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Ahmadis in Bangla Desh

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  • Munir Saami
    Protests rise against Muslim sect By Roland Buerk BBC News, Bogra, northern Bangladesh The protesters had gathered to hear their neighbours denounced as
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 30, 2005
      Protests rise against Muslim sect

      By Roland Buerk
      BBC News, Bogra, northern Bangladesh

      The protesters had gathered to hear their neighbours denounced as heretics and infidels.

      Protesters in Bogra, Bangladesh
      Ahmadiyyas must be declared non-Muslim, protesters say

      "Kaffir, kaffir," the mullah shouted into his microphone again and again, looking over the crowd from the makeshift stage set up on the back of a truck. "Infidel, infidel."

      And he led the demonstrators in a chant: "Ahmadiyyas are not Muslims."

      For four hours, the leaders of the International Khatme Nabuwat Andolon exhorted their followers in the main square of Bangladesh's northern town of Bogra.

      The crowd swelled to far more than 5,000, most wearing skull caps.

      At times the voices of the speakers cracked with emotion and they sobbed into the microphone.

      There were tears among their audience too, and shouts of rage.

      Scattered

      The target of this passionate hatred was the Ahmadiyya community, sometimes called Ahmadis or Qadianis.

      We believe in Allah and we pray for Allah... why do these people come to crush us?
      Khandker Azmal Haq,
      Ahmadiyya leader

      "They don't obey our prophet as the last prophet," shouted one supporter.

      "We'll force the government to ban them," added the protester next to him.

      Another vowed: "We'll continue our jihad against them, we'll continue our marches."

      There are 100,000 members of the Ahmadiyya community in Bangladesh.

      They are scattered in pockets in cities, towns and villages up and down the country.

      The campaigners of the International Khatme Nabuwat Andolon Bangladesh has organised a series of rallies demanding that the government formally declare that members of the sect are not Muslims.

      Pakistan ruling

      In Bogra, the protesters had threatened to lay siege to the Ahmadiyya mosque.

      For the members of the community in the town it was a day of real fear.

      Inside their compound, behind police barricades, they were sitting in their tiny prayer hall.

      Just a few dozen pairs of sandals were lined up outside.

      In Bogra, as throughout Bangladesh, the Ahmadiyyas are a tiny minority.

      They were having a lesson in their religion, sitting on the floor, listening to a teacher.

      The sect was founded by Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam, who was born in the town of Qadian in Punjab in 1835.

      The Ahmadiyyas believe he was the Imam Mahdi, or the Promised Messiah.

      The more orthodox are still waiting for his arrival.

      It is a doctrine that has led to their movement being persecuted in some countries.

      In Pakistan, legislation was passed in 1974 declaring the Ahmadiyya community non-Muslims after a series of riots.

      But until recently they were allowed to worship without interference in traditionally tolerant Bangladesh.

      Signboard

      "We did not think that we would have to face such a situation because we believe in Allah and we pray for Allah," says Khandker Azmal Haq, the president of Rajshahi Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat.

      Anti-Ahmadiyya rally in Dhaka, Bangladesh
      The capital, Dhaka, has also seen big rallies against the Ahmadiyya

      "So in this praying house, why do these people come to crush us?"

      Already the government has bowed to some of the protesters' demands.

      In January 2004, the home ministry issued a notice announcing that books published by the Ahmadiyya community were outlawed.

      A statement said the ban "was imposed in view of objectionable materials in such publications that hurt or might hurt the sentiments of the majority Muslim population of Bangladesh".

      Human rights lawyers are challenging the ruling in the courts.

      They believe an important principle is at stake.

      "There is a tendency to establish a monolithic, mono-religious strain in the political situation in Bangladesh," says Sultana Kamal, a lawyer with the human rights organisation Ain o Salish Kendra.

      "We think this is just one of the cases, that there will be very many cases if this is not stopped right now."

      In the end the protesters were kept away from the Ahmadiyya mosque in Bogra.

      But later in the evening, after they had dispersed, the police replaced the signboard on the building.

      It read: "The Qadiani upasanalaya (place of worship) in Bogra town: Muslims, do not be fooled into thinking it is a mosque."

      Watching, some members of the Ahmadiyya community burst into tears.

      It was a small concession by the local police to the demands of the International Khatme Nabuwat Andolon, but the campaigners want much more.

      They have given the government until 23 December to declare the Ahmadiyyas are not Muslims, otherwise, said one speaker in Bogra, there will be blood in the streets.


    • Ibrahim Hayani
      ... Hi Friends: I found it outrageous that at this time and age, there are people who still give themselves the right to monopolize Islam, and for that
      Message 2 of 26 , May 1, 2005





        Hi Friends:

        I found it outrageous that at this time and age, there are people who still give themselves the right to "monopolize" Islam, and for that matter any religion. It is the ultimate in arrogance and ignorance for any person to appoint himself/herself as a "lawyer" for God or the gate-keeper of the Divine's mercy and compassion.
        What a tragic trivialization of one's faith to end up building walls of exclusivity instead of promoting and enjoying the brilliance, enchantment, and humanity of inclusivity.  To me it is so utterly "un-Islamic" to engage in such a futile, destructive, and  ignorant exercise, namely, to give oneself the right, let alone asking your government , to decide who can  call himself/herself a Muslim  and who cannot. What a  tragic perversion of spirituality!

        Regards

        Ibrahim Hayani

      • Farzana Hassan Shahid
        Hello WF, Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe it is about time Muslims
        Message 3 of 26 , May 2, 2005
          Hello WF,
           
          Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe it is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims.  Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims. 
            As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against the kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-religionists.  Such bigotry denies people the right to live in peace and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I hope that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims. 
           
          Farzana.
           


          Ibrahim Hayani <ibrahim.hayani@...> wrote:





          Hi Friends:

          I found it outrageous that at this time and age, there are people who still give themselves the right to "monopolize" Islam, and for that matter any religion. It is the ultimate in arrogance and ignorance for any person to appoint himself/herself as a "lawyer" for God or the gate-keeper of the Divine's mercy and compassion.
          What a tragic trivialization of one's faith to end up building walls of exclusivity instead of promoting and enjoying the brilliance, enchantment, and humanity of inclusivity.  To me it is so utterly "un-Islamic" to engage in such a futile, destructive, and  ignorant exercise, namely, to give oneself the right, let alone asking your government , to decide who can  call himself/herself a Muslim  and who cannot. What a  tragic perversion of spirituality!

          Regards

          Ibrahim Hayani



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        • mansoor hassan
          it is true, i have been in their different debates in Multan pakistan even as sunni muslim and also now in my exiled life in Manchester ,i found ahmedis more
          Message 4 of 26 , May 3, 2005
            it is true,
            i have been in their different debates in Multan pakistan even as sunni muslim and also now in my exiled life in Manchester ,i found ahmedis more dedicated polite and good believers and as human being they are nice. As Human being they have the right to live like any other muslim ,if leaders of different political,religious organisations are muslims then ahmdis are better muslims
            **************************************************************************************************************

            Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...> wrote:
            Hello WF,
             
            Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe it is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims.  Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims. 
              As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against the kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-religionists.  Such bigotry denies people the right to live in peace and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I hope that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims. 
             
            Farzana.
             


            Ibrahim Hayani <ibrahim.hayani@...> wrote:





            Hi Friends:

            I found it outrageous that at this time and age, there are people who still give themselves the right to "monopolize" Islam, and for that matter any religion. It is the ultimate in arrogance and ignorance for any person to appoint himself/herself as a "lawyer" for God or the gate-keeper of the Divine's mercy and compassion.
            What a tragic trivialization of one's faith to end up building walls of exclusivity instead of promoting and enjoying the brilliance, enchantment, and humanity of inclusivity.  To me it is so utterly "un-Islamic" to engage in such a futile, destructive, and  ignorant exercise, namely, to give oneself the right, let alone asking your government , to decide who can  call himself/herself a Muslim  and who cannot. What a  tragic perversion of spirituality!

            Regards

            Ibrahim Hayani



            Support Freedom of Expression: Join PEN Canada today!
            http://www.pencanada.ca/

            How Convenient!
            Access the Writers Forum Group, Click here:
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            MANSOOR HASSAN
            CHIEF EDITOR
            MANCHESTER,
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          • shaitanrajeem1
            Hello sister Farazana! Can I call you my sister? Thanks for doing my work!!! You wrote: the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is dear to
            Message 5 of 26 , May 3, 2005
              Hello sister Farazana!
              Can I call you my sister? Thanks for doing my work!!!

              You wrote:
              ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is dear
              to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does
              not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple theology
              focused on the belief in One God. It is a peripheral issue and one
              that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"

              Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my work
              you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest Ghazali's
              Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood writer.

              Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of their
              sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:

              1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
              2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
              3. A belief in the day of judgment.

              I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
              confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The only
              people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis. BTW
              the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.

              I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called you
              my sister.

              But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if you
              ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.

              His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and has
              never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will never be
              able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?

              Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali Khan!!

              MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
              Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
              Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
              Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
              Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
              Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
              Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.

              Baaqi Aaindah.
              Yours truly Shaitaan.

              --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
              <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
              > Hello WF,
              >
              > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
              fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe it
              is about time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
              government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims.
              Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh
              is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as
              it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
              theology focused on the belief in One God. It is a peripheral issue
              and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims.
              > As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against the
              kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-
              religionists. Such bigotry denies people the right to live in peace
              and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I hope
              that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such
              atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims.
              >
              > Farzana.
              >
              >
              >
            • Farzana Hassan Shahid
              Dear Shaitaan Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly not you. Regards
              Message 6 of 26 , May 3, 2005
                 
                Dear Shaitaan
                Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the  heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly not you.
                 
                Regards
                Farzana.

                shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                Hello sister Farazana!
                Can I call you my sister?  Thanks for doing my work!!!

                You wrote:
                ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is dear
                to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does
                not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple theology
                focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and one
                that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"

                Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my work
                you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest Ghazali's
                Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood writer.

                Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of their
                sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:

                1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                3. A belief in the day of judgment.

                I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The only
                people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis. BTW
                the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.

                I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called you
                my sister.

                But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if you
                ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.

                His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and has
                never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will never be
                able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?

                Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali Khan!!

                MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
                Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.

                Baaqi Aaindah.
                Yours truly Shaitaan.

                --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                > Hello WF,

                > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe it
                is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims. 
                Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh
                is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as
                it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue
                and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims.
                >   As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against the
                kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-
                religionists.  Such bigotry denies people the right to live in peace
                and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I hope
                that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such
                atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims.

                > Farzana.

