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Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land

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  • Michael Yeates
    There is also more to this ... using some Australian info. 1. Often the price of a site per se reflects not only the current but also any potential development
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 25, 2003
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      There is also more to this ... using some Australian info.

      1. Often the price of a site per se reflects not only the current but also
      any potential development rights so people may be buying both a current
      utility as well as a future redevelopment option ... ie in the second case,
      gaining a speculative windfall on the greater cost achieveable from the land
      value only without any betterment tax ... incidentally in doing so, the
      complete "cost" of the existing building changes from being an asset to a
      liability or cost simply on that decision whether to redevelop or not.

      2. The other issue is the view that good public transport and walking and
      cycling is not necessarily linked to housing and population density ie that
      good other-than-car alternatives can be provided at suburban densities ... I
      would suggest that the reason that these facilities seem expensive is that
      roads and the real full costs thereof are grossly underpriced eg one is the
      cost impacts of children no longer able or allowed to walk or cycle to
      school but how do we price the social and educational disbenefits? It does
      however require a different type of suburban road network to that
      traditionally designed buy Oz and US traffic and subdivision engineers. So
      what also tends to happen here in some areas is an inverse relationship
      where in some parts of Australia, poorer people pay less for houses at the
      outer edges of the older areas but then pay much more per dollar income per
      household member for car use and have a much poorer or almost useless public
      transport service.

      Cities and urbanising areas are very complex ... and very diverse ... almost
      defying generalised rules... but the "trends" are pretty clear...!

      Paul Mees' book "A Very Public Solution" is worth a read on this topic...

      Michael Yeates
      Brisbane Oz

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Lee Schipper" <SCHIPPER@...>
      To: <WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 4:57 AM
      Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


      > I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
      > home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
      > older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
      > of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
      > ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
      > housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
      > a function of distance from a good transit line.
      > On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
      > costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
      > long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
      > latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
      > from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
      > disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
      > Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
      > metro stop, but how much more.
      > Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
      > go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
      > by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
      > tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
      > lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
      > low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?
      >
      > In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
      > Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
      > house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
      > which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
      > day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
      > could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
      > $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
      > 5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
      > could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
      > driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
      > gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.
      >
      > That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
      > US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
      > other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
      > than one-dimensional, is it not?
      >
      > >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>
      >
      > Hi Javier,
      >
      > We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
      > http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
      > Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
      > As
      > Seen From the Air
      > or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > John Holtzclaw
      > 415-977-5534
      > John.Holtzclaw@...
      > sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
      > This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density
      >
      >
      > "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>
      >
      > 06/12/2003 01:33 AM
      >
      >
      >
      > Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
      > request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
      > special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
      > value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
      > will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
      > literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.
      >
      > Javier Pacheco
      > ITC UPLA.2 Student
      > Enschede, The Netherland
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      >
      > The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
      > Consult at: http://wTransport.org
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
      > Consult at: http://wTransport.org
      > To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
      > To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      >
      >
      >
    • Wetzel Dave
      What you have identified is not the difference in the cost of a home - but the difference in the value of the land on which the home sits. Of course you are
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 27, 2003
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        What you have identified is not the difference in the cost of a home - but
        the difference in the value of the land on which the home sits.

        Of course you are right, transport is not the only factor to give land its
        value - transport is just one of many influences.

        However, what we do know is that the individual landowner does not create
        land value. It is the community's demand for land in a specific location
        that gives land its value. If Government's collected this location benefit
        as a levy or a tax on site values, they could pay for their services and
        reduce taxes on trade and incomes.

        Let me know if any reader wants more information (appropriate web-sites
        etc.)

        Dave

        Dave Wetzel
        Vice-chair, TfL.
        Windsor House, 42-50 Victoria Street.
        London. SW1H 0TL. UK.
        Tel 020 7941 4200


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Lee Schipper [mailto:SCHIPPER@...]
        Sent: 09 August 2003 19:57
        To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


        I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
        home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
        older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
        of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
        ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
        housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
        a function of distance from a good transit line.
        On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
        costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
        long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
        latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
        from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
        disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
        Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
        metro stop, but how much more.
        Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
        go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
        by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
        tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
        lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
        low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?

