakistan must act quickly to solve the `Balochistan issue.' The first step in resolving the Balochistan issue would be to divide Balochistan into four provinces: Zhob (Pashtun area north of Quetta), Qalat (historically a separate region), Makran (100 mile wide belt along the coast), and Balochistan (the area in the middle). Through this division the Baloch problem would be reduced to its actual size: the current unrest is not in the Pashtun areas, it is limited to the area between Khuzdar and Quetta. The proposed division is logical: why should the Pashtun areas be called Balochistan (land of Baloch), or the Makran belt be called Balochistan? After dividing Balochistan into these new provinces attention should be paid to calm the people in real Balochistan (the
          > > proposed new province). Besides dividing Balochistan for better administration, there is a need to make similar divisions in all other provinces.
          > >
          > >
          > > -------Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir
          > > Qazi
          > >
          > >
          > > It is fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out if the woods to
          > > justify the denial of the right of self determination for the Baloch nation by
          > > determine that the Baloch are still in a primitive stage of tribalism.
          > >
          > >
          > > The Baloch have a distinct language, culture, cuisine, music, customs and
          > > history. Isn't it disgusting that the an entire distinct nation is considered
          > > unworthy of nationhood, yet the Arabs can have not one, but 22 countries and
          > > this fact is lost on supposed avid Marxists.
          > >
          > >
          > > The UAE and Oman as well as Qatar and Kuwait and Lebanon and Jordan can be
          > > separate countries, but not Balochistan or Kurdistan.
          > >
          > >
          > > None of my Baloch comrades are sirdars and even Sardar Ataullah or Nawab
          > > Khair Bux are far more enlightened than their morose feudal-minded critics from
          > > the villages of UP.
          > >
          > >
          > > Tarek
          > >
          > > -
          > > Sent from my iPhone
          > >
          > > On 2012-02-21, at 10:25 AM, 7243 <abbas7243@>
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dr. Ehtisham wrote:
          > >
          > > "A very pertinent question was raised by your
          > > interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
          > > Baluchistan."
          > >
          > > How does this question becomes pertinent only to
          > > independence of Baluchistan.
          > >
          > > Did we or do we ever question who primarily
          > > would benefit or benefited from the secession of 5 Muslim majority states from
          > > Hindu majority India - ordinary Mohammed and Khadijha?
          > >
          > > The interviewer in
          > > conclusion comments; only the lords have benefited from the secession of Bengal
          > > from Pakistan not the ordinary Bengali(may not be her exact words). Well, who is
          > > benefiting or benefited in what is left of Pakistan - ordinary Khuda Bux and
          > > Allah Wasaee?
          > >
          > > For the sixty four years we did nothing and showed any
          > > concern for our ordinary Baluch brethren when our ruling establishment(mercenary
          > > army, civil service and feudal lords)not just bribed the compliant Baluch
          > > sardars, but also aided and abetted in perpetuation of their medieval sardari
          > > system.
          > >
          > > Now this sudden concern for the ordinary Baluch sounds
          > > hollow.
          > >
          > > Abbas
          > >
          > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
          > > Syed Ehtisham <syedmae@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dear Tahir,
          > > >
          > > Very good and comprehensive interview which I would recommend every one
          > > interested in Pakistan and Baluchistan should watch in its entirety.
          > > > I
          > > have a few reservations. Nation state is a very late development in human
          > > history. People used to owe allegiance to tribal chiefs, feudal landowners and
          > > kings. Then about 35% of Baluchis live in Iran. And when I lived in Quetta in
          > > the 1950s, about 40% of the population of the province was Pakhtoon.
          > > >
          > > Baluchis are still in the tribal stage, so it is difficult to apply the
          > > definition of a nation to them.
          > > > A very pertinent question was raised by
          > > your interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
          > > Baluchistan.
          > > > In my opinion Pakistan needs a working class struggle.
          > > Sindhi, Baluchi, Punjabi and Pashtun nationalism is a distraction from attention
          > > to the working class.
          > > > E
          > > >
          > > > Dr. S. Akhtar Ehtisham
          > > >
          > > (607) 776-3336
          > > > P.O. Box 469,
          > > > Bath NY 14810
          > > > USA
          > > >
          > > Blog syedehtisham.blogspot.com
          > > >
          > > All religions try to take over the establishment and if they fail, they
          > > collaborate with it, be it feudal or capitalist.
          > > >
          > > > --- On Sun,
          > > 2/19/12, Tahir Qazi <qazimd@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > From: Tahir Qazi
          > > <qazimd@>
          > > > Subject: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
          > > > To:
          > > "Syed Ehtisham" <syedmae@>
          > > > Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012,
          > > 12:50 PM
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Dear Dr. Sahib:
          > > > Its been a long time.
          > > Hope you are well ... Below is the link of my talk on Rawal TV with the anchor
          > > Rubina Faisal on Balochistan:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmgePhlSUs
          > > >
          > > Any comments or feedback is welcome.
          > > > Regards,
          > > >
          > > >
          > > Tahir
          > > >
          > > > -- Tahir M. Qazi, MD
          > > > Clinical
          > > Neurophysiology
          > > >
          > > > Neuromuscular Diseases
          > > > Physical
          > > Medicine & Rehab.
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > http://www.TarekFatah.com
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > * Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
          >
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        • Osman Sher
          Yes, our Indian brother is so right. Thanks to the creation of Pakistan, as conspired by the British through the Two -nation Theory and taken to a successful
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 24, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Yes, our Indian brother is so right. Thanks to the creation of Pakistan, as conspired by the British through the Two -nation Theory and taken to a successful end by fellow countrymen, every disgruntled community is now ever ready to foster the politics of separate nationalism and to break up from the main body.  