                >
                >







                Support Freedom of Expression: Join PEN Canada today!
                http://www.pencanada.ca/

                How Convenient!
                Access the Writers Forum Group, Click here:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/
                To post messages,email to:
                Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com





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              • shaitanrajeem1
                Hello Chhoti Behan, So you also confirmed that you beleive in Allah (Oh miGod), and in the judgemnt. What about the finality of prophethood of Mohammed. Do you
                Message 7 of 26 , May 3, 2005
                  Hello Chhoti Behan,

                  So you also confirmed that you beleive in Allah (Oh miGod), and in
                  the judgemnt.

                  What about the finality of prophethood of Mohammed. Do you beleive
                  in that . If not , then you are still my one third sister.

                  And any one who has me as a friend or relative, is doomed. That is
                  Allah's promise. Did'nt he say everywhere in Quran, "Sadaq al Allah
                  o azeem". Did'nt he say that" Do not take Shaitaan as friend."

                  I will be here till the moderator kicks me off as he recently did to
                  one of my friends.

                  Bi Bi.
                  Shaitaan1


                  --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                  <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Shaitaan
                  > Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the
                  heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly
                  not you.
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > Farzana.
                  >
                  > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                  > Hello sister Farazana!
                  > Can I call you my sister? Thanks for doing my work!!!
                  >
                  > You wrote:
                  > ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is
                  dear
                  > to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does
                  > not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                  theology
                  > focused on the belief in One God. It is a peripheral issue and
                  one
                  > that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"
                  >
                  > Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my
                  work
                  > you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest
                  Ghazali's
                  > Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood writer.
                  >
                  > Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of their
                  > sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:
                  >
                  > 1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                  > 2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                  > 3. A belief in the day of judgment.
                  >
                  > I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                  > confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The only
                  > people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis.
                  BTW
                  > the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.
                  >
                  > I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called
                  you
                  > my sister.
                  >
                  > But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if
                  you
                  > ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.
                  >
                  > His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and
                  has
                  > never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will never
                  be
                  > able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?
                  >
                  > Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali
                  Khan!!
                  >
                  > MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                  > Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                  > Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                  > Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                  > Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                  > Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
                  > Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.
                  >
                  > Baaqi Aaindah.
                  > Yours truly Shaitaan.
                  >
                  > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                  > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                  > > Hello WF,
                  > >
                  > > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                  > fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe
                  it
                  > is about time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                  > government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims.
                  > Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad
                  pbuh
                  > is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as
                  > it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's
                  simple
                  > theology focused on the belief in One God. It is a peripheral
                  issue
                  > and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims.
                  > > As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against
                  the
                  > kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-
                  > religionists. Such bigotry denies people the right to live in
                  peace
                  > and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I
                  hope
                  > that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such
                  > atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims.
                  > >
                  > > Farzana.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Support Freedom of Expression: Join PEN Canada today!
                  > http://www.pencanada.ca/
                  >
                  > How Convenient!
                  > Access the Writers Forum Group, Click here:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Writers_Forum/
                  > To post messages,email to:
                  > Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                  >
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                • Farzana Hassan Shahid
                  Dear Shaitani I am a Sunni Muslim and believe in the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh. However, I do not believe in showing intolerance towards those who
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 3, 2005
                    Dear Shaitani
                     
                    I am a Sunni Muslim and believe in the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh. However, I do not believe in showing intolerance towards those who may have a slightly diferrent understanding of the issue.
                     
                    Cheers
                    Farzana.

                    shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                    Hello Chhoti Behan,

                    So you also confirmed that you beleive in Allah (Oh miGod), and in
                    the judgemnt.

                    What about the finality of prophethood of Mohammed. Do you beleive
                    in that . If not , then you are still my one third sister.

                    And any one who has me as a friend or relative, is doomed. That is
                    Allah's promise. Did'nt he say everywhere in Quran, "Sadaq al Allah
                    o azeem". Did'nt he say that" Do not take Shaitaan as friend."

                    I will be here till the moderator kicks me off as he recently did to
                    one of my friends.

                    Bi Bi.
                    Shaitaan1


                    --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                    <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:

                    > Dear Shaitaan
                    > Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the 
                    heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly
                    not you.

                    > Regards
                    > Farzana.
                    >
                    > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                    > Hello sister Farazana!
                    > Can I call you my sister?  Thanks for doing my work!!!
                    >
                    > You wrote:
                    > ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is
                    dear
                    > to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does
                    > not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                    theology
                    > focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and
                    one
                    > that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"
                    >
                    > Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my
                    work
                    > you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest
                    Ghazali's
                    > Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood writer.
                    >
                    > Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of their
                    > sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:
                    >
                    > 1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                    > 2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                    > 3. A belief in the day of judgment.
                    >
                    > I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                    > confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The only
                    > people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis.
                    BTW
                    > the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.
                    >
                    > I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called
                    you
                    > my sister.
                    >
                    > But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if
                    you
                    > ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.
                    >
                    > His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and
                    has
                    > never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will never
                    be
                    > able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?
                    >
                    > Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali
                    Khan!!
                    >
                    > MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                    > Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                    > Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                    > Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                    > Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                    > Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
                    > Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.
                    >
                    > Baaqi Aaindah.
                    > Yours truly Shaitaan.
                    >
                    > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                    > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hello WF,
                    > > 
                    > > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                    > fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe
                    it
                    > is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                    > government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims. 
                    > Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad
                    pbuh
                    > is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as
                    > it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's
                    simple
                    > theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral
                    issue
                    > and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims.
                    > >   As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against
                    the
                    > kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-
                    > religionists.  Such bigotry denies people the right to live in
                    peace
                    > and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I
                    hope
                    > that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such
                    > atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims.
                    > > 
                    > > Farzana.
                    > > 
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Support Freedom of Expression: Join PEN Canada today!
                    > http://www.pencanada.ca/
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                    > How Convenient!
                    > Access the Writers Forum Group, Click here:
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                  • Shah Jahan Bhatti
                    Alas! religions came to unite humanity but divided it and the trend is infinitive. Shahjahan Farzana Hassan Shahid wrote: Dear Shaitaan
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 3, 2005
                      Alas! 
                      religions came to unite humanity but divided it and the trend is infinitive.
                      Shahjahan

                      Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...>
                      wrote:
                       
                      Dear Shaitaan
                      Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the  heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly not you.
                       
                      Regards
                      Farzana.

                      shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                      Hello sister Farazana!
                      Can I call you my sister?  Thanks for doing my work!!!

                      You wrote:
                      ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is dear
                      to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does
                      not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple theology
                      focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and one
                      that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"

                      Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my work
                      you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest Ghazali's
                      Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood writer.

                      Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of their
                      sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:

                      1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                      2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                      3. A belief in the day of judgment.

                      I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                      confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The only
                      people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis. BTW
                      the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.

                      I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called you
                      my sister.

                      But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if you
                      ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.

                      His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and has
                      never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will never be
                      able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?

                      Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali Khan!!

                      MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                      Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                      Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                      Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                      Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                      Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
                      Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.

                      Baaqi Aaindah.
                      Yours truly Shaitaan.

                      --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                      <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                      > Hello WF,

                      > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                      fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe it
                      is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                      government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims. 
                      Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh
                      is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as
                      it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                      theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue
                      and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims.
                      >   As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against the
                      kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-
                      religionists.  Such bigotry denies people the right to live in peace
                      and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I hope
                      that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such
                      atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims.

                      > Farzana.

                      >
                      >







                      Support Freedom of Expression: Join PEN Canada today!
                      http://www.pencanada.ca/

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                      M. SHAH JAHAN BHATTI

                      Imamgate Dera Ismail Khan NWFP Pakistan

                      Phone 92-0961-711512

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                    • shaitanrajeem1
                      Hello Chhoti Behan, You break my heart! For a moment you did deceive the Shaitan when you wrote the following lines that I have quoted below, for a moment I
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 3, 2005
                        Hello Chhoti Behan,

                        You break my heart!

                        For a moment you did deceive the Shaitan when you wrote the
                        following lines that I have quoted below, for a moment I had a
                        glimmer of hope. But in you I have hopes hee hopes. No Shaitaan can
                        ignore these lines:

                        "...the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh..is
                        not central to Islam's philosophy,...It is a peripheral issue and
                        one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims. "

                        Did you really write those lines before affirming the finality of
                        the prophethood of Mohamed as you did in the latest message?

                        Can you see what the fear of God and hope of Jannah does to even the
                        progressive Muslims? Did you know Rabiah Basri, she was the
                        fearless!!

                        I know it is so difficult to make the Muslims go stray. They are my
                        toughest "nuts".

                        Chhoti behan , you are really confused. You can not put your "PaoN"
                        in two boats. You are the passenger of my boat!!!

                        Well I am around and will keep poking my nose in the affairs of this
                        Forum. I will find some friends. You are definitely one of those.

                        But I have to be careful of the moderator. He will not grant freedom
                        of expression even to the Shaitaan. He is so mean!

                        Yahooo!!! Shaitaan1
                        -------------------------------------------------------
                        --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                        <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                        > Dear Shaitani
                        >
                        > I am a Sunni Muslim and believe in the finality of the prophet
                        Muhammad pbuh. However, I do not believe in showing intolerance
                        towards those who may have a slightly diferrent understanding of the
                        issue.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        > Farzana.
                        >
                        > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                        > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                        >
                        > So you also confirmed that you beleive in Allah (Oh miGod), and in
                        > the judgemnt.
                        >
                        > What about the finality of prophethood of Mohammed. Do you beleive
                        > in that . If not , then you are still my one third sister.
                        >
                        > And any one who has me as a friend or relative, is doomed. That is
                        > Allah's promise. Did'nt he say everywhere in Quran, "Sadaq al
                        Allah
                        > o azeem". Did'nt he say that" Do not take Shaitaan as friend."
                        >
                        > I will be here till the moderator kicks me off as he recently did
                        to
                        > one of my friends.
                        >
                        > Bi Bi.
                        > Shaitaan1
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                        > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear Shaitaan
                        > > Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the
                        > heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly
                        > not you.
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > > Farzana.
                        > >
                        > > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                        > > Hello sister Farazana!
                        > > Can I call you my sister? Thanks for doing my work!!!
                        > >
                        > > You wrote:
                        > > ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is
                        > dear
                        > > to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it
                        does
                        > > not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                        > theology
                        > > focused on the belief in One God. It is a peripheral issue and
                        > one
                        > > that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"
                        > >
                        > > Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my
                        > work
                        > > you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest
                        > Ghazali's
                        > > Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood
                        writer.
                        > >
                        > > Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of
                        their
                        > > sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:
                        > >
                        > > 1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                        > > 2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                        > > 3. A belief in the day of judgment.
                        > >
                        > > I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                        > > confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The
                        only
                        > > people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis.
                        > BTW
                        > > the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.
                        > >
                        > > I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called
                        > you
                        > > my sister.
                        > >
                        > > But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if
                        > you
                        > > ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.
                        > >
                        > > His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and
                        > has
                        > > never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will
                        never
                        > be
                        > > able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?
                        > >
                        > > Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali
                        > Khan!!
                        > >
                        > > MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                        > > Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                        > > Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                        > > Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                        > > Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                        > > Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
                        > > Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.
                        > >
                        > > Baaqi Aaindah.
                        > > Yours truly Shaitaan.
                        > >
                        > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                        > > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                        > > > Hello WF,
                        > > >
                        > > > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                        > > fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I
                        believe
                        > it
                        > > is about time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                        > > government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non
                        Muslims.
                        > > Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad
                        > pbuh
                        > > is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy,
                        as
                        > > it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's
                        > simple
                        > > theology focused on the belief in One God. It is a peripheral
                        > issue
                        > > and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of
                        Muslims.
                      • Farzana Hassan Shahid
                        Shaitaan I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of people, who are
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 4, 2005
                           
                          Shaitaan
                           
                          I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of  people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.
                           
