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Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

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  • Munir Pervaiz
    Hello Shahid Sb/Koraivi Sb., A clarification is due. I have not retreated, though the perception may have been. The mention of my routine was metaphorical. All
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 30, 2004
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      Hello Shahid Sb/Koraivi Sb.,

      A clarification is due. I have not retreated, though the perception
      may have been. The mention of my routine was metaphorical. All of
      the friends will find me sound on the principles that I stand for.
      And these are for the emancipation and enlightenment of Muslims.

      Best regards. Munir



      --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Shahid Mahmud" <smahmud@q...>
      wrote:
      > Dear Readers,
      >
      > This is so typical of Islamists - including the so
      called 'liberal' type. A little prick and the Muslim apologist
      bursts in anger. How dare you!
      >
      > Grudgingly he guards he sensual side of the theology but when you
      point out the logical conclusion from it, that is effrontery - an
      act of a horrid beast.
      >
      > Reminds me of a very famous book in Urdu which is not only
      advertised on the back of other books and magazine, once countless
      Pakistani brick and concrete facades were littered with
      advertisement for the book. The book is titled: "Maut Ka Manzar
      Marnay Key Ba'ad Kia Ho Ga", essentially "What it would be death
      like after dying." A female cousin of mine read it and then
      mentioned it to me. I borrowed it from her to read and then returned
      it without delving much into the contents with the exception that it
      contains 'shameless' stuff.
      >
      > Indeed there is no enormity big enough to describe what is
      contained in the Islamic books concerning human sexuality, that too
      primarily male dominated. So for some to take offense from this post
      from Mr. Munir is beyond reason. Indeed it is hypocritical.
      >
      > I know the reason.
      >
      > Muslim apologists are very protective of their religion. Outwardly
      they defend the sanitized version of Islam while jealously
      protecting the questionable and condemnable side. Munir Sahib
      touched a nerve, an act which a Muslim does not expect from a fellow
      Muslim. No wonder Munir Sahib obliged and before he is branded a
      heretic by the pious, he relented by listing his daily routine
      before he goes to bed.
      >
      > The article in question began with a verse from the Quran. The
      Muslim apologists should ask themselves - where does this stuff come
      from. Maryam in the story picked it up from where? Isn't this in the
      Quran that men of the paradise would get virgins? So why are Muslims
      ashamed of bearing the consequence of the Quranic 'glad tidings'? If
      the 'Holy Book' contains clear references further butteressed by
      other elements of the Muslim theology, why pick on this article?
      >
      > Here is my routine before I go to sleep. I floss and clean my
      teeth. Read few pages of a book which is enough to bring on sweet
      dreams after half an hour or sooner. My God does not need prayer in
      Arabic so we talk in our native language of choice of that night -
      Urdu, English or Punjabi. I basically thank Him for all the good
      things in life. Of course, had I been a destitute, I would have been
      complaining. I am no hypocrite like most Muslims are.
      >
      > I commend Munir Sahib for posting the article but I do not support
      his retreat.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Shahid Mahmud
    • Khalid Bin Umar
      Attn: Mr.Shahid Mahmud About Niyaz Fatehpuri - For your information since its inception Nigar played a big role in ridiculing the religion and making mockery
      Message 2 of 23 , May 1 1:23 AM
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        Attn: Mr.Shahid Mahmud
         
        About  Niyaz Fatehpuri - 
         
        For your information since its inception Nigar played a big role in ridiculing the religion and making mockery of Dozakh ,Jannah, etc. Its not easy to provide each and every referece .It is advised to go through the archives of NIGAR and see yourself.
         
        But for examples please see his view regarding Eesa (Jesus) Alaihessaalm.Contrary to confirmed Islamic belief that He (Jesus AS) will return , Niyaz made his way as following:-       
         
         . Niyaz Fatehpuri writes:
        "Thirty-eight years ago I wrote in detail in Nigar that it is clearly proved from the Divine word that he (Jesus) died his natural death."

        (Monthly Nigar, Lucknow, India, June 1961)

        Regarding his last love towards Ahmadiya Jamat, Qadiyanis , Please find below his words in praise of this jamat and Mirza.

        1. �Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib came to the defense of Islam at a time when even the greatest scholar of the Faith could not dare to confront the opponents.�

          (Monthly Nigar, Lucknow, India, October 1960)

        2. �What I have studied so far of the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, and not only me but anyone who studies his life and character sincerely and truthfully, will have to concede that he was a lover of the Holy Prophet, in the true sense, and had within him a sincere urge for the cause of Islam.�

          (ibid., July 1960)

        3. In a subsequent issue of the same monthly, the following comment appears about Hazrat Mirza:

          �I found him to be a believer in the finality of prophethood, and a lover of the Holy Prophet in the true sense. When I studied the life of Mirza sahib, I found that he was certainly a very active, resolute and determined man. Having understood the true spirit of religion, he presented the same practical teachings of Islam as are to be found in the time of the Holy Prophet and the early Khalifas.�

          (ibid., November 1961)

        4.  Regarding his love for erotica.....It cannot be understood without going through His shortstories, articles in nigar, his answers in Nigar................ He produced a special Number in probably in 1932  " SHAHWAANIYAAT (Erotica) " at a time when this was almost unimaginable for an Indian Magazine to do this................Later on he transformed this into a book TARGHEEBAT E JINSI ,I am sure no other contemporary of Niyaz indulged in these activities.......There is a lot more to prove that was a promoter of sensuality and vulgarity........ But to me this is sufficient..............................

        5. I don't want to make Niyaz Fatehpuri a laughing stock at this forum after 30 years of his death. Despite of the above flaws. Urdu Adab will always be indebted to him and no one can ignore Niyaz sb while writing the history of urdu literature........He served Urdu for half a century and his monthly NIGAR was considered to be the most prolific and updated magazine of his time....Even the bittermost enemy of Niyaz can not ignore his works........ I always abstain from condemning anybody who is no more now. but to reply Mr.Shahid Mahmud it was necessary......

        6. After this I don't need any explanation and clarification and please don't expect any response regarding to Niyaz sb. anymore

        7. All the readers on this forum have some more important jobs to accomplish and not only doing of no use typ expostulations.

        Thanks & Regards

        Khalid Bin Umar

        ___________________________________________________________

        Shahid Mahmud <smahmud@...> wrote:
        Dear Readers,
         
        I am asking Mr. Khalid Bin Umar to provide references for his following allegations:
         
        (4)At last he inclined towards ahmidiaya (qadiyani jammat) and donated the whole of life time collection of books to ahmadiya jammat and praised Ghulam ahmad qadiani as aashiq e rasool .

         (5)Was Very interested in publishing matters related to erotica��� always most prompt editor of his times.Very genrous in putting ifnormaion regaridng sexuality....you can say vulgarity...........

        Regards,

        Shahid Mahmud

         

         

        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 1:11 PM
        Subject: Re: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

         Dear Mr.Munir � As salam o alaekum 

        Let us start with Ghalib!  

        Main bhi munh mein zaban rakhta hooon

        Kash poochho ki muddua kya  hai ! ! ! ! ! !

        I still seek your pardon for not understanding the motive behind the publicizing of this sc called wakeup �group. I expected a clear cut answer from you�..keeping in view your  and open hearted ness in publishing and introducing the so called wake up.

         As a moderator I think you have done the best for these so called wake up group. They are sleeping and made you wake up��.You have done more than required�. Why do you say I should not indulge too much���..you are not indulged �.you are submerged����..don�t lament for that. 

        What kind of dogmatic inhibitions are you talking about? Should we ask you what should our Muslim Ummah should do with this regards ��Please give clear cut plan and advise us how to get rid of this � DOGMATIC INHIBITIONS� ���.I await your suggestions.You must clarify what are these inhibitions��.. 

        What Niaz Fatehpuri has to do with wakeup muslims��.? And this issue���

         (1)Was niaz fatehpuri an authority on any subject�or he is regarded somewhat like that���..

        (2)Niaz , a person,,who started his Nigaaar , ridiculing , quran , hadith, jannat, dozakh, allah SWT ,,,,,,,,,

         (3)Niaz who at one place stated that quran e majeed is authored by Muhammad Sallahlahu alaihe wasallam ? (Nigar June 1940)

         (4)At last he inclined towards ahmidiaya (qadiyani jammat) and donated the whole of life time collection of books to ahmadiya jammat and praised Ghulam ahmad qadiani as aashiq e rasool .