            Osman Sher

            --- On Sat, 2/25/12, Moid Alam <moidalam@...> wrote:

            From: Moid Alam <moidalam@...>
            Subject: RE: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
            To: "Writers Forum" <writers_forum@yahoogroups.com>
            Received: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 1:24 AM

             

            " Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed.  "

            Lets not forget the India's festering wound: Kashmir. For more than 100 of years, Kashmir has been managed by a minority govt aligned with the central govt (first it was English, then came the Indian rulers). Talk to most Indians about the human rights abuses in Kashmir, and the demand for plebiscite to find out what Kashmiris want, and u see a lot of frothing at the mouth. On average, most South Asians want to keep their country united by using whatever they have in hands: bullets, fighter jets, tanks, etc etc. I once suggested to an Indian friend that if Canada could give Quebec a right to vote on freedom, why not India. And the answer was "We are not Canada, if we let this happen , every other state will break apart". 

            From the first remark, "We are Canada", I think he meant "we r not as civilized ppl"
            From "if we let this happen , every other state will break apart", I think he meant "People only understand the meaning of dunda. The reason they r living within the country is because the center has danda".

            Indians and Pakistanis are alike in this thinking. If this is how we treat each other, there wont be any peace.

            Thanks



            > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
            > From: yadayada465@...
            > Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 06:04:40 +0000
            > Subject: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
            >
            > <<At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat>> very well put, human rights is critical to peaceful co-existence...agree
            >
            > Boundaries have always been artificial in nature can't imagine going back to tribalism and patriarchal self proclaimed autocratic sovereignty of tribal leaders in Sudan, take the example of a new nation of Southern Sudan creating a new artificial boundary for peaceful coexistence north and Christian south division has not brought peace to the new nation of Southern Sudan with further demand for power and tribal separation resulting in tribal conflict and fighting.
            >
            > There are 500 Bantu tribes in Sudan and people of Darfur being one of them some have compared Darfur with Balochistan. 500 nations within Sudan might be desirable where people can't come together for common good even if it means return to tribalism or tribal democracy some would argue.
            >
            > The other solution is what Tanzania did with its 200 tribes was to strip tribal leaders of its political power at regional level introducing direct democracy political representation for each of the 200 tribes in a centralized government creating one Tanzanite national identity, co equal rights, I suppose the same solution may not be practical in all circumstances where an Ethnic groups are divided between three countries like the Kurds in Iran, Iraq and Syria or Baloch in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, The debate will always remain what constitutes historically defined boundary for such a new nation and how to deal with such an issue.
            >
            > Lack of respect for fundamental human rights, insurgency, corruption and political terrorism in terms of ethnic loyalties, Sindhi, Punjabi etc and Pakistan's failure to mitigate such issues does not help to create a national unity Government, Osman Saheb is right in that Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed.
            >
            > Aziz
            >
            > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Moid Alam <moidalam@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Agreed with Osman and Tarek
            > > I am quiet perplexed by the idea of turning a country into a "catholic marriage", where there is no way out, no matter what kind of emotional/physical abuse parties have to suffer, for any time period.
            > > A country is a union of constituent groups of ppl and lands with their willing participation. When either the union or the constituent decides to part way, lets respect that. At that time of dissolution of marriage, lets call it a no-fault divorce, and move on. Trying to find out other man or other woman, or accusation of infidelity will just be counter productive. Balochistan and Pakistan had 60+ years to make it right. If they could not do it right in 6 decades, surely, they will never be able to , in 6 more decades.
            > > At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat
            > >
            > >
            > > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
            > > From: osman_sher@...
            > > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 05:38:35 -0800
            > > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Pakistan
            > > is the product of a false concept of nationhood. It is the product of the
            > > notorious Two-nation Theory, the universally acclaimed trap of the British to
            > > divide and rule. Its falsehood is apparent by Pakistani nation dividing itself
            > > in the various brands of pseudo-nationalism, mistreating each other, and then
            > > happy to get rid of the one that likes to go away. They do not hesitate to say
            > > that Baluchis are a nation by themselves, more akin to Iranians, and the people
            > > of PK more to Afghanistan,
            > > in the same way as the Bengalis had nothing common with West
            > > Pakistan. In fact, all the regions of the Subcontinent bordering
            > > other countries (Baluchistan, PK, Kashmir,
            > > Assam, Bangladesh,
            > > Tamil Nadu) were and are Indians at large. "India
            > > beyond all doubt possesses a deep underlying fundamental unity, far more
            > > profound than that produced either by geographical isolation or by political
            > > suzerainty. That unity transcends the innumerable diversities of blood, colour,
            > > language, dress, manners and sect." (See
            > > The Oxford History of India, Introduction, Fourth Edition, Vincent A.
            > > Smith, edited by Percival Spear)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > A nation is made of many components: religion, social values, culture, customs, traditions, language, history, geography,
            > > degree of social assimilation, and simply living together for a very long
            > > period.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In Pakistan
            > > how long we would go on mistreating each other and fragmenting ourselves?