                          Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                          "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are prizes in plenty with God".
                           
                           
                          cheers
                          Farzana.
                           


                          shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                          Hello Chhoti Behan,

                          You break my heart!

                          For a moment you did deceive the Shaitan when you wrote the
                          following lines that I have quoted below, for a moment I had a
                          glimmer of hope. But in you I have hopes hee hopes. No Shaitaan can
                          ignore these lines:

                          "...the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh..is
                          not central to Islam's philosophy,...It is a peripheral issue and
                          one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims. "

                          Did you really write those lines before affirming the finality of
                          the prophethood of Mohamed as you did in the latest message?

                          Can you see what the fear of God and hope of Jannah does to even the
                          progressive Muslims? Did you know Rabiah Basri, she was the
                          fearless!!

                          I know it is so difficult to make the Muslims go stray. They are my
                          toughest "nuts".

                          Chhoti behan , you are really confused. You can not put your "PaoN"
                          in two boats. You are the passenger of my boat!!!

                          Well I am around and will keep poking my nose in the affairs of this
                          Forum. I will find some friends. You are definitely one of those.

                          But I have to be careful of the moderator. He will not grant freedom
                          of expression even to the Shaitaan. He is so mean!

                          Yahooo!!! Shaitaan1
                          -------------------------------------------------------
                          --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                          <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                          > Dear Shaitani

                          > I am a Sunni Muslim and believe in the finality of the prophet
                          Muhammad pbuh. However, I do not believe in showing intolerance
                          towards those who may have a slightly diferrent understanding of the
                          issue.

                          > Cheers
                          > Farzana.
                          >
                          > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                          > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                          >
                          > So you also confirmed that you beleive in Allah (Oh miGod), and in
                          > the judgemnt.
                          >
                          > What about the finality of prophethood of Mohammed. Do you beleive
                          > in that . If not , then you are still my one third sister.
                          >
                          > And any one who has me as a friend or relative, is doomed. That is
                          > Allah's promise. Did'nt he say everywhere in Quran, "Sadaq al
                          Allah
                          > o azeem". Did'nt he say that" Do not take Shaitaan as friend."
                          >
                          > I will be here till the moderator kicks me off as he recently did
                          to
                          > one of my friends.
                          >
                          > Bi Bi.
                          > Shaitaan1
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                          > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                          > > 
                          > > Dear Shaitaan
                          > > Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the 
                          > heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly
                          > not you.
                          > > 
                          > > Regards
                          > > Farzana.
                          > >
                          > > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                          > > Hello sister Farazana!
                          > > Can I call you my sister?  Thanks for doing my work!!!
                          > >
                          > > You wrote:
                          > > ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is
                          > dear
                          > > to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it
                          does
                          > > not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                          > theology
                          > > focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and
                          > one
                          > > that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"
                          > >
                          > > Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my
                          > work
                          > > you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest
                          > Ghazali's
                          > > Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood
                          writer.
                          > >
                          > > Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of
                          their
                          > > sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:
                          > >
                          > > 1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                          > > 2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                          > > 3. A belief in the day of judgment.
                          > >
                          > > I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                          > > confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The
                          only
                          > > people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis.
                          > BTW
                          > > the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.
                          > >
                          > > I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called
                          > you
                          > > my sister.
                          > >
                          > > But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if
                          > you
                          > > ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.
                          > >
                          > > His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and
                          > has
                          > > never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will
                          never
                          > be
                          > > able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?
                          > >
                          > > Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali
                          > Khan!!
                          > >
                          > > MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                          > > Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                          > > Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                          > > Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                          > > Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                          > > Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
                          > > Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.
                          > >
                          > > Baaqi Aaindah.
                          > > Yours truly Shaitaan.
                          > >
                          > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                          > > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                          > > > Hello WF,
                          > > > 
                          > > > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                          > > fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I
                          believe
                          > it
                          > > is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                          > > government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non
                          Muslims. 
                          > > Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad
                          > pbuh
                          > > is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy,
                          as
                          > > it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's
                          > simple
                          > > theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral
                          > issue
                          > > and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of
                          Muslims.







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                        • shaitanrajeem1
                          From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha hay! ... Hello Chhoti Sister. Shaitan s work
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 4, 2005
                            From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha hay!
                            --------------------

                            Hello Chhoti Sister.

                            Shaitan's work is to confuse and befuddle human minds.

                            You first said that the Finality of Prophet-hood was a peripheral
                            issue to Muslims.

                            Then you got afraid of Naar e Jahanumma, and acknowledged the Finality of the Prophet for yourself.

                            In doing so you left the Ahmadis in the lurch. What will they think
                            about you? A true friend indeed?

                            So now, for you the issue of Ahmadis is their persecution as some
                            one out of Islam's essential belief system.

                            As the Shaitan I care less about what you Muslims and Humans do to
                            each other. The more you fight, the more blood you shed, the happier
                            is I.

                            My mission is to drag you the Bani Adama, to hell with me as you got me expelled from Paradise.

                            As "anti-Shaitan" Mian Waheed said, quoting Quran to Shaitan does not work. If it did, I would not be Shaitan, I would still be the most beloved angel of Allah.

                            And Mian Waheed is impressed by my Chhoti Behan's education. Shaitan plays with the Monkey of the Mind. The more educated one is the better for Shaitaan to take over that mind.

                            Shaitan e Rajeem



                            --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                            <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Shaitaan
                            >
                            > I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to
                            the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of
                            people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh. My response is
                            consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not
                            riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.
                            >
                            > Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that
                            is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in
                            the Qur'an. Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                            > "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be
                            discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are
                            not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are
                            prizes in plenty with God".
                            >
                            >
                            > cheers
                            > Farzana.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                            > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                            >
                            > You break my heart!
                            >
                          • mianwaheed
                            Farzana ji: Two things I did not understand in your message: 1. How come you are quoting an aya from Quran to a Shaitan who I believe does not have any faith
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 4, 2005
                              Farzana ji:
                              Two things I did not understand in your message:
                              1. How come you are quoting an aya from Quran to a "Shaitan" who I believe does not have any faith in Quran. Had he/she Shaitan any faith in Quran, he/she would have become a believer.
                              2. You stated that you do not want to company with Shaitan (at least NOT with this particular "Shaitan"), then you should not be saying "cheers" to him/her, rather yell some "launat-ullah" on him/her.
                               
                              I do not know who is playing this game, but I hope that person realizes that he/she calling him/herself "Shaitan" acting like one too is polluting his/her iman (faith). May Allah forgive him/her.
                               
                              BTW, I checked on your website other day. You have an impressive educational background.
                              mian

                              Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...> wrote:
                               
                              Shaitaan
                               
                              I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of  people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.
                               
                              Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                              "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are prizes in plenty with God".
                               
                               
                              cheers
                              Farzana.
                               


                              shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                              Hello Chhoti Behan,

                              You break my heart!

                              For a moment you did deceive the Shaitan when you wrote the
                              following lines that I have quoted below, for a moment I had a
                              glimmer of hope. But in you I have hopes hee hopes. No Shaitaan can
                              ignore these lines:

                              "...the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh..is
                              not central to Islam's philosophy,...It is a peripheral issue and
                              one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims. "

                              Did you really write those lines before affirming the finality of
                              the prophethood of Mohamed as you did in the latest message?

                              Can you see what the fear of God and hope of Jannah does to even the
                              progressive Muslims? Did you know Rabiah Basri, she was the
                              fearless!!

                              I know it is so difficult to make the Muslims go stray. They are my
                              toughest "nuts".

                              Chhoti behan , you are really confused. You can not put your "PaoN"
                              in two boats. You are the passenger of my boat!!!

                              Well I am around and will keep poking my nose in the affairs of this
                              Forum. I will find some friends. You are definitely one of those.

                              But I have to be careful of the moderator. He will not grant freedom
                              of expression even to the Shaitaan. He is so mean!

                              Yahooo!!! Shaitaan1
                              -------------------------------------------------------
                              --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                              <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                              > Dear Shaitani

                              > I am a Sunni Muslim and believe in the finality of the prophet
                              Muhammad pbuh. However, I do not believe in showing intolerance
                              towards those who may have a slightly diferrent understanding of the
                              issue.