        In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
        Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
        house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
        which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
        day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
        could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
        $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
        5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
        could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
        driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
        gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.

        That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
        US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
        other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
        than one-dimensional, is it not?

        >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>

        Hi Javier,

        We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
        http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
        Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
        As
        Seen From the Air
        or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice







        John Holtzclaw
        415-977-5534
        John.Holtzclaw@...
        sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
        This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density


        "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>

        06/12/2003 01:33 AM



        Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
        request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
        special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
        value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
        will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
        literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.

        Javier Pacheco
        ITC UPLA.2 Student
        Enschede, The Netherland




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        The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
        Consult at: http://wTransport.org
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      • Chris Bradshaw
        This is a very important topic to discuss here. I think it is a general rule that location costs more housing-wise, but the buyer gets benefits that, at
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 31, 2003
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          This is a very important topic to discuss here.

          I think it is a general rule that "location" costs more housing-wise,
          but the buyer gets benefits that, at least to him, appear to be equal to
          or better than the higher margin.

          "Location" refers to both being near that which is desirable, and NOT
          being near to that which is undesirable. Those marketing the suburbs
          have always emphasized the latter (crime, street traffic, noise, poor
          schools, lower-income neighbours), while treating the longer distances
          to desirable services as being very easy to overcome (owning/using one
          or more cars).

          Transit is one of the factors that are part of the positive side of
          "location," however, one does not want to have to use it for more than a
          narrow range of trips (e.g., commuting), while needing the full range of
          services within walking distance (clustered and along a fully walkable
          street).

          All of suburbia in our city has transit, but only for those residents
          limiting their use to commuting (and having regular 9-5 jobs located
          along the peak-hour routes, wanting to avoid transfers) rely on it.
          Only those living in these areas unwillingly (youth, live-in help,
          dependent seniors) will use the off-peak transit service for other kinds
          of trips.

          Most New Urbanism development is of this latter category, since they
          lack internal services and are located too far from where the true urban
          "fabric" of main streets and mixed uses ends. For that reason, they
          still have as much yard space given over to the owners' cars, but this
          space is at the rear, along a laneway, with the house pushed forward to
          the street.

          What our industry needs to do is to educate housing consumers (and
          government officials and developers) to the following:

          1. Walking is everyone's favourite mode, and the destinations which can
          be walked to is at the highest level of "location." There is growing
          awareness that, although driving is seen as superior to transit, it is
          significantly inferior to walking.

          2. Housing price is related to transportation costs; the two must be
          considered as a unit. "Location" reduces the amount of "fleet" the
          household needs, and the distance each vehicle is driven. The
          perception (and much of the reality) is that car-ownership is almost as
          high in high-location areas as poor-location areas (see also next).

          3. People facing low driving needs cannot, in today's market, buy a
          "fraction" of a car; they can only buy older cars (I have found,
          although I have seen no research, that the distance a vehicle is driven
          is in reverse proportion to its age; with age, it becomes less reliable
          and less "presentable"; also, with age, the driving costs shift from
          fixed to variable, gaining some of the costing advantages of
          carsharing). [One way to offer carsharing to those owning older cars is
          to ask, "What is better, owning all of a partial car, or owning part of
          a whole car?"]

          4. Living in high-location areas requires a smaller house and yard,
          since there are more nearby communal areas, e.g., parks, churches,
          schools, coffee shops, bars (cf.: Oldenberg, R. _The Great Good
          Place_). These provide not only out-of-house social spaces, but the
          higher density makes sharing things easier. A walkable area can also
          reduce expenses for health clubs and reduce the time adults spend
          driving other household members. With carsharing, the "fleet" can be
          reduced, further reducing the house's need to provide indoor and outdoor
          amenities and space for vehicles.