            > > Osman Sher
            > > --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > From: Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@...>
            > > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
            > > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
            > > Received: Thursday, February 23, 2012, 2:12 AM
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Funny how Pakistan's Punjabis see nothing wrong in occupying Balochistan as "settlers", but are adamant in their rejection of say Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
            > > I reject the Jewish settlers and the Punjabi settlers who came on the backs of the Pakistan Army to loot Balochistan of its resources.
            > >
            > >
            > > Disgraceful to see how even supposed writers and intellectuals got nothing out of Dr. Tahir Qazi's fascinating interview, but held on to their addiction of false victimhood.
            > >
            > >
            > > Ma'am, I have lived with Khair Bux Marri; I have followed him as one of the great political and intellectual minds of the Subcontinent. Today you denigrate him and his family, yesterday your parents and other Punjabis danced in joy when Nauroze Khan's family was hanged to death or when Sherroo Marri was demonized as the enemy.
            > >
            > >
            > > Very soon Pakistan's Punjab will be left as a landlocked enclave, home to its one million army mimiv=cing an Arab and UP identity as it will become a laughing stock to those children whose parents died in Bangladesh, Balochistan, KP and Sind to stand up for their rights as a free people, not subservient to the fake machismo of surrendering generals.
            > >
            > >
            > > When we fought for the rights of the Bangladesh people, we faced similar rants from the Punjabi and Urdu-speaking elites who dreamt of themselves as the rightful owners of a defunct caliphate. They were shamed into humiliation then and they will face humiliation again, but they will only learn to respect others when they respect their own mother tongue and culture they have abandoned.
            > >
            > >
            > > The Baloch did not descend on Old Delhi or Lahore to settle there, then why do you wish to take their land and claim it as your own? Live and let live. They don't wish to live with you; why do you impose yourself on them?
            > >
            > >
            > > Tarek
            > >
            > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Farzana Butt <FarzanaGButt@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > If it is "fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out of the woods", it is equally fascinating to see bleeding-heart liberals losing their sense of rationality.
            > > Hope the following write-up would prove to be a food for thought.best,FGB
            > >
            > > Balochistan killings no one talks about
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Saleem Ahmed, Salt Lake City
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Lately there has been so much in the news about bullet-ridden bodies of people found in `Balochistan' and the right of the Baloch people. There was a US Congressional hearing on Balochistan; subsequent to that hearing a bill has been tabled in the Congress asking the US government to support the right of self-determination of the Baloch. There appears to be an international wave of sympathy for the `Baloch nationalists fighting for independence.' It is about time someone would write down the facts so that the people would know what is going on in Pakistan's `Balochistan.' And I write `Balochistan' in quotation marks because calling Pakistan's largest province `Balochistan' (land of the Baloch) is where most misunderstanding about the `Balochistan' issue stems
            > > from. A more appropriate name for the largest province of Pakistan would be SWFP (South West Frontier Province)—and that is what I would call it in this article, recognizing the fact that the Baloch people (hardly 45% of SWFP, if we stretch and count African-descent people of Makran as Baloch) are only one of the several ethnic groups living there.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Pakistan is a mismanaged third-world country. Mismanaged third-world countries are intrinsically unjust. Pakistan has been an equally bad experience for all ethnicities living in that country: Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Pashtun, Hazara, Baloch, Muhajir, and others. If Baloch are unhappy with the government of Pakistan they should first find out who is happy with the government.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Let's look at the SWFP killings. Did the world pay any attention to the killings of Punjabi and Muhajir settlers of SWFP throughout 2008, 2009, and 2010? Is it just a coincidence that the killings of `settlers' have greatly reduced after `Baloch nationalists' have started disappearing and their dead bodies being found in wilderness days later. No, it is not. These so-called nationalists were/are the people behind the ethnic cleansing operation. That old man on his death bed, Khair Bakhsh Marri, studied in Punjab, lived with Punjabis, but later in his life started spewing venom against the Punjabis. That hateful dialog has been picked up by his son, Harbyar Marri, and other so-called `Baloch
            > > nationalists' (including the fugitive Brahmdagh Bugti). These people are a disgrace to the beautiful word Sarmachar. These murderers have more blood on their hands than the worst serial killer. These so-called `Sarmachars' are responsible for the cold-blooded murder of around 30 teachers—all of them Punjabi or Muhajir-- in various colleges and universities of Balochistan. What was the crime of those teachers? Their ethnicity did not fit well in the pipe dream of those people who wish to see Baloch hegemony in areas south of Quetta. Let me write down a few examples of their ethnic cleansing campaign: On March 7, 2008, Principal Divisional Public College Khuzdar Ashiq Hussain was gunned down; on April
            > > 22, 2008, Professor Dr. Safdar Kiyani acting pro-vice chancellor of Balochistan University was killed outside his residence; on March 30, 2009, Principal Degree College Surab Muhammad Alam Zehri was shot dead; on June 14, 2009, in Kalat, masked motorcyclists shot dead a school teacher Mr. Anwar Baig; on June 17, 2009, BRC Khuzdar Vice Principal Khalid Mehmood Butt was killed; on June 22, 2009, Commerce College principal Amanat Ali Baig was shot dead; on July 23, 2009 Haji Mohammad Mohsin, the principal of a government high school in Quetta was murdered; on July 24, 2009 Prof Mohammad Sarwar of the Government Degree College, Quetta, was killed by armed men riding a motorcycle; on November 5, 2009, Chairman of Library Science Balochistan University, Professor Khursheed Ansari was killed; on April 27, 2010 Professor Nazima Talib was murdered outside Balochistan University; and the