         (5)Was Very interested in publishing matters related to erotica��� always most prompt editor of his times.Very genrous in putting ifnormaion regaridng sexuality....you can say vulgarity...........

        What should I learn from him����.I think the last point���.is required by you.

        Now come to mathnavi of Maulana Rome Rahmatullah alaihe

        From the whole collection of the Mathnavi you got this single couplet to prove your point?

        I can put the remaining of the whole of mathnawi in support of my point? What do you say? If I ask you to put before the world the whole mathanvi as it is with its coomentary ............These wake up people will turn agaisnt you......I am sure.... 

        I am at a loss to understand what lack Islam has shown regarding sexuality etc. what is the lacunae which needs to be fulfilled..What kind of denial is there �����strange really strange�������.to find that Muslims deny and are lacking only in these matters?

        I am justified in asking the forum Is this the real issue of Muslims or Humanity to discuss at this juncture�����. 

        Is this the only problem, which after being discussed would save the humanity�������. 

        Munir sb. Why did you gave an account of your daily routine at night? What impression do you want to give us. Did we ever suspect you that you are not a practicing Muslim���..It was so nice to know about your routine. Please keep it up���May Allah give the same taufeeq of reciting the same surah and QUl and tasbeeh to the people of Wakeup.com also so that they are protected at night from  bad dreams about Islam and sexuality. 

        If this discussion leaves us without any message and paigham,I think we are really wasting our energy and time���If we are so much open minded in discussing these issue why don�t we give clear cut advises and suggestions for the readers�������. Or it was just a pebble thrown in the water ����to disturb the people on the forum����������.

         At last I would put some lines of Allama Iqbal ��. 

        Ishq o Masti ka janaza hai takhayyul un ka

        In ke andesha e tareek hain qaumon ke mazar

        Chashm e adam se chhupatey hain maqamat e buland

        Kartey hain rooh ko khwabeeda , badan ko bedaar

        Hind ke shair o soorat garo afsana navees

        Ah Becharon ke asaab per aurat hai sawaar

         

        2

        Andesha hua shokiy e afkar pe majboor

        Farsooda tareeqo se zamana hua bezaar

        Insaan ki hawas ne jinhe rakha tha chhipa kar

        Khultey nazar aatey hain ba tadreej wo asrar

         Qur;aan mein ho ghotazan ai mard e musalman     

        Allah kare tujh ko   ata    jiddat e kirdar ! ! !

        Was salaam,

        With best regards,

        KHALID BIN UMAR

        INDIA

        P.S � Yes , Late Hakeem Israr Ahmad Koraivi was the brother of my Great Grand Father  Late Dr. Azam Koraivi  , famous afsana nigaar and a contemporary of Niyaz Fatehpuri. Except my father the whole of our family is in Pakistan��We live in India���.Any way it was so pleasing to get your introduction��.that added  a lot to your regard���. With kindest regards, Khalid Bin Umar

        _______________________________________________________

         

         

         


        As a moderators I should not indulge too much with others' opinions.

        I will quote the following from Ghalib (Knowing that a friend will
        correct me ;-), and present it to Koraivi Sb.

        yaarab ! wo na samjhe haiN na samjheNge meree baat
        de  aur  dil  unko, jo  na de  mujhko  zubaaN  aur

        (My Lord, The have not and will not understand what I say
        Please bless them with a different heart, if you can not bless me
        with fresher langue)

        Koraivi Sahib, It is the dogmatic inhibition that sends us to the
        societies of Eunuchs.

        I am surprised that you read Niaz Fatehpuri and still question the
        motives!

        To close my ramblings I will quote from Maulana Rum's Masnavi. And
        then leave it on you to decide if Nauz Billah (WE seek Allah's
        protection),  He was a Zindeeq (Cursed one):

        Zan Badast e Mard dar waqt e Liqa
        Cho Khamir Ayad Ba dast e Naan Ba.
        ( A woman in the hands of a man during intercourse
        Is like dough in the hands of a Baker)

        Would you allow me to share it in Public?

        Al Hamdo Lillah I have been trying to read Maulana's Masnavi every
        night in Persian before I go to sleep, when I have finished my Ayatul
        Kursi, and Quls, and Tasbeeh!

        And every day I surrender my matters and my questioning to My Lord!
        Only he is the Judge of the Motives.

        BTW have your registered your opinions at the Muslim Wake Up. If not,
        you may be lacking in your duty to Allah.

        Thanks and regards. Munir

        P.S.
        Koraivi Sb., Are you a relative of Hakim Israr Ahmad Koraivi? He was
        my beloved Ustaad. He was the father of late Zuhair Akram Nadeem, a
        member of Pakistan's legislatures)
        ------------------------------

        --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Khalid Bin Umar
        <khalidkoraivi@y...> wrote:
        > Dear Munir Sb.

        > Naql e Kufr Kufr na Bashad.-------- Do you think we are living a
        Momin 's Life ? Do you think that we are living something like a
        Momin and not like a Kafir ? Naql e kufr is the theme of today's
        muslim. Who is doing Naql e Kufr......In fact we have gone far more
        away from your required Naql and we are doing Asl Kufr ......Isnt
        that enough.? Do we want more than that ?

        > That was my question last time as to what message this so called
        muslim wakeup ( Or muslim go to sleep)  website is trying to give us ?

        > What should we do ? What they require of us? What the whole Ummah
        shuold do now after reading their remarkable obsence and beautifully
        made dirty articles there.....................

        > I am ready to follow provided it is islamic ........because
        everything presented there is very cunningly in the name of
        islam........i want to know what message they want to give to
        us........I dont want to waste my time....i want to do that
        one.....what should I do....................

        > 2. I would appreciate to know what is Mental Masturbation" and the
        issues that are real to Muslims and humanity. ? Can you plese
        elaborate........?

        > 3.What do you mean by " Our denial of sexuality and its impact on
        Humans leads to a society of Eunuchs. And the assumption here is that
        Muslims are Human. " I need some examples of this
        denial .........with proof.

        > 4.i have read Niaz Fatehpuri very well.......what do you want me to
        learn from him ?

        > Thanks a Lot

        > Khalid Bin Umar
        >





         


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      • Khalid Bin Umar
        Dear Readers, I am asking Mr.Shahid Mahmud to tell us point wise what should muslims do now ? You see he has wasted a lot of time in writing so many
        Message 3 of 23 , May 1 1:37 AM
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          Dear Readers,
           
          I am asking Mr.Shahid Mahmud to tell us point wise what should muslims do now ?
           
          You see he has wasted a lot of time in writing so many lines......below but at the last everybody is empty handed and fail to understand the message.
           
          I am asking Mr.Mahmud to lay down some rules and priniciples in order to rectify the errors of Islam and Muslims on this subject ....Point wise.............. and dont indulge in futile discussions...
           
          Just let me know what we should do now....what reforms are required.....what changes in thoughts and actions you expect of us ??? That's all.
           
          Islam is not a jumble house for everybody to play with him ........Just tell what Islam and what kind of muslims you need .But the answer should be pointwise and practical to be put into practice from today itself (if it is so).
           
          Thanks & Regards
           
          Khalid Bin Umar


          Shahid Mahmud <smahmud@...> wrote:
          Dear Readers,
           
          This is so typical of Islamists - including the so called 'liberal' type. A little prick and the Muslim apologist bursts in anger. How dare you!
           
          Grudgingly he guards he sensual side of the theology but when you point out the logical conclusion from it, that is effrontery - an act of a horrid beast.
           
          Reminds me of a very famous book in Urdu which is not only advertised on the back of other books and magazine, once countless Pakistani brick and concrete facades were littered with advertisement for the book. The book is titled: "Maut Ka Manzar Marnay Key Ba'ad Kia Ho Ga", essentially "What it would be death like after dying." A female cousin of mine read it and then mentioned it to me. I borrowed it from her to read and then returned it without delving much into the contents with the exception that it contains 'shameless' stuff.
           
          Indeed there is no enormity big enough to describe what is contained in the Islamic books concerning human sexuality, that too primarily male dominated. So for some to take offense from this post from Mr. Munir is beyond reason. Indeed it is hypocritical.
           
          I know the reason.
           