          Ironically, as consumers start getting this point, the first symptom
          will be that the location-sensitive price differential for housing will
          actually increase. The second one should be that those in low-location
          neighbourhoods will organize to "invite in" -- through a neighbourhood
          plan -- the services and employment they lack. They will need to "tame"
          their streets to attract the growing number of entrepreneurs who are
          interested in operating small-scale main-street businesses.

          Chris Bradshaw
          Vrtucar, Ottawa
        • Wetzel Dave
          Michael - Sorry it s taken me so long to come back to you. I agree with your observations. To summarise: the sale price of a site is dependent on three
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 16, 2003
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            Michael -
            Sorry it's taken me so long to come back to you.

            I agree with your observations.

            To summarise: the sale price of a site is dependent on three factors:

            1. The optimum use that the new owner can make of the site.
            2. The permitted use allowed by the community/planning authority/restrictive
            covenant etc.
            3. Any hope value that the seller can add and the purchaser is willing to
            pay.

            Improved access (public transport or new roads) adds to 1 above.

            Thus, landowners are creaming off the location value of their sites which
            they do nothing to create.

            If Governments were to tax land values to pay for transport then a virtuous
            circle is created.
            The tax would need to be an annual levy on the rental value of each site.
            The value would be assessed on the optimum permitted use of the site
            ignoring the value of buildings or improvements.
            Thus, people receiving the financial benefit of a valuable location make a
            contribution to the rest of the community.
            Unlike other taxes, a land value tax is cheap to collect and difficult to
            avoid.
            Owners will make better use of their sites and society will avoid urban
            sprawl.
            The property cycle will be evened out.

            Therefor in your second example, the land tax on the owners of land occupied
            by the poorer people living out of town will be less.
            However, if a new motorway or mass transit is built, reducing their
            transport costs, then both the land value, and the land tax would increase.
            If this location benefit value is not taxed, then landowners will collect
            the benefit as they increase their rents to poor people after their
            transport costs have been reduced.

            Happy to supply more information if required.

            Dave

            Dave Wetzel
            Vice-Chair
            Transport for London
            42-50 Victoria Street. London.
            SW1H 0TL. UK

            Tel: 020 7941 4200


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Michael Yeates [mailto:michaelm@...]
            Sent: 25 August 2003 14:07
            To: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


            There is also more to this ... using some Australian info.

            1. Often the price of a site per se reflects not only the current but also
            any potential development rights so people may be buying both a current
            utility as well as a future redevelopment option ... ie in the second case,
            gaining a speculative windfall on the greater cost achieveable from the land
            value only without any betterment tax ... incidentally in doing so, the
            complete "cost" of the existing building changes from being an asset to a
            liability or cost simply on that decision whether to redevelop or not.

            2. The other issue is the view that good public transport and walking and
            cycling is not necessarily linked to housing and population density ie that
            good other-than-car alternatives can be provided at suburban densities ... I
            would suggest that the reason that these facilities seem expensive is that
            roads and the real full costs thereof are grossly underpriced eg one is the
            cost impacts of children no longer able or allowed to walk or cycle to
            school but how do we price the social and educational disbenefits? It does
            however require a different type of suburban road network to that
            traditionally designed buy Oz and US traffic and subdivision engineers. So
            what also tends to happen here in some areas is an inverse relationship
            where in some parts of Australia, poorer people pay less for houses at the
            outer edges of the older areas but then pay much more per dollar income per
            household member for car use and have a much poorer or almost useless public
            transport service.

            Cities and urbanising areas are very complex ... and very diverse ... almost
            defying generalised rules... but the "trends" are pretty clear...!

            Paul Mees' book "A Very Public Solution" is worth a read on this topic...