            > > list goes on.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In a just society, Mr. ABC, a local BSO Leader would be arrested for the murder of Professor XYZ, and would be put on trial. But Pakistan, like many developing countries, is not a just society—it is barely a notch above the animal world. Out in the wild coyote kills rabbit, lion kills coyote. Big deal! Mr. BSO leader killed his Punjabi teacher for no reason other than the ethnicity of his teacher; someone picked up Mr. BSO leader and killed him extra judicially. Justice done, third-world style.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I am glad Brahmdagh Bugti has reached the right place, Geneva (close to Hague, where the International Criminal Court is). Hope Brahamdagh Bugti and Harbiyar Marri would be brought to justice for orchestrating ethnic cleansing in Balochistan. These men, along with the old man Khair Bakhsh Marri, are responsible for inciting hatred against Punjabis and Muhajirs settled in Balochistan. Just listen to their speeches and you would be convinced these people fit the very definition of demagogues whose inflammatory, hateful speech is resulting in violence against specific communities. It is anyone's guess why the Government of Pakistan is not presenting the facts to the international community and get Balochistan Republican Army and other thugs
            > > classified as terrorist groups actively involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Now look at it a different way. God forbid imagine a new land-locked country (bounded by Pashtun areas north of Quetta, Qalat in the west, Makran in the south, and Sindh in the east) called Balochistan coming into existence. How secure shall other ethnic groups feel, living in Balochistan (the land of the Baloch)—the name of the proposed state suggests a second-class citizenry level for all non-Baloch. Also, Can you imagine a concurrent wave of discrimination rising against the Baloch settlers in various parts of South Asia? Remember that half of southern Punjab has Baloch blood and may have Baloch names (for example, Liaqat Baloch, Jamat e Islami's General Secretary); half of western Sindh has Baloch blood and names (for example, Zardari, Pakistan's current
            > > president). There are Baloch settlers as far east as Utter Pradesh and Gujarat, India. And the biggest Baloch city (with the highest population of people calling themselves `Baloch') is Karachi, outside `Balochistan.' After the perceived independence of Balochistan (land for the Baloch) should these settled Baloch communities face discrimination and be told by others to go back to where they belong? A nightmarish prospect, indeed!
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The democratic government of Pakistan must act quickly to solve the `Balochistan issue.' The first step in resolving the Balochistan issue would be to divide Balochistan into four provinces: Zhob (Pashtun area north of Quetta), Qalat (historically a separate region), Makran (100 mile wide belt along the coast), and Balochistan (the area in the middle). Through this division the Baloch problem would be reduced to its actual size: the current unrest is not in the Pashtun areas, it is limited to the area between Khuzdar and Quetta. The proposed division is logical: why should the Pashtun areas be called Balochistan (land of Baloch), or the Makran belt be called Balochistan? After dividing Balochistan into these new provinces attention should be paid to calm the people in real Balochistan (the
            > > proposed new province). Besides dividing Balochistan for better administration, there is a need to make similar divisions in all other provinces.
            > >
            > >
            > > -------Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir
            > > Qazi
            > >
            > >
            > > It is fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out if the woods to
            > > justify the denial of the right of self determination for the Baloch nation by
            > > determine that the Baloch are still in a primitive stage of tribalism.
            > >
            > >
            > > The Baloch have a distinct language, culture, cuisine, music, customs and
            > > history. Isn't it disgusting that the an entire distinct nation is considered
            > > unworthy of nationhood, yet the Arabs can have not one, but 22 countries and
            > > this fact is lost on supposed avid Marxists.
            > >
            > >
            > > The UAE and Oman as well as Qatar and Kuwait and Lebanon and Jordan can be
            > > separate countries, but not Balochistan or Kurdistan.
            > >
            > >
            > > None of my Baloch comrades are sirdars and even Sardar Ataullah or Nawab
            > > Khair Bux are far more enlightened than their morose feudal-minded critics from
            > > the villages of UP.
            > >
            > >
            > > Tarek
            > >
            > > -
            > > Sent from my iPhone
            > >
            > > On 2012-02-21, at 10:25 AM, 7243 <abbas7243@>
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Dr. Ehtisham wrote:
            > >
            > > "A very pertinent question was raised by your
            > > interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
            > > Baluchistan."
            > >
            > > How does this question becomes pertinent only to
            > > independence of Baluchistan.
            > >
            > > Did we or do we ever question who primarily
            > > would benefit or benefited from the secession of 5 Muslim majority states from
            > > Hindu majority India - ordinary Mohammed and Khadijha?
            > >
            > > The interviewer in
            > > conclusion comments; only the lords have benefited from the secession of Bengal
            > > from Pakistan not the ordinary Bengali(may not be her exact words). Well, who is
            > > benefiting or benefited in what is left of Pakistan - ordinary Khuda Bux and
            > > Allah Wasaee?
            > >
            > > For the sixty four years we did nothing and showed any
            > > concern for our ordinary Baluch brethren when our ruling establishment(mercenary
            > > army, civil service and feudal lords)not just bribed the compliant Baluch
            > > sardars, but also aided and abetted in perpetuation of their medieval sardari
            > > system.
            > >
            > > Now this sudden concern for the ordinary Baluch sounds
            > > hollow.
            > >
            > > Abbas
            > >
            > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
            > > Syed Ehtisham <syedmae@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dear Tahir,
            > > >
            > > Very good and comprehensive interview which I would recommend every one
            > > interested in Pakistan and Baluchistan should watch in its entirety.