          Muslim apologists are very protective of their religion. Outwardly they defend the sanitized version of Islam while jealously protecting the questionable and condemnable side. Munir Sahib touched a nerve, an act which a Muslim does not expect from a fellow Muslim. No wonder Munir Sahib obliged and before he is branded a heretic by the pious, he relented by listing his daily routine before he goes to bed.
           
          The article in question began with a verse from the Quran. The Muslim apologists should ask themselves - where does this stuff come from. Maryam in the story picked it up from where? Isn't this in the Quran that men of the paradise would get virgins? So why are Muslims ashamed of bearing the consequence of the Quranic 'glad tidings'? If the 'Holy Book' contains clear references further butteressed by other elements of the Muslim theology, why pick on this article?
           
          Here is my routine before I go to sleep. I floss and clean my teeth. Read few pages of a book which is enough to bring on sweet dreams after half an hour or sooner. My God does not need prayer in Arabic so we talk in our native language of choice of that night - Urdu, English or Punjabi. I basically thank Him for all the good things in life. Of course, had I been a destitute, I would have been complaining. I am no hypocrite like most Muslims are.
           
          I commend Munir Sahib for posting the article but I do not support his retreat.
           
          Regards,
           
          Shahid Mahmud
           
           
           


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        • Rashid Mughal
          Dear Khalid Bin Umar & friends of Writers Forum: I feel certain the moderator of this forum, our friend and host Munir Pervaiz, is utterly speechless when he
          Message 4 of 23 , May 1 10:12 AM
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            Dear Khalid Bin Umar & friends of Writers’ Forum:

             

            I feel certain the moderator of this forum, our friend and host Munir Pervaiz, is utterly speechless when he is ever so vulnerable to all kinds of attacks from the defenders of the faith.

             

            I feel a person in his situation must suffer the fangs of rejection when some people bark rude insults and boastfully declare they wish to be dropped from the List-Serv.    

             

            I feel certain there’s something wrong with the way we see things. We see them only one way: it’s my way—or the highway.

             

            Take a hike, folks.

             

            I feel we differ, sometimes vehemently and violently, because each of us is at a different level of growth in our physical and mental growth and in our religious and spiritual evolution. Our religious beliefs, of course, have much to do with the way we interpret the realities that surround us in the sea of life, given the patterns of behaviourism that we’ve witnessed on this forum from time to time.

             

            Out of habit, generally speaking, we tend to shoot the messenger without due consideration for the message.

             

            I feel perturbed that much the same thing happened to Muhammad when he opened his mouth to propagate the truth he had realized, which is crystallized in what we know today as Islam. The prophet had to run for his life, and we Muslims mark our calendars from that moment on.

             

            The Meccans of that time were not ready to accept a new message from what their forefathers had been receiving; moreover, it is so much easier to shoot the messenger than to change the way we see things. No one wants to change, even if we talk about the sea of change all around us all the time.  

             

            I feel perturbed that some latter-day Meccans have dropped from this forum just because the moderator sent us a link about which we may have been ignorant, or because the contents of a story were so saucy, coming, as they did, from a woman on the mat in the mosque with her heart in her crotch.

             

            That woman is asking a legitimate question about which the imams are in denial. But never mind. The point is that that website is a vibrant reality of the times, and Muslim and non-Muslim alike should see it as a necessary evil.

             

            I feel we cannot bury our heads in the sand like an ostrich to shut out the world.

             

            The world is within us—unless we are in denial.

             

            Here’s my question to all of you: Can we see a thing for what it is; that is, without demanding what it should be?

             

            As always,

            Rashid Mughal

             

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            From: Khalid Bin Umar [mailto:khalidkoraivi@...]
            Sent
            : Friday, April 30, 2004 2:11 PM
            To: Munir Pervaiz
            Cc: writers_forum@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

             

             Dear Mr.Munir  As salam o alaekum 

            Let us start with Ghalib!  

            Main bhi munh mein zaban rakhta hooon

            Kash poochho ki muddua kya  hai ! ! ! ! ! !

            I still seek your pardon for not understanding the motive behind the publicizing of this sc called wakeup group. I expected a clear cut answer from you..keeping in view your  and open hearted ness in publishing and introducing the so called wake up.

             As a moderator I think you have done the best for these so called wake up group. They are sleeping and made you wake up.You have done more than required. Why do you say I should not indulge too much..you are not indulged .you are submerged..dont lament for that. 

            What kind of dogmatic inhibitions are you talking about? Should we ask you what should our Muslim Ummah should do with this regards Please give clear cut plan and advise us how to get rid of this  DOGMATIC INHIBITIONS .I await your suggestions.You must clarify what are these inhibitions.. 

            What Niaz Fatehpuri has to do with wakeup muslims.? And this issue

             (1)Was niaz fatehpuri an authority on any subjector he is regarded somewhat like that..

            (2)Niaz , a person,,who started his Nigaaar , ridiculing , quran , hadith, jannat, dozakh, allah SWT ,,,,,,,,,

             (3)Niaz who at one place stated that quran e majeed is authored by Muhammad Sallahlahu alaihe wasallam ? (Nigar June 1940)

             (4)At last he inclined towards ahmidiaya (qadiyani jammat) and donated the whole of life time collection of books to ahmadiya jammat and praised Ghulam ahmad qadiani as aashiq e rasool .

             (5)Was Very interested in publishing matters related to erotica always most prompt editor of his times.Very genrous in putting ifnormaion regaridng sexuality....you can say vulgarity...........

            What should I learn from him.I think the last point.is required by you.

            Now come to mathnavi of Maulana Rome Rahmatullah alaihe

            From the whole collection of the Mathnavi you got this single couplet to prove your point?

            I can put the remaining of the whole of mathnawi in support of my point? What do you say? If I ask you to put before the world the whole mathanvi as it is with its coomentary ............These wake up people will turn agaisnt you......I am sure.... 

            I am at a loss to understand what lack Islam has shown regarding sexuality etc. what is the lacunae which needs to be fulfilled..What kind of denial is there strange really strange.to find that Muslims deny and are lacking only in these matters?

            I am justified in asking the forum Is this the real issue of Muslims or Humanity to discuss at this juncture. 

            Is this the only problem, which after being discussed would save the humanity. 

            Munir sb. Why did you gave an account of your daily routine at night? What impression do you want to give us. Did we ever suspect you that you are not a practicing Muslim..It was so nice to know about your routine. Please keep it upMay Allah give the same taufeeq of reciting the same surah and QUl and tasbeeh to the people of Wakeup.com also so that they are protected at night from  bad dreams about Islam and sexuality. 

            If this discussion leaves us without any message and paigham,I think we are really wasting our energy and timeIf we are so much open minded in discussing these issue why dont we give clear cut advises and suggestions for the readers. Or it was just a pebble thrown in the water to disturb the people on the forum.

             At last I would put some lines of Allama Iqbal

            Ishq o Masti ka janaza hai takhayyul un ka

            In ke andesha e tareek hain qaumon ke mazar

             

            Chashm e adam se chhupatey hain maqamat e buland

            Kartey hain rooh ko khwabeeda , badan ko bedaar

             

            Hind ke shair o soorat garo afsana navees

            Ah Becharon ke asaab per aurat hai sawaar

             

            2

            Andesha hua shokiy e afkar pe majboor

            Farsooda tareeqo se zamana hua bezaar

            Insaan ki hawas ne jinhe rakha tha chhipa kar

            Khultey nazar aatey hain ba tadreej wo asrar

             Qur;aan mein ho ghotazan ai mard e musalman 

            Allah kare tujh ko   ata    jiddat e kirdar ! ! !

             

            Was salaam,

             

            With best regards,

            KHALID BIN UMAR

            INDIA

            P.S  Yes , Late Hakeem Israr Ahmad Koraivi was the brother of my Great Grand Father  Late Dr. Azam Koraivi  , famous afsana nigaar and a contemporary of Niyaz Fatehpuri. Except my father the whole of our family is in Pakistan We live in India .Any way it was so pleasing to get your introduction.that added  a lot to your regard. With kindest regards, Khalid Bin Umar

            _______________________________________________________

             

             

             


            As a moderators I should not indulge too much with others' opinions.

            I will quote the following from Ghalib (Knowing that a friend will
            correct
            me ;-), and present it to Koraivi Sb.


            yaarab ! wo na samjhe haiN na samjheNge meree baat
            de  aur  dil  unko, jo  na de  mujhko  zubaaN  aur

            (My Lord, The have not and will not understand what I say
            Please bless them with a different heart, if you can not bless me
            with
            fresher langue)


            Koraivi Sahib, It is the dogmatic inhibition that sends us to the
            societies
            of Eunuchs.


