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Re: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

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  • Munir Pervaiz (Saami)
    Hello Friends, There have been some comments by Akhtar Khan sahib s paraphrasing of one of Ghalib s most sublime lines. It is the sublimity and the perceived
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 1, 2009
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      Hello Friends,

      There have been some comments on Akhtar Khan sahib's paraphrasing of one of Ghalib's most sublime lines. It is the sublimity and the perceived shattering of that sublime that has probably caused some very just anxiety here.

      I am commenting only because the subject of the thread has been, "Munir Saami is an Idiot". It was on this subject that Akhtar sahib paraphrased with his translation of Ghalib's :

      Ya rab zamaana mujh ko mitaata hay kis liyay
      Loh e JahaaN pay Harf e Mukarrar nahiN hooN meiN

      The difficulty with Ghalib and English language is that, we do not have decent Ghalib translations into English. I would like to note here that I have occasionally found similar thoughts as expressed by Ghalib, in Blake's poetry. We may discuss it at some other time.

      I propose that if Khan sahib quoted Ghalib on the subject of the thread, then I am definitely not upto the level that the quoted lines place one at.

      A very crude translation of Ghalib's line could be:

      Why is the time erasing  my name? I am such a letter that will never again be written on the tablet of the universe.

      Another meaning will be, "Why is this epoch annihilating me, I am the one the like of which will never be created again".Here one can also conjure up the Loh e Mahfooz. And the extended meaning will become that even God will not create some one like me again, because he created me in perfection.

      Now it goes without saying that Ghalb's lines evoke many metaphors and allusions, and one can spend huge amount of time before even one begins to understand the meaning.

      You may now confirm that any crude or sublime meaning of Ghalib's line do not suit the subject of this thread, and that is me, and I am the declared idiot and rightfully remain one.

      I end with another sublime verse from the master:

      Hum kahaaN kay daana thhay , kis hunar meiN yakta thhay
      Bat sabab huuaa Ghalib, dushman asmaaN apna.

      Cheers. Munir


    • Akhtar Ali Khan
      Amir Jafri sahib, I am most grateful for your magnanimity. Needless for me to say but I have great respect for you and your work. It was my shortcoming, and
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 1, 2009
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               Amir Jafri sahib,  I am most grateful for your magnanimity.  Needless for me to say but I
        have great respect for you and your work.  It was my shortcoming, and I am sorry.

        Best regards


        From: Amir Jafri <amirj5@...>
        To: Forum Writers <writers_forum@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 12:20:58
        Subject: RE: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

         


         I am sorry, Akhtar Saahb, if I hurt your feelings. Really am. Beyond that, I don't think it will be fruitful for us to continue this strain of to-and-fro: We are really talking in different languages; it will be probably easier if we could talk face-to-face to find a common and useful space in the arena of aesthetics and meaning, but this English thing, I am sure, will not help.
         
        Again, I consider you a venerable presence of this forum and would beg forgiveness if your feelings were hurt. However, even though I am not an authority on Ghalib, please know that your interpretation of the famous line really breezed by me.


        To: Writers_Forum@ yahoogroups. com
        From: naj241@yahoo. co.uk
        Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 07:55:21 -0700
        Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

         
                With due respect, Amir Jafri sahib,  if according to you, expressing one's own thoughts (relative to
        Ghalib or Mohammad) is absurd, so pray tell me what other people (including writers like you) are
        indulging in?
                You, of course, sir, are "crossing a boundary" which I refuse to follow.
        So, let it be. 
                Not withstanding the above, I have suggested several times to the moderator that if he does not like
        my submissions, he is at liberty to expunge my privilege  to submit.
        Regards


        From: Amir Jafri <amirj5@hotmail. com>
        To: Forum Writers <writers_forum@ yahoogroups. com>; munir saami <munirsaami@yahoo. com>
        Sent: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009 22:55:00
        Subject: RE: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

         

        Apart from the sheer absurdity of this response, I like the idea behind the assumption that if we preface some personal claim with "as Ghalib said," or "as Mohammad said." we can pretty much state whatever we want to with the hubris of "my own statement," in spite of yielding (or claiming) that Urdu poetry (or "religion," for that matter) is "beyond my field of expertise."
         
        Saami Saahb, (with due respect) is is not mere idiocy; the beauty of Safirish alliteration of "knit" and "nit" notwithstanding, we are touching the sublime here. Whatever happened to the forum editing?
         


        To: Writers_Forum@ yahoogroups. com
        From: naj241@yahoo. co.uk
        Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:23:32 +0000
        Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

         
               With due respect, this is both knit and nit picking.  I wrote, "as Ghalib said"
        but the rest is my own statement.  Urdu literature is beyond my field of expertise
        and as such I seek indulgence of learned people like you.


        From: Amir Jafri <amirj5@hotmail. com>
        To: Forum Writers <writers_forum@ yahoogroups. com>
        Sent: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009 13:48:34
        Subject: RE: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

         

         I have heard about the "loh-e-jahaaN pay harf-e-mukkarrar naheeN hooN meiN," but please enlighten about this "...part of the alphabet" reference.