            > > > I
            > > have a few reservations. Nation state is a very late development in human
            > > history. People used to owe allegiance to tribal chiefs, feudal landowners and
            > > kings. Then about 35% of Baluchis live in Iran. And when I lived in Quetta in
            > > the 1950s, about 40% of the population of the province was Pakhtoon.
            > > >
            > > Baluchis are still in the tribal stage, so it is difficult to apply the
            > > definition of a nation to them.
            > > > A very pertinent question was raised by
            > > your interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
            > > Baluchistan.
            > > > In my opinion Pakistan needs a working class struggle.
            > > Sindhi, Baluchi, Punjabi and Pashtun nationalism is a distraction from attention
            > > to the working class.
            > > > E
            > > >
            > > > Dr. S. Akhtar Ehtisham
            > > >
            > > (607) 776-3336
            > > > P.O. Box 469,
            > > > Bath NY 14810
            > > > USA
            > > >
            > > Blog syedehtisham.blogspot.com
            > > >
            > > All religions try to take over the establishment and if they fail, they
            > > collaborate with it, be it feudal or capitalist.
            > > >
            > > > --- On Sun,
            > > 2/19/12, Tahir Qazi <qazimd@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > From: Tahir Qazi
            > > <qazimd@>
            > > > Subject: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
            > > > To:
            > > "Syed Ehtisham" <syedmae@>
            > > > Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012,
            > > 12:50 PM
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Dear Dr. Sahib:
            > > > Its been a long time.
            > > Hope you are well ... Below is the link of my talk on Rawal TV with the anchor
            > > Rubina Faisal on Balochistan:
            > > >
            > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmgePhlSUs
            > > >
            > > Any comments or feedback is welcome.
            > > > Regards,
            > > >
            > > >
            > > Tahir
            > > >
            > > > -- Tahir M. Qazi, MD
            > > > Clinical
            > > Neurophysiology
            > > >
            > > > Neuromuscular Diseases
            > > > Physical
            > > Medicine & Rehab.
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > http://www.TarekFatah.com
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > * Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
            >
            > Article 19, Universal Declaration of Human Rights
            > ---------------------------------------
            > Support Freedom of Expression: Join PEN Canada today!
            > http://www.pencanada.ca/
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          • aziz_yadayada
            You make a good point about Kashmir and some Indian Pakistani thinking, The mindset of forced integration may be a social conditioning in the political sense
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 24, 2012
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              You make a good point about Kashmir and some Indian Pakistani thinking, The mindset of forced integration may be a social conditioning in the political sense that always infringes on minority rights. This is the sad legacy of deconstructing Colonialism where Religious or cultural diversity was never given a thought and peace should only be sustained by compromise in some cases it works because of progressive leadership.

              Mind you during Quebec and FLQ crisis and Prime Minister Trudeau also had threatened to use force to keep Quebec within the Federation at the same time with his progressive leadership not always politically popular there was the foundation of Pluralism laid, Meech accord, Multiculturalism act, Canadian Charter, recognizing unique French identity, Pluralism of Languages,culture and people, Personally I think it can be a model for pluralistic co-existence elsewhere as well.....Use of Dunda and Lathi can never be the solution and Pluralistic federalist approach with limited autonomy respecting democratic principle and human rights is a much preferred way.

              Sovereignty vote in Quebec While Chretien was the PM failed and people in Quebec rejected the Separatist motion, had it succeeded I don't know what the reaction of rest of Canada would be, given Canada is such a balanced, caring and peaceful country, I would hate to see anything go wrong here.

              Aziz

              --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Moid Alam <moidalam@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > "
              > Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed. "
              > Lets not forget the India's festering wound: Kashmir. For more than 100 of years, Kashmir has been managed by a minority govt aligned with the central govt (first it was English, then came the Indian rulers). Talk to most Indians about the human rights abuses in Kashmir, and the demand for plebiscite to find out what Kashmiris want, and u see a lot of frothing at the mouth. On average, most South Asians want to keep their country united by using whatever they have in hands: bullets, fighter jets, tanks, etc etc. I once suggested to an Indian friend that if Canada could give Quebec a right to vote on freedom, why not India. And the answer was "We are not Canada, if we let this happen , every other state will break apart".
              > From the first remark, "We are Canada", I think he meant "we r not as civilized ppl"From "if we let this happen , every other state will break apart", I think he meant "People only understand the meaning of dunda. The reason they r living within the country is because the center has danda".
              > Indians and Pakistanis are alike in this thinking. If this is how we treat each other, there wont be any peace.
              > Thanks
              >
              >
              > > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: yadayada465@...
              > > Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 06:04:40 +0000
              > > Subject: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
              > >
              > > <<At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat>> very well put, human rights is critical to peaceful co-existence...agree
              > >
              > > Boundaries have always been artificial in nature can't imagine going back to tribalism and patriarchal self proclaimed autocratic sovereignty of tribal leaders in Sudan, take the example of a new nation of Southern Sudan creating a new artificial boundary for peaceful coexistence north and Christian south division has not brought peace to the new nation of Southern Sudan with further demand for power and tribal separation resulting in tribal conflict and fighting.
              > >
              > > There are 500 Bantu tribes in Sudan and people of Darfur being one of them some have compared Darfur with Balochistan. 500 nations within Sudan might be desirable where people can't come together for common good even if it means return to tribalism or tribal democracy some would argue.