                              > Cheers
                              > Farzana.
                              >
                              > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                              > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                              >
                              > So you also confirmed that you beleive in Allah (Oh miGod), and in
                              > the judgemnt.
                              >
                              > What about the finality of prophethood of Mohammed. Do you beleive
                              > in that . If not , then you are still my one third sister.
                              >
                              > And any one who has me as a friend or relative, is doomed. That is
                              > Allah's promise. Did'nt he say everywhere in Quran, "Sadaq al
                              Allah
                              > o azeem". Did'nt he say that" Do not take Shaitaan as friend."
                              >
                              > I will be here till the moderator kicks me off as he recently did
                              to
                              > one of my friends.
                              >
                              > Bi Bi.
                              > Shaitaan1
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                              > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                              > > 
                              > > Dear Shaitaan
                              > > Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the 
                              > heareafter. I will let Allah be the judge of my actions, certainly
                              > not you.
                              > > 
                              > > Regards
                              > > Farzana.
                              > >
                              > > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                              > > Hello sister Farazana!
                              > > Can I call you my sister?  Thanks for doing my work!!!
                              > >
                              > > You wrote:
                              > > ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is
                              > dear
                              > > to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it
                              does
                              > > not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                              > theology
                              > > focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and
                              > one
                              > > that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"
                              > >
                              > > Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my
                              > work
                              > > you need devoted study of Islamic learning. I can suggest
                              > Ghazali's
                              > > Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood
                              writer.
                              > >
                              > > Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of
                              their
                              > > sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:
                              > >
                              > > 1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                              > > 2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                              > > 3. A belief in the day of judgment.
                              > >
                              > > I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                              > > confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The
                              only
                              > > people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis.
                              > BTW
                              > > the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.
                              > >
                              > > I am happy that you are trying to help me. That is why I called
                              > you
                              > > my sister.
                              > >
                              > > But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if
                              > you
                              > > ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.
                              > >
                              > > His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and
                              > has
                              > > never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will
                              never
                              > be
                              > > able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?
                              > >
                              > > Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali
                              > Khan!!
                              > >
                              > > MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                              > > Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                              > > Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                              > > Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                              > > Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                              > > Mullah bethaa haano raha thha
                              > > Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.
                              > >
                              > > Baaqi Aaindah.
                              > > Yours truly Shaitaan.
                              > >
                              > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                              > > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                              > > > Hello WF,
                              > > > 
                              > > > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                              > > fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I
                              believe
                              > it
                              > > is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                              > > government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non
                              Muslims. 
                              > > Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad
                              > pbuh
                              > > is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy,
                              as
                              > > it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's
                              > simple
                              > > theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral
                              > issue
                              > > and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of
                              Muslims.







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                            • Farzana Hassan Shahid
                              Shaitaan, I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest. Farzana. shaitanrajeem1
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 4, 2005
                                Shaitaan,
                                 
                                I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest.
                                 
                                Farzana.
                                 

                                shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha hay!
                                --------------------

                                Hello Chhoti Sister.

                                Shaitan's work is to confuse and befuddle human minds.

                                You first said that the Finality of Prophet-hood was a peripheral
                                issue to Muslims.

                                Then you got afraid of Naar e Jahanumma, and acknowledged the Finality of the Prophet for yourself.

                                In doing so you left the Ahmadis in the lurch. What will they think
                                about you? A true friend indeed?

                                So now, for you the issue of Ahmadis is their persecution as some
                                one out of Islam's essential belief system.

                                As the Shaitan I care less about what you Muslims and Humans do to
                                each other. The more you fight, the more blood you shed, the happier
                                is I.

                                My mission is to drag you the Bani Adama, to hell with me as you got me expelled from Paradise.

                                As "anti-Shaitan" Mian Waheed said, quoting Quran to Shaitan does not work. If it did, I would not be Shaitan, I would still be the most beloved angel of Allah.

                                And Mian Waheed is impressed by my Chhoti Behan's education. Shaitan plays with the Monkey of the Mind. The more educated one is the better for Shaitaan to take over that mind.

                                Shaitan e Rajeem



                                --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:

                                > Shaitaan

                                > I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to
                                the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of 
                                people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is
                                consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not
                                riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.

                                > Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that
                                is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in
                                the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                                > "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be
                                discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are
                                not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are
                                prizes in plenty with God".


                                > cheers
                                > Farzana.

                                >
                                >
                                > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                                >
                                > You break my heart!
                                >




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                              • Zahid Shahab Ahmed
                                SAHIL magazine Call for Written Contributions In Sahil magazine we will publish the contributions of writers (freelance) from all over the world on the topic
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 5, 2005
                                   

                                  SAHIL magazine

                                  Call for Written Contributions 

                                  In Sahil magazine we will publish the contributions of writers (freelance) from all over the world on the topic of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) in the light of Religion/Religions. Considering the importance of this most important social institution ‘religion’ we at Sahil have decided to dedicate the whole issue on CSA and religion.

                                  We would appreciate the suggestions/action plans on how we can use religion as a tool to protect our children from sexual abuse. If you want to send us your contribution, then send it to us at:

                                  P.O. Box # 235, Islamabad, Pakistan. Or

                                  E-mail: mag@...

                                  You can send your writings in English or Urdu. The editors reserve the right to make the final decision.

                                  Submissions on CSA in the light of religion/religions are welcomed for Sahil’s upcoming issue by 10th May 2005.

                                  Sahil magazine is a quarterly publication of Sahil (NGO). Sahil is the only organization of Pakistan which is exclusively working against the issue of child sexual abuse with the vision that no one has to be a victim of CSA. For information about Sahil please visit: http://www.sahil.org



                                  With regards,
                                  Zahid Shahab Ahmed
                                  (Program Officer Print-Networking)
                                  Address: Sahil, No. 13, First Floor, Al-Babar Centre,
                                  F-8 Markaz, Islamabad, Pakistan.
                                  Tel: +92-51-2260636, 2856950
                                  Cell: +92-300-8506527
                                  Fax: +92-51-2254678
                                  shahab_zahid@...
                                  www.sahil.org


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                                • Shaitan Rajeem
                                  Hello Piyari, Niyari, Dulaari, Aankh ki Taari Chhoti Behan and other friends of Shaitaan! I am happy that following my practice you have become a Spin Master.
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 5, 2005
                                    Hello Piyari, Niyari, Dulaari, Aankh ki Taari Chhoti Behan and other friends of Shaitaan!
                                     
                                    I am happy that following my practice you have become a Spin Master. Your first said that Finality of Prophet Mohamed was Peripheral. Now you say that it has always been essential and integral to your faith.
                                     
                                    And by doing so , you satisfy yourself that you are throwing away the Yoke of Shaitaan.
                                     
                                    No my dear sister it is not that easy. You can not quote something from Quran to Shaitan because he is a "Chikna Ghara". But the Shaitan has no qualm in Quoting Quran to Musalman, so read this , this is what Allah says about such confused Humans:
                                     

                                    036.008
                                    YUSUFALI: We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see).
                                    PICKTHAL: Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.
                                    SHAKIR: Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft.

                                    Can you notice how only poor Yusuf Ali could bring in "La Yabsaroon" in his translation. The two other "experts" just ignored it.

                                    That is the monkey mind of humans. That is the mind I capture.

                                    And when I the Shaitan capture your mind you can not escape. My poison is very sweet.

                                    Remember that Mundiya Sialkotia who said" MeiN Zehr e Halahal ko kabhi keh na saka qand" . He was a wise man.

                                    So when I the Shaitan intrude in your psyche, you the humans start to beleive that you know every thing and close your eyes. In the pride of your knowledge your necks stiffen and you become blind.

                                    That is when I the Shaitan makes you utter apocrypha and Satanic Verses.

                                    I am happy that you are opposing one of my, the Shaitan's, arch enemy, that Dr. Farhat Hashmi who has a Ph D from a UK university in Islam.

                                    And I die with Glee that you forget your own convent background, and condition your mind by assuming that you were taught Quran by the Nuns.

                                    Others may question it but I the Shaitan is proud that my sister is a master of spinning the web of deception.

                                    Deception is one of my first qualities. So will you still say that you are not a passenger of my boat?

                                    The Mundiya Sialkotia also said: Tera dil to hay sanam aashna tujhey kiya miley ga namaaz meiN. Wah Mundiya Silakotya.

                                    My dear sister every Sanam Ashna is my friend. Very difficult to escape from Shaitaan.

                                    Yours truly Shaitaan

                                    Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...> wrote:

                                    Shaitaan,
                                     
                                    I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest.
                                     
                                    Farzana.
                                     

                                    shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                    From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha hay!
                                    --------------------

                                    Hello Chhoti Sister.

                                    Shaitan's work is to confuse and befuddle human minds.

                                    You first said that the Finality of Prophet-hood was a peripheral
                                    issue to Muslims.

                                    Then you got afraid of Naar e Jahanumma, and acknowledged the Finality of the Prophet for yourself.

                                    In doing so you left the Ahmadis in the lurch. What will they think
                                    about you? A true friend indeed?

                                    So now, for you the issue of Ahmadis is their persecution as some
                                    one out of Islam's essential belief system.

                                    As the Shaitan I care less about what you Muslims and Humans do to
                                    each other. The more you fight, the more blood you shed, the happier
                                    is I.

                                    My mission is to drag you the Bani Adama, to hell with me as you got me expelled from Paradise.

                                    As "anti-Shaitan" Mian Waheed said, quoting Quran to Shaitan does not work. If it did, I would not be Shaitan, I would still be the most beloved angel of Allah.

                                    And Mian Waheed is impressed by my Chhoti Behan's education. Shaitan plays with the Monkey of the Mind. The more educated one is the better for Shaitaan to take over that mind.

                                    Shaitan e Rajeem



                                    --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                    <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:

                                    > Shaitaan

                                    > I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to
                                    the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of 
                                    people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is
                                    consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not
                                    riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.

                                    > Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that
                                    is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in
                                    the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                                    > "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be
                                    discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are
                                    not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are
                                    prizes in plenty with God".


                                    > cheers
                                    > Farzana.

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                    > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                                    >
                                    > You break my heart!
                                    >




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                                  • Munawar Shahid
                                    Ahmadis not in Bangladesh but in pakistan also suffering since 1974.The year2004 was no better than previous years in the context of persecution of
                                    Message 17 of 26 , May 6, 2005

                                      Ahmadis not in Bangladesh but in pakistan also suffering since 1974.The year2004 was no better than previous years in the context of persecution of Ahmadis,indeed worse in some respects.Government maintained a deliberate posture of "no concorn" with human rights situation of Ahmadis.DURING THE YEAR 2004,

                                      51 Ahmadis were made to face criminal charges under religious laws or reason of their religious faith.4 person under the Blasphyemy clauses.19 Ahmadis  under Ahmadis-specific laws.27 under other laws,but the cause was their Ahmadis faith.1 under religious law.