            I am surprised that you read Niaz Fatehpuri and still question the
            motives
            !


            To close my ramblings I will quote from Maulana Rum's Masnavi. And
            then
            leave it on you to decide if Nauz Billah (WE seek Allah's

            protection),  He was a Zindeeq (Cursed one):

            Zan Badast e Mard dar waqt e Liqa
            Cho Khamir Ayad Ba dast e Naan Ba.
            ( A woman in the hands of a man during intercourse
            Is like dough in the hands of a Baker)

            Would you allow me to share it in Public?

            Al Hamdo Lillah I have been trying to read Maulana's Masnavi every
            night
            in Persian before I go to sleep, when I have finished my Ayatul

            Kursi, and Quls, and Tasbeeh!

            And every day I surrender my matters and my questioning to My Lord!
            Only he is the Judge of the Motives.

            BTW have your registered your opinions at the Muslim Wake Up. If not,
            you
            may be lacking in your duty to Allah.


            Thanks and regards. Munir

            P.S.
            Koraivi Sb., Are you a relative of Hakim Israr Ahmad Koraivi? He was
            my
            beloved Ustaad. He was the father of late Zuhair Akram Nadeem, a
            member
            of Pakistan 's legislatures)

            ------------------------------

            --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Khalid Bin Umar
            <
            khalidkoraivi@y...> wrote:

            > Dear Munir Sb.

            > Naql e Kufr Kufr na Bashad.-------- Do you think we are living a
            Momin 's Life ? Do you think that we are living something like a
            Momin
            and not like a

            (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

          • Shahid Mahmud
            Dear Readers, The intent of my asking the questions was to see how bad Niaz Fatehpoori was. In Mr. Umar s own words, there was much good in him and he feels
            Message 5 of 23 , May 2 8:37 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Readers,
               
              The intent of my asking the questions was to see how 'bad' Niaz Fatehpoori was. In Mr. Umar's own words, there was much good in him and he feels very uncomfortable going all out against him. Mr. Umar should take this matter up with the souls and persons of Manazir Gilani, Abdul Majid Daryabadi, Saluaiman Nadawi et al who pretty much declared Mr. Fatehpoori an 'apostate.'
               
              Personally, I agree with Fatehpuri's critics that his views were well outside the mainstream Islam. Unless and until you believe in the folklore in the Quran to be from God, you are not a Muslim. He was of the view that these stories were added by Mohammed to make a point and the fact that the Quran was written by Mohammed himself, the view makes all the more sense. My understanding is that this view of Quran being a 'Word of God' in the most literal sense, is so dogmatic in Islam now, it is foolish to question it and still claim to be a Muslim. After all, it is the majority which decides if you belong to it (or its religion) or not.
               
              What little Umar Sb. finds wrong with Niza is not that bad after all. Let me shed some further light on it.
               
              1. The return of Jesus Christ, a Christian belief which is mythical in itself has been a major controversy among Muslim scholars as well. If Niza Fathepuri is to be accused of "ridiculing" Islam by holding this view, he is in the company of people like Iqbal, Tamaana Ummadi Phulwari, Ubaidullah Sindhi and Habibur Rahman Kandhalwi very well known mainstream Muslim scholars.
               
              2. As I pointed out in my previous post, Islamic theology itself is full of "erotica" though Muslim do not admit it. However, whenever someone points it out in a apparent negative way describing it as a flaw in Islam, he or she is accused of 'taking it out of context.' Mr. Umar should read 'Maut Ka Manzar' before accusing Mr. Fathepuri of doing an unheard of things.
               
              3. Niaz Fatepuri's impression of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is not so outlandish considering many of his Muslim contemporaries acknowledged his almost unrivaled knowledge of both Christianity and Islam in terms of comparative religion. Mr. Ahmed began his career with debates with the Christian missionaries trying to convert Muslims to Christianity in India at that time.
               
              Regards,
               
              Shahid Mahmud
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 3:23 AM
              Subject: Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

              Attn: Mr.Shahid Mahmud
               
              About  Niyaz Fatehpuri - 
               
              For your information since its inception Nigar played a big role in ridiculing the religion and making mockery of Dozakh ,Jannah, etc. Its not easy to provide each and every referece .It is advised to go through the archives of NIGAR and see yourself.
               
              But for examples please see his view regarding Eesa (Jesus) Alaihessaalm.Contrary to confirmed Islamic belief that He (Jesus AS) will return , Niyaz made his way as following:-       
               
               . Niyaz Fatehpuri writes:
              "Thirty-eight years ago I wrote in detail in Nigar that it is clearly proved from the Divine word that he (Jesus) died his natural death."

              (Monthly Nigar, Lucknow, India, June 1961)

              Regarding his last love towards Ahmadiya Jamat, Qadiyanis , Please find below his words in praise of this jamat and Mirza.

              1. “Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib came to the defense of Islam at a time when even the greatest scholar of the Faith could not dare to confront the opponents.”

                (Monthly Nigar, Lucknow, India, October 1960)

              2. “What I have studied so far of the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, and not only me but anyone who studies his life and character sincerely and truthfully, will have to concede that he was a lover of the Holy Prophet, in the true sense, and had within him a sincere urge for the cause of Islam.”

                (ibid., July 1960)

              3. In a subsequent issue of the same monthly, the following comment appears about Hazrat Mirza:

                “I found him to be a believer in the finality of prophethood, and a lover of the Holy Prophet in the true sense. When I studied the life of Mirza sahib, I found that he was certainly a very active, resolute and determined man. Having understood the true spirit of religion, he presented the same practical teachings of Islam as are to be found in the time of the Holy Prophet and the early Khalifas

                (ibid., November 1961)

              4.  Regarding his love for erotica.....It cannot be understood without going through His shortstories, articles in nigar, his answers in Nigar................ He produced a special Number in probably in 1932  " SHAHWAANIYAAT (Erotica) " at a time when this was almost unimaginable for an Indian Magazine to do this................Later on he transformed this into a book TARGHEEBAT E JINSI ,I am sure no other contemporary of Niyaz indulged in these activities.......There is a lot more to prove that was a promoter of sensuality and vulgarity........ But to me this is sufficient..............................

              5. I don't want to make Niyaz Fatehpuri a laughing stock at this forum after 30 years of his death. Despite of the above flaws. Urdu Adab will always be indebted to him and no one can ignore Niyaz sb while writing the history of urdu literature........He served Urdu for half a century and his monthly NIGAR was considered to be the most prolific and updated magazine of his time....Even the bittermost enemy of Niyaz can not ignore his works........ I always abstain from condemning anybody who is no more now. but to reply Mr.Shahid Mahmud it was necessary......

              6. After this I don't need any explanation and clarification and please don't expect any response regarding to Niyaz sb. anymore

              7. All the readers on this forum have some more important jobs to accomplish and not only doing of no use typ expostulations.

              Thanks & Regards

              Khalid Bin Umar

              ___________________________________________________________

              Shahid Mahmud <smahmud@...> wrote:
              Dear Readers,
               
              I am asking Mr. Khalid Bin Umar to provide references for his following allegations:
               
              (4)At last he inclined towards ahmidiaya (qadiyani jammat) and donated the whole of life time collection of books to ahmadiya jammat and praised Ghulam ahmad qadiani as aashiq e rasool .

               (5)Was Very interested in publishing matters related to erotica……… always most prompt editor of his times.Very genrous in putting ifnormaion regaridng sexuality....you can say vulgarity...........

              Regards,

              Shahid Mahmud

               

               

              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 1:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

               Dear Mr.Munir – As salam o alaekum 

              Let us start with Ghalib!  

              Main bhi munh mein zaban rakhta hooon

              Kash poochho ki muddua kya  hai ! ! ! ! ! !

              I still seek your pardon for not understanding the motive behind the publicizing of this sc called wakeup …group. I expected a clear cut answer from you…..keeping in view your  and open hearted ness in publishing and introducing the so called wake up.

               As a moderator I think you have done the best for these so called wake up group. They are sleeping and made you wake up…….You have done more than required…. Why do you say I should not indulge too much………..you are not indulged ….you are submerged…………..don’t lament for that. 