              > >
              > > The other solution is what Tanzania did with its 200 tribes was to strip tribal leaders of its political power at regional level introducing direct democracy political representation for each of the 200 tribes in a centralized government creating one Tanzanite national identity, co equal rights, I suppose the same solution may not be practical in all circumstances where an Ethnic groups are divided between three countries like the Kurds in Iran, Iraq and Syria or Baloch in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan, The debate will always remain what constitutes historically defined boundary for such a new nation and how to deal with such an issue.
              > >
              > > Lack of respect for fundamental human rights, insurgency, corruption and political terrorism in terms of ethnic loyalties, Sindhi, Punjabi etc and Pakistan's failure to mitigate such issues does not help to create a national unity Government, Osman Saheb is right in that Ethnic and sectarian differences also existed in India but better managed.
              > >
              > > Aziz
              > >
              > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Moid Alam <moidalam@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Agreed with Osman and Tarek
              > > > I am quiet perplexed by the idea of turning a country into a "catholic marriage", where there is no way out, no matter what kind of emotional/physical abuse parties have to suffer, for any time period.
              > > > A country is a union of constituent groups of ppl and lands with their willing participation. When either the union or the constituent decides to part way, lets respect that. At that time of dissolution of marriage, lets call it a no-fault divorce, and move on. Trying to find out other man or other woman, or accusation of infidelity will just be counter productive. Balochistan and Pakistan had 60+ years to make it right. If they could not do it right in 6 decades, surely, they will never be able to , in 6 more decades.
              > > > At the end of the day, the focal point should be providing opportunities to ppl for their flourishing. Boundaries do not matter. When boundaries become the focal point, ppl's rights and aspirations take the back seat
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
              > > > From: osman_sher@
              > > > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 05:38:35 -0800
              > > > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
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              > > >
              > > > Pakistan
              > > > is the product of a false concept of nationhood. It is the product of the
              > > > notorious Two-nation Theory, the universally acclaimed trap of the British to
              > > > divide and rule. Its falsehood is apparent by Pakistani nation dividing itself
              > > > in the various brands of pseudo-nationalism, mistreating each other, and then
              > > > happy to get rid of the one that likes to go away. They do not hesitate to say
              > > > that Baluchis are a nation by themselves, more akin to Iranians, and the people
              > > > of PK more to Afghanistan,
              > > > in the same way as the Bengalis had nothing common with West
              > > > Pakistan. In fact, all the regions of the Subcontinent bordering
              > > > other countries (Baluchistan, PK, Kashmir,
              > > > Assam, Bangladesh,
              > > > Tamil Nadu) were and are Indians at large. "India
              > > > beyond all doubt possesses a deep underlying fundamental unity, far more
              > > > profound than that produced either by geographical isolation or by political
              > > > suzerainty. That unity transcends the innumerable diversities of blood, colour,
              > > > language, dress, manners and sect." (See
              > > > The Oxford History of India, Introduction, Fourth Edition, Vincent A.
              > > > Smith, edited by Percival Spear)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > A nation is made of many components: religion, social values, culture, customs, traditions, language, history, geography,
              > > > degree of social assimilation, and simply living together for a very long
              > > > period.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > In Pakistan
              > > > how long we would go on mistreating each other and fragmenting ourselves?
              > > > Osman Sher
              > > > --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > From: Tarek Fatah <tarek.fatah@>
              > > > Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
              > > > To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Received: Thursday, February 23, 2012, 2:12 AM
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
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              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Funny how Pakistan's Punjabis see nothing wrong in occupying Balochistan as "settlers", but are adamant in their rejection of say Jewish settlers in the West Bank.
              > > > I reject the Jewish settlers and the Punjabi settlers who came on the backs of the Pakistan Army to loot Balochistan of its resources.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Disgraceful to see how even supposed writers and intellectuals got nothing out of Dr. Tahir Qazi's fascinating interview, but held on to their addiction of false victimhood.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Ma'am, I have lived with Khair Bux Marri; I have followed him as one of the great political and intellectual minds of the Subcontinent. Today you denigrate him and his family, yesterday your parents and other Punjabis danced in joy when Nauroze Khan's family was hanged to death or when Sherroo Marri was demonized as the enemy.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Very soon Pakistan's Punjab will be left as a landlocked enclave, home to its one million army mimiv=cing an Arab and UP identity as it will become a laughing stock to those children whose parents died in Bangladesh, Balochistan, KP and Sind to stand up for their rights as a free people, not subservient to the fake machismo of surrendering generals.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > When we fought for the rights of the Bangladesh people, we faced similar rants from the Punjabi and Urdu-speaking elites who dreamt of themselves as the rightful owners of a defunct caliphate. They were shamed into humiliation then and they will face humiliation again, but they will only learn to respect others when they respect their own mother tongue and culture they have abandoned.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The Baloch did not descend on Old Delhi or Lahore to settle there, then why do you wish to take their land and claim it as your own? Live and let live. They don't wish to live with you; why do you impose yourself on them?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Tarek
              > > >
              > > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Farzana Butt <FarzanaGButt@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
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              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > If it is "fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out of the woods", it is equally fascinating to see bleeding-heart liberals losing their sense of rationality.