                                      THE YEAR 2004 WAS LIKE ANY OTHER PRECEDING YEAR SINCE 1984

                                                                         MUNAWAR ALI SHAHID




                                      >From: Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...>
                                      >Reply-To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                      >To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Ahmadis in Bangla Desh
                                      >Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 16:43:36 -0700 (PDT)
                                      >
                                      >Dear Shaitani
                                      >
                                      >I am a Sunni Muslim and believe in the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh. However, I do not believe in showing intolerance towards those who may have a slightly diferrent understanding of the issue.
                                      >
                                      >Cheers
                                      >Farzana.
                                      >
                                      >shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                      >Hello Chhoti
                                      Behan,
                                      >
                                      >So you also confirmed that you beleive in Allah (Oh miGod), and in
                                      >the judgemnt.
                                      >
                                      >What about the finality of prophethood of Mohammed. Do you beleive
                                      >in that . If not , then you are still my one third sister.
                                      >
                                      >And any one who has me as a friend or relative, is doomed. That is
                                      >Allah's promise. Did'nt he say everywhere in Quran, "Sadaq al Allah
                                      >o azeem". Did'nt he say that" Do not take Shaitaan as friend."
                                      >
                                      >I will be here till the moderator kicks me off as he recently did to
                                      >one of my friends.
                                      >
                                      >Bi Bi.
                                      >Shaitaan1
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >--- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                      ><farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dear Shaitaan
                                      > > Thanks very much for your concern about my fate in the
                                      >heareafter. I will let Allah
                                      be the judge of my actions, certainly
                                      >not you.
                                      > >
                                      > > Regards
                                      > > Farzana.
                                      > >
                                      > > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                      > > Hello sister Farazana!
                                      > > Can I call you my sister?  Thanks for doing my work!!!
                                      > >
                                      > > You wrote:
                                      > > ""the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad pbuh is
                                      >dear
                                      > > to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as it does
                                      > > not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's simple
                                      >theology
                                      > > focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral issue and
                                      >one
                                      > > that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims"
                                      > >
                                      > > Many many thanks. However you are very wrong. In order to do my
                                      >work
                                      > > you need devoted
                                      study of Islamic learning. I can suggest
                                      >Ghazali's
                                      > > Ahyaa to begin with, though I never liked him. He was agood writer.
                                      > >
                                      > > Over my 1400 years of transgressions, Muslims regardless of their
                                      > > sects that I helped create, have continued to firmly believe in:
                                      > >
                                      > > 1. Absolute authority of a Single God that they call Allah.
                                      > > 2. Prophet hood and finality of the prophet hood of Mohamed.
                                      > > 3. A belief in the day of judgment.
                                      > >
                                      > > I have tried my best and the best I could achieve was to sow the
                                      > > confusions of Imamat, Hazir Imam, Mehdi Blah, Blah, Blah. The only
                                      > > people that cracked that dogma a bit are my friends the Ahmedis.
                                      >BTW
                                      > > the Shias are more anti Ahmedis than the Sunnis. No hope there.
                                      > >
                                      > > I am happy that you
                                      are trying to help me. That is why I called
                                      >you
                                      > > my sister.
                                      > >
                                      > > But my sister, the problem is that you will still be forgiven if
                                      >you
                                      > > ask for forgiveness before your death. That is Allah's promise.
                                      > >
                                      > > His promises are firm. He allowed me to deceive the humanity and
                                      >has
                                      > > never interfered. However me it is me who is cursed. I will never
                                      >be
                                      > > able to sit in Jannah. Remember that I was his favorite?
                                      > >
                                      > > Let me read you a poem from one of my disciples Raja Mahdi Ali
                                      >Khan!!
                                      > >
                                      > > MeiN nay aur Shaitaan nay Jhhaanka
                                      > > Jannt ki deewaar pay charrh kar
                                      > > Imli kay ik payr kay neechey
                                      > > Halwey kay ik dhair kay oopar
                                      > > Pehloo meiN ik hoor ko lay kar
                                      > > Mullah bethaa haano raha
                                      thha
                                      > > Mullah bethaa kaanp raha thaa.
                                      > >
                                      > > Baaqi Aaindah.
                                      > > Yours truly Shaitaan.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                      > > <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                                      > > > Hello WF,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Ahmedis continue to suffer injustices at the hands of
                                      > > fundamentalists and bigots all across the subcontinent. I believe
                                      >it
                                      > > is about  time Muslims revived the debate over the Pakistani
                                      > > government's unwarranted decision to declare Ahmedis non Muslims.
                                      > > Certainly, the doctrine of the finality of the prophet Muhammad
                                      >pbuh
                                      > > is dear to Muslims but it is not central to Islam's philosophy, as
                                      > > it does not affect the belief in the five pillars or Islam's
                                      >simple
                                      > >
                                      theology focused on the belief in One God.  It is a peripheral
                                      >issue
                                      > > and one that is somewhat misunderstood by the majority of Muslims.
                                      > > >   As a Sunni Muslim I consider it my duty to speak out against
                                      >the
                                      > > kind of injustice and intolerance directed towards my Ahmedi co-
                                      > > religionists.  Such bigotry denies people the right to live in
                                      >peace
                                      > > and security based on their beliefs and this is unacceptable. I
                                      >hope
                                      > > that more Shia and Sunni Muslims will join me in condemning such
                                      > > atrocities against Ahmedi Muslims.
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                                    • Munawar Shahid
                                      FARZANA AS A HUMAN BEING AND REAL MUSLIM KEEP ON RAISINF VOICE IN FEVOUR OF ALL SUCH COMMINITIES AND DEFEAT THE NEGATIVE APPROACHES .MUNAWAR From: Farzana
                                      Message 18 of 26 , May 6, 2005

                                        FARZANA AS A HUMAN BEING AND REAL MUSLIM KEEP ON RAISINF VOICE IN FEVOUR OF ALL SUCH  COMMINITIES AND DEFEAT THE NEGATIVE APPROACHES.MUNAWAR




                                        >From: Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...>
                                        >Reply-To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                        >To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Ahmadis in Bangla Desh
                                        >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
                                        >
                                        >Shaitaan,
                                        >
                                        >I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest.
                                        >
                                        >Farzana.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                        >From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha
                                        hay!
                                        >--------------------
                                        >
                                        >Hello Chhoti Sister.
                                        >
                                        >Shaitan's work is to confuse and befuddle human minds.
                                        >
                                        >You first said that the Finality of Prophet-hood was a peripheral
                                        >issue to Muslims.
                                        >
                                        >Then you got afraid of Naar e Jahanumma, and acknowledged the Finality of the Prophet for yourself.
                                        >
                                        >In doing so you left the Ahmadis in the lurch. What will they think
                                        >about you? A true friend indeed?
                                        >
                                        >So now, for you the issue of Ahmadis is their persecution as some
                                        >one out of Islam's essential belief system.
                                        >
                                        >As the Shaitan I care less about what you Muslims and Humans do to
                                        >each other. The more you fight, the more blood you shed, the happier
                                        >is I.
                                        >
                                        >My mission is to drag you the Bani Adama, to hell with me as you got me expelled from
                                        Paradise.
                                        >
                                        >As "anti-Shaitan" Mian Waheed said, quoting Quran to Shaitan does not work. If it did, I would not be Shaitan, I would still be the most beloved angel of Allah.
                                        >
                                        >And Mian Waheed is impressed by my Chhoti Behan's education. Shaitan plays with the Monkey of the Mind. The more educated one is the better for Shaitaan to take over that mind.
                                        >
                                        >Shaitan e Rajeem
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >--- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                        ><farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Shaitaan
                                        > >
                                        > > I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to
                                        >the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of
                                        >people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is
                                        >consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely
                                        not
                                        >riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.
                                        > >
                                        > > Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that
                                        >is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in
                                        >the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                                        > > "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be
                                        >discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are
                                        >not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are
                                        >prizes in plenty with God".
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > cheers
                                        > > Farzana.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                        > > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                                        > >
                                        > > You break my heart!
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        Expression: Join PEN Canada today!
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                                      • Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                        Shaitaan Rajeem, My dil is not Sanam Ashna Please do not accuse me of committing shirk . You have obviously read my article on Farhat Hashmi which was
                                        Message 19 of 26 , May 6, 2005
                                          Shaitaan Rajeem,
                                           
                                          My "dil" is not "Sanam Ashna" Please do not accuse me of committing "shirk". You have obviously read my article on Farhat Hashmi which was quoted by Dr . Khalid Hassan in Pakistan, but please read my other article entilted "The Distinctive Features of Islamic Monotheism" if you get a chance.
                                           
                                          I am not a spin master at all. I have consistently affirmed the finality of the prophet pbuh as part of MY belief system as a Sunni. However, I continue to assert that  the central idea in Islam is not the finality of the prophet pbuh, it is the Oneness of Allah. Throughout the Qur'anic discourse, it is the doctrine of the Oneness of Allah that is reinforced and the issue of the finality of the prophet, whom we all love, is given a passing reference. This is what I mean by suggesting that it is a "peripheral" issue.
                                           
                                          What I also stated in my original posting is that most Muslims misunderstand the Ahmediyah position on the finality of the prophet. Ahmediyat has also evolved over the last hundred years or so, and the way things stand today, Ahmedis believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be "Masih Mowood" rather than a prophet in his own right. The concept of the Mahdi, or the eschatological reformer/messenger is rooted in hadith which Sunnis also acknowledge. Ghulam Ahmed, according to Ahmedis is that eschatological, albeit ancillary "prophet"commissioned to revive the Shariah of Muhammd pbuh. I do not accept their rationale but in my view the use of the word "nabi" for him, according to contemporary Ahmedis is largely a matter of semantics.  Again, I think dialogue is the answer and perhaps a further revisitation of the Ahmedi viewpoint will come about as a result of it.
                                           
                                          Thanks for all the compliments! Much appreciated.
                                           
                                          Farzana.

                                          Shaitan Rajeem <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                          Hello Piyari, Niyari, Dulaari, Aankh ki Taari Chhoti Behan and other friends of Shaitaan!
                                           
                                          I am happy that following my practice you have become a Spin Master. Your first said that Finality of Prophet Mohamed was Peripheral. Now you say that it has always been essential and integral to your faith.
                                           
                                          And by doing so , you satisfy yourself that you are throwing away the Yoke of Shaitaan.
                                           
                                          No my dear sister it is not that easy. You can not quote something from Quran to Shaitan because he is a "Chikna Ghara". But the Shaitan has no qualm in Quoting Quran to Musalman, so read this , this is what Allah says about such confused Humans:
                                           

                                          036.008
                                          YUSUFALI: We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see).
                                          PICKTHAL: Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.
                                          SHAKIR: Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft.

                                          Can you notice how only poor Yusuf Ali could bring in "La Yabsaroon" in his translation. The two other "experts" just ignored it.

                                          That is the monkey mind of humans. That is the mind I capture.

                                          And when I the Shaitan capture your mind you can not escape. My poison is very sweet.

                                          Remember that Mundiya Sialkotia who said" MeiN Zehr e Halahal ko kabhi keh na saka qand" . He was a wise man.

                                          So when I the Shaitan intrude in your psyche, you the humans start to beleive that you know every thing and close your eyes. In the pride of your knowledge your necks stiffen and you become blind.

                                          That is when I the Shaitan makes you utter apocrypha and Satanic Verses.