              What kind of dogmatic inhibitions are you talking about? Should we ask you what should our Muslim Ummah should do with this regards ……Please give clear cut plan and advise us how to get rid of this “ DOGMATIC INHIBITIONS” ……….I await your suggestions.You must clarify what are these inhibitions…….. 

              What Niaz Fatehpuri has to do with wakeup muslims…….? And this issue………

               (1)Was niaz fatehpuri an authority on any subject…or he is regarded somewhat like that………..

              (2)Niaz , a person,,who started his Nigaaar , ridiculing , quran , hadith, jannat, dozakh, allah SWT ,,,,,,,,,

               (3)Niaz who at one place stated that quran e majeed is authored by Muhammad Sallahlahu alaihe wasallam ? (Nigar June 1940)

               (4)At last he inclined towards ahmidiaya (qadiyani jammat) and donated the whole of life time collection of books to ahmadiya jammat and praised Ghulam ahmad qadiani as aashiq e rasool .

               (5)Was Very interested in publishing matters related to erotica……… always most prompt editor of his times.Very genrous in putting ifnormaion regaridng sexuality....you can say vulgarity...........

              What should I learn from him………….I think the last point……….is required by you.

              Now come to mathnavi of Maulana Rome Rahmatullah alaihe

              From the whole collection of the Mathnavi you got this single couplet to prove your point?

              I can put the remaining of the whole of mathnawi in support of my point? What do you say? If I ask you to put before the world the whole mathanvi as it is with its coomentary ............These wake up people will turn agaisnt you......I am sure.... 

              I am at a loss to understand what lack Islam has shown regarding sexuality etc. what is the lacunae which needs to be fulfilled..What kind of denial is there ……………strange really strange………………….to find that Muslims deny and are lacking only in these matters?

              I am justified in asking the forum Is this the real issue of Muslims or Humanity to discuss at this juncture……………. 

              Is this the only problem, which after being discussed would save the humanity…………………. 

              Munir sb. Why did you gave an account of your daily routine at night? What impression do you want to give us. Did we ever suspect you that you are not a practicing Muslim………..It was so nice to know about your routine. Please keep it up………May Allah give the same taufeeq of reciting the same surah and QUl and tasbeeh to the people of Wakeup.com also so that they are protected at night from  bad dreams about Islam and sexuality. 

              If this discussion leaves us without any message and paigham,I think we are really wasting our energy and time………If we are so much open minded in discussing these issue why don’t we give clear cut advises and suggestions for the readers…………………. Or it was just a pebble thrown in the water …………to disturb the people on the forum………………………….

               At last I would put some lines of Allama Iqbal ……. 

              Ishq o Masti ka janaza hai takhayyul un ka

              In ke andesha e tareek hain qaumon ke mazar

              Chashm e adam se chhupatey hain maqamat e buland

              Kartey hain rooh ko khwabeeda , badan ko bedaar

              Hind ke shair o soorat garo afsana navees

              Ah Becharon ke asaab per aurat hai sawaar

               

              2

              Andesha hua shokiy e afkar pe majboor

              Farsooda tareeqo se zamana hua bezaar

              Insaan ki hawas ne jinhe rakha tha chhipa kar

              Khultey nazar aatey hain ba tadreej wo asrar

               Qur;aan mein ho ghotazan ai mard e musalman     

              Allah kare tujh ko   ata    jiddat e kirdar ! ! !

              Was salaam,

              With best regards,

              KHALID BIN UMAR

              INDIA

              P.S – Yes , Late Hakeem Israr Ahmad Koraivi was the brother of my Great Grand Father  Late Dr. Azam Koraivi  , famous afsana nigaar and a contemporary of Niyaz Fatehpuri. Except my father the whole of our family is in Pakistan……We live in India……….Any way it was so pleasing to get your introduction…….that added  a lot to your regard………. With kindest regards, Khalid Bin Umar

              _______________________________________________________

               

               

               


              As a moderators I should not indulge too much with others' opinions.

              I will quote the following from Ghalib (Knowing that a friend will
              correct me ;-), and present it to Koraivi Sb.

              yaarab ! wo na samjhe haiN na samjheNge meree baat
              de  aur  dil  unko, jo  na de  mujhko  zubaaN  aur

              (My Lord, The have not and will not understand what I say
              Please bless them with a different heart, if you can not bless me
              with fresher langue)

              Koraivi Sahib, It is the dogmatic inhibition that sends us to the
              societies of Eunuchs.

              I am surprised that you read Niaz Fatehpuri and still question the
              motives!

              To close my ramblings I will quote from Maulana Rum's Masnavi. And
              then leave it on you to decide if Nauz Billah (WE seek Allah's
              protection),  He was a Zindeeq (Cursed one):

              Zan Badast e Mard dar waqt e Liqa
              Cho Khamir Ayad Ba dast e Naan Ba.
              ( A woman in the hands of a man during intercourse
              Is like dough in the hands of a Baker)

              Would you allow me to share it in Public?

              Al Hamdo Lillah I have been trying to read Maulana's Masnavi every
              night in Persian before I go to sleep, when I have finished my Ayatul
              Kursi, and Quls, and Tasbeeh!

              And every day I surrender my matters and my questioning to My Lord!
              Only he is the Judge of the Motives.

              BTW have your registered your opinions at the Muslim Wake Up. If not,
              you may be lacking in your duty to Allah.

              Thanks and regards. Munir

              P.S.
              Koraivi Sb., Are you a relative of Hakim Israr Ahmad Koraivi? He was
              my beloved Ustaad. He was the father of late Zuhair Akram Nadeem, a
              member of Pakistan's legislatures)
              ------------------------------

              --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Khalid Bin Umar
              <khalidkoraivi@y...> wrote:
              > Dear Munir Sb.

              > Naql e Kufr Kufr na Bashad.-------- Do you think we are living a
              Momin 's Life ? Do you think that we are living something like a
              Momin and not like a Kafir ? Naql e kufr is the theme of today's
              muslim. Who is doing Naql e Kufr......In fact we have gone far more
              away from your required Naql and we are doing Asl Kufr ......Isnt
              that enough.? Do we want more than that ?

              > That was my question last time as to what message this so called
              muslim wakeup ( Or muslim go to sleep)  website is trying to give us ?

              > What should we do ? What they require of us? What the whole Ummah
              shuold do now after reading their remarkable obsence and beautifully
              made dirty articles there.....................

              > I am ready to follow provided it is islamic ........because
              everything presented there is very cunningly in the name of
              islam........i want to know what message they want to give to
              us........I dont want to waste my time....i want to do that
              one.....what should I do....................

              > 2. I would appreciate to know what is Mental Masturbation" and the
              issues that are real to Muslims and humanity. ? Can you plese
              elaborate........?

              > 3.What do you mean by " Our denial of sexuality and its impact on
              Humans leads to a society of Eunuchs. And the assumption here is that
              Muslims are Human. " I need some examples of this
              denial .........with proof.

              > 4.i have read Niaz Fatehpuri very well.......what do you want me to
              learn from him ?

              > Thanks a Lot

              > Khalid Bin Umar
              >





               


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            • Khawaja Ashraf
              Khalid Bin Umar sahib, You have asked the right kind of question to Mr. Shahid Mahmud. It was a time when Mr. Shahid Mahmud preached that Islam is a MUKAMMAL
              Message 6 of 23 , May 2 10:26 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Khalid Bin Umar sahib,
                 
                You have asked the right kind of question to Mr. Shahid Mahmud. It was a time when Mr. Shahid Mahmud preached that Islam is a MUKAMMAL ZABTA-E-HAYYAT. Let us see how he responds your question.
                 
                K. Ashraf
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Khalid Bin Umar [mailto:khalidkoraivi@...]
                Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:37 AM
                To: Shahid Mahmud
                Cc: writers_forum@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                Dear Readers,
                 
                I am asking Mr.Shahid Mahmud to tell us point wise what should muslims do now ?
                 
                You see he has wasted a lot of time in writing so many lines......below but at the last everybody is empty handed and fail to understand the message.
                 
                I am asking Mr.Mahmud to lay down some rules and priniciples in order to rectify the errors of Islam and Muslims on this subject ....Point wise.............. and dont indulge in futile discussions...
                 
                Just let me know what we should do now....what reforms are required.....what changes in thoughts and actions you expect of us ??? That's all.
                 
                Islam is not a jumble house for everybody to play with him ........Just tell what Islam and what kind of muslims you need .But the answer should be pointwise and practical to be put into practice from today itself (if it is so).
                 