            Michael Yeates
            Brisbane Oz

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Lee Schipper" <SCHIPPER@...>
            To: <WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 4:57 AM
            Subject: Re: [WorldTransport] About transport impacts over urban land


            > I think the issue is the other way around: How much does a given size
            > home cost in a dense neighborhood, in a sprawling neighborhood, in an
            > older development, in a newer development, as a function of the location
            > of that neighborhood, its local population density, its jobs to housing
            > ratio etc? Then, if good transit service is establish, how much do
            > housing costs rise (if at all); conversely, how do housing costs vary as
            > a function of distance from a good transit line.
            > On a very practical basis, 150 sq meters in Georgetown, Washington DC
            > costs about twice to three times what it costs i Cleveland Park (two
            > long metro stops away) and four times what it costs in Tenley town. The
            > latter two actually have metro stops, Georgetown is 300 to 2000 meters
            > from the nearest Metro station (buses in DC are a slow burning
            > disaster). Housing close in to the suburb of Bethesda, which has good
            > Metro and bus service, costs more than housing farther from the main
            > metro stop, but how much more.
            > Could it simply be that consumers figured out that the farther out you
            > go, the more land and home you get for a unit of investment, and, aided
            > by US policies that encourage borrowing for home ownership, make a
            > tradeoff of a little more in cheap fuel and insurance in exchange for a
            > lot more land? Could it also be that car insurance is cheaper in the
            > low-density suburbs than it is in the higher density city core (it is)?
            >
            > In the end I think we paid $50K extra to be two blocks from Cleveland
            > Park Metro; lots of options 500-2000 meters farther away offerred more
            > house for less money. Since I cycle to work those extra 2000 meters,
            > which would have been a long uphill grind, would have been a real ordeal
            > day after day. But the hill I do have to climb is worth it, since I
            > could not afford to live in Georgetown (where I rented) and pay around
            > $1mn for a large three bedroom home rather than $780K for a much larger
            > 5bdr home (yes, with the study etc all the home is filled up already). I
            > could have lived i the farther burbs for half as much, had a larger lot,
            > driven or taken public transport 45 minutes each way, paid to go to a
            > gym rather than cycled.. You all get my drift.
            >
            > That may be the trade off. Why do the various reports on sprawl in the
            > US focus only on transport costs and fuel, but consistently omit all the
            > other characteristics AND COSTS of residential location? Life is more
            > than one-dimensional, is it not?
            >
            > >>> john.holtzclaw@... 08/01/03 05:08PM >>>
            >
            > Hi Javier,
            >
            > We have information on that in the U.S. on our website,
            > http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
            > Go to Transportation; then Articles and Research; then Smart Growth --
            > As
            > Seen From the Air
            > or How Compact Neighborhoods Affect Modal Choice
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > John Holtzclaw
            > 415-977-5534
            > John.Holtzclaw@...
            > sprawl and transportation action -- http://www.SierraClub.org/sprawl
            > This View of Density -- www.sflcv.org/density
            >
            >
            > "Javier Pacheco Raguz" <jpraguz@...>
            >
            > 06/12/2003 01:33 AM
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello everybody, I am glad to meet you all. I would like to make a
            > request for information about the impacts of transportation (with
            > special focus on mass transit systems) over urban land in terms of
            > value, density, pollution, etc. I am doing research about it and I
            > will be thankful if somebody can provide me some tips about related
            > literature. Thanks in advance for your kind help.
            >
            > Javier Pacheco
            > ITC UPLA.2 Student
            > Enschede, The Netherland
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            >
            > The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
            > Consult at: http://wTransport.org
            > To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
            > To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
            > Consult at: http://wTransport.org
            > To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
            > To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >




            The Journal of World Transport Policy and Practice
            Consult at: http://wTransport.org
            To post message to group: WorldTransport@yahoogroups.com
            To subscribe: WorldTransport-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            To unsubscribe: WorldTransport-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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            ***********************************************************************************
            The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London hereby exclude any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this email and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.

            If you have received this email in error please notify postmaster@....

            This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses.
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