                                          I am happy that you are opposing one of my, the Shaitan's, arch enemy, that Dr. Farhat Hashmi who has a Ph D from a UK university in Islam.

                                          And I die with Glee that you forget your own convent background, and condition your mind by assuming that you were taught Quran by the Nuns.

                                          Others may question it but I the Shaitan is proud that my sister is a master of spinning the web of deception.

                                          Deception is one of my first qualities. So will you still say that you are not a passenger of my boat?

                                          The Mundiya Sialkotia also said: Tera dil to hay sanam aashna tujhey kiya miley ga namaaz meiN. Wah Mundiya Silakotya.

                                          My dear sister every Sanam Ashna is my friend. Very difficult to escape from Shaitaan.

                                          Yours truly Shaitaan

                                          Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...> wrote:

                                          Shaitaan,
                                           
                                          I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest.
                                           
                                          Farzana.
                                           

                                          shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                          From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha hay!
                                          --------------------

                                          Hello Chhoti Sister.

                                          Shaitan's work is to confuse and befuddle human minds.

                                          You first said that the Finality of Prophet-hood was a peripheral
                                          issue to Muslims.

                                          Then you got afraid of Naar e Jahanumma, and acknowledged the Finality of the Prophet for yourself.

                                          In doing so you left the Ahmadis in the lurch. What will they think
                                          about you? A true friend indeed?

                                          So now, for you the issue of Ahmadis is their persecution as some
                                          one out of Islam's essential belief system.

                                          As the Shaitan I care less about what you Muslims and Humans do to
                                          each other. The more you fight, the more blood you shed, the happier
                                          is I.

                                          My mission is to drag you the Bani Adama, to hell with me as you got me expelled from Paradise.

                                          As "anti-Shaitan" Mian Waheed said, quoting Quran to Shaitan does not work. If it did, I would not be Shaitan, I would still be the most beloved angel of Allah.

                                          And Mian Waheed is impressed by my Chhoti Behan's education. Shaitan plays with the Monkey of the Mind. The more educated one is the better for Shaitaan to take over that mind.

                                          Shaitan e Rajeem



                                          --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                          <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:

                                          > Shaitaan

                                          > I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to
                                          the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of 
                                          people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is
                                          consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not
                                          riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.

                                          > Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that
                                          is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in
                                          the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                                          > "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be
                                          discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are
                                          not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are
                                          prizes in plenty with God".


                                          > cheers
                                          > Farzana.

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                          > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                                          >
                                          > You break my heart!
                                          >




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                                        • shaitanrajeem1
                                          Piyari Chhoti Behan Farazana, Thanks. By spinning it again, you have chosen to remain in my, the Shaitaan s boat. I know that you are my little sister. How
                                          Message 20 of 26 , May 6, 2005
                                            Piyari Chhoti Behan Farazana,

                                            Thanks. By spinning it again, you have chosen to remain in my, the
                                            Shaitaan's' boat.

                                            I know that you are my little sister. How can you go away. You are
                                            with me as long as you keep deceiving yourself, and others.

                                            And what about your proclamations re Farhat Hashmi and your Nuns'
                                            taught Quran. I worked so hard on you on that.

                                            By referring to Khalid Hassan's reference to your piece. You confirm
                                            the Ihghlalan ala Aanaqihim and La Yabsaroon. Your neck is stiff and
                                            straight in the Satanic Yoke. Keep doing that and I keep dancing
                                            with happiness.

                                            The poor Mundia Sialkotia's spirit will be in pain, since by Sanam Ashna he did not just mean a Mushrik. Being the poet that he was he wanted to use Sanam Ashna in its very many shades. Digressor was one such shade.

                                            To me whether one is a digressor or Mushrik, it is the same thing. Such a person is in my domain any way. So I am happy. And you make me happy every minute of it.

                                            You are such a sweet Chhoti Bhinno!

                                            Chhotey shaitaan kay hawaaley.
                                            Shaitaan




                                            --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                            <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                                            > Shaitaan Rajeem,
                                            >
                                            > My "dil" is not "Sanam Ashna" Please do not accuse me of
                                            committing "shirk". You have obviously read my article on Farhat
                                            Hashmi which was quoted by Dr . Khalid Hassan in Pakistan, but
                                            please read my other article entilted "The Distinctive Features of
                                            Islamic Monotheism" if you get a chance.
                                            >
                                            > I am not a spin master at all. I have consistently affirmed the
                                            finality of the prophet pbuh as part of MY belief system as a Sunni.
                                            However, I continue to assert that the central idea in Islam is not
                                            the finality of the prophet pbuh, it is the Oneness of Allah.
                                            Throughout the Qur'anic discourse, it is the doctrine of the Oneness
                                            of Allah that is reinforced and the issue of the finality of the
                                            prophet, whom we all love, is given a passing reference. This is
                                            what I mean by suggesting that it is a "peripheral" issue.
                                            >
                                            > What I also stated in my original posting is that most Muslims
                                            misunderstand the Ahmediyah position on the finality of the prophet.
                                            Ahmediyat has also evolved over the last hundred years or so, and
                                            the way things stand today, Ahmedis believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to
                                            be "Masih Mowood" rather than a prophet in his own right. The
                                            concept of the Mahdi, or the eschatological reformer/messenger is
                                            rooted in hadith which Sunnis also acknowledge. Ghulam Ahmed,
                                            according to Ahmedis is that eschatological, albeit
                                            ancillary "prophet"commissioned to revive the Shariah of Muhammd
                                            pbuh. I do not accept their rationale but in my view the use of the
                                            word "nabi" for him, according to contemporary Ahmedis is largely a
                                            matter of semantics. Again, I think dialogue is the answer and
                                            perhaps a further revisitation of the Ahmedi viewpoint will come
                                            about as a result of it.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for all the compliments! Much appreciated.
                                            >
                                            > Farzana.
                                            >
                                            > Shaitan Rajeem <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                            > Hello Piyari, Niyari, Dulaari, Aankh ki Taari Chhoti Behan and
                                            other friends of Shaitaan!
                                            >
                                            > I am happy that following my practice you have become a Spin
                                            Master. Your first said that Finality of Prophet Mohamed was
                                            Peripheral. Now you say that it has always been essential and
                                            integral to your faith.
                                            >
                                            > And by doing so , you satisfy yourself that you are throwing away
                                            the Yoke of Shaitaan.
                                            >
                                            > No my dear sister it is not that easy. You can not quote something
                                            from Quran to Shaitan because he is a "Chikna Ghara". But the
                                            Shaitan has no qualm in Quoting Quran to Musalman, so read this ,
                                            this is what Allah says about such confused Humans:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 036.008
                                            > YUSUFALI: We have put yokes round their necks right up to their
                                            chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see).
                                            > PICKTHAL: Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the
                                            chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.
                                            > SHAKIR: Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these
                                            reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft.
                                            >
                                            > Can you notice how only poor Yusuf Ali could bring in "La
                                            Yabsaroon" in his translation. The two other "experts" just ignored
                                            it.
                                            >
                                            > That is the monkey mind of humans. That is the mind I capture.
                                            >
                                            > And when I the Shaitan capture your mind you can not escape. My
                                            poison is very sweet.
                                            >
                                            > Remember that Mundiya Sialkotia who said" MeiN Zehr e Halahal ko
                                            kabhi keh na saka qand" . He was a wise man.
                                            >
                                            > So when I the Shaitan intrude in your psyche, you the humans start
                                            to beleive that you know every thing and close your eyes. In the
                                            pride of your knowledge your necks stiffen and you become blind.
                                            >
                                            > That is when I the Shaitan makes you utter apocrypha and Satanic
                                            Verses.
                                            >
                                            > I am happy that you are opposing one of my, the Shaitan's, arch
                                            enemy, that Dr. Farhat Hashmi who has a Ph D from a UK university in
                                            Islam.
                                            >
                                            > And I die with Glee that you forget your own convent background,
                                            and condition your mind by assuming that you were taught Quran by
                                            the Nuns.
                                            >
                                            > Others may question it but I the Shaitan is proud that my sister
                                            is a master of spinning the web of deception.
                                            >
                                            > Deception is one of my first qualities. So will you still say that
                                            you are not a passenger of my boat?
                                            >
                                            > The Mundiya Sialkotia also said: Tera dil to hay sanam aashna
                                            tujhey kiya miley ga namaaz meiN. Wah Mundiya Silakotya.
                                            >
                                            > My dear sister every Sanam Ashna is my friend. Very difficult to
                                            escape from Shaitaan.
                                            >
                                            > Yours truly Shaitaan
                                            >
                                            > Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Shaitaan,
                                            >
                                            > I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of
                                            Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest.
                                            >
                                            > Farzana.
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • jhana7
                                            Dear Minawar Shahid well your facts figures may be correct.but at the moment Pakistan and Pakistanis are suffering much more than your figures.to start with
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 6, 2005
                                              Dear Minawar Shahid
                                              well your facts figures may be correct.but at the moment Pakistan and
                                              Pakistanis are suffering much more than your figures.to start with the
                                              present system of governance is not within spirit of the constitution
                                              of Pakistan.Dare I say and also according to many legal experts
                                              pakistan has an unconstitutional system of government.what is happening
                                              to average pakistani,be it a sunni,shia,deobandi,brelavi etc etc is
                                              cruel.at local level every power has been given to
                                              waderas,chaudrys,maliks rajas etc etc by introducing highly faulty and
                                              shamlessly inept local government system with no check on police.
                                              While I quite agree with Farzana sahiba;we must not be judgemental and
                                              must not persecute due to difference of opionions about political or
                                              religious issues;but I dont agree with your idea of providing
                                              figures.because this is also a fact that ahmedis are operating huge
                                              businesses,holding properties and functioning at very important
                                              positions in Pakistan.Ahmedis are as good or as bad as any other
                                              Pakistani rather as a community they are much better off than average
                                              Pakistanis.
                                              regards
                                              jz
                                            • Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                              Munnawar Thanks for your much needed support. Farzana. Munawar Shahid wrote: FARZANA AS A HUMAN BEING AND REAL MUSLIM KEEP ON
                                              Message 22 of 26 , May 7, 2005
                                                Munnawar
                                                Thanks for your much needed support.
                                                Farzana.