                Thanks & Regards
                 
                Khalid Bin Umar


                Shahid Mahmud <smahmud@...> wrote:
                Dear Readers,
                 
                This is so typical of Islamists - including the so called 'liberal' type. A little prick and the Muslim apologist bursts in anger. How dare you!
                 
                Grudgingly he guards he sensual side of the theology but when you point out the logical conclusion from it, that is effrontery - an act of a horrid beast.
                 
                Reminds me of a very famous book in Urdu which is not only advertised on the back of other books and magazine, once countless Pakistani brick and concrete facades were littered with advertisement for the book. The book is titled: "Maut Ka Manzar Marnay Key Ba'ad Kia Ho Ga", essentially "What it would be death like after dying." A female cousin of mine read it and then mentioned it to me. I borrowed it from her to read and then returned it without delving much into the contents with the exception that it contains 'shameless' stuff.
                 
                Indeed there is no enormity big enough to describe what is contained in the Islamic books concerning human sexuality, that too primarily male dominated. So for some to take offense from this post from Mr. Munir is beyond reason. Indeed it is hypocritical.
                 
                I know the reason.
                 
                Muslim apologists are very protective of their religion. Outwardly they defend the sanitized version of Islam while jealously protecting the questionable and condemnable side. Munir Sahib touched a nerve, an act which a Muslim does not expect from a fellow Muslim. No wonder Munir Sahib obliged and before he is branded a heretic by the pious, he relented by listing his daily routine before he goes to bed.
                 
                The article in question began with a verse from the Quran. The Muslim apologists should ask themselves - where does this stuff come from. Maryam in the story picked it up from where? Isn't this in the Quran that men of the paradise would get virgins? So why are Muslims ashamed of bearing the consequence of the Quranic 'glad tidings'? If the 'Holy Book' contains clear references further butteressed by other elements of the Muslim theology, why pick on this article?
                 
                Here is my routine before I go to sleep. I floss and clean my teeth. Read few pages of a book which is enough to bring on sweet dreams after half an hour or sooner. My God does not need prayer in Arabic so we talk in our native language of choice of that night - Urdu, English or Punjabi. I basically thank Him for all the good things in life. Of course, had I been a destitute, I would have been complaining. I am no hypocrite like most Muslims are.
                 
                I commend Munir Sahib for posting the article but I do not support his retreat.
                 
                Regards,
                 
                Shahid Mahmud
                 
                 
                 


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              • Rashid Mughal
                Dear friends of Writers Forum: Khalid Bin Umar has categorically stated that This forum belongs to Muslims. As I explained to Khawaja Ashraf in my last
                Message 7 of 23 , May 2 1:26 PM
                • 0 Attachment

                  Dear friends of Writers’ Forum:

                   

                  Khalid Bin Umar has categorically stated that “This forum belongs to Muslims.” As I explained to Khawaja Ashraf in my last post, it is psychological memory that tells us that we’re Muslim, they’re not, and then, to hurt each other, we use that to show each other the greater or lesser degree of their Muslimness, and so on.

                   

                  It is news to me that Khalid Bin Umar is being so close-minded. Surely, a statement like that should come from the moderator, not from someone who calls Jane Daykin “he”.

                   

                  As always,

                  Rashid Mughal

                   

                  *****************************************

                  Rashid Mughal

                  71-3024 Cedarglen Gate

                  Mississauga ON L5C 4S3 Canada

                  Tel (905) 803-9718

                  -----------------------------------------

                  THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH

                  Rightly or wrongly all remembrance of things past is fiction. — Ernest Hemingway

                   

                  This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information.  If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, distribute,

                  or copy this message or attachment in any way.  If you received this e-mail message in error, please delete the e-mail and any attachments.


                  From: Khalid Bin Umar [mailto:khalidkoraivi@...]
                  Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:05 AM
                  To: Rashid Mughal
                  Subject: RE: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                   

                   

                  Attn: Rashid Mughal (?)

                   

                  After going through your ramblings in your email attached below , which was correctly rejected by the moderator of this forum (You send it peronally to me.)

                   

                  I was reminded of a saying of  JANE DAYKIN.

                   

                  He said  " I dont suffer from insanity .....I enjoy every minute of it....."

                  I think Rashid is enjoying every moment of it..........

                   

                  I was under the impreesion that you (Rashid )are a muslim......Any way sorry for that.

                   

                  I dont want to discuss these internal issues with a non-believer.

                   

                  Please be reminded that myself (and every sane guy) always abstains in dealing the following two :

                              1.Barking street dogs

                              2.Insane people.

                   

                  Thanks a lot for your patience.

                   

                  Khalid Bin Umar

                   

                  A beliver in Allah SWT and A lover of Hazrat Muhammad sallalaaho alaihe wasallam

                   

                  P.S- I would advise you to Try any other forum.This forum belongs to muslims.




                  Rashid Mughal <rashid@...> wrote:

                  Dear Khalid Bin Umar & friends of Writers Forum:

                   

                  I feel certain the moderator of this forum, our friend and host Munir Pervaiz, is utterly speechless when he is ever so vulnerable to all kinds of attacks from the defenders of the faith.

                   

                  I feel a person in his situation must suffer the fangs of rejection when some people bark rude insults and boastfully declare they wish to be dropped from the List-Serv.   

                   

                  I feel certain theres something wrong with the way we see things. We see them only one way: its my wayor the highway.

                   

                  Take a hike, folks.

                   

                  I feel we differ, sometimes vehemently and violently, because each of us is at a different level of growth in our physical and mental growth and in our religious and spiritual evolution. Our religious beliefs, of course, have much to do with the way we interpret the realities that surround us in the sea of life, given the patterns of behaviourism that weve witnessed on this forum from time to time.

                   

                  Out of habit, generally speaking, we tend to shoot the messenger without due consideration for the message.

                   

                  I feel perturbed that much the same thing happened to Muhammad when he opened his mouth to propagate the truth he had realized, which is crystallized in what we know today as Islam. The prophet had to run for his life, and we Muslims mark our calendars from that moment on.

                   

                  The Meccans of that time were not ready to accept a new message from what their forefathers had been receiving; moreover, it is so much easier to shoot the messenger than to change the way we see things. No one wants to change, even if we talk about the sea of change all around us all the time. 

                   

                  I feel perturbed that some latter-day Meccans have dropped from this forum just because the moderator sent us a link about which we may have been ignorant, or because the contents of a story were so saucy, coming, as they did, from a woman on the mat in the mosque with her heart in her crotch.

                   

                  That woman is asking a legitimate question about which the imams are in denial. But never mind. The point is that that website is a vibrant reality of the times, and Muslim and non-Muslim alike should see it as a necessary evil.

                   

                  I feel we cannot bury our heads in the sand like an ostrich to shut out the world.

                   

                  The world is within usunless we are in denial.

                   

                  Heres my question to all of you: Can we see a thing for what it is; that is, without demanding what it should be?

                   

                  As always,

                  Rashid Mughal

                   

                  *****************************************

                  Rashid Mughal

                  71-3024 Cedarglen Gate

                  Mississauga ON L5C 4S3 Canada

                  Tel (905) 803-9718

                  -----------------------------------------

                  THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH

                  Rightly or wrongly all remembrance of things past is fiction.  Ernest Hemingway

                   

                  This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information.  If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, distribute,

                  or copy this message or attachment in any way.  If you received this e-mail message in error, please delete the e-mail and any attachments.


                  From: Khalid Bin Umar [mailto:khalidkoraivi@...]
                  Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 2:11 PM
                  To: Munir Pervaiz
                  Cc: writers_forum@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                   

                   Dear Mr.Munir  As salam o alaekum 

                  Let us start with Ghalib!  

                  Main bhi munh mein zaban rakhta hooon

                  Kash poochho ki muddua kya  hai ! ! ! ! ! !

                  I still seek your pardon for not understanding the motive behind the publicizing of this sc called wakeup group. I expected a clear cut answer from you..keeping in view your  and open hearted ness in publishing and introducing the so called wake up.

                   As a moderator I think you have done the best for these so called wake up group. They are sleeping and made you wake up.You have done more than required. Why do you say I should not indulge too much..you are not indulged .you are submerged..dont lament for that. 