              > > > Hope the following write-up would prove to be a food for thought.best,FGB
              > > >
              > > > Balochistan killings no one talks about
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Saleem Ahmed, Salt Lake City
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Lately there has been so much in the news about bullet-ridden bodies of people found in `Balochistan' and the right of the Baloch people. There was a US Congressional hearing on Balochistan; subsequent to that hearing a bill has been tabled in the Congress asking the US government to support the right of self-determination of the Baloch. There appears to be an international wave of sympathy for the `Baloch nationalists fighting for independence.' It is about time someone would write down the facts so that the people would know what is going on in Pakistan's `Balochistan.' And I write `Balochistan' in quotation marks because calling Pakistan's largest province `Balochistan' (land of the Baloch) is where most misunderstanding about the `Balochistan' issue stems
              > > > from. A more appropriate name for the largest province of Pakistan would be SWFP (South West Frontier Province)—and that is what I would call it in this article, recognizing the fact that the Baloch people (hardly 45% of SWFP, if we stretch and count African-descent people of Makran as Baloch) are only one of the several ethnic groups living there.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Pakistan is a mismanaged third-world country. Mismanaged third-world countries are intrinsically unjust. Pakistan has been an equally bad experience for all ethnicities living in that country: Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Pashtun, Hazara, Baloch, Muhajir, and others. If Baloch are unhappy with the government of Pakistan they should first find out who is happy with the government.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Let's look at the SWFP killings. Did the world pay any attention to the killings of Punjabi and Muhajir settlers of SWFP throughout 2008, 2009, and 2010? Is it just a coincidence that the killings of `settlers' have greatly reduced after `Baloch nationalists' have started disappearing and their dead bodies being found in wilderness days later. No, it is not. These so-called nationalists were/are the people behind the ethnic cleansing operation. That old man on his death bed, Khair Bakhsh Marri, studied in Punjab, lived with Punjabis, but later in his life started spewing venom against the Punjabis. That hateful dialog has been picked up by his son, Harbyar Marri, and other so-called `Baloch
              > > > nationalists' (including the fugitive Brahmdagh Bugti). These people are a disgrace to the beautiful word Sarmachar. These murderers have more blood on their hands than the worst serial killer. These so-called `Sarmachars' are responsible for the cold-blooded murder of around 30 teachers—all of them Punjabi or Muhajir-- in various colleges and universities of Balochistan. What was the crime of those teachers? Their ethnicity did not fit well in the pipe dream of those people who wish to see Baloch hegemony in areas south of Quetta. Let me write down a few examples of their ethnic cleansing campaign: On March 7, 2008, Principal Divisional Public College Khuzdar Ashiq Hussain was gunned down; on April
              > > > 22, 2008, Professor Dr. Safdar Kiyani acting pro-vice chancellor of Balochistan University was killed outside his residence; on March 30, 2009, Principal Degree College Surab Muhammad Alam Zehri was shot dead; on June 14, 2009, in Kalat, masked motorcyclists shot dead a school teacher Mr. Anwar Baig; on June 17, 2009, BRC Khuzdar Vice Principal Khalid Mehmood Butt was killed; on June 22, 2009, Commerce College principal Amanat Ali Baig was shot dead; on July 23, 2009 Haji Mohammad Mohsin, the principal of a government high school in Quetta was murdered; on July 24, 2009 Prof Mohammad Sarwar of the Government Degree College, Quetta, was killed by armed men riding a motorcycle; on November 5, 2009, Chairman of Library Science Balochistan University, Professor Khursheed Ansari was killed; on April 27, 2010 Professor Nazima Talib was murdered outside Balochistan University; and the
              > > > list goes on.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > In a just society, Mr. ABC, a local BSO Leader would be arrested for the murder of Professor XYZ, and would be put on trial. But Pakistan, like many developing countries, is not a just society—it is barely a notch above the animal world. Out in the wild coyote kills rabbit, lion kills coyote. Big deal! Mr. BSO leader killed his Punjabi teacher for no reason other than the ethnicity of his teacher; someone picked up Mr. BSO leader and killed him extra judicially. Justice done, third-world style.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I am glad Brahmdagh Bugti has reached the right place, Geneva (close to Hague, where the International Criminal Court is). Hope Brahamdagh Bugti and Harbiyar Marri would be brought to justice for orchestrating ethnic cleansing in Balochistan. These men, along with the old man Khair Bakhsh Marri, are responsible for inciting hatred against Punjabis and Muhajirs settled in Balochistan. Just listen to their speeches and you would be convinced these people fit the very definition of demagogues whose inflammatory, hateful speech is resulting in violence against specific communities. It is anyone's guess why the Government of Pakistan is not presenting the facts to the international community and get Balochistan Republican Army and other thugs
              > > > classified as terrorist groups actively involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Now look at it a different way. God forbid imagine a new land-locked country (bounded by Pashtun areas north of Quetta, Qalat in the west, Makran in the south, and Sindh in the east) called Balochistan coming into existence. How secure shall other ethnic groups feel, living in Balochistan (the land of the Baloch)—the name of the proposed state suggests a second-class citizenry level for all non-Baloch. Also, Can you imagine a concurrent wave of discrimination rising against the Baloch settlers in various parts of South Asia? Remember that half of southern Punjab has Baloch blood and may have Baloch names (for example, Liaqat Baloch, Jamat e Islami's General Secretary); half of western Sindh has Baloch blood and names (for example, Zardari, Pakistan's current
              > > > president). There are Baloch settlers as far east as Utter Pradesh and Gujarat, India. And the biggest Baloch city (with the highest population of people calling themselves `Baloch') is Karachi, outside `Balochistan.' After the perceived independence of Balochistan (land for the Baloch) should these settled Baloch communities face discrimination and be told by others to go back to where they belong? A nightmarish prospect, indeed!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The democratic government of Pakistan must act quickly to solve the `Balochistan issue.' The first step in resolving the Balochistan issue would be to divide Balochistan into four provinces: Zhob (Pashtun area north of Quetta), Qalat (historically a separate region), Makran (100 mile wide belt along the coast), and Balochistan (the area in the middle). Through this division the Baloch problem would be reduced to its actual size: the current unrest is not in the Pashtun areas, it is limited to the area between Khuzdar and Quetta. The proposed division is logical: why should the Pashtun areas be called Balochistan (land of Baloch), or the Makran belt be called Balochistan? After dividing Balochistan into these new provinces attention should be paid to calm the people in real Balochistan (the