                                                Munawar Shahid <munawarshahid1@...> wrote:

                                                FARZANA AS A HUMAN BEING AND REAL MUSLIM KEEP ON RAISINF VOICE IN FEVOUR OF ALL SUCH  COMMINITIES AND DEFEAT THE NEGATIVE APPROACHES.MUNAWAR




                                                >From: Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...>
                                                >Reply-To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                                >To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: Re: [Writers Forum] Ahmadis in Bangla Desh
                                                >Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:51:15 -0700 (PDT)
                                                >
                                                >Shaitaan,
                                                >
                                                >I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest.
                                                >
                                                >Farzana.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                                >From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha hay!
                                                >--------------------
                                                >
                                                >Hello Chhoti Sister.
                                                >
                                                >Shaitan's work is to confuse and befuddle human minds.
                                                >
                                                >You first said that the Finality of Prophet-hood was a peripheral
                                                >issue to Muslims.
                                                >
                                                >Then you got afraid of Naar e Jahanumma, and acknowledged the Finality of the Prophet for yourself.
                                                >
                                                >In doing so you left the Ahmadis in the lurch. What will they think
                                                >about you? A true friend indeed?
                                                >
                                                >So now, for you the issue of Ahmadis is their persecution as some
                                                >one out of Islam's essential belief system.
                                                >
                                                >As the Shaitan I care less about what you Muslims and Humans do to
                                                >each other. The more you fight, the more blood you shed, the happier
                                                >is I.
                                                >
                                                >My mission is to drag you the Bani Adama, to hell with me as you got me expelled from Paradise.
                                                >
                                                >As "anti-Shaitan" Mian Waheed said, quoting Quran to Shaitan does not work. If it did, I would not be Shaitan, I would still be the most beloved angel of Allah.
                                                >
                                                >And Mian Waheed is impressed by my Chhoti Behan's education. Shaitan plays with the Monkey of the Mind. The more educated one is the better for Shaitaan to take over that mind.
                                                >
                                                >Shaitan e Rajeem
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >--- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                                ><farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Shaitaan
                                                > >
                                                > > I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to
                                                >the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of
                                                >people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is
                                                >consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not
                                                >riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.
                                                > >
                                                > > Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that
                                                >is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in
                                                >the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                                                > > "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be
                                                >discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are
                                                >not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are
                                                >prizes in plenty with God".
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > cheers
                                                > > Farzana.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                                > > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                                                > >
                                                > > You break my heart!
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
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                                              • Tidy Link
                                                Friends The present debate between Shaitaniat and Insianiat is quite an old issue, but if it is to be worth anything it must continue within the framework
                                                Message 23 of 26 , May 7, 2005
                                                  Friends
                                                   
                                                  The present debate between 'Shaitaniat' and ' Insianiat' is quite an old issue, but if it is to be worth anything it must continue within the framework of logic and reason and not semantics. The exploration and understanding of the idea is one thing yet its distortion and contortion is where the trouble begins. This usually happens when a basic and simple statement is not seen in the right context but expounded to the exploration of some hidden meaning or agenda.
                                                   
                                                  Religions primary objective is to establish a rapport between the 'creator' and the 'created', and all religions are based on  the basic axioms of humanity. The basis of monothesitc religions is the Oneness of the Source, as Farzana sahiba has rightly pointed out.  The attributes of this Deity are multifarious and each religion, depending on the needs and conditions of its time, highlights some and lays extra emphasis on them. Religions have also tried to conceptualise the Deity, and monothestic religions have promoted an 'anthropomorphic' God. The various concepts trying to describe the 'Creator' have evolved over the ages, and seem to have refined with the development of religious thought and the intellectual capacity of the period. The concept given by Qur'an in Sura 112.2 comes closest to the Nature of a 'Supreme Being'. I wish to share with you my understanding and belief as derived from that Sura. 

                                                                                              Chapter 112

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Sura AL �Ikhlas  has been described by some to be the essence of the Qur�an. Let us examine that and see what it may mean. It is said that it was the tradition of Arabs to ascribe their gods with attributes and  these  attributes of each deity  were then highlighted, praised and  worshiped. Tradition has it that the Prophet was questioned on several occasions to define �Allah�, the God he was propagating, and to describe His attributes so that the people could understand Him. The revelation of Sura Al-Ikhlas must have silenced them. Now whether they fathomed its meaning and concept is quite another matter. Till this day the depth of the ocean of its meaning is being probed and different people come up with different jewels from it. This has been very aptly described in the Urdu verse:

                                                             Dair main tou haram main tou,

                                                             Aarsh pay toe zameen pay tou.

                                                             jis ki pounch jehan talak

                                                             ous kay liaye waheen pay tou�.

                                                   

                                                  You reside in temples, and in the mosque too,

                                                  You are in the sky and on land also be you. 

                                                  �However far is anyones reach,

                                                  that much closer he gets to You�.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  112          Pure Faith

                                                  Al_Ikhlas:  Makki

                                                   

                                                   

                                                            In the name of Allah, most benevolent, ever merciful.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                            SAY:  �HE IS God

                                                            The one the most unique,

                                                            

                                                             The authenticity that it is a revelation is establishrd by the very first word-Say- asking the receptor to announce exactly what is being told. The mentioning of the word �say� itself shows the innocence and simplicity of the votary, exactly like an innocent baby who repeats even the command word itself. The narration of the message verbatim is the  whole beauty of it and reaffirms the revelation is from the over-self, in its  entirety and original form. It also goes to prove that    He is--The One , the Source, the Only Al-Haiyoo  Al-Qayyum i.e.( the living, eternal, self- subsisting  ever-sustaining).

                                                   

                                                           

                                                           

                                                   2. God the immanently indispensable,

                                                   

                                                               This ayat  in my opinion is the pivot around which the philosophy of Islam revolves. As said earlier it has different connotation to different people. ( It is to be kept in mind that each of us is an individual and that we can not devoid our views from subjectivity however much we may wish to remain objective and neutral, and hence the assigned meaning reflects the basis of the thoughts of the thinker.)

                                                   

                                                  Some translate �As Samad� to be �God � the totally un-needful�   ( the classic orthodox view ). They understand God as beyond everything, completely aloof and un- needy.

                                                  Then it is also described as �God � the uncaused cause  ( Karen Armstrong)

                                                  And also defined as � God � the unmoved mover   (Plato)

                                                  It can be seen that there are as many view- points as there are concepts. However, to say �God the immanently indispensable� means He is the inherent necessity of each and every thing, and that nothing is possible without Him. This seems the most appealing, because as we have seen above this concept makes God the pivot and the undeniable  essential element, the inherent necessity of all things and everything.  The more one tries to conceptualize this the more one appreciates the uniqueness and the immensity of the Deity.

                                                   

                                                            3. He has begotten no one,     

                                                            and is begotten of none.

                                                   

                                                             This means He has not produced any one the same way we humans produce; through the reproductive process, and so also He has not come into being by that method. For if it were so He would need a mate to copulate, negating the very basis of the theory  of oneness. He has His own way of producing things. For He says �Kun� fa ya �Kun�. i.e. �Be� and it �Is�. The whole concept of this command and  its  resultant outcome shall be discussed in later chapters.

                                                   

                                                             4. There is no one comparable to Him.�

                                                   

                                                            Being the only one of His kind obviously leaves no room for    comparison.

                                                  Were  a comparison available there would not be the individuality and         uniqueness of  the Being. This then reaffirms the singularity of His self and also His actions.

                                                           

                                                  It may be mentioned in the passing that Sura �Al Ikhlas� gets closest to conceptualizing the Supreme Deity � if ever a comprehending of that reality is at all possible. It is noteworthy however, that the Qur�an is perhaps the only source which defines so closely and clearly the attributes and nature of the Almighty in such a vivid, thought provoking and lucid manner.

                                                   

                                                  If the above is agreed with then it will also be agreed that the one who gave this concept must have been a genius of sorts. If Muhammad  brought and gave this concept his credibility at finality of Prophethood is unquestionable, because it is well neigh impossible to improve upon this concept of the DEITY.

                                                   
                                                  Regards
                                                   
                                                  Ziauddin Ahmed

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...> wrote:
                                                  Shaitaan Rajeem,
                                                   
                                                  My "dil" is not "Sanam Ashna" Please do not accuse me of committing "shirk". You have obviously read my article on Farhat Hashmi which was quoted by Dr . Khalid Hassan in Pakistan, but please read my other article entilted "The Distinctive Features of Islamic Monotheism" if you get a chance.
                                                   
                                                  I am not a spin master at all. I have consistently affirmed the finality of the prophet pbuh as part of MY belief system as a Sunni. However, I continue to assert that  the central idea in Islam is not the finality of the prophet pbuh, it is the Oneness of Allah. Throughout the Qur'anic discourse, it is the doctrine of the Oneness of Allah that is reinforced and the issue of the finality of the prophet, whom we all love, is given a passing reference. This is what I mean by suggesting that it is a "peripheral" issue.
                                                   
                                                  What I also stated in my original posting is that most Muslims misunderstand the Ahmediyah position on the finality of the prophet. Ahmediyat has also evolved over the last hundred years or so, and the way things stand today, Ahmedis believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be "Masih Mowood" rather than a prophet in his own right. The concept of the Mahdi, or the eschatological reformer/messenger is rooted in hadith which Sunnis also acknowledge. Ghulam Ahmed, according to Ahmedis is that eschatological, albeit ancillary "prophet"commissioned to revive the Shariah of Muhammd pbuh. I do not accept their rationale but in my view the use of the word "nabi" for him, according to contemporary Ahmedis is largely a matter of semantics.  Again, I think dialogue is the answer and perhaps a further revisitation of the Ahmedi viewpoint will come about as a result of it.
                                                   
                                                  Thanks for all the compliments! Much appreciated.
                                                   
                                                  Farzana.

                                                  Shaitan Rajeem <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                                  Hello Piyari, Niyari, Dulaari, Aankh ki Taari Chhoti Behan and other friends of Shaitaan!
                                                   
                                                  I am happy that following my practice you have become a Spin Master. Your first said that Finality of Prophet Mohamed was Peripheral. Now you say that it has always been essential and integral to your faith.
                                                   
                                                  And by doing so , you satisfy yourself that you are throwing away the Yoke of Shaitaan.
                                                   
                                                  No my dear sister it is not that easy. You can not quote something from Quran to Shaitan because he is a "Chikna Ghara". But the Shaitan has no qualm in Quoting Quran to Musalman, so read this , this is what Allah says about such confused Humans:
                                                   

                                                  036.008
                                                  YUSUFALI: We have put yokes round their necks right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up (and they cannot see).
                                                  PICKTHAL: Lo! We have put on their necks carcans reaching unto the chins, so that they are made stiff-necked.
                                                  SHAKIR: Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft.

                                                  Can you notice how only poor Yusuf Ali could bring in "La Yabsaroon" in his translation. The two other "experts" just ignored it.