                  What kind of dogmatic inhibitions are you talking about? Should we ask you what should our Muslim Ummah should do with this regards Please give clear cut plan and advise us how to get rid of this  DOGMATIC INHIBITIONS .I await your suggestions.You must clarify what are these inhibitions.. 

                  What Niaz Fatehpuri has to do with wakeup muslims.? And this issue

                   (1)Was niaz fatehpuri an authority on any subjector he is regarded somewhat like that..

                  (2)Niaz , a person,,who started his Nigaaar , ridiculing , quran , hadith, jannat, dozakh, allah SWT ,,,,,,,,,

                   (3)Niaz who at one place stated that quran e majeed is authored by Muhammad Sallahlahu alaihe wasallam ? (Nigar June 1940)

                   (4)At last he inclined towards ahmidiaya (qadiyani jammat) and donated the whole of life time collection of books to ahmadiya jammat and praised Ghulam ahmad qadiani as aashiq e rasool .

                   (5)Was Very interested in publishing matters related to erotica always most prompt editor of his times.Very genrous in putting ifnormaion regaridng sexuality....you can say vulgarity...........

                  What should I learn from him.I think the last point.is required by you.

                  Now come to mathnavi of Maulana Rome Rahmatullah alaihe

                  From the whole collection of the Mathnavi you got this single couplet to prove your point?

                  I can put the remaining of the whole of mathnawi in support of my point? What do you say? If I ask you to put before the world the whole mathanvi as it is with its coomentary ............These wake up people will turn agaisnt you......I am sure.... 

                  I am at a loss to understand what lack Islam has shown regarding sexuality etc. what is the lacunae which needs to be fulfilled..What kind of denial is there strange really strange.to find that Muslims deny and are lacking only in these matters?

                  I am justified in asking the forum Is this the real issue of Muslims or Humanity to discuss at this juncture. 

                  Is this the only problem, which after being discussed would save the humanity. 

                  Munir sb. Why did you gave an account of your daily routine at night? What impression do you want to give us. Did we ever suspect you that you are not a practicing Muslim..It was so nice to know about your routine. Please keep it upMay Allah give the same taufeeq of reciting the same surah and QUl and tasbeeh to the people of Wakeup.com also so that they are protected at night from  bad dreams about Islam and sexuality. 

                  If this discussion leaves us without any message and paigham,I think we are really wasting our energy and timeIf we are so much open minded in discussing these issue why dont we give clear cut advises and suggestions for the readers. Or it was just a pebble thrown in the water to disturb the people on the forum.

                   At last I would put some lines of Allama Iqbal . 

                  Ishq o Masti ka janaza hai takhayyul un ka

                  In ke andesha e tareek hain qaumon ke mazar

                   

                  Chashm e adam se chhupatey hain maqamat e buland

                  Kartey hain rooh ko khwabeeda , badan ko bedaar

                   

                  Hind ke shair o soorat garo afsana navees

                  Ah Becharon ke asaab per aurat hai sawaar

                   

                  2

                  Andesha hua shokiy e afkar pe majboor

                  Farsooda tareeqo se zamana hua bezaar

                  Insaan ki hawas ne jinhe rakha tha chhipa kar

                  Khultey nazar aatey hain ba tadreej wo asrar

                   Qur;aan mein ho ghotazan ai mard e musalman 

                  Allah kare tujh ko   ata    jiddat e kirdar ! ! !

                   

                  Was salaam,

                   

                  With best regards,

                  KHALID BIN UMAR

                  INDIA

                  P.S  Yes , Late Hakeem Israr Ahmad Koraivi was the brother of my Great Grand Father  Late Dr. Azam Koraivi  , famous afsana nigaar and a contemporary of Niyaz Fatehpuri. Except my father the whole of our family is in Pakistan We live in India .Any way it was so pleasing to get your introduction.that added  a lot to your regard. With kindest regards, Khalid Bin Umar

                  _______________________________________________________

                   

                   

                   


                  As a moderators I should not indulge too much with others' opinions.

                  I will quote the following from Ghalib (Knowing that a friend will
                  correct me ;-), and present it to Koraivi Sb.

                  yaarab ! wo na samjhe haiN na samjheNge meree baat
                  de  aur  dil  unko, jo  na de  mujhko  zubaaN  aur

                  (My Lord, The have not and will not understand what I say
                  Please bless them with a different heart, if you can not bless me
                  with fresher langue)

                  Koraivi Sahib, It is the dogmatic inhibition that sends us to the
                  societies of Eunuchs.

                  I am surprised that you read Niaz Fatehpuri and still question

                  (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

                • Shahid Mahmud
                  Dear Mr. Ashraf, The difficulty is that Mr. Umar s questions are rhetorical and based on the claim that at the end I left the readers empty handed. That
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 2 5:23 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Mr. Ashraf,
                     
                    The difficulty is that Mr. Umar's questions are rhetorical and based on the claim that at the end I left the readers 'empty handed.' That means if I respond I would have agreed to his accusations that what I wrote did not make any sense. Far from it. The message was loud and clear. Muslims only object to 'erotica' when it is mentioned in questioning of Islam's ethos and ethics. Otherwise Muslim books, like many other religious texts, are replete with direct or indirect references to human sexuality.
                     
                    Maryam in the story asked a very relevant question. A typical Muslim male cannot bear the sight of a woman asking such a question while he has done nothing to cleanse Quran and other sources from such references.
                     
                    Upon my return from a business trip on Wednesday, I shall post an article to further highlight the issue.
                     
                    Last year I was sitting with Mr. Ahmed Raza Qasuri, an ex-MNA of Pakistan along with a businessman, a journalist and a retired army general, in the backyard of Mr. Qasuri's spacious Islamabad residence. The discussion turned to Jihadis and the promise of 72 virgins as a reward for the 'martyr'. I asked why don't the Pakistan army soldiers and officers claim the prize in the Hereafter instead of young men brainwashed into seeking this bath in the flesh. The army general said that the whole claim of 72 virgins is demeaning and shameless and he wondered how could one discuss such things with his sister and mother.
                     
                    I was pleasantly surprised. It seems that many Muslims have themselves doubts about such beliefs immersed in 'erotica'. Perhaps Mr. Umar can begin by questioning these doubts and he should start with his local Maulvi - not me.
                     
                    As for my 'it was a time', it is exactly what it is: "it was a time." We are prisoners of our cultural and religious indoctrination. It takes time to heal - most never get well.
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Shahid Mahmud
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 12:26 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                    Khalid Bin Umar sahib,
                     
                    You have asked the right kind of question to Mr. Shahid Mahmud. It was a time when Mr. Shahid Mahmud preached that Islam is a MUKAMMAL ZABTA-E-HAYYAT. Let us see how he responds your question.
                     
                    K. Ashraf
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Khalid Bin Umar [mailto:khalidkoraivi@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:37 AM
                    To: Shahid Mahmud
                    Cc: writers_forum@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                    Dear Readers,
                     
                    I am asking Mr.Shahid Mahmud to tell us point wise what should muslims do now ?
                     
                    You see he has wasted a lot of time in writing so many lines......below but at the last everybody is empty handed and fail to understand the message.
                     
                    I am asking Mr.Mahmud to lay down some rules and priniciples in order to rectify the errors of Islam and Muslims on this subject ....Point wise.............. and dont indulge in futile discussions...
                     
                    Just let me know what we should do now....what reforms are required.....what changes in thoughts and actions you expect of us ??? That's all.
                     
                    Islam is not a jumble house for everybody to play with him ........Just tell what Islam and what kind of muslims you need .But the answer should be pointwise and practical to be put into practice from today itself (if it is so).
                     
                    Thanks & Regards
                     
                    Khalid Bin Umar


                    Shahid Mahmud <smahmud@...> wrote:
                    Dear Readers,
                     
                    This is so typical of Islamists - including the so called 'liberal' type. A little prick and the Muslim apologist bursts in anger. How dare you!
                     
                    Grudgingly he guards he sensual side of the theology but when you point out the logical conclusion from it, that is effrontery - an act of a horrid beast.
                     
                    Reminds me of a very famous book in Urdu which is not only advertised on the back of other books and magazine, once countless Pakistani brick and concrete facades were littered with advertisement for the book. The book is titled: "Maut Ka Manzar Marnay Key Ba'ad Kia Ho Ga", essentially "What it would be death like after dying." A female cousin of mine read it and then mentioned it to me. I borrowed it from her to read and then returned it without delving much into the contents with the exception that it contains 'shameless' stuff.
                     