        To: Writers_Forum@ yahoogroups. com
        From: naj241@yahoo. co.uk
        Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:14:54 +0000
        Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

         
              With due respect, Saami sahib, I always believe that there are better and lesser people than I am: the better ones
        don't care whether I alive or dead, the lesser ones are jealous, and hence hate me because they neither make the effort
        nor have the courage to achieve what I have attained.
               Further, as Ghalib said: "I am not a part of the alphabet"  --- my coming and going isn't going to impact the Universe

        Best regards


        From: Munir Pervaiz (Saami) <munirsaami@yahoo. com>
        To: Writers_Forum <writers_forum@ yahoogroups. com>
        Sent: Wednesday, 30 September, 2009 11:44:37
        Subject: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

         
        Friends,

        Just wanted to share the following from one member, who is unfortunately no more: It is a day in the life of a moderator. BTW, all the messages except one were copied tro me.

        I am lucky that as compared to many other Pakistani groups, we have the least amount if abuse.

        And I believe that one reason for the lesser abuse is that our group is moderated.

        Senders are advised by Yahoo that their message will be moderated.
        Highlights are mine. I have no problem in being an IDIOT is the group remains SANE. Cheers.
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------

        "saami sahib has taken my ability to post messages while I am still receiving mails from the group. 

        what an idiot!!!

        world is a strange place. 

        he appearantly did not like that I send mails and do not read all the mails on the forum. 
         
        just imagine that if this idiot was in an authority position in Pakistan?

        making sole decisions based on whatever is in his head. 

        idiots like him gives me bitter taste in my mouth. regardless of their age. 


        I probably will sign off completely from that forum once a computer is available.  I have no time for idiotic games.
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -------

        again people like him, regardless of their age, lose my respect. 

        I moderate a list. I know that u can set up someone to only receive mails and not be able to send any messages. 

        please read the yahoo message came to me. 

        anyways can not waste anymore time on this.  

        reading  adult's messages before "releasing " is also idiotic and not expected from someone living in free society.
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -------
        saami sahib is an idiot.  I have had haters before. unfortunately this idiot has control over things. 

        Pakistan is so behind because intolerant idiots r in authority position.  
        zia too was a stupid dictator who enforced with force what he thought was right like this guy saami.
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----


        "he is intolerant idiot. 
        I just wanted to know who he was. "
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -----


        ------"The dirtiest book of all is the expurgated book." ~Walt Whitman



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      • Akhtar Ali Khan
        With due respect, Saami sahib, I wasn t translating Ghalib s stanza, but I was citing it as a metaphor, concerning my life and work on the planet (I have
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 1, 2009
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              With due respect, Saami sahib,  I wasn't translating Ghalib's stanza, but I was citing it as a metaphor,
          concerning my life and work on the planet (I have tried to clarify it in a response to Naqvi sahib).
               I feel like an idiot for causing grief, but then again my expertise, as you know, lies somewhere
          else.

          Regards


          From: Munir Pervaiz (Saami) <munirsaami@...>
          To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, 1 October, 2009 13:31:09
          Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Munir Saami is an Idiot

           


          Hello Friends,

          There have been some comments on Akhtar Khan sahib's paraphrasing of one of Ghalib's most sublime lines. It is the sublimity and the perceived shattering of that sublime that has probably caused some very just anxiety here.

          I am commenting only because the subject of the thread has been, "Munir Saami is an Idiot". It was on this subject that Akhtar sahib paraphrased with his translation of Ghalib's :

          Ya rab zamaana mujh ko mitaata hay kis liyay
          Loh e JahaaN pay Harf e Mukarrar nahiN hooN meiN

          The difficulty with Ghalib and English language is that, we do not have decent Ghalib translations into English. I would like to note here that I have occasionally found similar thoughts as expressed by Ghalib, in Blake's poetry. We may discuss it at some other time.

          I propose that if Khan sahib quoted Ghalib on the subject of the thread, then I am definitely not upto the level that the quoted lines place one at.

          A very crude translation of Ghalib's line could be:

          Why is the time erasing  my name? I am such a letter that will never again be written on the tablet of the universe.

          Another meaning will be, "Why is this epoch annihilating me, I am the one the like of which will never be created again".Here one can also conjure up the Loh e Mahfooz. And the extended meaning will become that even God will not create some one like me again, because he created me in perfection.

          Now it goes without saying that Ghalb's lines evoke many metaphors and allusions, and one can spend huge amount of time before even one begins to understand the meaning.

          You may now confirm that any crude or sublime meaning of Ghalib's line do not suit the subject of this thread, and that is me, and I am the declared idiot and rightfully remain one.

          I end with another sublime verse from the master:

          Hum kahaaN kay daana thhay , kis hunar meiN yakta thhay
          Bat sabab huuaa Ghalib, dushman asmaaN apna.

          Cheers. Munir



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