                                                  That is the monkey mind of humans. That is the mind I capture.

                                                  And when I the Shaitan capture your mind you can not escape. My poison is very sweet.

                                                  Remember that Mundiya Sialkotia who said" MeiN Zehr e Halahal ko kabhi keh na saka qand" . He was a wise man.

                                                  So when I the Shaitan intrude in your psyche, you the humans start to beleive that you know every thing and close your eyes. In the pride of your knowledge your necks stiffen and you become blind.

                                                  That is when I the Shaitan makes you utter apocrypha and Satanic Verses.

                                                  I am happy that you are opposing one of my, the Shaitan's, arch enemy, that Dr. Farhat Hashmi who has a Ph D from a UK university in Islam.

                                                  And I die with Glee that you forget your own convent background, and condition your mind by assuming that you were taught Quran by the Nuns.

                                                  Others may question it but I the Shaitan is proud that my sister is a master of spinning the web of deception.

                                                  Deception is one of my first qualities. So will you still say that you are not a passenger of my boat?

                                                  The Mundiya Sialkotia also said: Tera dil to hay sanam aashna tujhey kiya miley ga namaaz meiN. Wah Mundiya Silakotya.

                                                  My dear sister every Sanam Ashna is my friend. Very difficult to escape from Shaitaan.

                                                  Yours truly Shaitaan

                                                  Farzana Hassan Shahid <farzanaqazi@...> wrote:

                                                  Shaitaan,
                                                   
                                                  I have always maintained the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh. It is not an afterthought as you suggest.
                                                   
                                                  Farzana.
                                                   

                                                  shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@...> wrote:
                                                  From Shaitan to his chhoti sister Farzana & other potential disciples at this interesting Forum. Bara Maza Aa raha hay!
                                                  --------------------

                                                  Hello Chhoti Sister.

                                                  Shaitan's work is to confuse and befuddle human minds.

                                                  You first said that the Finality of Prophet-hood was a peripheral
                                                  issue to Muslims.

                                                  Then you got afraid of Naar e Jahanumma, and acknowledged the Finality of the Prophet for yourself.

                                                  In doing so you left the Ahmadis in the lurch. What will they think
                                                  about you? A true friend indeed?

                                                  So now, for you the issue of Ahmadis is their persecution as some
                                                  one out of Islam's essential belief system.

                                                  As the Shaitan I care less about what you Muslims and Humans do to
                                                  each other. The more you fight, the more blood you shed, the happier
                                                  is I.

                                                  My mission is to drag you the Bani Adama, to hell with me as you got me expelled from Paradise.

                                                  As "anti-Shaitan" Mian Waheed said, quoting Quran to Shaitan does not work. If it did, I would not be Shaitan, I would still be the most beloved angel of Allah.

                                                  And Mian Waheed is impressed by my Chhoti Behan's education. Shaitan plays with the Monkey of the Mind. The more educated one is the better for Shaitaan to take over that mind.

                                                  Shaitan e Rajeem



                                                  --- In Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Farzana Hassan Shahid
                                                  <farzanaqazi@y...> wrote:

                                                  > Shaitaan

                                                  > I do not wish to prolong this debate but the correct response to
                                                  the Ahmedi view should be dialogue, not harrassment or slaughter of 
                                                  people, who are a vulnerble minority in Bangladesh.  My response is
                                                  consistent with Islam's spirit of tolerance. NO, I am definitely not
                                                  riding your boat by speaking out to defend innocent lives.

                                                  > Also, we have no right to tell people they are not Muslim if that
                                                  is how they percieves themselves. This is also a concept rooted in
                                                  the Qur'an.  Allow me to to quote verse 94 from Surah Nisa
                                                  > "O Beleivers, when you go out on a journey in the way of God, be
                                                  discreet and do not say to anyone who greets you in peace, " you are
                                                  not a believer". You desire the gain of earthly life but there are
                                                  prizes in plenty with God".


                                                  > cheers
                                                  > Farzana.

                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > shaitanrajeem1 <shaitanrajeem1@y...> wrote:
                                                  > Hello Chhoti Behan,
                                                  >
                                                  > You break my heart!
                                                  >




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                                                • Munawar Shahid
                                                  Dear SHAHAB SAHIB,THANKS FOR REMINDER.I WROTE A LETTER TO YOUR OFFICE ALREADY.I M WRITING ARTICAL ON SAID SUBJECT AND WILL REACH TO U BY END OF THIS MONTH.IT
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , May 7, 2005

                                                    Dear SHAHAB SAHIB,THANKS FOR REMINDER.I WROTE A LETTER TO YOUR OFFICE ALREADY.I M WRITING ARTICAL ON SAID SUBJECT AND WILL REACH TO U BY END OF THIS MONTH.IT WILL B IN URDU LANGUAGE. MUNAWAR ALI SHAHID




                                                    >From: Zahid Shahab Ahmed <shahab_zahid@...>
                                                    >Reply-To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >Subject: [Writers Forum] Call for Written Contributions
                                                    >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 04:28:36 -0700 (PDT)
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >SAHIL magazine
                                                    >
                                                    >Call for Written Contributions
                                                    >
                                                    >In Sahil magazine we will publish the contributions of writers (freelance) from all over the world on the topic of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) in the light of Religion/Religions. Considering the importance of this most important social institution #8216;religion#8217; we at
                                                    Sahil have decided to dedicate the whole issue on CSA and religion.
                                                    >
                                                    >We would appreciate the suggestions/action plans on how we can use religion as a tool to protect our children from sexual abuse. If you want to send us your contribution, then send it to us at:
                                                    >
                                                    >P.O. Box # 235, Islamabad, Pakistan. Or
                                                    >
                                                    >E-mail: mag@...
                                                    >
                                                    >You can send your writings in English or Urdu. The editors reserve the right to make the final decision.
                                                    >
                                                    >Submissions on CSA in the light of religion/religions are welcomed for Sahil#8217;s upcoming issue by 10th May 2005.
                                                    >
                                                    >Sahil magazine is a quarterly publication of Sahil (NGO). Sahil is the only organization of Pakistan which is exclusively working against the issue of child sexual abuse with the vision that no one has to be a victim of CSA. For information about Sahil please
                                                    visit: http://www.sahil.org
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >With regards,
                                                    >Zahid Shahab Ahmed
                                                    >(Program Officer Print-Networking)
                                                    >Address: Sahil, No. 13, First Floor, Al-Babar Centre,
                                                    >F-8 Markaz, Islamabad, Pakistan.
                                                    >Tel: +92-51-2260636, 2856950
                                                    >Cell: +92-300-8506527
                                                    >Fax: +92-51-2254678
                                                    >shahab_zahid@...
                                                    >www.sahil.org
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >---------------------------------
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                                                  • Zahid Shahab Ahmed
                                                    Dear Munawar Shahid, I am really thankful to you for confirming your participation in Sahil magazine s upcoming issue. Please, feel to write in Urdu because
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , May 8, 2005
                                                      Dear Munawar Shahid,
                                                      I am really thankful to you for confirming your participation in Sahil magazine's upcoming issue. Please, feel to write in Urdu because the magazine would be published in both English and Urdu.
                                                      I am anxiously looking forward to receive your article by the end of May 2005.


                                                      Munawar Shahid <munawarshahid1@...> wrote:

                                                      Dear SHAHAB SAHIB,THANKS FOR REMINDER.I WROTE A LETTER TO YOUR OFFICE ALREADY.I M WRITING ARTICAL ON SAID SUBJECT AND WILL REACH TO U BY END OF THIS MONTH.IT WILL B IN URDU LANGUAGE. MUNAWAR ALI SHAHID




                                                      >From: Zahid Shahab Ahmed <shahab_zahid@...>
                                                      >Reply-To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >To: Writers_Forum@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >Subject: [Writers Forum] Call for Written Contributions
                                                      >Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 04:28:36 -0700 (PDT)
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >SAHIL magazine
                                                      >
                                                      >Call for Written Contributions
                                                      >
                                                      >In Sahil magazine we will publish the contributions of writers (freelance) from all over the world on the topic of Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) in the light of Religion/Religions. Considering the importance of this most important social institution #8216;religion#8217; we at Sahil have decided to dedicate the whole issue on CSA and religion.
                                                      >
                                                      >We would appreciate the suggestions/action plans on how we can use religion as a tool to protect our children from sexual abuse. If you want to send us your contribution, then send it to us at:
                                                      >
                                                      >P.O. Box # 235, Islamabad, Pakistan. Or
                                                      >
                                                      >E-mail: mag@...
                                                      >
                                                      >You can send your writings in English or Urdu. The editors reserve the right to make the final decision.
                                                      >
                                                      >Submissions on CSA in the light of religion/religions are welcomed for Sahil#8217;s upcoming issue by 10th May 2005.
                                                      >
                                                      >Sahil magazine is a quarterly publication of Sahil (NGO). Sahil is the only organization of Pakistan which is exclusively working against the issue of child sexual abuse with the vision that no one has to be a victim of CSA. For information about Sahil please visit: http://www.sahil.org
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >With regards,
                                                      >Zahid Shahab Ahmed
                                                      >(Program Officer Print-Networking)
                                                      >Address: Sahil, No. 13, First Floor, Al-Babar Centre,
                                                      >F-8 Markaz, Islamabad, Pakistan.
                                                      >Tel: +92-51-2260636, 2856950
                                                      >Cell: +92-300-8506527
                                                      >Fax: +92-51-2254678
                                                      >shahab_zahid@...
                                                      >www.sahil.org
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >---------------------------------
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                                                      With regards,
                                                      Zahid Shahab Ahmed
                                                      (Program Officer Print-Networking)
                                                      Address: Sahil, No. 13, First Floor, Al-Babar Centre,
                                                      F-8 Markaz, Islamabad, Pakistan.
                                                      Tel: +92-51-2260636, 2856950
                                                      Cell: +92-300-8506527
                                                      Fax: +92-51-2254678
                                                      shahab_zahid@...
                                                      www.sahil.org


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                                                    • zauqui zauqui
                                                      BHAI MERA BIO DATA MILA YA NAHI SAHIL KIS NAUYIAT KA RASALA HAI DEKHNE KA KHAHISHMAND HUN ZAUQUI __________________________________________________ Do You
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , May 13, 2005


                                                        BHAI
                                                        MERA BIO DATA MILA YA NAHI
                                                        SAHIL KIS NAUYIAT KA RASALA HAI
                                                        DEKHNE KA KHAHISHMAND HUN
                                                        ZAUQUI

                                                        __________________________________________________
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