                    Indeed there is no enormity big enough to describe what is contained in the Islamic books concerning human sexuality, that too primarily male dominated. So for some to take offense from this post from Mr. Munir is beyond reason. Indeed it is hypocritical.
                     
                    I know the reason.
                     
                    Muslim apologists are very protective of their religion. Outwardly they defend the sanitized version of Islam while jealously protecting the questionable and condemnable side. Munir Sahib touched a nerve, an act which a Muslim does not expect from a fellow Muslim. No wonder Munir Sahib obliged and before he is branded a heretic by the pious, he relented by listing his daily routine before he goes to bed.
                     
                    The article in question began with a verse from the Quran. The Muslim apologists should ask themselves - where does this stuff come from. Maryam in the story picked it up from where? Isn't this in the Quran that men of the paradise would get virgins? So why are Muslims ashamed of bearing the consequence of the Quranic 'glad tidings'? If the 'Holy Book' contains clear references further butteressed by other elements of the Muslim theology, why pick on this article?
                     
                    Here is my routine before I go to sleep. I floss and clean my teeth. Read few pages of a book which is enough to bring on sweet dreams after half an hour or sooner. My God does not need prayer in Arabic so we talk in our native language of choice of that night - Urdu, English or Punjabi. I basically thank Him for all the good things in life. Of course, had I been a destitute, I would have been complaining. I am no hypocrite like most Muslims are.
                     
                    I commend Munir Sahib for posting the article but I do not support his retreat.
                     
                    Regards,
                     
                    Shahid Mahmud
                     
                     
                     


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                  • Khawaja Ashraf
                    Dear Mr. Mahmud, I did not have problem with your point of then when you tried to convince Syed Adeeb of Information Time that Islam is a mukammal
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 2 8:51 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Mr. Mahmud,
                       
                      I did not have problem with your point of then when you tried to convince Syed Adeeb of Information Time that Islam is a mukammal zabta-e-hayyat and he argued no Islam did not have any system at all; and, I do not have problem with your point of view now. I agree with you that we look at things the way our minds are conditioned. However, powerful, multi track and liberated minds do have the ability to break the barriers of those conditions and present a more comprehensive picture  to their contemporaries and consequently influence their point of view. Leaders, prophets, philosophers, poets, writers are the kind of people who do such miracles. They all become part of common folks' spiritual personalities. In some cases, common folks cannot break their spill for thousands of years. Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad are such examples. 
                       
                      The beauty of life lies in its diversity. This diversity counts at all levels: tangible and intangible, material and spiritual.
                       
                      I always enjoy your postings.  
                       
                      Best regards,
                       
                      K. Ashraf
                       
                       -----Original Message-----
                      From: Shahid Mahmud [mailto:smahmud@...]
                      Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 5:24 PM
                      To: Khawaja Ashraf; Khalid Bin Umar
                      Cc: writers_forum@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                      Dear Mr. Ashraf,
                       
                      The difficulty is that Mr. Umar's questions are rhetorical and based on the claim that at the end I left the readers 'empty handed.' That means if I respond I would have agreed to his accusations that what I wrote did not make any sense. Far from it. The message was loud and clear. Muslims only object to 'erotica' when it is mentioned in questioning of Islam's ethos and ethics. Otherwise Muslim books, like many other religious texts, are replete with direct or indirect references to human sexuality.
                       
                      Maryam in the story asked a very relevant question. A typical Muslim male cannot bear the sight of a woman asking such a question while he has done nothing to cleanse Quran and other sources from such references.
                       
                      Upon my return from a business trip on Wednesday, I shall post an article to further highlight the issue.
                       
                      Last year I was sitting with Mr. Ahmed Raza Qasuri, an ex-MNA of Pakistan along with a businessman, a journalist and a retired army general, in the backyard of Mr. Qasuri's spacious Islamabad residence. The discussion turned to Jihadis and the promise of 72 virgins as a reward for the 'martyr'. I asked why don't the Pakistan army soldiers and officers claim the prize in the Hereafter instead of young men brainwashed into seeking this bath in the flesh. The army general said that the whole claim of 72 virgins is demeaning and shameless and he wondered how could one discuss such things with his sister and mother.
                       
                      I was pleasantly surprised. It seems that many Muslims have themselves doubts about such beliefs immersed in 'erotica'. Perhaps Mr. Umar can begin by questioning these doubts and he should start with his local Maulvi - not me.
                       
                      As for my 'it was a time', it is exactly what it is: "it was a time." We are prisoners of our cultural and religious indoctrination. It takes time to heal - most never get well.
                       
                      Regards,
                       
                      Shahid Mahmud
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 12:26 PM
                      Subject: RE: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                      Khalid Bin Umar sahib,
                       
                      You have asked the right kind of question to Mr. Shahid Mahmud. It was a time when Mr. Shahid Mahmud preached that Islam is a MUKAMMAL ZABTA-E-HAYYAT. Let us see how he responds your question.
                       
                      K. Ashraf
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Khalid Bin Umar [mailto:khalidkoraivi@...]
                      Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:37 AM
                      To: Shahid Mahmud
                      Cc: writers_forum@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Writers_Forum] Re: Lustrous Companions : UMMA & SEX & Muslim Wakeup.com

                      Dear Readers,
                       
                      I am asking Mr.Shahid Mahmud to tell us point wise what should muslims do now ?
                       
                      You see he has wasted a lot of time in writing so many lines......below but at the last everybody is empty handed and fail to understand the message.
                       
                      I am asking Mr.Mahmud to lay down some rules and priniciples in order to rectify the errors of Islam and Muslims on this subject ....Point wise.............. and dont indulge in futile discussions...
                       
                      Just let me know what we should do now....what reforms are required.....what changes in thoughts and actions you expect of us ??? That's all.
                       
                      Islam is not a jumble house for everybody to play with him ........Just tell what Islam and what kind of muslims you need .But the answer should be pointwise and practical to be put into practice from today itself (if it is so).
                       
                      Thanks & Regards
                       
                      Khalid Bin Umar


                      Shahid Mahmud <smahmud@...> wrote:
                      Dear Readers,
                       
                      This is so typical of Islamists - including the so called 'liberal' type. A little prick and the Muslim apologist bursts in anger. How dare you!
                       
                      Grudgingly he guards he sensual side of the theology but when you point out the logical conclusion from it, that is effrontery - an act of a horrid beast.
                       
                      Reminds me of a very famous book in Urdu which is not only advertised on the back of other books and magazine, once countless Pakistani brick and concrete facades were littered with advertisement for the book. The book is titled: "Maut Ka Manzar Marnay Key Ba'ad Kia Ho Ga", essentially "What it would be death like after dying." A female cousin of mine read it and then mentioned it to me. I borrowed it from her to read and then returned it without delving much into the contents with the exception that it contains 'shameless' stuff.
                       
                      Indeed there is no enormity big enough to describe what is contained in the Islamic books concerning human sexuality, that too primarily male dominated. So for some to take offense from this post from Mr. Munir is beyond reason. Indeed it is hypocritical.
                       
                      I know the reason.
                       
                      Muslim apologists are very protective of their religion. Outwardly they defend the sanitized version of Islam while jealously protecting the questionable and condemnable side. Munir Sahib touched a nerve, an act which a Muslim does not expect from a fellow Muslim. No wonder Munir Sahib obliged and before he is branded a heretic by the pious, he relented by listing his daily routine before he goes to bed.
                       
                      The article in question began with a verse from the Quran. The Muslim apologists should ask themselves - where does this stuff come from. Maryam in the story picked it up from where? Isn't this in the Quran that men of the paradise would get virgins? So why are Muslims ashamed of bearing the consequence of the Quranic 'glad tidings'? If the 'Holy Book' contains clear references further butteressed by other elements of the Muslim theology, why pick on this article?
                       
                      Here is my routine before I go to sleep. I floss and clean my teeth. Read few pages of a book which is enough to bring on sweet dreams after half an hour or sooner. My God does not need prayer in Arabic so we talk in our native language of choice of that night - Urdu, English or Punjabi. I basically thank Him for all the good things in life. Of course, had I been a destitute, I would have been complaining. I am no hypocrite like most Muslims are.
                       
                      I commend Munir Sahib for posting the article but I do not support his retreat.
                       
                      Regards,
                       
                      Shahid Mahmud
                       
                       
                       


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