              > > > proposed new province). Besides dividing Balochistan for better administration, there is a need to make similar divisions in all other provinces.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > -------Re: [Writers Forum] Re: On Balochistan - Tahir
              > > > Qazi
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > It is fascinating to see old-feudal mindset coming out if the woods to
              > > > justify the denial of the right of self determination for the Baloch nation by
              > > > determine that the Baloch are still in a primitive stage of tribalism.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The Baloch have a distinct language, culture, cuisine, music, customs and
              > > > history. Isn't it disgusting that the an entire distinct nation is considered
              > > > unworthy of nationhood, yet the Arabs can have not one, but 22 countries and
              > > > this fact is lost on supposed avid Marxists.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > The UAE and Oman as well as Qatar and Kuwait and Lebanon and Jordan can be
              > > > separate countries, but not Balochistan or Kurdistan.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > None of my Baloch comrades are sirdars and even Sardar Ataullah or Nawab
              > > > Khair Bux are far more enlightened than their morose feudal-minded critics from
              > > > the villages of UP.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Tarek
              > > >
              > > > -
              > > > Sent from my iPhone
              > > >
              > > > On 2012-02-21, at 10:25 AM, 7243 <abbas7243@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Dr. Ehtisham wrote:
              > > >
              > > > "A very pertinent question was raised by your
              > > > interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
              > > > Baluchistan."
              > > >
              > > > How does this question becomes pertinent only to
              > > > independence of Baluchistan.
              > > >
              > > > Did we or do we ever question who primarily
              > > > would benefit or benefited from the secession of 5 Muslim majority states from
              > > > Hindu majority India - ordinary Mohammed and Khadijha?
              > > >
              > > > The interviewer in
              > > > conclusion comments; only the lords have benefited from the secession of Bengal
              > > > from Pakistan not the ordinary Bengali(may not be her exact words). Well, who is
              > > > benefiting or benefited in what is left of Pakistan - ordinary Khuda Bux and
              > > > Allah Wasaee?
              > > >
              > > > For the sixty four years we did nothing and showed any
              > > > concern for our ordinary Baluch brethren when our ruling establishment(mercenary
              > > > army, civil service and feudal lords)not just bribed the compliant Baluch
              > > > sardars, but also aided and abetted in perpetuation of their medieval sardari
              > > > system.
              > > >
              > > > Now this sudden concern for the ordinary Baluch sounds
              > > > hollow.
              > > >
              > > > Abbas
              > > >
              > > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com,
              > > > Syed Ehtisham <syedmae@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Dear Tahir,
              > > > >
              > > > Very good and comprehensive interview which I would recommend every one
              > > > interested in Pakistan and Baluchistan should watch in its entirety.
              > > > > I
              > > > have a few reservations. Nation state is a very late development in human
              > > > history. People used to owe allegiance to tribal chiefs, feudal landowners and
              > > > kings. Then about 35% of Baluchis live in Iran. And when I lived in Quetta in
              > > > the 1950s, about 40% of the population of the province was Pakhtoon.
              > > > >
              > > > Baluchis are still in the tribal stage, so it is difficult to apply the
              > > > definition of a nation to them.
              > > > > A very pertinent question was raised by
              > > > your interviewer, as to who would benefit primarily from independence of
              > > > Baluchistan.
              > > > > In my opinion Pakistan needs a working class struggle.
              > > > Sindhi, Baluchi, Punjabi and Pashtun nationalism is a distraction from attention
              > > > to the working class.
              > > > > E
              > > > >
              > > > > Dr. S. Akhtar Ehtisham
              > > > >
              > > > (607) 776-3336
              > > > > P.O. Box 469,
              > > > > Bath NY 14810
              > > > > USA
              > > > >
              > > > Blog syedehtisham.blogspot.com
              > > > >
              > > > All religions try to take over the establishment and if they fail, they
              > > > collaborate with it, be it feudal or capitalist.
              > > > >
              > > > > --- On Sun,
              > > > 2/19/12, Tahir Qazi <qazimd@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > From: Tahir Qazi
              > > > <qazimd@>
              > > > > Subject: On Balochistan - Tahir Qazi
              > > > > To:
              > > > "Syed Ehtisham" <syedmae@>
              > > > > Date: Sunday, February 19, 2012,
              > > > 12:50 PM
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Dear Dr. Sahib:
              > > > > Its been a long time.
              > > > Hope you are well ... Below is the link of my talk on Rawal TV with the anchor
              > > > Rubina Faisal on Balochistan:
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNmgePhlSUs
              > > > >
              > > > Any comments or feedback is welcome.
              > > > > Regards,
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > Tahir
              > > > >
              > > > > -- Tahir M. Qazi, MD
              > > > > Clinical
              > > > Neurophysiology
              > > > >
              > > > > Neuromuscular Diseases
              > > > > Physical
              > > > Medicine & Rehab.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --
              > > > http://www.TarekFatah.com
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
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              > >
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